" @Nasar7 said: But...but that's against everything the N64 stood for! :( " Dang, once again my understanding is vexed by my lack of console knowledge. I was PC exclusive while the N64 was doing its thing. "
Some of the very best N64 titles (Ocarina of Time, GoldenEye) took years to make and were delayed more than once. Meanwhile, some devs were busy shitting out horrible clones of Super Mario 64. "
And actually, to make another note, at least regarding Ocarina of Time, the dev team for Majora's Mask was given about a year to put a Zelda game together. They ended up reusing a lot of Ocarina's assets, but at the same time, they managed to put together one of the most original, darkest, and outright strange Zelda titles in the history of the series. By all accounts, Dragon Age II is just Dragon Age Light. "
@kishan6: I think you out-thought yourself there. The assets, missions, and bare-bones level design were finished a little under four months ago, so the Game Informer reveal was four months into development (about the midway point of the dev cycle).
Alpha protocol may be a cool rpg and does some great things but it is still a badly made game. "
To briefly stray in to total subjectivity I will say that I enjoyed Alpha Protocol more than DA2 so far. I don't know that I realized that until I was typing it, but there it is. And considering that that was something of a novice effort (in the shooter realm) from a studio notorious for making broken games, that's a problem. To broaden the point, many many of my favorite games, my favorite RPGs in particular, are really flawed efforts that nevertheless have some alchemical magic to them. That comes from time to a degree, but more than that it comes from care. DA2 lacks the magic, and it's because someone doesn't care. "
Not to rain on alpha protocol because i do like what it did but saying someone did not care for DA2 i feel is a bit unfair. I'm sure people in both camps worked hard on their games and put a lot of work into it. But i feel both games could have used more time to work on them. But i feel DA2 is getting more hate because it's not origins then it being a bad game. "
I actually just came to the realization that I enjoyed Alpha Protocol more than DA2, too. Expectations probably play a part in that, but I prefer more control over a plot than less.
" You know, I really don't understand why it is suddenly "cool" to shit on Bioware. Some people are even beginning to say shit like, "ME2 was a mediocre game." Really? Fucking really?
So... I understand where you're coming from here. I do. ME2 was a phenomenal game. And yet... In terms of gameplay and plot structure it was very simplistic. Which in and of itself isn't that bad, but bear with me here for a second. Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, Neverwinter Nights, KoTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age 2. Seeing it? You see that? That's a descending line. Sadly, that descending line charts the fortunes of the RPG in general pretty closely, and I think that DA2 finally represents the crossing of a threshold. That's why people are upset, and that's why they defend The Witcher and Alpha Protocol (LONG LIVE BLACK ISLE!). Because those games, as flawed as they are, represent the ideals of the RPG, however flawed. "
You bring up a great point but i still feel like you have to let bioware try and find a happy middle ground. Because i will agree that there may be this descending line but is that really a bad thing. All the games listed are still good games. If they made any of the games of old how well will they really sell? So i don't blame bioware for trying to find a middle ground, yes we may have to take some lump along the road to get to that point but they are still making good games. Alpha protocol may be a cool rpg and does some great things but it is still a badly made game. "
But the anomaly on this 'descending line of complexity' is Dragon Age: Origins, which was a throw back to the BG days -certainly more complex than NWN, KOTOR, JE and ME1- and (even though I personally didn't think it was all that) it's no coincidence that it became their most successful game. It sold better than expected because nobody else is making games that play like that, whereas the gameplay in Mass Effect 2 has been done to death in recent years. Origins may appeal to a more specific audience than ME, but it has far less competition.
That said, I don't think DA2 is suffering too badly from a lack of complexity in gameplay or story, it's just suffering from so many corners being cut. The camera is basically unfit for purpose, re-using maps when they have so few areas to start with, animations being used when they shouldn't be, ultra-bland level design, no equipment for party members etc. etc.
Obviously EA and Bioware need to attempt to grow their potential audience from a 'measly' 2 millions to something more substancial. For a developer, which in my mind puts out 'Prestige Games' that are on par with Rockstar and Blizzard and Bethesda productions, that's an absurdly low sales number.
Bioware games demand a lot more 'work' from us players. Coming from a background of adapting pen and paper RPGs to computer games, reading is a big part of the experience. The 'chose your own adventure' type of dialog too takes up lots of playtime and dillutes the action and pacing and makes Bioware games an aquired taste - at least judging by these sales numbers.
So either they try to adapt to the mass market, as in dilluting their heritage of richly codex'd worlds and countless 'chose your own adventure' type of dialogs in favor of more combat with a heavier focus on direct actions rather than abstract systems found in pen and paper games. Or they reduce production cost and increase revenue with short production cycles.
From my point of view, they'd have to move away from excessive active talking and increase combat density to create a more Blizzardish flow of level-ups and loot. Going from active talking to excessive passive 'Banter' and just keep 'chose your own adventure' dialog in key story moments. These are changes that would help reaching a much larger target audience, but it would dillute Bioware's heritage and it might translate in them losing their soul.
While I enjoyed much of Dragon Age 2, I guess it can be considered a missstep in Bioware's soulsearching for finding an identity with more mass market appeal.
" Obviously EA and Bioware need to attempt to grow their potential audience from a 'measly' 2 millions to something more substancial. For a developer, which in my mind puts out 'Prestige Games' that are on par with Rockstar and Blizzard and Bethesda productions,
I beg to differ, they would be selling much more if they were better.. thus not always the most popular equals the best, Rockstar, Blizzard, Bethesda and BIoware audience are mostly core gamers.. they have fail to make something good other than Mass Effect (by the way ONE GOOD mass effect, the first sucked)
If only somebody would manage to translate the Secret of Mana experience into the modern day era. Waiting for that since I first played that game. Sadly - I still have to resort to replaying the original on an emulator every now and then. It holds up pretty well too.
" Obviously EA and Bioware need to attempt to grow their potential audience from a 'measly' 2 millions to something more substancial. For a developer, which in my mind puts out 'Prestige Games' that are on par with Rockstar and Blizzard and Bethesda productions,
I beg to differ, they would be selling much more if they were better.. thus not always the most popular equals the best, Rockstar, Blizzard, Bethesda and BIoware audience are mostly core gamers.. they have fail to make something good other than Mass Effect (by the way ONE GOOD mass effect, the first sucked) "
I believe there are just 2 million core gamers digging all the talking and reading in Bioware games - thus the lack of more impressive sales. The rest of the core market is bored out of their minds by it.
Changing that would be losing their identity. Bioware is about active dialog first and foremost. Maybe the MMORPG space appreciates it more than the core gamer market - SW:TOR will tell.
Women should be into Bioware games big time. A huge untapped market for Bioware and probably their only chance to retain their core identity and growing their business. How to get non-core women to take notice of Bioware games though...
" You know, I really don't understand why it is suddenly "cool" to shit on Bioware. Some people are even beginning to say shit like, "ME2 was a mediocre game." Really? Fucking really?
So... I understand where you're coming from here. I do. ME2 was a phenomenal game. And yet... In terms of gameplay and plot structure it was very simplistic. Which in and of itself isn't that bad, but bear with me here for a second. Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, Neverwinter Nights, KoTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age 2. Seeing it? You see that? That's a descending line. Sadly, that descending line charts the fortunes of the RPG in general pretty closely, and I think that DA2 finally represents the crossing of a threshold. That's why people are upset, and that's why they defend The Witcher and Alpha Protocol (LONG LIVE BLACK ISLE!). Because those games, as flawed as they are, represent the ideals of the RPG, however flawed. "
You bring up a great point but i still feel like you have to let bioware try and find a happy middle ground. Because i will agree that there may be this descending line but is that really a bad thing. All the games listed are still good games. If they made any of the games of old how well will they really sell? So i don't blame bioware for trying to find a middle ground, yes we may have to take some lump along the road to get to that point but they are still making good games. Alpha protocol may be a cool rpg and does some great things but it is still a badly made game. "
But the anomaly on this 'descending line of complexity' is Dragon Age: Origins, which was a throw back to the BG days -certainly more complex than NWN, KOTOR, JE and ME1- and (even though I personally didn't think it was all that) it's no coincidence that it became their most successful game. It sold better than expected because nobody else is making games that play like that, whereas the gameplay in Mass Effect 2 has been done to death in recent years. Origins may appeal to a more specific audience than ME, but it has far less competition. That said, I don't think DA2 is suffering too badly from a lack of complexity in gameplay or story, it's just suffering from so many corners being cut. The camera is basically unfit for purpose, re-using maps when they have so few areas to start with, animations being used when they shouldn't be, ultra-bland level design, no equipment for party members etc. etc. "
As far as your second point i agree that the many flaws of dragon age 2 are because of cut corners. But i think Mass Effect is their bigger bread maker in the long run. I feel more people can relate to Mass effect then dragon age. What set it back was because it was only for xbox until recently. I feel Mass effect 3 will sell along the line of 4 millions copies because it will be muti-plat this time. Mass effect may be done to death as you say but i don't think that is a problem when it does it really well if not better then most sci-fi rpg/shooters. That is the reason why Call of duty sell the numbers it does even when we are flooded with shooters now. But for the most part i can agree with you i believe there is just a split of appealing to the masses and the core players.
"Is anybody else sitting here reading these posts and thinking, "My God, I hope they didn't do the same thing with Mass Effect 3," ? "
No way i would not worry about that i feel bioware is still trying to find the sweet spot for dragon age. While Mass Effect has everything pretty solid. They just need to rpg it up a little and make sure it will branch off based on your choices and it will do fine.
anyway perhaps Bioware should do what Blizzard does.. Focus on what they do best: take the time to do the best most polish ass game you can do and make your audience happy because a happy audience is a growing audience.
No one would thoug a MMORPG like WoW would get so big a few years back
"Is anybody else sitting here reading these posts and thinking, "My God, I hope they didn't do the same thing with Mass Effect 3," ? "
No way i would not worry about that i feel bioware is still trying to find the sweet spot for dragon age. While Mass Effect has everything pretty solid. They just need to rpg it up a little and make sure it will branch off based on your choices and it will do fine. "
Personally I'd be fine if they didn't update the tech or mechanics from ME2 at all. I loved that game and all I care about as far as ME3 is concerned is the continuation of the story.
" You know, I really don't understand why it is suddenly "cool" to shit on Bioware. Some people are even beginning to say shit like, "ME2 was a mediocre game." Really? Fucking really?
So... I understand where you're coming from here. I do. ME2 was a phenomenal game. And yet... In terms of gameplay and plot structure it was very simplistic. Which in and of itself isn't that bad, but bear with me here for a second. Baldur's Gate, Baldur's Gate 2, Neverwinter Nights, KoTOR, Jade Empire, Mass Effect 1, Dragon Age: Origins, Mass Effect 2, Dragon Age 2. Seeing it? You see that? That's a descending line. Sadly, that descending line charts the fortunes of the RPG in general pretty closely, and I think that DA2 finally represents the crossing of a threshold. That's why people are upset, and that's why they defend The Witcher and Alpha Protocol (LONG LIVE BLACK ISLE!). Because those games, as flawed as they are, represent the ideals of the RPG, however flawed. "
You bring up a great point but i still feel like you have to let bioware try and find a happy middle ground. Because i will agree that there may be this descending line but is that really a bad thing. All the games listed are still good games. If they made any of the games of old how well will they really sell? So i don't blame bioware for trying to find a middle ground, yes we may have to take some lump along the road to get to that point but they are still making good games. Alpha protocol may be a cool rpg and does some great things but it is still a badly made game. "
But the anomaly on this 'descending line of complexity' is Dragon Age: Origins, which was a throw back to the BG days -certainly more complex than NWN, KOTOR, JE and ME1- and (even though I personally didn't think it was all that) it's no coincidence that it became their most successful game. It sold better than expected because nobody else is making games that play like that, whereas the gameplay in Mass Effect 2 has been done to death in recent years. Origins may appeal to a more specific audience than ME, but it has far less competition. That said, I don't think DA2 is suffering too badly from a lack of complexity in gameplay or story, it's just suffering from so many corners being cut. The camera is basically unfit for purpose, re-using maps when they have so few areas to start with, animations being used when they shouldn't be, ultra-bland level design, no equipment for party members etc. etc. "
As far as your second point i agree that the many flaws of dragon age 2 are because of cut corners. But i think Mass Effect is their bigger bread maker in the long run. I feel more people can relate to Mass effect then dragon age. What set it back was because it was only for xbox until recently. I feel Mass effect 3 will sell along the line of 4 millions copies because it will be muti-plat this time. Mass effect may be done to death as you say but i don't think that is a problem when it does it really well if not better then most sci-fi rpg/shooters. That is the reason why Call of duty sell the numbers it does even when we are flooded with shooters now. But for the most part i can agree with you i believe there is just a split of appealing to the masses and the core players. "
How far does this long run stretch after Mass Effect 3?
If there's any game that Bioware is banking on long-term, it's The Old Republic, and given the way that the MMO market works, there's absolutely no guarantee that the game will be a success.
Yeah - but Blizzard is into conjuring virtual crack and Bioware is into authoring interactive fantasy/sci-fi novels. You just can't push that the same way it seems - the current target audience is way smaller.
Either they drop their interactive novels business and pick up dealing in interactive drugs or they attempt to turn every hot tech-savy babe (aren't they all by now?) into Bioware fangirls gushing over the lasted Bioware romance option.
Chobot certainly seems to be smitten by that Alistair guy.
well long term maybe was a bad word but i would say bioware knows they have a good future with mass effect and i don't think mass effect 3 will be the last mass effect. The old republic very well could be but it has to beat or at least match wits with WoW. Which i'm unsure it will do.but if it can i would agree that will be a money maker for them.
"Is anybody else sitting here reading these posts and thinking, "My God, I hope they didn't do the same thing with Mass Effect 3," ? "
No way i would not worry about that i feel bioware is still trying to find the sweet spot for dragon age. While Mass Effect has everything pretty solid. They just need to rpg it up a little and make sure it will branch off based on your choices and it will do fine. "
Personally I'd be fine if they didn't update the tech or mechanics from ME2 at all. I loved that game and all I care about as far as ME3 is concerned is the continuation of the story. "
well true i could say the same thing but i do want to see some improvements. I want the skills to branch out a little more and i want more weapons within the game that will give people more of a reason to use more then one loadout. I want to be able to take off my damn helmet when i'm talking and have an easier way to access my armor then going to my room which is two to three load screens away depending on where you are. I'm not asking for a dragon age 2 or anything but they can still fine tune Mass Effect 3 to make everyone happy. More teammate armors that i don't have to buy (with real money), find a middle ground of mako traveling and phobe searching that is fun, more teammate based missions are all welcome too.
" @kishan6: I think you out-thought yourself there. The assets, missions, and bare-bones level design were finished a little under four months ago, so the Game Informer reveal was four months into development (about the midway point of the dev cycle). "
Maybe im just not getting what your saying.... The game informer cover was announced 9 months ago and four months ago they had the assets missions and bare bones level design finished.... And the "developer" in the first post said that it was largely developed in 8 months.... That means that that was quite close to the beginning of the dev cycle.
Granted i just started a new ADD medication so maybe its just making me be incredibly stupid :)
" Is anybody else sitting here reading these posts and thinking, "My God, I hope they didn't do the same thing with Mass Effect 3," ? "
Actually I'm thinking "what the hell is wrong with me" since I enjoyed DAII alot more than DA:O in every way. But yeah, I guess I do worry since the mass effect series is one of the franchises I hold most dearly theese days.
How in the hell does Dragon Age 2 get made in 8 months, is a legitimately GOOD game and sell less than the DA:O knock off glitch-fest that is Fable 3? Fable 3 is a bug-ridden shit-pile and the Lionhead devs and Peter Molyneux keep crying they aren't given enough time. Fable 2 (I'm not making this up) had a record breaking number of bugs on the Xbox, and Fable 3 is worse. Repetitive fetch quests? Oh yeah! Follow your barking dog for 10 minutes only to have him bring you back to where you were 5 minutes ago so you can dig for "random quest item" . Button mashing combat, yep 3 varieties. Dealing little damage with melee, shooting a gun that may occasionally point at an enemy, and magic that pretty much kills everything without trying. Simplified interaction wheel? So simple you don't even choose what you do. Select "good" and you'll at some point be dancing with whatever guy is there as he giggles like a little girl when you boost him over your head.
Fable 3 game import system = your Fable 2 hero was male/female , NPC's say "your father" / "your mother" THAT'S IT! All this after like half of what was promised in the Dev Diaries was cut, AND they charged people for the color black. Lionhead gets away with being probably the worst developer ever, and Bioware gets dumped on just for not being more awesome? WTF?!
As far as your second point i agree that the many flaws of dragon age 2 are because of cut corners. But i think Mass Effect is their bigger bread maker in the long run. I feel more people can relate to Mass effect then dragon age. What set it back was because it was only for xbox until recently. I feel Mass effect 3 will sell along the line of 4 millions copies because it will be muti-plat this time. Mass effect may be done to death as you say but i don't think that is a problem when it does it really well if not better then most sci-fi rpg/shooters. That is the reason why Call of duty sell the numbers it does even when we are flooded with shooters now. But for the most part i can agree with you i believe there is just a split of appealing to the masses and the core players. "
I think the main thing that separates ME from DA in terms of sales is that ME is a shooter, which has always had a broader market than your RPGs. If anything, fantasy stories have a much much broader appeal than Sci-fi (see; LotR, Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, etc...). I suspect the reasoning with DA is that RPGs are perceived as being less accessible than shooters. That's why you see the DA2 advertising really taking aim at the perception that RPGs are complex.
" Obviously EA and Bioware need to attempt to grow their potential audience from a 'measly' 2 millions to something more substancial. For a developer, which in my mind puts out 'Prestige Games' that are on par with Rockstar and Blizzard and Bethesda productions, that's an absurdly low sales number. Bioware games demand a lot more 'work' from us players. Coming from a background of adapting pen and paper RPGs to computer games, reading is a big part of the experience. The 'chose your own adventure' type of dialog too takes up lots of playtime and dillutes the action and pacing and makes Bioware games an aquired taste - at least judging by these sales numbers. So either they try to adapt to the mass market, as in dilluting their heritage of richly codex'd worlds and countless 'chose your own adventure' type of dialogs in favor of more combat with a heavier focus on direct actions rather than abstract systems found in pen and paper games. Or they reduce production cost and increase revenue with short production cycles. From my point of view, they'd have to move away from excessive active talking and increase combat density to create a more Blizzardish flow of level-ups and loot. Going from active talking to excessive passive 'Banter' and just keep 'chose your own adventure' dialog in key story moments. These are changes that would help reaching a much larger target audience, but it would dillute Bioware's heritage and it might translate in them losing their soul. While I enjoyed much of Dragon Age 2, I guess it can be considered a missstep in Bioware's soulsearching for finding an identity with more mass market appeal. "
I kind of agree. Kind of. 2 Million is not a small number, though. Many developers survive just fine in a niche MUCH smaller than that, and the thing is that developing for a niche market means that your fans are going to be much more passionate about your product. I think EA and Bioware are in a state of panic, not understanding why so many people love their games, and experimenting around with different points in the Action/RPG spectrum to try to hit some sweet spot where their games will absolutely blow up. The push to make their games "more cinematic" is a part of this, and it's a big reason why their production costs are becoming so high.
So I present a third option for Bioware/EA. Rein it in, appeal to your humongous niche market, and stop trying to find the non-existent magic formula that's going to make everyone from hardcore nerds to CoD fratboys cream their pants. There's a very low chance of it happening, and you're only going to end up destroying all that good will you've built over the years.
@Mike76x: Were you not around here when Fable III launched? There was a lot of talk in the forums about how Lionhead fucked up that game.
That being said, there's still a cult of fools that eat up everything Molyneux says as gospel and that has forgiven his every transgression since he promised us the moon and the stars in Black & White and gave us a lightbulb instead.
" How in the hell does Dragon Age 2 get made in 8 months, is a legitimately GOOD game and sell less than the DA:O knock off glitch-fest that is Fable 3? Fable 3 is a bug-ridden shit-pile and the Lionhead devs and Peter Molyneux keep crying they aren't given enough time. Fable 2 (I'm not making this up) had a record breaking number of bugs on the Xbox, and Fable 3 is worse. Repetitive fetch quests? Oh yeah! Follow your barking dog for 10 minutes only to have him bring you back to where you were 5 minutes ago so you can dig for "random quest item" . Button mashing combat, yep 3 varieties. Dealing little damage with melee, shooting a gun that may occasionally point at an enemy, and magic that pretty much kills everything without trying. Simplified interaction wheel? So simple you don't even choose what you do. Select "good" and you'll at some point be dancing with whatever guy is there as he giggles like a little girl when you boost him over your head. Fable 3 game import system = your Fable 2 hero was male/female , NPC's say "your father" / "your mother" THAT'S IT!All this after like half of what was promised in the Dev Diaries was cut, AND they charged people for the color black. Lionhead gets away with being probably the worst developer ever, and Bioware gets dumped on just for not being more awesome? WTF?! "
Who said the world ever was fair? :) I would say Fable 3 is an easier game to sell. Where Fable 3 is dumb, charming and cute, Dragon Age is brutal, intellectual and complex. Ofcourse most people are going to buy Fable 3
As far as your second point i agree that the many flaws of dragon age 2 are because of cut corners. But i think Mass Effect is their bigger bread maker in the long run. I feel more people can relate to Mass effect then dragon age. What set it back was because it was only for xbox until recently. I feel Mass effect 3 will sell along the line of 4 millions copies because it will be muti-plat this time. Mass effect may be done to death as you say but i don't think that is a problem when it does it really well if not better then most sci-fi rpg/shooters. That is the reason why Call of duty sell the numbers it does even when we are flooded with shooters now. But for the most part i can agree with you i believe there is just a split of appealing to the masses and the core players. "
I think the main thing that separates ME from DA in terms of sales is that ME is a shooter, which has always had a broader market than your RPGs. If anything, fantasy stories have a much much broader appeal than Sci-fi (see; LotR, Harry Potter, Game of Thrones, etc...). I suspect the reasoning with DA is that RPGs are perceived as being less accessible than shooters. That's why you see the DA2 advertising really taking aim at the perception that RPGs are complex. "
yes sadly that may be the edge that make ME more appealing then DA is that it is a shooter. But fanasy stories having a much broader appeal i would say maybe maybe not. It all depend on what you group in with sci-fi. Because you do have halo, killzone, resistance, star war, star craft etc etc. But i'm sure that could be its own dabate in itself.
" @Mike76x: Were you not around here when Fable III launched? There was a lot of talk in the forums about how Lionhead fucked up that game. That being said, there's still a cult of fools that eat up everything Molyneux says as gospel and that has forgiven his every transgression since he promised us the moon and the stars in Black & White and gave us a lightbulb instead. "
I did miss it, I'm still new here. I was still on the Lionhead boards around that time, where I caught a 3 day ban for pointing out one of Lionhead's pet suck-ups was being very rude (without provocation) to another poster.
" @Mike76x: Were you not around here when Fable III launched? There was a lot of talk in the forums about how Lionhead fucked up that game. That being said, there's still a cult of fools that eat up everything Molyneux says as gospel and that has forgiven his every transgression since he promised us the moon and the stars in Black & White and gave us a lightbulb instead. "
I did miss it, I'm still new here. I was still on the Lionhead boards around that time, where I caught a 3 day ban for pointing out one of Lionhead's pet suck-ups was being very rude (without provocation) to another poster. "
Ah. Well, hopefully you'll find it much better (and more open to dissenting opinions) here.
" One day you kids will learn how to compliment one game without shitting on another. One day. "
I did mostly, until now. It's just ridiculous that game "A" can (given twice the development time) embody EVERYTHING that's wrong in game "B", as well as stealing from game "B"s predecessor, and not only have better sales but avoid the metacritic spam attack.
" One day you kids will learn how to compliment one game without shitting on another. One day. "
I did mostly, until now. It's just ridiculous that game "A" can (given twice the development time) embody EVERYTHING that's wrong in game "B", as well as stealing from game "B"s predecessor, and not only have better sales but avoid the metacritic spam attack. "
I recall a lot of people being mad about Fable 3. And I recall Fable 2 being a good game. If anything DAO->DA2 is a parallel for Fable 2->Fable 3. I heard enough bad stuff that I didn't even try Fable 3.
Where's that dude that was arguing with me and kept insisting DA2 took way longer to make, said it started alongside DAO/DAOA? Yeah right, how many teams do you think Bioware has?
" One day you kids will learn how to compliment one game without shitting on another. One day. "
I did mostly, until now. It's just ridiculous that game "A" can (given twice the development time) embody EVERYTHING that's wrong in game "B", as well as stealing from game "B"s predecessor, and not only have better sales but avoid the metacritic spam attack. "
I recall a lot of people being mad about Fable 3. And I recall Fable 2 being a good game. If anything DAO->DA2 is a parallel for Fable 2->Fable 3. I heard enough bad stuff that I didn't even try Fable 3. "
I loved Fable 2, so much that I tried Fable TLC which I hated years ago, and I hated it again but I forced myself to "experience it". I originally thought Fable 3 was okay, until I did everything and realized that "everything" in Fable 3 isn't much at all. Then I played DA:O and was just disgusted. Running away from your castle because your family is getting slaughtered, is intense. Running away from your castle because your brother is big meanie, is dumb.
Bioware/EA should hook up with Tecmo to further Streamline the next Dragon Age combat system. Think how much snappier and responsive a Dynasty Warriors combat system would feel in DA. Call it Dragon Age: Eastern Legends and crap it out in 3 months.
" Bioware/EA should hook up with Tecmo to further Streamline the next Dragon Age combat system. Think how much snappier and responsive a Dynasty Warriors combat system would feel in DA. Call it Dragon Age: Eastern Legends and crap it out in 3 months. "
Hey, come on now. The Dynasty Warriors games use more than one button for melee combat. :P
" @Metal_Mills: Mass Effect 2 only sold 2 million copies across all 3 platforms? I actually find that astounding. It was THE game of last year. I thought everyone and their grandparents had played it. "
It did sell more. It sold roughly 2.5 million units on the Xbox 360, which is what I imagine everyone is quoting.
As for the PS3 version? No idea. Nobody's seen concrete numbers as far as I can tell, but the last I heard it didn't do terribly well. Of course it didn't, it's the second act of a trilogy. It's like going to see Return of the King without checking Fellowship or Two Towers.
As a player supposedly spending $60 on your product, I don't care how much an achievement it was for the time it spent in development... a rushed game is a rushed game, and if it feels like it (not saying it does, as I haven't bought it, just a hypothetical), then it should be a budget title. No other development house could get away with that.
" As a player supposedly spending $60 on your product, I don't care how much an achievement it was for the time it spent in development... a rushed game is a rushed game, and if it feels like it (not saying it does, as I haven't bought it, just a hypothetical), then it should be a budget title. No other development house could get away with that. "
" I'm hoping Mass Effect 3 isn't going to get the rushed treatment like DA 2. "
Theres a risk, but since it was thought to be a trilogy from the start they should have the frame for their story finished and know where to go so it doesnt get a spastic feel. The engine is evidently pretty much done. I also read somewhere that they've been working on ME3 since before ME2 was released. Yes, Im somewhat in denial about the risks, hehe. I love ME2 with passion.
As for the actual topic, as someone already said: they should keep refining their niché and not aim for the stereotypical CoD-audience. What actually saddens me the most is that most people are staring themselves blind on the money. It is an important part to keep the machinery running, but Bioware seem to go with a profit and EA seem to see the cooperation with Bioware as a good deal. So, why is the game being rushed? MORE profits? Whats the point of more profits if you dont use that money to make better quality in order to get an edge vs the competiton and growing the own brand(s)? Why are the non-fiscal values neglected so often? Those are the ones that last in the cultural mind, which gaming fits into.
EA could cut back on terrible ideas instead of cutting back development cycles of games that has potential in its predecessors and in the actual released game.
" As a player supposedly spending $60 on your product, I don't care how much an achievement it was for the time it spent in development... a rushed game is a rushed game, and if it feels like it (not saying it does, as I haven't bought it, just a hypothetical), then it should be a budget title. No other development house could get away with that. "
It definitely doesn't feel like a budget title. "
Seeing how my Nightmare playthrough took me 60 hours - 1$/hours seems like a great deal. I also found the whole experience to be way better balanced than DA:O, from functional 'crafting' to a meaningful economy and especially combat on Nightmare.
My problems with the game stem from the heavy retreading of environmental assets and the overly loose overarching storyline, which just didn't feel tight and cohesive at any point and finishes on a low note.
Definitely got my money's worth though. And then some. I'm certain to replay it sometime before Dragon Age 3 hits - it's been money well spent indeed.
" I would have gladly waited one or two more years for a higher-quality product. No question. "
"
I'd rather have them setting up a consistent 'engine and content creation tools' team and have 2 full content creation developement teams working on Dragon Age episodes with a 1-2 year dev-cycle each and release one or more every year. I'm definitely down for more Bioware games. Guess I'd be game for up to 3 Bioware games a year without tiring of the formula.
If they'd just start doing 'Episodes' and not re-iterate on underlying mechanics every time. Just churn out more of the same and keep expanding on the storyline. Have a 2-3 year dev-cycle working on all the content creation tools for their engine, then churn out 3 huge episodes of whatever franchise they were preparing for in quick succession. Imagine if they was prepared to release 3 full-sized Mass Effect games in one year. That'd just be the best.
Ask themselves: 'What do we want to do?'. Prepare the tools to do so. Then churn out a multi-episode epic with a release every year or even quicker.
" Is anybody else sitting here reading these posts and thinking, "My God, I hope they didn't do the same thing with Mass Effect 3," ? "
Mass Effect 1 was released November 2007. Mass Effect 2 was released January 2010 (27 months later). Mass Effect 3 is due to release Q4 2011 (21-23 months after ME2).
In addition, the main story of ME has been planned as a connected trilogy from the start, so presumably ME3 was mostly planned story-wise before work on it started. In addition, due to positive reception of ME2 they'll be able to reuse a lot more of the mechanics than what was reused from ME1 for ME2.
I'm feeling positive on ME3 not suffering from these issues.
Bioware games like ME2 and DA:O did not sell as well as they could have, because piratebay has had better sales policies. Why do Blizzard games sell well? Because they make you buy originals or exclude you from their famous multiplayer services (which complement their games by adding a different playing-experience). Why did the last Fable games and RDR sell well? They are console only and in opposite to the common PC pirateware, you need "expert help" to make pirated software work on your console. Oblivion kind of breaks the rule which makes me think that it has probably been a much better game for the average player than it was for me... or it was the mad graphics and the never-seen-before hype.
Anyways, Bioware lately tries to fight piracy with rushed, half-finished, unpolished games and masses of supplementing DLCs. The problem is, one fraction of the players just pirate the game and its DLCs anyways (which genius did ever come up with the idea that you cannot pirate DLCs?), one fraction buys the game only and hates its half-polishedness, because they refuse to buy any additional DLC and only the small remaining fraction likes this kind of strategy and defends it with their heart. Unfortunately the primarily mentioned group is by far the largest.
From a player's and customer's point of view I demand a complete product which entertains me in exchange for the money that I paid. That's why i support everyone who has already mentioned that a short development cycle is no excuse for a game not meeting its expectations. But from a company's point of view, I can understand that the quality of their products worsens if most of their "customers" play it "for free". As long an as piracy is only a mouse-click away and cannot be prosecuted accordingly, I see the game-industry in a downward spiral. As much as it saddens me, the only solution I can come up with, is for Bioware to drop the PC market and go console-only. It will prevent a new DA:O from happening ever again, but personally I would prefer a polished (aka: not as it is now) DA II to Bioware going further towards average quality games or even bankruptcy.
" @Metal_Mills: Mass Effect 2 only sold 2 million copies across all 3 platforms? I actually find that astounding. It was THE game of last year. I thought everyone and their grandparents had played it. "
" I'm hoping Mass Effect 3 isn't going to get the rushed treatment like DA 2. "
Theres a risk, but since it was thought to be a trilogy from the start they should have the frame for their story finished and know where to go so it doesnt get a spastic feel. The engine is evidently pretty much done. I also read somewhere that they've been working on ME3 since before ME2 was released. Yes, Im somewhat in denial about the risks, hehe. I love ME2 with passion. As for the actual topic, as someone already said: they should keep refining their niché and not aim for the stereotypical CoD-audience. What actually saddens me the most is that most people are staring themselves blind on the money. It is an important part to keep the machinery running, but Bioware seem to go with a profit and EA seem to see the cooperation with Bioware as a good deal. So, why is the game being rushed? MORE profits? Whats the point of more profits if you dont use that money to make better quality in order to get an edge vs the competiton and growing the own brand(s)? Why are the non-fiscal values neglected so often? Those are the ones that last in the cultural mind, which gaming fits into. EA could cut back on terrible ideas instead of cutting back development cycles of games that has potential in its predecessors and in the actual released game. "
EA, like any company nowadays, wants to constantly increase its share price. Keeps shareholders happy, and I'm sure part of their executive compensation is in stock, so EA management has a strong incentive to keep increasing their profits. Unfortunately they'll never say "well we all make a lot of money selling RPGs to this niche, and that's good enough."
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