It occured to me after reloading a save to see the 'paladin' ending (I saved the mages first) that the catalyst for both wars in this game are motherfuckers in your party. First Isabella goes "oh by the way I stole the book" but only after imminent war. The Anders goes "oh by the way Im a terrorist now" and starts a second war. It seems like a weird choice to have the catalysts for war in the party, and yet you can't change the fact that Isabella's thievery starts a war then Ander's mage rage starts a war. Anyone else bothered that you can fuck these people or shit on everything they believe in, but you can't have any sway on this? I feel especially strongly that you should be able to talk Anders out of it. I'm tempted to think this was just a matter of them not having the time to give you sway over big choices. But if that's the case, you should have people not in the party do this shit? Cus its cognitive dissonance when Anders never leaves my sight and somehow he built a magic bomb.   

I wanted to kill Anders, but I decked him out so nicely I figured why kill a valuable asset. I was also tempted to hand Isabella over to the Qunari but I figured I'd invested in that romance already, and I wanted that achievement. I hate that the game forces you to choose a side. I wish there was a way you could tell them both to fuck off, but then there'd be no third act I guess. There's some sway I think, I've read online that if don't have a high enough friendship with Isabella she won't return with the book at the end of the 2nd act. As for Anders, I wonder what would've happened if I refused to help him. 

I am more bothered by the fact that there is seemingly no reason for Anders to do what he did, what good could possibly come out of randomly nuking some chantry? 
 
Also Bioware really set this story up in a weird way, you have choices but in the end what you choose doesn't really matter it all ends the exact same way which I guess it has to for gameplay reasons but they should really have made some changes to that. 
 
Also how dumb is the last choice, "are you for or against Genocide" is the question basically. Who actually chose the Templars side the first time around?

I threw Isabella to the wolves cus she was annoying. She came back with the book and I gave her up. But then she just escapes with the book. So its like, okay, Bioware really want Isabella to have that book and be alive and free I guess. But I guess for me, it just called to attention your general lack of control when they make it seem like you gotta choice then everything ends up the same no matter what. Like, Im fine if they insist those 2 wars must happen. Both wars seemed kind of inevitable, though, so I feel like I should at least be able to keep my own dudes from starting the war. The mages and paladins were ready to kill each other before the chantry blew up. It didn't feel like something that absolutely needed to happen.

Let's just say that this isn't the strongest story Bioware have written. In fact, it's been really mediocre at best. What they really wanted to do was to write a story but have your companions be deeply involved with it so that it makes you care about the story more. I like the concept and the structure of it but they could've pulled it off better.

I thought the story they were telling was interesting, though it kind of felt like they just told the same story twice in a row. You could read a bigger message into that, that the mages and paladins only kept peace in the presence of Qunari because Qunari were even more alien. Right, its like once the war with 'them' is over, you fight amongst yourselves. I get it. The execution just had some issues. It felt more expository, like something you resolve on the side while a bigger mission comes to light. Like Orzammar in the first game, between the political infight, then later the golem thing, kind of hit all these points as a side story.
 
It seemed like the setup was someone finds a "one ring" in the Deep Roads, I mean that's basically what it is. And you deal with the brother but the magic object is gone, only to appear again at the very very end. I kinda expected maybe a blood mage rebel got his hands on it and created a threat that caused the mages and paladins to unite again. That's where I expected things to go. I expected a sweeping new force to show up. I was fighting blight most of the game, I thought maybe that object would open a portal or something and then it'd be humans v blight. But to just have Meredeth go "oh by the way, I found that object from before that you forgot about, made a sword from it, haven't tested it out ever, I guess it brings statues to life," that didn't feel like where things were building up.

I guess thats what Anders was doing during these 3 year time gaps. Seems like many things in this game are out of your control.  

By the way, I thought this story had some rediculously stupid moments. The part where Hawke's mom dies... I just couldn't believe. You know something was going to be bad, but I wasn't expecting her to be the bride of frankensten. I was expecting it to be like Varrics quest where he was just making stuff up out of boredom. I was waiting for a "BULLSHIT" from Casandra, but sadly that never happened.   
Also when I sided with the mages, Orsino making that heel turn seemed so out of chracter. "Looks like everything is hopeless now, guess I'm a easy ass Harvester boss fight. Turns out Merridith was completely right about the bloodmages, we aren't innocent at all."  Things seemed tied together but in weird ways. Like the idol Varrics brother wanted was Meridith's sword all along, and the book Isabella stole happened to be what the Quanri wanted.  
The sibling dying at the begining to a Ogre was also very dumb. It was so early and just HEY 1 OGRE KILLED THEM real fast.
 
I feel like all of the big choices are entirely dependant on other party members, Isabella, Fenris, and Anders are able to decide a whole lot more than Hawke ever did. Why not  just let me play as Anders. He seems way more important.

Yeah with Orsino. I wiped the floor with those paladins. I don't think they even got out of the hallway. And he's talking about hopelessness. I guess they wanted everyone to experience that fight but I woulda been fine only seeing it when Im his enemy.

The Orsino corruption really made me angry. He was the beacon of reason throughout the story and The Champion was so supportive of him that he shouldn't have freaked out. We were wiping the freaking floor with the Templar army. Guess I expected too much choice from this game.
 
My female mage was romanticly involved with Anders and even she couldn't talk him out of that very impressive explosion. 

I suppose the fact that the game's overall story is driven by the people you do everything with is consistent with their "10 years in the life of this dude" approach (as opposed to the epic save-the-world one) so in that regard it makes sense, I can see your point and I feel maybe it could have been executed a bit better, but then again having no big overall story forces them to rely on these scumbag party members and their decisions for twists in the tale.  
Some of it does work very well though, I loved the Merrill arc and how she: 

It was ridiculous, and not in a good way. I could tell you why, but it would basically just be a reiteration of everything you've already said. 
 
Oh well. I went back to playing Origins.  
That was such an awesome game, I wonder if they'll ever make a sequel.

I agree that half the problems in this game comes from the fact that your companions are pricks, but I disagree that I should be able to talk them out everything. One thing I've always found silly about RPGs is the player characters uncanny ability to convince others to throw away their deeply held convictions and conform to yours. No matter how convincing of an argument you make, Anders is always going to be passionate about Mage freedom to the point of obsession. The fact that he's been merged with a corrupted spirit of justice doesn't help matters either. And with Isabella, you do have an impact on her. I never used her on my first playthrough because I thought having a second DW rogue would be redundant, and because of that we weren't very close and she never brought the book back.

Yeah the Merrill thing was nice. But it seems like the reason they let you do that is because the elves live in relative isolation and don't factor into the main story. Its like killing campers. Who's gonna know? But that's another thing. Shouldn't they factor in somehow? When they see the city on fire, shouldn't they be compelled one way or another? Or are they a metaphor for China?

i can't stand when a game gives you a choice and then that choice ends up having the opposite effect of what you intended it to have. When I get games like this I always save before big parts, and then choose the opposite and the same thing happens. If the game you are peddling to me is only offering the illusion of my choices having an affect on the game world, then tell me that. Don't tell me my choices matter when they in truth, do not.

" Oh well. I went back to playing Origins.  That was such an awesome game, I wonder if they'll ever make a sequel. "

" I agree that half the problems in this game comes from the fact that your companions are pricks, but I disagree that I should be able to talk them out everything. One thing I've always found silly about RPGs is the player characters uncanny ability to convince others to throw away their deeply held convictions and conform to yours. No matter how convincing of an argument you make, Anders is always going to be passionate about Mage freedom to the point of obsession. The fact that he's been merged with a corrupted spirit of justice doesn't help matters either. And with Isabella, you do have an impact on her. I never used her on my first playthrough because I thought having a second DW rogue would be redundant, and because of that we weren't very close and she never brought the book back. "

" I am more bothered by the fact that there is seemingly no reason for Anders to do what he did, what good could possibly come out of randomly nuking some chantry? "

For the Orsino thing. I think it could have worked if they have a templar hunter poof out and slice him up in a cutscene, leaving him no choice. But as it was, yeah, it seemed weird for him to suddenly decide he should become a monster. Meanwhile earlier in the game, he seemed to be going on a suicide mission against Qunari in order to get me to the viscount. What happened to that guy? The guy who faces an army of 7 foot horned dudes and doesn't bat an eyelash?

My main sticking point is the Deep Roads expedition.
 
Maybe I missed some dialogue 'cause I punched that rock demon guy in the face, but what the fuck was going on in the Primeval Thaig? What happened to the dwarves down there to make them Profane? Why is the lyrium down there so messed up? What is the lyrium idol? Why does it drive people nuts? As the object that is at least 33% responsible for the mage-Templar war, the lyrium idol is woefully under-explained.

I was expecting the idol to be a prison for a fade demon. In my imagined version of the game, if you have enough diplomacy you can prevent the qunari war and the mage war and by doing that, you can summon those armies to help you in the fight against this new demon. Its not Shakespear and it doesn't need to be, it just needs to account for the plotpoints they threw out there. I just, idunno. Okay, act 1 happens because you need money to restore your family. Alright. And it alludes to the lyrium idol playing a big part later in the story. Then later your sister's forced into the circle, you seemingly don't care about getting her out. Now you're losing me a bit. Qunari tensions building up. Okay, fine, this just an appetiser to get to know the key players before bringing in the enemy. Then, oh, mom's dead, random serial killer. What? So now family honor isn't a factor, and revenge isn't a factor because she's immediately avenged. What's driving Hawke to further intrude? This is where I would think you start the lyrium idol story that seemed to be the center of the plot in act 1. 

Both Meredith and Orsino are fairly shallow characters. They're both emblematic of the larger struggle between mages and Templars, but there's nothing to them beyond that. In general, the entire third act was weak until the very end. At least we got Qunari.

" @Rattle618: With Meriill though you don't have to doom the village you have some choice there. I was able to get by only killing the keeper. "

" @ryanwho: Orsino easily could have been one of my favorite characters in this game had his heel turn made more sense, I understand maybe he had the temptation of learning blood magic (despite the fact that he's a liar and/or hypocrite for doing so) but he seemed an alright guy. The he saw a few dead mages and more templars that could have been dealt with easily and had to wuss out. Him taking out those Qunari was pretty bad ass. When that cutscene happened I was like OH YEAH MAGIC IS AWESOME. "

" My main sticking point is the Deep Roads expedition.  Maybe I missed some dialogue 'cause I punched that rock demon guy in the face, but what the fuck was going on in the Primeval Thaig? What happened to the dwarves down there to make them Profane? Why is the lyrium down there so messed up? What is the lyrium idol? Why does it drive people nuts? As the object that is at least 33% responsible for the mage-Templar war, the lyrium idol is woefully under-explained. "

I say we write this game off as a very elaborate bridge towards what will be an awesome DA3 and leave it at that, cause my brain almost died trying to explain all the loose ends and weird shit.
On the other hand I did start a new playthrough right after I finished the first one, and Im not the kind of guy that replays games very often, that says something I think.

"  @ryanwho: Orsino easily could have been one of my favorite characters in this game had his heel turn made more sense, I understand maybe he had the temptation of learning blood magic (despite the fact that he's a liar and/or hypocrite for doing so) but he seemed an alright guy. The he saw a few dead mages and more templars that could have been dealt with easily and had to wuss out. Him taking out those Qunari was pretty bad ass. When that cutscene happened I was like OH YEAH MAGIC IS AWESOME. "

" @Nottle said:

" @ryanwho: Orsino easily could have been one of my favorite characters in this game had his heel turn made more sense, I understand maybe he had the temptation of learning blood magic (despite the fact that he's a liar and/or hypocrite for doing so) but he seemed an alright guy. The he saw a few dead mages and more templars that could have been dealt with easily and had to wuss out. Him taking out those Qunari was pretty bad ass. When that cutscene happened I was like OH YEAH MAGIC IS AWESOME. "

Orsino was never an alright guy.The research he talks about before turning into the Harvester was Quentin's, the man who murdered your mother. He was protecting a serial killer for years because he thought it would make the mages look bad. "

" @Cornman89 said:

" My main sticking point is the Deep Roads expedition.  Maybe I missed some dialogue 'cause I punched that rock demon guy in the face, but what the fuck was going on in the Primeval Thaig? What happened to the dwarves down there to make them Profane? Why is the lyrium down there so messed up? What is the lyrium idol? Why does it drive people nuts? As the object that is at least 33% responsible for the mage-Templar war, the lyrium idol is woefully under-explained. "

Golems of Amgarrak takes place in a Thaig full of corrupted lyrium, corrupted lyrium can alter reality.I don't think the idol was the cause of Meredith's actions, it was just there to explain her turning on you, like Orsino's bloodmagic.  "

"It was there because if she was just a skilled warrior, that's not a final boss fight. But then, I wonder if she was the final boss, originally. I kind of feel like there's another act that was supposed to happen. Not a whole new story, just one more act. Someone behind the scene exacerbating this conflict. Pink ooze under the city making everyone especially combative. Vigo the Carpathian stuck in a painting. Something. How about Anders for a final boss? "

" @Mike76x said:

" @Cornman89 said:

" My main sticking point is the Deep Roads expedition.  Maybe I missed some dialogue 'cause I punched that rock demon guy in the face, but what the fuck was going on in the Primeval Thaig? What happened to the dwarves down there to make them Profane? Why is the lyrium down there so messed up? What is the lyrium idol? Why does it drive people nuts? As the object that is at least 33% responsible for the mage-Templar war, the lyrium idol is woefully under-explained. "

Golems of Amgarrak takes place in a Thaig full of corrupted lyrium, corrupted lyrium can alter reality.I don't think the idol was the cause of Meredith's actions, it was just there to explain her turning on you, like Orsino's bloodmagic.  "

It was there because if she was just a skilled warrior, that's not a final boss fight. But then, I wonder if she was the final boss, originally. I kind of feel like there's another act that was supposed to happen. Not a whole new story, just one more act. Someone behind the scene exacerbating this conflict. Pink ooze under the city making everyone especially combative. Vigo the Carpathian stuck in a painting. Something. How about Anders for a final boss? What if he ended up having the Lyrium and thought it would play a key role in freeing the Circle? Imagine a skilled mage, with a conflicted spirit inside him, who's mad as hell, who now has this Lyrium idol. This sounds like a final boss to me. He wouldn't even need blood magic. "

" @ryanwho said:

" @Mike76x said:

" @Cornman89 said:

" My main sticking point is the Deep Roads expedition.  Maybe I missed some dialogue 'cause I punched that rock demon guy in the face, but what the fuck was going on in the Primeval Thaig? What happened to the dwarves down there to make them Profane? Why is the lyrium down there so messed up? What is the lyrium idol? Why does it drive people nuts? As the object that is at least 33% responsible for the mage-Templar war, the lyrium idol is woefully under-explained. "

Golems of Amgarrak takes place in a Thaig full of corrupted lyrium, corrupted lyrium can alter reality.I don't think the idol was the cause of Meredith's actions, it was just there to explain her turning on you, like Orsino's bloodmagic.  "

It was there because if she was just a skilled warrior, that's not a final boss fight. But then, I wonder if she was the final boss, originally. I kind of feel like there's another act that was supposed to happen. Not a whole new story, just one more act. Someone behind the scene exacerbating this conflict. Pink ooze under the city making everyone especially combative. Vigo the Carpathian stuck in a painting. Something. How about Anders for a final boss? What if he ended up having the Lyrium and thought it would play a key role in freeing the Circle? Imagine a skilled mage, with a conflicted spirit inside him, who's mad as hell, who now has this Lyrium idol. This sounds like a final boss to me. He wouldn't even need blood magic. "

Well Kirkwall has a deep history of murder and slavery. That kinda stuff tends weaken the Veil to the Fade, which might explain the demon and blood magic infestation.  At least thats how I saw it. "

Jesus Christ... DA2 is Ghost Busters 2. All of a sudden the bard class is going to be a lot more useful because they can positivly charge the veil or something.
 "Hawke, is it true what they say about this blood Mage?" 
*Joke choice* "Yes its true, this man has no dick."

" I say we write this game off as a very elaborate bridge towards what will be an awesome DA3 and leave it at that, cause my brain almost died trying to explain all the loose ends and weird shit.On the other hand I did start a new playthrough right after I finished the first one, and Im not the kind of guy that replays games very often, that says something I think. "

" @Nottle:  I don't think Meredith or Loghain can be called anti-heroes.  Loghain was a scheming, paranoid asshole.  Having him in the party and conversing with him only enforces his paranoia at foreign powers.  Meredith was just a bitch too with no redeeming factors, corrupting sword or no. "

" Both Meredith and Orsino are fairly shallow characters. They're both emblematic of the larger struggle between mages and Templars, but there's nothing to them beyond that. In general, the entire third act was weak until the very end. At least we got Qunari. "

" @Turambar: I disagree. I believe protecting your country from invasion and protecting society from the corruption of mages are both noble acts. The paranoia, stubborness, and asshole attitude are what make them anti-heroes. Thats the very definition of anti-hero, a person that does things for the greater good by using questionable methods. They've seen what happens when they let their enemies get the better of them, and they are both willing to risk lives in order to protect everyone.  Even with the sword, Meredith questioned her own motives. She even asked the maker if what she was doing was truly right. As we can see through out the entire story, she is right. Mages are easily corrupted and extremly dangerous, thats why the templars exist. But the templars make the sitiuation even more desperate for mages, thus the mages become more dangerous. It's  a positive feedback loop that has esculated into a war. "

" @Turambar said:

" @Nottle:  I don't think Meredith or Loghain can be called anti-heroes.  Loghain was a scheming, paranoid asshole.  Having him in the party and conversing with him only enforces his paranoia at foreign powers.  Meredith was just a bitch too with no redeeming factors, corrupting sword or no. "

Loghain was an ass, but he honestly thought the Orlesians were the bigger threat, and he was saving Ferelden. He was willing to sacrifice himself to make things right.Same with Meredith, she believed mages are evil too and she was saving Kirkwall. By the end she didn't seem all that wrong. "

the problem with Loghain is that he is basically a conservative who is paranoid about the world around him because of past experiences. He didn't need proof of his suspicions, he just assumed them outright, especially when Cailin was courting Empress Celene with letters. It is a geo-political conflict because he just doesn't want to be conquered again by old enemies, even though his actions cause a civil war unknowingly in his own country.
 
Loghain just picked the wrong side in the grand scheme of things, nothing more, nothing less. He is not evil at all, he just did what he thought was right because he believed it to be, same as Orsino, Meredith, Hawke, Anders, and every other character in Thedas.

I have to agree that Orsino using random blood magic at the end just so you could fight that shitty boss from Golems of Agmarrak again (even if you sided with the mages) was kind of dumb. But Anders blowing up the chantry was the perfect way to force a decision for the player, as well as to once again remind you that Mages can be assholes too, as otherwise I'm sure most players would be more inclined to side with them over the authoritarian templars. At least, that's what I think. I still sided with the Mages.
 
Personally, I'm just wondering what the ending will mean for the inevitable sequel/expansion.

" the problem with Loghain is that he is basically a conservative who is paranoid about the world around him because of past experiences. He didn't need proof of his suspicions, he just assumed them outright, especially when Cailin was courting Empress Celene with letters. It is a geo-political conflict because he just doesn't want to be conquered again by old enemies, even though his actions cause a civil war unknowingly in his own country.  Loghain just picked the wrong side in the grand scheme of things, nothing more, nothing less. He is not evil at all, he just did what he thought was right because he believed it to be, same as Orsino, Meredith, Hawke, Anders, and every other character in Thedas. "

" @Cornman89 said:  In fact, I love that aspect of the game. It forces you to make choices. You choose if you can save your surviving sibling in the deep roads or abandon them if they are even there, you choose the fate of Isabela in act 2 and Anders in act 3, you can see party members leave your side because their points of view don't match yours; that is characterization and telling a story right for once. From a gameplay standpoint its a big risk to literally kill off a companion ten minutes in, and subsequently give you the chance to kill off several just because of how you play the game. But from a story standpoint it's sublime. I agonized over killing Anders, it was a moment that made me stop the game and think. I literally stopped playing for an hour and weighed the consequences; would I let a terrorist go free? Would I let someone I know from two games, my only healer in the party, survive when three companions are calling for blood on him already, while others wanted mercy?  Did I agree with his actions and should I applaud him for what he did? It is a lose-lose situation, and that's the point of the entire endgame from a narrative standpoint. Orsino and Meredith succumb to the despair of their situations, regardless of their beliefs or convictions. It could have played out better, yes, but it makes sense given what occurs. "