Kamitani responds to Kotaku criticism of the characters.

#1 Posted by Icemael (6312 posts) -

The Kotaku article: http://kotaku.com/game-developers-really-need-to-stop-letting-teenage-boy-472724616

This is the newest trailer for Dragon's Crown, the Vanillaware-developed game that will be out this year for PS3 and Vita. It features the sorceress, one character from the game. As you can see, the sorceress was designed by a 14-year-old boy. Perhaps game development studios should stop hiring teenagers? At least they're cheap, I guess.

The director's response on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=429947370434109&set=a.377685925660254.85466.100002565488533&type=1&ref=nf

This is my favourite developer-journalist exchange since Hideki Kamiya's "Do you eat shit?".

#2 Edited by JZ (2125 posts) -

Burn!! I love it

#3 Posted by Hailinel (23887 posts) -

Beautiful!

#4 Edited by Tennmuerti (8002 posts) -

Man those dwarfs are bad fucking ass. That is actually a great piece of artwork.

Dear lord that's what passes for Kotaku "articles" these days?

#5 Posted by EXTomar (4497 posts) -

Now this is a proper response to criticism.

Online
#6 Edited by Hailinel (23887 posts) -

Man those dwarfs are bad fucking ass. That is actually a great piece of artwork.

Dear lord that's what passes for Kotaku "articles" these days?

Some things never change.

#7 Posted by Brodehouse (9585 posts) -

Nothing like getting upset at the hyper stylized art of a game that seems to exist purely as an excuse for hyper stylized art.

Hey guys, why is there so much blood in Dragon Age? It's almost like it's a major stylistic decision. Also what's with all the juxtaposition between grand architecture and destroyed rubble in Gears of War?

#8 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

Man those dwarfs are bad fucking ass. That is actually a great piece of artwork.

Dear lord that's what passes for Kotaku "articles" these days?

The topic of sexism is a goldmine at the moment. That is why people really need to stop with this bullshit and call every bit of piece sexist....

#9 Edited by fetchfox (1221 posts) -

That is one awful "article". It reads more like a butthurt tweat.
So dwarf bears on bears? Rule 34 I guess, whatever floats your boat man.

#10 Edited by CaLe (3911 posts) -

That's a pretty sick burn. I think a lot of Westerners don't realize that most Japanese women have zero problems with how women are portrayed in Japanese media. In many cases they are complicit.

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#11 Posted by Darji (5294 posts) -

@cale said:

That's a pretty sick burn. I think a lot of Westerners don't realize that most Japanese women have zero problem with how women are portrayed in Japanese media. In many cases they are complicit.

Yeah the culture is totally different. they don't get offended by every little piece of shit. Instead they are making fun of it.

#12 Posted by psylah (2162 posts) -

I love it.

Both the art and the response.

Kotaku continues to be the bottom of the barrel when it comes to "journalism".

#13 Posted by sub_o (836 posts) -

Kotaku has degenerated into tabloid-like. I guess it's really hard to earn moneys thru online gaming news sites nowadays.

#14 Posted by hinderk (685 posts) -

So his response to criticism that he is immature is to imply that person giving criticism is gay. That will show him!

#15 Posted by Hailinel (23887 posts) -

@hinderk said:

So his response to criticism that he is immature is to imply that person giving criticism is gay. That will show him!

It's not an implication that he's gay. He simply responded to criticism of oversexualized characters of one sort by responding with another.

#16 Posted by mellotronrules (1172 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@hinderk said:

So his response to criticism that he is immature is to imply that person giving criticism is gay. That will show him!

It's not an implication that he's gay. He simply responded to criticism of oversexualized characters of one sort by responding with another.

yeah, i'm not sure this is a sick burn. the kotaku article basically said, "you're immature because you have women falling out of their dresses." to which the artist seemingly replies with, "well, here are some bears since you like dudes." seems like everyone's a class act in this bunch.

#17 Edited by CaLe (3911 posts) -

@hinderk said:

So his response to criticism that he is immature is to imply that person giving criticism is gay. That will show him!

I think it's more of a commentary on the fact that Westerners typically prefer muscle-bound macho men to scantily clad females.

Online
#18 Posted by hinderk (685 posts) -

@hailinel: Could be wrong but "The art of the direction which he likes was prepared" combined with the picture sure make it seem like he is calling the kotaku dude gay.

#19 Posted by Hailinel (23887 posts) -

@hinderk said:

@hailinel: Could be wrong but "The art of the direction which he likes was prepared" combined with the picture sure make it seem like he is calling the kotaku dude gay.

Or he could be making a crack at the widely perceived western taste in preferred male characters (i.e.: The overmuscled power fantasy).

#20 Posted by mellotronrules (1172 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@hinderk said:

@hailinel: Could be wrong but "The art of the direction which he likes was prepared" combined with the picture sure make it seem like he is calling the kotaku dude gay.

Or he could be making a crack at the widely perceived western taste in preferred male characters (i.e.: The overmuscled power fantasy).

it's possible. but seeing as it's embracing topless dudes, with one winking (well established in the tradition of pinup girls), and in direct response to tacit allegations of oversexualization...i certainly think the implication is there.

i mean it's clear the devs are riffing on frazetta and the paperback-fantasy art style- but anatomy is already exaggerated in that style. watching videos of this game in action, it's pretty clear their further stylizing is arguably overkill. but whatevs.

#21 Edited by psylah (2162 posts) -

@hinderk said:

@hailinel: Could be wrong but "The art of the direction which he likes was prepared" combined with the picture sure make it seem like he is calling the kotaku dude gay.

He might as well go low-brow, since it would be impossible to convince these "journalists" otherwise since they're just sensationalists who cling to the most minute perceived slight in social media nowadays.

GK knew he had to go hard or go home, and he went with HARD.

#22 Posted by AlexanderSheen (4929 posts) -

Wait... that one paragraph in the OP is the whole article and not just a part of it? Hmm... he says "the sorceress was designed by a 14-year-old boy" so... maybe this is a clever response that deliberately sounds like something written by a 14-year-old boy. Kotaku, you are so meta!

As for the female characters, their proportions doesn't offend me, I just find them stupid looking.

#23 Edited by Oldirtybearon (4594 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@hinderk said:

So his response to criticism that he is immature is to imply that person giving criticism is gay. That will show him!

It's not an implication that he's gay. He simply responded to criticism of oversexualized characters of one sort by responding with another.

Dude, it's a pretty clever "you're gay" joke.

#24 Posted by Hailinel (23887 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@hinderk said:

So his response to criticism that he is immature is to imply that person giving criticism is gay. That will show him!

It's not an implication that he's gay. He simply responded to criticism of oversexualized characters of one sort by responding with another.

Dude, it's a pretty clever "you're gay" joke.

Or you could be right. :P

#25 Posted by geirr (2476 posts) -

@icemael said:

The Kotaku article: http://kotaku.com/game-developers-really-need-to-stop-letting-teenage-boy-472724616

This is the newest trailer for Dragon's Crown, the Vanillaware-developed game that will be out this year for PS3 and Vita. It features the sorceress, one character from the game. As you can see, the sorceress was designed by a 14-year-old boy. Perhaps game development studios should stop hiring teenagers? At least they're cheap, I guess.

The director's response on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=429947370434109&set=a.377685925660254.85466.100002565488533&type=1&ref=nf

This is my favourite developer-journalist exchange since Hideki Kamiya's "Do you eat shit?".

That is too perfect.

#26 Posted by LikeaSsur (1495 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@hinderk said:

@hailinel: Could be wrong but "The art of the direction which he likes was prepared" combined with the picture sure make it seem like he is calling the kotaku dude gay.

Or he could be making a crack at the widely perceived western taste in preferred male characters (i.e.: The overmuscled power fantasy).

We've now reached the stage where we read WAY too much into things, grasping for any straw we see.

#27 Posted by Nekroskop (2786 posts) -

I love it! Gawker-type journalism is the scum of the Internet and they got what they deserved. I wish that western developers had balls like that.

#28 Edited by Hailinel (23887 posts) -

@likeassur: I may have been off-base, but that was hardly straw-grasping.

#29 Edited by Taku128 (793 posts) -
#30 Edited by Hailinel (23887 posts) -

@taku128 said:

http://kotaku.com/the-real-problem-with-that-controversial-sexy-video-ga-478120280

The author of the Kotaku article wrote a response piece. I usually can't stand Kotaku but I'm 100% with them on this one.

It's kind of silly that it took this for Jason to apologize for calling the artist a fourteen-year-old, though. Eye for an eye, I guess.

There's a problem with sexism in the industry, as games journalists are fond of pointing out every twenty seconds, there's no disputing that. But I do think that getting worked up over an exaggerated character design in a game filled with exaggerated character designs of all sorts is pushing it.

#31 Edited by McGhee (6094 posts) -

Hilarious.

Also. Fuck this Kotaku guy. I'm so fucking sick of this bullshit. All people like seeing better looking people: men or women. I'd rather see a fucking hot woman than an ugly one. I'd also rather see a muscled up dude more than a flabby one. Because I fucking work out and I can admire the male physique too. These are characters in a brawler, figures meant to be attractive power fantasies. Well, beautiful women are really fucking powerful. None of the characters here are meant to be thoughtful representations of anything. It also should piss off any beautiful women that dress provocatively. Guess what, some holier-than-though douche bags, male and female, think you are caricature-sluts, not thoughtful women. Please dress very conservatively because they said so and god help you if you have large breasts. They are apparently embarrassed at the existence of those breasts.

#32 Edited by Brodehouse (9585 posts) -

The second article could hardly make me more annoyed.

Jason Schreier likes Dragon's Crown, or things that are like Dragon's Crown. But things like Dragon's Crown embarasses him. Rather than cease to like things like Dragon's Crown, thus not being embarasses by it anymore, he's going to continue liking it and continue being embarassed by his own decisions. Who is responsible for this? Jason Schreier? Hahaha, no, Vanillaware. It's up to them to make the things he likes the way he likes them.

Oh and the comments, my God. My favorite is that hypersexualized ladies, well somehow that disempowers women. I guess it repealed the fourteenth amendment or made it so they can't have their own opinions. Hypersexualized, super masculine male characters however, _that's what men want_. It's wrong to assume that women want to be traditionally attractive or powerful or whatever. Assuming that men want to be attractive and powerful, well that goes without saying. Of course all men want that. It's not right to have sexualized ladies because it holds women who don't want to be sexualized to standards they don't want. Men, _it's not the same_, they WANT to be judged based on the size of their muscles and their ability to do violence. Even Jason Schreier is a part of the problem, as he's a man and admits Dragon's Crown is a power fantasy designed for him. Jason Schreier wants to be a huge shirtless dwarf, as this a power fantasy designed for men, and thus it privileges him over disempowered female players.

It's so frustrating to watch well meaning people put the horse before the cart every single time.

#33 Edited by Bocam (3670 posts) -

According to Arthur Gies implying someone is gay equals calling them a Fag. Isn't that a more offensive thought process?

Though I love when people don't realize there's this thing called cultural differences

#34 Edited by jdh5153 (1034 posts) -

Kotaku's response to this is better.

#35 Edited by Hailinel (23887 posts) -

@bocam said:

According to Arthur Gies implying someone is gay equals calling them a Fag. Isn't that a more offensive thought process?

Though I love when people don't realize there's this thing called cultural differences

I don't think I've ever read a statement from Gies that wasn't horribly misinformed or driven by an obvious agenda.

Schreier is playing the victim now, which is just cute. I would go so far as to qualify it as precious. Like @brodehouse said, he's basically cornered himself by refusing to let go of something that embarrasses him.

#36 Edited by rebgav (1429 posts) -

"I'm sorry that I called you a child; I meant to call you a misogynist. (Ignore that it took me two weeks and public humiliation to decide that this is an Important Issue rather than just me being a snarky cunt in a trailer description.)"

#37 Edited by Demoskinos (14562 posts) -

@Bocam Woah! Now that...is like way over the line for Mr.Gies that thought process is fucking disturbing

#38 Edited by AlexanderSheen (4929 posts) -

@bocam said:

Though I love when people don't realize there's this thing called cultural differences

I hate it. Especially the "Oh Japan..." comments.

#39 Edited by SuperFusion (43 posts) -

Jason's rebuttal is just a flimsy attempt to justify his atrocious insult. He should have apologized, said he learned a few new things from his mistakes and maybe attempt to open a discussion with the president of Vanillaware. He did do that and it is commendable, but the focus of this new article was just him trying to justify his insult.

#40 Edited by On1inepersona (119 posts) -

Kamitani's response guarantees my purchase of this game day one.

#41 Edited by mellotronrules (1172 posts) -

i dunno. i just can't take the developer seriously after seeing the game in motion.

it's so clear this character is visuallly designed around her boobs. it's just unintelligent, inartistic, and unremarkable. and their dwarven response kind of proved kotaku's point- which is unfortunate, because kotaku's message wasn't especially sophisticated either.

#42 Posted by TheHumanDove (2523 posts) -

gamez journalists are the heroes that gotham deserves

#kony2012

#43 Edited by AlexW00d (6183 posts) -

@alexandersheen said:

@bocam said:

Though I love when people don't realize there's this thing called cultural differences

I hate it. Especially the "Oh Japan..." comments.

Just because some things are different in different countries doesn't make them ok. This is probably the worst defense for this kind of stuff. The annotations on the picture in the 2nd Kotaku article linked somewhere above hit the nail on the head really. Boobs the size of small cars, and the face of a 12 year old, just because it's something that is fairly common in Japan doesn't stop it from being borderline paedophilia.

E: Another thing, in the middle east Woman are treated like second class citizens - way more than anyone is in the US - you wouldn't chalk that up to cultural differences would you?

#44 Edited by Milkman (16526 posts) -

Wow, can't believe the response this is getting here. Or maybe I can. Apparently, "U GAY BRO?" is the equivalent of a "sick burn" now. You guys should watch more wrestling. You'd think those John Cena and The Rock guys are a laugh riot!

The developer is a moron.

#45 Edited by EXTomar (4497 posts) -

Well this is "a teenage kid" vs Kotaku. Was maturity expected?

Online
#46 Edited by cloudymusic (1051 posts) -
@mellotronrules said:

it's so clear this character is visuallly designed around her boobs. it's just unintelligent, inartistic, and unremarkable. and their dwarven response kind of proved kotaku's point- which is unfortunate, because kotaku's message wasn't especially sophisticated either.

I don't normally mind sexed-up characters if they're done tastefully, but this just feels like shameless pandering.

Kotaku's "article" sucked, but the developer's "LOL UR GAY" response was even worse, nice art aside.

#47 Posted by djou (858 posts) -

@milkman: Totally agree. I was going to buy this game but I plan to skip it now. Just because Jason Schreier doesn't want to see the tits of some grotesquely proportioned sprite bounce around he wants to see a bunch of oiled dudes dog piled? Vanillaware's art design has always bordered on tasteless and this has completely soured me. There are plenty of game bros spouting that type of homophonia in America, I guess I should expect the same in Japan.

#48 Posted by Bocam (3670 posts) -

@alexw00d: Except in Japan looking young and being perceived as "pure" is praised while the opposite is frowned upon. It may be wrong but it's still a case of cultural differences.

#49 Edited by Icemael (6312 posts) -

The Kotaku response is dumb. Sexism in the gaming industry is completely irrelevant to the value of the games themselves. A game developer's only job is to make as enjoyable a game as possible, and a game critic's only job is to analyze the ways in which the developer has succeeded or failed at this. Moralization should never enter into the picture. The character designs may certainly be criticized: for instance, I myself am not that fond of the Sorceress' oversized breasts, but the problem I have with them is that they are ugly, not that "they perpetuate a boy's club mentality" and "boo-hoo some women feel uncomfortable going to events where there are booth babes" or whatever -- I mean what the fuck man, I thought we played games to have a good time and not to demonstrate to others how tolerant, sensitive, progressive and feminist we are.

The stupidity of the whole business becomes especially apparent if one imagines criticizing classical paintings in this way, particularly in their historical context. Take this Falero painting from 1878:

"An absolutely stunning work of art. The composition, the lighting, the attention to detail... everything is incredible. But on second thought, it's an image of hot nude women created by a man in a male-dominated industry, and women are really oppressed right now (they don't even have the right to vote!) so actually fuck this painting, one star out of five."

Or imagine applying these retarded standards to porn -- you could never watch a porno again! Or why not our fantasies! "This daydream I'm having about smoking hot nymphs who are into me is not equal enough, I am objectifying these poor imaginary women! I'd better start fantasizing about strong women in leadership positions instead."

#50 Edited by CaLe (3911 posts) -

I still don't feel like it was a 'you're gay' response from Kamitani. Maybe I'm wrong, but I immediately felt it was more to do with Westerners preferring muscular males.

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