Dota 2 Noob Hate

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#51 Edited by TheHT (11767 posts) -

@zeforgotten said:

@theht: Never said there was anything wrong with it, but more and more people jump in to games to learn.

That's just how life is. I just don't see the big issue with a person deciding to say "hey, this is how you do it" rather than go "OMG! I'm gonna go kill your mother while I rape your sisters and watch cartoon network and smoke weed you fucking asshole my whole life is built around this game you fucking suck you fucking stupid ass retard omg, what the fuck seriously. You're costing us the game I mean come on".. etc etc.

Oddly enough if you think about it, this self-proclaimed pro is probably the one costing the team the game since he's the player not doing his job wasting his time in chat while I might not be doing well but at least I'm doing better than Mr. "I'm just gonna write in chat for 30 minutes to throw profanities at you, have at ye!"

Wait a minute. You're the one that said "that's not how gaming works", referring to reading up on a game to learn how to play, right?

I don't have an issue with people offering help over insults. But hey man, you wanna talk about how life is, people can be assholes.

Online
#52 Edited by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -

@theht: No I meant the attitude of "Fuck off, just go read up on it, I'm superior to you, mortal" instead of just saying "Hi? Oh you're new, well here's the basics.. Oh you know how to click your mouse? Well there's the basics. Have fun, any questions, just ask" <- That's not how gaming works, people should be friendly, like in the old days. Hell, I learned most of my Starcraft-playing-"skills" from playing against people way better than me, helping me out and stuff. Then they go off to become bigshot SC2 players and win money and don't share a single dollar with me. THAT ONE WIN WAS ME! I DESERVE A DOLLAR! DANG IT!

#53 Posted by sleepyheadstyle (8 posts) -

Threads like this is disheartening, I would really like to go into to Dota 2 and try something new. But this caustic community bullshit is just that, bullshit. These are going to be the same fucking people that complain when Valve or whatever company shuts down their game because nobody is playing it and the growth isn't there to make any money off of it. I've had beta keys for this game for over a year, but the steep learning curve factored in with the possibility of asshats make me go nah, fuck it. I'll play something else. The daily dota and podcast talk has really got me interested in it. But he's got friends to play with. I don't really and fending for yourself in what feels like a sea of asshats isn't something that I feel comfortable.

#54 Edited by granthinds (11 posts) -

@cameron: Thank you. Winning isn't the reason I play Dota. I play Dota cause it's fun to play. There are fun moments other than winning. I love being in a party on party chat with my friends. I like to think of it as Sunday Football on a nearby field.

#55 Posted by Vuud (2035 posts) -

Have you guys really not realized yet that whenever anything becomes popular on the internet it invariably attracts a large number of huge assholes? People get angry about you not playing the video game right or whatever because they are huge assholes.

#56 Posted by MachoFantastico (4886 posts) -

Right now I'm only playing co-op matches with bots so I haven't yet mixed it with public MM but I know enough about the communities of League and Dota to know what to expect. I don't really get it to be honest, why some have to be so anti-new players to Dota.. surely that's a positive thing? Have to say, so far my time in the co-op matches as been rather pleasant, but that's most likely due to the fact that they're the same level as me. That said, I have played with some who clearly haven't played one match of Dota 2 let alone being seen as a 'noob' to the game. Be nice, it doesn't cost a damn thing.

LoL on the other hand, that was a crap-show for me. One of the worst gaming experiences I've had online. Played a total of five matches with a friend and the community was simply awful, rude, racist and downright disgusting at times. I'm sure there are many good players in LoL, I sadly never met one when I played. Dota 2 as been a better experience so far and as you said, Valve have done a good job of at least trying to control the community with some of it's tools. Really it's exactly like the fighting game community, where the established like it the way it is, it's their very own special game and they hate new players coming in and trying to enjoy it for themselves.

#57 Posted by Ravelle (1402 posts) -

I've been playing DOTA2 for a while now and I have to say that I haven't been in a team with people that abused newbies, mostly because matchmaking matches you up with people of the same level but I mostly play Giantbomb inhouses or with friends which makes the game so much more enjoyable.

#58 Posted by MrCaptain (367 posts) -

I never get any hate and im a newb, I won like 3 games. Threads like this boost my confidence, or maybe I'm just lucky?

Im pretty polite myself when I play so maybe thats why I keep getting compliments

#59 Edited by supamon (1334 posts) -

Almost 500 hours and still very little insults or noobs. There's trash talking sometimes but that's all in good fun and the moment the game ends it's all forgotten. Why anyone seems so bothered by people on the internet calling you out on your bad plays baffles me. It's the internet, there will be a few bad eggs. Instead of complaining about it why not go read up/practise/ask someone to mentor you so that you'll be a better player. If you are a better player you wouldn't be called out on your shit.

Just earlier today I had a game where another fella and me had to communicate with 3 other guys who didn't speak proper english. We won that game and we were still joking around with each other, making fun of ourselves. Dota can be great fun, focus on the good rather than the bad.

#60 Posted by Lively (311 posts) -

Some people just need to grow a thicker skin. Did getting made fun of in high school make you just stay home all day and not interact at all?

The fact is that there are assholes everywhere, and if you want to enjoy the game you have to put up with a few of them. For me, at least, the rewards of Dota far outweigh the negatives, and if you don't feel that way there are plenty of alternative distractions.

#61 Edited by MarekkPie (73 posts) -

"Man up and take it" is not really a good argument. Valve doesn't want that behavior in their game; they have a whole reporting system and low priority queues in place to try and weed out those intolerable people. Not to mention a commendation system to try and promote people who do behave and act civilized.

#62 Edited by Lively (311 posts) -

@marekkpie: And I hope that Valve's efforts to help improve the community work. I'm just seeing a lot of replies from people that would otherwise love this game stay away from it because of a few bad apples; I think if they can just get over the initial learning curve (and the initial stay in the low-MMR pool) the experience gets a lot better.

#63 Posted by Slag (4846 posts) -

@granthinds: @twigger89: @rebgav:

There's two basic conflicting viewpoints here that both have some validity

  • Veteran competitive players understandably want high adrenaline matches with focused high quality play.
  • New and casual players want to just have fun in a welcoming environment.

Neither wants to play the other. And Neither way to play the game is wrong despite what either camp says. Nor should either have to alter the way they play to suit the other.

It is annoying to me that after what Ten years (or so?) That the DotA guys still haven't fixed this basic essential matchmaking problem that they have to, have to know exists. I know IceFrog and co is focused on getting all the old heroes into the new game, but if they fixed the matchmaking I really believe DotA 2 would explode in popularity in a way we've never seen a game explode.

I don't care if Elder Titan takes another year to get in, make the matchmaking work better so that the community is better!

#64 Posted by ajamafalous (12146 posts) -

@slag said:

@granthinds: @twigger89: @rebgav:

There's two basic conflicting viewpoints here that both have some validity

  • Veteran competitive players understandably want high adrenaline matches with focused high quality play.
  • New and casual players want to just have fun in a welcoming environment.

Neither wants to play the other. And Neither way to play the game is wrong despite what either camp says. Nor should either have to alter the way they play to suit the other.

It is annoying to me that after what Ten years (or so?) That the DotA guys still haven't fixed this basic essential matchmaking problem that they have to, have to know exists. I know IceFrog and co is focused on getting all the old heroes into the new game, but if they fixed the matchmaking I really believe DotA 2 would explode in popularity in a way we've never seen a game explode.

I don't care if Elder Titan takes another year to get in, make the matchmaking work better so that the community is better!

You might not care, but everyone else cares. I want to see all current heroes in the game first before they start spending a bunch of manpower developing a new matchmaking system.

#65 Posted by Slag (4846 posts) -

@ajamafalous said:

You might not care, but everyone else cares. I want to see all current heroes in the game first before they start spending a bunch of manpower developing a new matchmaking system.

alright I'll bite. Why?

Seems to me the heroes are mostly back now and the game is certainly playable. DotA to my recollection always has had a hero count in flux anyway. I'd prefer them all to be back myself, I just don't think that aspect of the game is that broken.

But a matchmaking system that works better fix seems to me like it solve a ton of the whining we hear over and over and over. Might help the game's rep too.

#66 Edited by ajamafalous (12146 posts) -

@slag said:

@ajamafalous said:

You might not care, but everyone else cares. I want to see all current heroes in the game first before they start spending a bunch of manpower developing a new matchmaking system.

alright I'll bite. Why?

Seems to me the heroes are mostly back now and the game is certainly playable. DotA to my recollection always has had a hero count in flux anyway. I'd prefer them all to be back myself, I just don't think that aspect of the game is that broken.

But a matchmaking system that works better fix seems to me like it solve a ton of the whining we hear over and over and over. Might help the game's rep too.

The people who remember the heroes that are still missing (e.g. Terrorblade, Techies, Abaddon, etc.) are the people who have been playing since WC3 (myself included, obviously), where there was no matchmaking system to speak of. They aren't the ones whining about the matchmaking system matching them up with 'mean' people because they've been dealing with that kind of behavior for a decade.

#67 Posted by MAGZine (438 posts) -

@ajamafalous: i'm fine if techies never is ported to dota 2.

#68 Edited by ajamafalous (12146 posts) -

@magzine said:

@ajamafalous: i'm fine if techies never is ported to dota 2.

fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck thattttttttttt.

#69 Posted by TobbRobb (4840 posts) -

@ajamafalous: Oh god I forgot Techies existed. As far as I'm concerned that's the last hero they add. Q.Q

#70 Edited by MAGZine (438 posts) -
#71 Posted by supamon (1334 posts) -

@magzine said:

@ajamafalous: i'm fine if techies never is ported to dota 2.

Awww why? Techie just wanna hug you to death <3

#72 Posted by ajamafalous (12146 posts) -

@tobbrobb said:

@ajamafalous: Oh god I forgot Techies existed. As far as I'm concerned that's the last hero they add. Q.Q

Yeah, that's what I've been telling my friends for about a year now. I think that, now that they've saved him for this long, there's no way he isn't the very last of the current heroes released.

#73 Posted by granthinds (11 posts) -
@slag said:

@granthinds: @twigger89: @rebgav:

There's two basic conflicting viewpoints here that both have some validity

  • Veteran competitive players understandably want high adrenaline matches with focused high quality play.
  • New and casual players want to just have fun in a welcoming environment.

Neither wants to play the other. And Neither way to play the game is wrong despite what either camp says. Nor should either have to alter the way they play to suit the other.

It is annoying to me that after what Ten years (or so?) That the DotA guys still haven't fixed this basic essential matchmaking problem that they have to, have to know exists. I know IceFrog and co is focused on getting all the old heroes into the new game, but if they fixed the matchmaking I really believe DotA 2 would explode in popularity in a way we've never seen a game explode.

I don't care if Elder Titan takes another year to get in, make the matchmaking work better so that the community is better!

I can get behind this.

#74 Posted by EXTomar (4940 posts) -

I'm unsure what the issue is. If you are doing a solo-random match, the 9 other players are probably people you will never run into again. What do you care if they don't what you did in game? If they are doing a solo-random then they need to accept the fact the team is going have various skill levels and goals. "Yelling" or ranting about how terrible everyone else is (side note: funny how it is never their fault for picking a hero that doesn't fit the team comp or poorly executes in critical moments) isn't going to change their minds and start taking the game more seriously.

I get disappointed when I see this behavior even in stuff like "The Daily Dota" where it is clear these guys are not professional yet chat can go on and on and on about how someone is going for the wrong items or doing the wrong thing in phases of play while I am giggling at what they are talking about and what they did manage to pull off. I don't watch these matches to see high level play nor do I expect that from any one who I bump into while doing pub randoms. Basically if a player really believes they are a much higher level of play than the "unwashed masses" they probably wouldn't bother with "Find a Match".

#75 Edited by golguin (4040 posts) -

I technically play the "wrong way" because I only play as Queen of Pain. In 2 of my last 3 MM pub games I went something like 13-15 kills/ 0 deaths/ 10-15 assists.

People constantly ask how I can only play a single hero when there are so many to choose from. I always tell them that I'm only interesting in playing as QOP because she's the closes thing I have to the Demon Hunter from Diablo 3 and the Vanquisher from Torchlight. I only played a single class in those games too.

#76 Edited by jimmyfenix (3859 posts) -

Fuck dota 2 it just sounds vile.

#77 Posted by twigger89 (283 posts) -

@slag: @ajamafalous: Dota is my go to game at this point and I'd much rather have a better match making system than a new hero at this point. One new hero isn't going to revolutionize the game or drastically increase my enjoyment of it, but a better matchmaking system will make the game MUCH less frustrating to play.

@golguin: That's not playing the wrong way, that's playing to your strengths. Granted if you play game modes other than all pick you will have to branch out but if that's how you enjoy playing and if you are a positive contribution to your team, rock on man.

In my experience, it's not the Dota2 know-it-alls that are most frustrating, it's the dota2 noobies. Last night I was playing a game with an enigma who did nothing but farm the jungle for 20 minutes to get his blink dagger. I asked him to help push down towers and he promptly ignored me. After he got his blink dagger, he would at least fight with us but he refused to use his dagger to initiate the fights (he was by far the best initiator we had) and he seemed to only use his ulti when the rest of our team was away or dead. After we asked him to initiate and make better use of his ulti (in a polite manner, mind you) he called us try hard fags and then farmed in the jungle for the rest of the game. It was at this point I wanted to strangle this dude, so instead I used one of my precious reports on him and just mentally accepted the game as a loss.

I think outsiders assume only the 'good' players are the dicks, but in my experience it's more often defensive shitty players who are overly hostile and antagonistic. These people want no advice regardless of how politely you frame it, think they have every right to actively hurt the team because 'it's just a game dude' and are generally a way of a player slot. I'd much rather we get rid of those kinds of players than the asshole good players, at least those guys you can just mute them and still have them contribute to the team.

#78 Posted by ajamafalous (12146 posts) -

@slag: @ajamafalous: Dota is my go to game at this point and I'd much rather have a better match making system than a new hero at this point. One new hero isn't going to revolutionize the game or drastically increase my enjoyment of it, but a better matchmaking system will make the game MUCH less frustrating to play.

@golguin: That's not playing the wrong way, that's playing to your strengths. Granted if you play game modes other than all pick you will have to branch out but if that's how you enjoy playing and if you are a positive contribution to your team, rock on man.

In my experience, it's not the Dota2 know-it-alls that are most frustrating, it's the dota2 noobies. Last night I was playing a game with an enigma who did nothing but farm the jungle for 20 minutes to get his blink dagger. I asked him to help push down towers and he promptly ignored me. After he got his blink dagger, he would at least fight with us but he refused to use his dagger to initiate the fights (he was by far the best initiator we had) and he seemed to only use his ulti when the rest of our team was away or dead. After we asked him to initiate and make better use of his ulti (in a polite manner, mind you) he called us try hard fags and then farmed in the jungle for the rest of the game. It was at this point I wanted to strangle this dude, so instead I used one of my precious reports on him and just mentally accepted the game as a loss.

I think outsiders assume only the 'good' players are the dicks, but in my experience it's more often defensive shitty players who are overly hostile and antagonistic. These people want no advice regardless of how politely you frame it, think they have every right to actively hurt the team because 'it's just a game dude' and are generally a way of a player slot. I'd much rather we get rid of those kinds of players than the asshole good players, at least those guys you can just mute them and still have them contribute to the team.

That's fine if you feel that way, but I don't and none of my friends do either. A new 'better' matchmaking system means nothing to me because, as I said earlier, there wasn't any matchmaking at all in WC3 DotA. Anyone who played then is already used to bad players, plenty of insults, and most games being a stomp. I've been waiting two years now for some of my favorite heroes that still haven't been ported over (Techies, Abaddon, Pit Lord) and I'm frankly astonished that Terrorblade isn't in the game yet, considering he was one of the top 5 most played and iconic heroes from WC3 DotA. It's a running gag between my friends and I that once every week or two when I start up Dota I'll get a Steam message from one of them that says "is techies in the game yet so I can start playing again?"

Despite what you might feel, there are plenty of people out there that identify with a favorite hero that still isn't in the game yet. I mean, hell, you responded to a prime example of that: golguin doesn't want to play anything but QoP. Just like him, I have friends that only want to play Techies.

At the beginning of this year, I predicted that Valve would be shooting to have everyone in the game by the time TI3 rolled around, but they went a couple long stretches without releasing anyone and haven't doubled/tripled up like they were last year, so that's clearly not going to happen. If they stick to their 2-4 week release schedule, though, they'll have everyone out by the end of the year. Just let them handle that first before we start raising pitchforks about a new matchmaking system when there are still players out there who feel alienated because their favorite hero still hasn't been ported yet.

#79 Posted by twigger89 (283 posts) -

@ajamafalous: My point is I think it would be more beneficial for the dota2 community as a whole if the matchmaking system was improved, and that I believe that should be their main priority. I can understand that people have certain favorite heroes they want to play (and I enjoy playing new heroes, particularly if they have new play styles than the available heroes) but in the grand scheme of things a couple of new heroes won't make or break the game, but a faulty match making system will destroy an otherwise fun game (note I'm not saying the dota2 match making system is broken, just making a point).

#80 Edited by EXTomar (4940 posts) -

@jimmyfenix said:

Fuck dota 2 it just sounds vile.

Meh, those type of players are found in all games. No one complains about them in CoD games because the matches turn over so fast.

As for Match Making I'm not sure what is missing let alone what more would be done beyond anti-griefing tools. If I had a feature request I would love for them have Single/Double Elimination Tournaments tools in the game so any group could set them up, schedule games, and record progress and announce winners.

#81 Posted by Slag (4846 posts) -

The people who remember the heroes that are still missing (e.g. Terrorblade, Techies, Abaddon, etc.) are the people who have been playing since WC3 (myself included, obviously), where there was no matchmaking system to speak of. They aren't the ones whining about the matchmaking system matching them up with 'mean' people because they've been dealing with that kind of behavior for a decade.

That's fine if you feel that way, but I don't and none of my friends do either. A new 'better' matchmaking system means nothing to me because, as I said earlier, there wasn't any matchmaking at all in WC3 DotA. Anyone who played then is already used to bad players, plenty of insults, and most games being a stomp. I've been waiting two years now for some of my favorite heroes that still haven't been ported over (Techies, Abaddon, Pit Lord) and I'm frankly astonished that Terrorblade isn't in the game yet, considering he was one of the top 5 most played and iconic heroes from WC3 DotA. It's a running gag between my friends and I that once every week or two when I start up Dota I'll get a Steam message from one of them that says "is techies in the game yet so I can start playing again?"

Just like him, I have friends that only want to play Techies.

....Just let them handle that first before we start raising pitchforks about a new matchmaking system when there are still players out there who feel alienated because their favorite hero still hasn't been ported yet.

Well if you mained Terrorblade, I certainly understand why you feel differently. You're right, it is very strange he hasn't made it into DOTA 2 yet. Techies I get from a balance standpoint why they are a straggler, it might be hard to tweak them just right for gameplay. But Terrorblade was really popular and his skills don't seem like ones that would be that hard to balance.

I think where we differ is what we view as most important to the game. You seem to be of the mindset that they need to cater to the old Dota Allstars crowd.

To me game communities cycle through players all the time and I figure most of those players are probably already gone. So it's more important in my mind to leave a good impression on new players so the community continually replenishes talent and interest. In terms of retaining old and new players, few things turn players off a game as fast as a bad multiplayer experience too. So that's why matchmaking I think is more important. Especially now the hero count is above what 40?

It didn't bother me as much back in the Wc3: FT days, because I knew they didn't have a better way to handle it given they were limited by Blizzard's game. But now on their platform I find it shocking this problem still exists to this degree. Especially when you look at the various multiplayer options they added, like find a co-op match vs bots.

You've got friends who won't play because their hero is not in the game yet, I've got friends who won't play anymore at all because they don't want to deal with jerks.

I think if you break down the numbers though, there are far more players having issues with the game related to matchmaking quirks as opposed to Pit Lord be missing. A lot of the newer players I suspect probably don't even realize he and Abaddon etc etc is not there.

#82 Posted by ajamafalous (12146 posts) -

@slag said:

@ajamafalous said:

The people who remember the heroes that are still missing (e.g. Terrorblade, Techies, Abaddon, etc.) are the people who have been playing since WC3 (myself included, obviously), where there was no matchmaking system to speak of. They aren't the ones whining about the matchmaking system matching them up with 'mean' people because they've been dealing with that kind of behavior for a decade.

@ajamafalous said:

That's fine if you feel that way, but I don't and none of my friends do either. A new 'better' matchmaking system means nothing to me because, as I said earlier, there wasn't any matchmaking at all in WC3 DotA. Anyone who played then is already used to bad players, plenty of insults, and most games being a stomp. I've been waiting two years now for some of my favorite heroes that still haven't been ported over (Techies, Abaddon, Pit Lord) and I'm frankly astonished that Terrorblade isn't in the game yet, considering he was one of the top 5 most played and iconic heroes from WC3 DotA. It's a running gag between my friends and I that once every week or two when I start up Dota I'll get a Steam message from one of them that says "is techies in the game yet so I can start playing again?"

Just like him, I have friends that only want to play Techies.

....Just let them handle that first before we start raising pitchforks about a new matchmaking system when there are still players out there who feel alienated because their favorite hero still hasn't been ported yet.

Well if you mained Terrorblade, I certainly understand why you feel differently. You're right, it is very strange he hasn't made it into DOTA 2 yet. Techies I get from a balance standpoint why they are a straggler, it might be hard to tweak them just right for gameplay. But Terrorblade was really popular and his skills don't seem like ones that would be that hard to balance.

I think where we differ is what we view as most important to the game. You seem to be of the mindset that they need to cater to the old Dota Allstars crowd.

To me game communities cycle through players all the time and I figure most of those players are probably already gone. So it's more important in my mind to leave a good impression on new players so the community continually replenishes talent and interest. In terms of retaining old and new players, few things turn players off a game as fast as a bad multiplayer experience too. So that's why matchmaking I think is more important. Especially now the hero count is above what 40?

It didn't bother me as much back in the Wc3: FT days, because I knew they didn't have a better way to handle it given they were limited by Blizzard's game. But now on their platform I find it shocking this problem still exists to this degree. Especially when you look at the various multiplayer options they added, like find a co-op match vs bots.

You've got friends who won't play because their hero is not in the game yet, I've got friends who won't play anymore at all because they don't want to deal with jerks.

I think if you break down the numbers though, there are far more players having issues with the game related to matchmaking quirks as opposed to Pit Lord be missing. A lot of the newer players I suspect probably don't even realize he and Abaddon etc etc is not there.

Yeah, you're right that I'd rather have them cater to the old guard because that's where I lie. I don't think those people have moved on, though. Dota is such a unique experience that I'm not sure where they would've gone. I'd imagine that most people who were way into WC3 DotA are either a) still playing it, b) switched to HoN when it came out (me), or c) have transitioned to Dota 2 (also me). I'm a firm believer in supporting your old fans that got you where you were over catering to the new ones and alienating the old (see cases like ME2, DA2, etc.).

I have never and will never understand the people that complain about online multiplayer experiences being terrible because someone was insulting or yelling at them. This happens in literally every game, so how is it any different in Dota? Either a) it doesn't bother you in other games, so it shouldn't bother you in Dota, or b) it bothers you so much that you avoid multiplayer games, so why would you expect Dota to be any different? If you're somewhere in the middle, the mute and report functions are both fully operational and you shouldn't have any issues muting the odd jerk that you might come across. I will simply never understand anyone taking internet insults seriously when you're nearly guaranteed to never run into that person ever again.

What would they even do? Reports already work surprisingly well (I reported one person yesterday, for example, and got the 'thanks for reporting' message today when I logged on. This is the case for about 75% of my reports) to mute people who are causing problems. I think that banning them from the game is far too harsh a punishment, and the game is free, anyway; they'll make a new Steam account without any issue. So what's left to do?

In my eyes, they'll have plenty of time to tweak the matchmaking once they get the full current roster in the game. Again, it's going to be a handful of months at most. I just don't want them to stop what they're doing for six months to work on overhauling the matchmaking system while I'm left to continue waiting for the heroes I've already been waiting a year and a half for.

#83 Posted by Slag (4846 posts) -

Yeah, you're right that I'd rather have them cater to the old guard because that's where I lie. I don't think those people have moved on, though. Dota is such a unique experience that I'm not sure where they would've gone. I'd imagine that most people who were way into WC3 DotA are either a) still playing it, b) switched to HoN when it came out (me), or c) have transitioned to Dota 2 (also me). I'm a firm believer in supporting your old fans that got you where you were over catering to the new ones and alienating the old (see cases like ME2, DA2, etc.).

I have never and will never understand the people that complain about online multiplayer experiences being terrible because someone was insulting or yelling at them. This happens in literally every game, so how is it any different in Dota? Either a) it doesn't bother you in other games, so it shouldn't bother you in Dota, or b) it bothers you so much that you avoid multiplayer games, so why would you expect Dota to be any different? If you're somewhere in the middle, the mute and report functions are both fully operational and you shouldn't have any issues muting the odd jerk that you might come across. I will simply never understand anyone taking internet insults seriously when you're nearly guaranteed to never run into that person ever again.

What would they even do? Reports already work surprisingly well (I reported one person yesterday, for example, and got the 'thanks for reporting' message today when I logged on. This is the case for about 75% of my reports) to mute people who are causing problems. I think that banning them from the game is far too harsh a punishment, and the game is free, anyway; they'll make a new Steam account without any issue. So what's left to do?

In my eyes, they'll have plenty of time to tweak the matchmaking once they get the full current roster in the game. Again, it's going to be a handful of months at most. I just don't want them to stop what they're doing for six months to work on overhauling the matchmaking system while I'm left to continue waiting for the heroes I've already been waiting a year and a half for.

DotA certainly has a fanbase that is unusually engaged. But I suspect only 25%~ at most of active DOTA 2 players now played the Dota mod actively in 2009. And even fewer from back in the Guinsoo days, and even fewer from the Aeon of Strife days. It's just natural progression to have that kind of turnover, and I suspect that retained number (whatever it actually is) is way higher than just about any other game. You're right, DotA/DOTA 2 really is special in that regard. Really nothing else has persisted like DotA for basically a decade save for WoW (which isn't really the same at all) and DotA wasn't even it's own standalone game until relatively recently.

I don't have hard numbers but it would be interesting to know what % of DOTA 2 players do come from the old mod community.

I think ME2 and DA2 were completely different situations. A better matchmaking system would not fundamentally change how the game is played. It would just change who you play. Bioware tinkered with the core mechanics of their games.

I do think people feel the same way about other multiplayer games as well. I hear it all the time from friends, acquaintances and around the web that they won't go on Xbox Live anymore for Halo, CoD etc. Fwiw I think Xbox Live is far more toxic than DotA, but maybe that's just me. I don't think that's a good thing and I think gaming as a whole will benefit if there is a better system.

Players such as yourself who don't mind it now will benefit, because multiplayer communities will be deeper allowing the communities to last longer. And players who have trepidation about playing online now, won't fear it as much. I don't hold out much hope for Xbox Live but I figure DOTA has a better chance since people are so invested in it.

The Difference in why people sweat it in more about DOTA 2 is the perceived stakes. I think the stakes feel higher to inexperienced people in DOTA because it is such a team based game. It's one thing if you suck a lot of people can handle that pretty easily, it's another if your sucking caused your team to lose. I don't think it's the opponent abuse that bothers people as much as the prospect of letting your team down and getting abuse from your own teammates. That can be really intimating to a lot of new players. Most of the new players I've played with don't want to be bad, so they feel a ton of pressure when playing.

I don't claim to have the answers on how to fix matchmaking, I just have confidence that it can be improved and the DOTA team has the kind of people who can figure it out. I think even a simple choice for casual play and ladder play, would go a long long way to making things better. Right now the only real option for casual play is basically to play with bots. It would keep honest newbs out of the deep end anyway. That would be something. Like you I don't think banning does much good. I think encouraging the right behavior an encouraging the right situations will work better than trying to punish the wrong.

But it's kind of a moot point, there's no evidence they are working on this, but we do know that they are finishing the old heroes. So you'll likely get your wish anyway.

#84 Edited by danmcn12 (86 posts) -

@marekkpie said:

"Man up and take it" is not really a good argument. Valve doesn't want that behavior in their game; they have a whole reporting system and low priority queues in place to try and weed out those intolerable people. Not to mention a commendation system to try and promote people who do behave and act civilized.

Well, the big thing is their matchmaking. I never play with newbies anymore meaning I never get upset when a new player wrecks my 40 minute game. As you go higher flaming really happens less and less. The worst part is the first 100-200 games when you are stuck in low levels with people who stink but think they could replace Burning.

However the flaming of new players drives off people who would play it casually or forces them to learn how to play, which is bad for Valve but really good for the community. It's annoying but these types of games kind of need it.

#85 Posted by Nictel (2433 posts) -

It seems worse on random draw, which is strange as chances are higher there to get a hero you're not used to than anywhere else.

#86 Posted by TooSweet (398 posts) -

I still haven't done a pub game. Still learning. There is so much to get. I'm not too worried about the community. Fuck any person that can't handle me playing badly. And more than likely I'm going to play badly in the beginning. I'll do my best not to screw up and I have been practicing but I will admit have a long way to go before my first pub game. I have had friends who even tried to talk me into not playing and go LoL intstead. But for some reason this is the one I want to get into.

#87 Posted by Iodine (551 posts) -

As a new player who is getting dragged up by my friends who are around Brad's skill level, so I am learning the Mute button is really crucial. Usually just asking up front at the match what I should do helps, but dicks will be dicks, and sometimes beyond the terrible phrasing there is a kernel of truth to it, not so much about how you cannot contribute to society and the sleeping with family members part, but the thing that got them angry in the first place.

#88 Posted by Brad (3332 posts) -

@cameron: Thank you. Winning isn't the reason I play Dota. I play Dota cause it's fun to play. There are fun moments other than winning. I love being in a party on party chat with my friends. I like to think of it as Sunday Football on a nearby field.

I keep trying to tell my girlfriend that this is half the reason I play Dota so much, because it's a fun social experience without having to go out. She isn't buying it.

Staff
#89 Edited by Sanity (1944 posts) -

Id love to get into Dota but the learning curve and general hostility of the community have always turned me off. I played LoL for a bit and was so-so at it and had some good matches but my god i can't stand the people who will rip into you while your trying to learn. Why they can't just add a new player queue is beyond me. Also, games like this where your commited to your monitor for the length of the match make you sound like a crazy person when you have to tell people your busy while your playing a game IRL.

Raiding in wow has a similar community and mindset imo, big reason i got out of that.

#90 Posted by EXTomar (4940 posts) -

And just like WoW it really takes a group of people you are comfortable with playing with to really maximize enjoyment. If you find a team that acts like Brad's teams on "The Daily Dota" WoW raiding is amazing.

#91 Edited by MarekkPie (73 posts) -

@danmcn12: People will learn to play and make it to the top level regardless of whether there is flaming in the low brackets. That's the point of matchmaking. Flaming "works" when there is no matchmaking, because those who do want to play casually and don't care to follow the metagame will say "Fuck it!" and move on, leaving only the dedicated and, therefore by proxy, skilled to play. But since there already is a filtering system in the form of matchmaking, flaming really serves no purpose.

Calling flaming "really good for the community" is insane. That goes with the assumption that if you don't want to wade through bullshit, you must also not have the necessary skills to play the game. We aren't talking about Van Gogh suffering for his art here, we're talking about a video game.

Purge says this often during his videos (even though I cannot find where he gets this statistic), but about 90% of Dota 2 players are in the Normal MMR. Meaning 90% of people have to deal with the "casuals", the "flamers", the "feeders", etc. And if 90% of the people playing Dota 2 have to deal with that nonsense, Valve needs to keep doing what they are doing, and not just say "Get better, wade through, and player attitudes will finally change."

#92 Edited by ajamafalous (12146 posts) -

@brad said:

@granthinds said:

@cameron: Thank you. Winning isn't the reason I play Dota. I play Dota cause it's fun to play. There are fun moments other than winning. I love being in a party on party chat with my friends. I like to think of it as Sunday Football on a nearby field.

I keep trying to tell my girlfriend that this is half the reason I play Dota so much, because it's a fun social experience without having to go out. She isn't buying it.

Sounds like what I used to tell my parents when I was in middle school.

"But Dad, I'm talking to my friends online! I don't need to go down the street to see them!"

#93 Edited by ajamafalous (12146 posts) -

@marekkpie said:

@danmcn12: People will learn to play and make it to the top level regardless of whether there is flaming in the low brackets. That's the point of matchmaking. Flaming "works" when there is no matchmaking, because those who do want to play casually and don't care to follow the metagame will say "Fuck it!" and move on, leaving only the dedicated and, therefore by proxy, skilled to play. But since there already is a filtering system in the form of matchmaking, flaming really serves no purpose.

Calling flaming "really good for the community" is insane. That goes with the assumption that if you don't want to wade through bullshit, you must also not have the necessary skills to play the game. We aren't talking about Van Gogh suffering for his art here, we're talking about a video game.

Purge says this often during his videos (even though I cannot find where he gets this statistic), but about 90% of Dota 2 players are in the Normal MMR. Meaning 90% of people have to deal with the "casuals", the "flamers", the "feeders", etc. And if 90% of the people playing Dota 2 have to deal with that nonsense, Valve needs to keep doing what they are doing, and not just say "Get better, wade through, and player attitudes will finally change."

He's likely referencing this, by the way.

EDIT to avoid triplepost: today's blog post is surprisingly relevant (cc: @slag)

#94 Edited by CornBREDX (5965 posts) -

Ya, it's why I have never gotten into this genre of gaming. It looks fun, but I don't want to deal with assholes yelling at me while I learn the game. I had enough of that in counter strike back in the day.

I don't need more drama in my life then I already have. If I had friends that played DOTA I'd be more likely to learn it, but I dont... so I don't play it.

#95 Posted by Slag (4846 posts) -

@brad said:

@granthinds said:

@cameron: Thank you. Winning isn't the reason I play Dota. I play Dota cause it's fun to play. There are fun moments other than winning. I love being in a party on party chat with my friends. I like to think of it as Sunday Football on a nearby field.

I keep trying to tell my girlfriend that this is half the reason I play Dota so much, because it's a fun social experience without having to go out. She isn't buying it.

That is actually the main reason I play it. It's good way to stay in touch with old buddies who have moved out of state.

#96 Edited by Godzilla_Sushi (1084 posts) -

The Giantbomb community is almost completely friendly and I've made a lot of regular friends on there. Give that a shot, and just ensure them you are playing fresh. Aside from the human condition, I'd say 99% of the people I've played with are awesome and nice. People just get frustrated sometimes. It's a very frustrating game.

To quote Beerfest in baby voice "It's frustrating......it's frustrating"

#97 Posted by benstewart84 (22 posts) -

I've purely played games from the GB chat so far and haven't received any hate.

Granted I've only played 4 online games, but I thought by now I'd have received some hassle!

#98 Posted by granthinds (11 posts) -

@brad: It's the truth yo. As long as all party members have mics.

#99 Edited by Brackynews (4094 posts) -

EVE has a term for this I've never heard elsewhere... "bittervets". Seems legit. Number one complaint I can see with today's 19th expansion after 10 years boils down to "quit dumbing down the game for new people it was fine 5 years ago don't change things or make me evolve as a player dwaaaaahh". (Hopefully I'm not the only person here fond of Duckman.)

To which I, as a noob, suggest: "Harden the fuck up your highness. The peasants are storming the castle." ;)

#100 Posted by jaytee00 (29 posts) -

There's lots of reasons why people will get angry in a Dota match but none of them excuse being a dick. Mostly it's just people wanting to make it absolutely clear (to themselves and everyone else) that the loss is not their fault. Raging at your team is absolutely pathetic and counter productive.

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