BIoware wants fan input on DA3. Good idea?

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#101 Posted by Dookysharpgun (586 posts) -

If they take good suggestions about story and gameplay, you know, actual, logical ideas, and develop on them, then this will work.

But it won't be what this will lead to. Bioware will read the suggestions, and anything that people criticise, they'll rip out of the game, instead of trying to improve on certain elements or mechanics in it. Along with that, they'll market it to everyone, losing their core demographic, and however well this game might sell, we all seen what happened to DA2, in that the DLC got two major spins and they both fell flat essentially gutting the future DLC plans they had for the game.

People can say whatever they want about Bioware games nowadays, come up with petty insults or pathetic, apologetic excuses for what they've released, simple fact is, they're not sustainable anymore. ME3 would have been a train wreck in it's revised for had it not been for the MP, which is only making money of microtransactions now, DA2 crashed and burned in terms of long term usage, TOR has gotten more than it's fair share of people who ran from it. Fan suggestions won't do shit because while they're criticising the game, they should be criticising the developer for their less than stellar approach to improving the quality of their games.

Here's an idea: lean towards a more refined version of Origins and Awakening, maybe fuse the two together, cut out the unnecessary shite, *cough* mages tower *cough*, or refine it to a more easily-managed form, and retcon the second game's storyline making it about a war between Flemeth and Morrigan. I keep saying it, but the title refers to the age that began with freaking dragons returning, let's investigate the reasons behind that before we jump the shark to mage/templar/rest of world relations.

#102 Posted by Jay444111 (2441 posts) -

@AlexanderSheen said:

@Jay444111 said:

I would rather have the dumbest of fans help make DA3 than Bioware itself make it... for very good reasons.

Yeah, cause that would make things better... No it's not!

Considering what happened with DA2 and ME3 ending... I could legitimately call a random person on a phone and ask them for a ending to scifi trilogy. I would in fact get a better ending than what ME3 EVER was.

Considering that they are basically dead in the water when it comes to fanbase, no one will touch their games again until they admit they suck... which in reality, they completely do. They are, at best, a JRPG dev that tricked people into thinking it is a WRPG dev studio... sure, sounds harsh. But considering Bioware has NEVER done meaningful choice. I wouldn't trust them with writing anymore. I just wouldn't for the sane fact that they truly cannot do it.

There is more writing stability in the Kingdom Hearts games then there is in their own fucking series at this point.

#103 Posted by CaptainCharisma (339 posts) -

As much as Bioware has disappointed me lately, I don't think they're idiots. They're just asking for fan input. I think some people are taking this a bit too literally. If something seems unrealistic or just dumb, they will ignore it. There are always exceptions but asking for input from a fan base that remembers your glory days isn't the worst idea. It's not like they're asking this question on the Dragon Ball Z forum or something where the interests don't correlate. People will just let them know what they like and want and Bioware will take a glance over it. If anything, they probably wont even look at all the input and just blame the fans if Dragon Age 3 fails. Which should be hard to do since all they need is another Dragon Age: Origins.

#104 Posted by AlexanderSheen (4929 posts) -

@Jay444111 said:

@AlexanderSheen said:

@Jay444111 said:

I would rather have the dumbest of fans help make DA3 than Bioware itself make it... for very good reasons.

Yeah, cause that would make things better... No it's not!

Considering what happened with DA2 and ME3 ending... I could legitimately call a random person on a phone and ask them for a ending to scifi trilogy. I would in fact get a better ending than what ME3 EVER was.

Considering that they are basically dead in the water when it comes to fanbase, no one will touch their games again until they admit they suck... which in reality, they completely do. They are, at best, a JRPG dev that tricked people into thinking it is a WRPG dev studio... sure, sounds harsh. But considering Bioware has NEVER done meaningful choice. I wouldn't trust them with writing anymore. I just wouldn't for the sane fact that they truly cannot do it.

There is more writing stability in the Kingdom Hearts games then there is in their own fucking series at this point.

Just because they chose the wrong method to handle the ending of ME3 and because the design choices in DA2 means they are terrible and everything they do suck? This sounds like just a nerd rage.

Remember the times when Bioware was considered an outstanding game developer? (Yeah, there was a time like that). Everything was needed to ruin that, is a couple of bad choices and overly sensitive people with loud voices. Give BioWare the benefit of the doubt, will you? EA tried to be appeal to a wider audience and it backfired, it happens.

Back to the writing, BioWare already have writers, who got hired because they got talent. It doesn't reflect well, considering the hierarchy in the development process. And random people with unknown background and unknown qualifications would be just another bad choice.

#105 Posted by JCGamer (659 posts) -

Kind of makes think they have no solid idea on how to go forward with this series--not a good sign.

#106 Posted by kyokushin_nanaya (40 posts) -

I don't think it's a good idea. As the idiom goes, "Too many chefs spoil the broth", you would have to cater for the sheer noise and feedback. However, even by some miracle they did, there's no real point since people are never ever happy to be begin with.

I feel that the main problem with Bioware and Dragon Age is that it lacks maturity. It seems that they lack confidence in their player base so they have to broaden its appeal. That's totally fine, but please don't let it hamstring almost everything else! While DA2 and the Witcher 2 (yes, that comparison again) are very different games, what struck me was Witcher wasn't afraid of going: "Well your decisions have realistic and grounded consequences, so deal with it.", DA2 was dancing in and out of the waters and finally decided to jump into a pool of bubbling acid, only to surface as a cindered skeleton of a story.

#107 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -

Hey Bioware, too late.

Witcher 2 and Skyrim do both extremes very well. Don't need DA3.

#108 Posted by Sparklykiss (1947 posts) -

Now I'm thinking of Mega Man Legends 3 and my heart is breaking. :(

Let's just make Dragon Age 3 a game that caters to a particular group instead of trying to make it something for every person in the world because that just doesn't work.

Moderator
#109 Posted by Veektarius (4585 posts) -

Fans won't be happy if they get exactly what they asked for. They will only be happy if they have expectations, and those expectations were defied, but matched or exceeded. As such, if you take fan ideas, you will not make them happy. At best you can get an idea of what's too obvious, and the sort of tone that your fans are looking for.

#110 Posted by DillonWerner (1522 posts) -

I don't think fans will be happy unless it goes back to Dragon Age: Origins, and I don't think Bioware is willing to do that, so either way this isn't going to make fans enjoy the game more than Dragon Age 2

#111 Posted by haggis (1677 posts) -

I have a feeling they're simply covering their asses this time, especially after the fallout from DA2 and ME3. That said, I think they will listen. I'm pretty sure they have already looked closely at the criticisms of DA2. Will that mean they're going to go back to DA:O? Probably not all the way, but they might pull off something more like ME3, which I think was a fantastic compromise between the original Mass Effect and ME2. Putting disagreements over the ending aside, BioWare listened to what people wanted with the gameplay, and I think they did a decent job of delivering.
 
Note: I actually did like DA2, despite its many issues. But compared to the first ... so disappointing. I think they've learned their lessons over the last few years. Let's just hope they don't overdo it.

#112 Edited by Rawson (136 posts) -

The problem with Bioware is that they're going to listen to the people who are still, somehow, Bioware fans. These people are blind sycophants. They would be better off listening to the people who fondly remember Bioware's games before the studio started putting out utter shit. Otherwise, they will run into the same problems time and time again. One good thing they could try doing would be to not call people "4chan trolls" for daring to dislike their magnum opus of Whedon-isms, Dragon Age 2.

#113 Edited by Lamashtu (254 posts) -

Story stuff I'm not sure if that's the right approach Bioware should take. At least, they shouldn't be taking advice on specifics. I mean, as much as people give George Lucas shit about the prequels, if he gave the fans what they wanted word for word, those movies would end up as something resembling this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn_J425eo3Q

Now what Bioware *should* be taking advice on is big picture stuff that relates to the gameplay, namely:

-No re-using environments.

-If the fully-voiced hero with a name comes at the cost of the variety of dialogue options and approaches that DA:O offered, then it is not worth it.

-There is no two ways about it: The combat in DA2 was dumbed down. Seriously EA and Bioware, even casual gamers aren't as stupid as you make them out to be. They can handle complexity as long as you do a good job of incentivising learning the mechanics (which DA: O did an admirable job of doing).

-Bioware, don't be that attached to your dialogue wheel. It is far from perfect. Instead, come down from your ivory tower to see what Eidos Montreal and CD Projekt Red have done to improve on that mechanic.

-Waves are okay, but introduce them in such a way that they are not irritating (i.e. don't make positioning totally and completely pointless).

#114 Edited by Roger778 (953 posts) -

I think this is excellent news. Bioware knows that it has many fans who either hated or were really disappointed in Dragon Age 2, and Mass Effect 3, and are asking for fan feedback on how to make their next game. I'm happy about that. Bioware is my favorite game developer, and they gave me the best game trilogy ever (Mass Effect)

Here's my suggestions, Truth be told, as much as I really enjoyed Dragon Age 2, I think they need to make the next Dragon Age game very similar to Origins, because it truly was an epic Role-playing game. Also, (I think people are going to hate me for this), don't make the lead character silent. Give him/her a voice, and a great personality.

Finally, I want Morrigan to come back. She was a really fascinating and complex character, and I missed her in Dragon Age 2.

I hope I didn't anger or offend everyone on my ideas for the next game.

#115 Posted by Krakn3Dfx (2484 posts) -

I'll go ahead and get my script mailed out today.

Sneak peak: The Normandy sling shots around the sun and ends up in the 9th century. We find out dragons are the early ancestors of the Reapers, and eventually are cast off world using powerful magical forces. Shepard has to bring a dragon back to the future to speak to the Reapers and stop the invasion.

Boom.

#116 Posted by glyn (382 posts) -

@JeanLuc said:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2012/05/18/wary-of-fan-demands-bioware-crowdsourcing-dragon-age-3-development/

Its seems BioWare is trying really hard to win back its fans. First we have the ME3 Extended Cut and now they seem to be taking in fan ideas for Dragon Age 3.

“Beginning today, we’ll do a series of questions and discussions around Dragon Age. Consider this a conversation between fans, the community team, and the developers. Everyone at BioWare is incredibly excited about the future of the franchise but we’re interested in what you have to say. Every month, we will discuss a topic or question about Dragon Age and game development. You will have one week to post your thoughts, desires, and hopes before we close the thread for review. Moderators and developers will pop into the thread to chat every now and again, so keep an eye out.
These questions and discussions are not only for future games, but other potential products like novels, animated features, pen and paper RPGs, and comics – all of which offer us opportunities to expand on parts of the world.”

I'm not so sure about this. Gameplay feedback and ideas from fans I'm totally ok with. Understanding what it is fans are looking for in the gameplay is a good idea since BioWare clearly has no idea themselves. Now, asking fans for full on story ideas? I personally think that's a bad idea. Yes I think the Mass Effect 3 ending was bad, but not because it didn't have what I wanted in it, but because the writing was lazy and poor. Stories created by committee rarely work because you end up with too many people all saying what should be in it. You ether end up with a jumbled mess of too many ideas or something super generic that takes zero risks. I understand that BioWare has been in a corner of late, but I don't think this is exactly the answer.

All they need is to employ a real author / story writer. Rather than some video-gamey bull----

Take the original characters from Dragon Age 1- and continue that storyline, with all of your choices intact.

Make it an open world and bobs your uncle.

#117 Posted by glyn (382 posts) -

@Korolev said:

Fans often don't know what they want. They are very good at noticing bad things, but very often their ideas for what would be "good" fall flat if they were actually implemented. BioWare shouldn't solicit fan ideas - they should just test their own ideas against fans, which is what Valve and Blizzard do.

Besides, I have the suspicion that the lackluster quality of DAII and the ending of ME3 wasn't to do with directionless development and a lack of good ideas - it was due to a lack of time, money and probably poor management. DAII was almost certainly a product that was pushed out of development well before its time.

The best thing BioWare can do? Resist EA attempts to turn it into another Treyarch or Infinite Ward. The need to go the Blizzard path or the Valve Path - products will be done when they are done! The problem, I think, is the fact that the leadership at EA want annualized franchises from BioWare. They think the BioWare name is gold, and as long as they put out enough "BioWare" games, profits will remain good. They don't realize (or maybe they just don't care) that they'll end up destroying the BioWare reputation.

Why do the idiots working on the games not stop to think... hmmmm hang on why are we putting out this shizzle.

Surely someone must say something, or do all employees bury their head in the sand and collect their pay check, in fear they will upset the apple cart and get sacked.

#118 Edited by Wrighteous86 (3735 posts) -

@AlexanderSheen said:

Back to the writing, BioWare already have writers, who got hired because they got talent. It doesn't reflect well, considering the hierarchy in the development process. And random people with unknown background and unknown qualifications would be just another bad choice.

Wasn't that Jennifer Hepler lady a fan-fiction writer before getting signed on? Someone that wrote awkward romance shit? I think a lack of strong writers (and pandering to the creepiest section of their fanbase [see Talimancers]) ruined Bioware as much as shortened dev times.

#119 Posted by carminescarf (59 posts) -

Bring back the soundtrack of Origins.

Make a setting that people want to explore. Rocky old Kirkwall was a snooze and felt like a prison.

Make the characters likable again. (cough) Nathaniel...

#120 Posted by Example1013 (4834 posts) -

Dear BioWare: really like Dragon Age Origins, you guys ever gonna make a sequel?

Thanks, Example1013

#121 Posted by Silvergun (297 posts) -

@Krakn3Dfx said:

I'll go ahead and get my script mailed out today.

Sneak peak: The Normandy sling shots around the sun and ends up in the 9th century. We find out dragons are the early ancestors of the Reapers, and eventually are cast off world using powerful magical forces. Shepard has to bring a dragon back to the future to speak to the Reapers and stop the invasion.

Boom.

I'd totally play a Star Trek IV RPG.

Also, going to the community for ideas really is just pandering. I'm sure Bioware has plenty of people with ideas that are just as good as anything the community will come up with. I mean hell, look at Mass Effect. It's a story about a space marine who has to save the galaxy from evil aliens. It's about the biggest cliche you can find in sci-fi, but because they executed it so well (especially in ME2), it became something really remarkable. Dragon Age 2 on the other hand is a prime example of something that's high concept and poorly executed, and is garbage as a result. If they want to do another story about a chosen hero who needs to save the world from a dragon/demon/wizard, then more power to them. If they do a good job, I'm sure people will love it.

#122 Posted by Tarsier (1056 posts) -

i think first bioware needs to come out and actually admit their mistakes with dragon age 2... the entire game was shitty decision after shitty decision. their 'apology' was basically a 'the fans are wrong the game was great but we only had 8 months so what the heck did u expect' kind of thing. which was kind of gross. id prefer them to just come out, john carmack style, and say 'we fucked up'. because until then i dont even know if they have the ability to sort between good and bad fan feedback..

#123 Posted by darkness625 (5 posts) -

they sure as hell never listen to fans on DA2 and ME3, why should you believe they'll listen to feedback on DA3.

#124 Posted by iceman228433 (579 posts) -

This does kind of seem like a bad idea

#125 Posted by Blimble (302 posts) -

Really just sounds like marketing. Maybe we'll see one or two things added and them constantly pointing out they listened and added it but I doubt it will have a real effect.

#126 Posted by Thunderbringer (2 posts) -

They should probably just make the game they want to make and put real effort into it.

Though if it doesn't have solid rpg mechanics and combat, I probably won't care. I don't need 50 putty soldiers jumping out from nowhere, randomly swarming my mages in wave-after-wave combat again. Neither do I need them to attempt to 'fix' that problem by making the combat incredibly simple and easy (even more so than it was in DA2).

I loved the combat! There was strategy it was a lot like knights of the old republic. Perhaps they can integrate it with a Skyrim doctrine but do not mess with my DA2 mechanics!

But I will admit more level design--less music. All you need for music is a nice budget a few solid songs, and a bunch of fillers and bam! instant release lots of spare extras from old recycled games. Whereas level design WAAS SOOO REPETATIVE in a world where you could have tons of fun. I wish there were more enemies however, and you could have more squads. Appeal to those follower nuts who have 7 followers on skyrim. Make it a team combat style fps realtime rpg strategy like lotr. but you have to pause a lot. (yes boring I know.) But then like RISE you would have a lot of mechanics like fighting a ton of enemies. Perfect combo.

#127 Posted by Thunderbringer (2 posts) -

Bioware is dead to me... Thanks EA.

No Bethesda will buy them out. ActualY Bioware declare bankrupcy or something join Bethesda. Your games will become more than Skyrim. THE ULTIMATE VIDEO GAME RPG. Much more addicting than skyrim but much better story. I think Bethesda is itching for more big name titles anyway. They need another two big titles besides TES and Fallout.

#128 Posted by Xeiphyer (5594 posts) -

Fan feedback means a lack of a singular creative vision on the game, which is usually pretty bad. Although I guess it depends on what they're doing with the feedback and how far along development is.

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