As a Conan The Barbarian fan, I feel like bitching about the character designs in this B-fantasy-esque videogame is kinda dumb. But I also feel like shooting back a response to imply that the person complaining about it is gay for bitching about it was much, much dumber.

This whole thing is dumb and not in the good way that Dragon's Crown makes me feel.

Check out the artwork for some of the female bosses of Odin Sphere as well as the fox girls in Oboro Muramasa. Also not everyone judges maturity the same, and I hold no antipathy towards those that enjoys large breasts. (Though I'm personally more smitten by other features when judging the female form.) But seeing infatuation with big breasts as immature isn't exactly a crazy thought.

@thefreeman said:

Again, that's not what the image implies. It's a play on a stereotype the Japanese have of the western male audience's aesthetic tastes, more specifically, a love of macho men on a visual, not sexual, level.

How can you be sure that is what the image means?

Same way others are absolutely certain it's implying homosexuality. But factor in what Japanese games have done to appeal to the western market in the past, and it seems the more likely choice.

@pepsiman or someone else that has spent a long time in Japan can hopefully answer this, but is the usage of one's sexuality as a tool for public mockery a common thing in Japan, compared to, say, the US?

white straight males really grind my gears

A dumb response to a dumb article.

I like it.

I feel like if it was a response to the western appreciation of big burly men, it also would have included, like, big huge ridiculous armor and guns and shit, ala Gears of War. Because that's what you often see in western videogames.

Making all the dudes naked, embracing, winking, etc makes it seem to me like a pretty clear jab using homosexuality as a joke, but I guess without the artist's say we can't know for sure.

@icemael:

That art is actual art and also happens to have real women. Not weird jiggly jello monsters. It also has a fat stalin looking guy and a really old nekked lady and some sort of corpse. And is generally bad ass. The argument that either all tits are sexist or pandering or no tits are sexist or pandering is entirely bullshit. Especially considering they seems to respond by saying "Well that's probably because you're a gay dwarf lover, you weirdo."

No, the art you linked is bad ass, the response from the developer shows some bad ass characters, the game is just pandering bullshit. It's not an "artistic representation of sensuality and the erotic female figure." It's not appreciating anything, it's selling to boys who get hardons from just about any nake women.

Also, I'd go so far as to say that technically speaking, the piece you shared is much more impressive as well.

On top of that, the character design is so ridiculously repetitive and generic. There's nothing interesting about a women with big tits, and exposed thighs the size of Africa. It's gross, in more ways than one.

It looks a LOT like gay art to me, says the gay guy. A bunch of naked burly men playfully hanging out on each other's backs and tugging their awesome bushy beards? I mean, it's a pretty awesome piece of work. But it definitely comes across to me as something designed to appeal to gay guys. Not that it's exactly working for me, but hey, dwarves are super awesome in my book.

Also, if they are saying it's about the "white strongman" complex thing, that's kind of a silly thing to say considering the East has the yin to that yang in the form of a "frail white girl" obsession. Even the guys are frail white girls. Saying "Psh, you probably just wanted generic western ideals!" when you're pandering to your audience of 13 year old minds as much as Gears of Musculature is to 16-21 year old minds. And at least they toned that down after a couple games, and had a very diverse cast that eventually includes some pretty cool (AND non-white) ladies.

Side note: I want a game based on cheeky burly gay dwarves. Not at all being ironic, I think it could be adorable and awesome.

And jello women literally make me queezy. Not for moral reasons, I just think it's super gross. And I swing both ways. I enjoy a lady with decent sized assets. The east just goes too far with it.

PS, women being okay with that kind of crap doesn't make it less crap, it just means that they aren't total idiots basing their self worth on what a bunch of jerk-offs made. No der they don't care. I care because I want more interesting games to play, not because I'm offended for women. I think it's lazy and just bad character design and the reasons are plain and evident. Acting like it's not there is fuckin' stupid.

I think it's worth sharing Kamitani's reply to all of the hoopla around his jesting post. It has been added to a Kotaku article explaining why Schreier said what he did.

UPDATE: Kamitani sent me a message this afternoon, in Japanese. Wired's Chris Kohler helped me translate: "While the picture of the dwarfs was meant to be a lighthearted joke, after it became bigger than I thought it would, I reflected on the rashness of it. I am sorry. I have no hard feelings about the article."

[Article]

Blah blah blah, American video game journalists blah blah blah. Game developers are free to design their characters any way they want. Don't like it, screw off and just don't buy it or play it. I'm tired of this slut shaming mentality so many people seem to be adopting recently. People seem to forget that Vanillaware also designed Momohime, one of the prettiest, yet supremely flat chested girls I've seen in any video game. No one said anything about her though...

I think he's more or less going..I can draw anyone nude...I don't really care...The Dwarf in the actual game is almost nude anyway...

A reasonable resolution to an otherwise ridiculous internet shitstorm. Good for Kamitani, he's a dapper gent.

I think the art in Dragon's Crown looks amazing. I love how it's stylized so much it ends up looking silly.

But I don't get how having a character with big tits is somehow sexist. I see people comment on twitter about how this or Skullgirls is sexist because boobs. Are they implying that women should feel ashamed if they have large breasts because it's sexist? Or is it sexist because men like breasts? But if that's the case then why do women get breast implants? I'm imagining these people walking down the street and seeing some lady with big tits and a low cut shirt and losing their damn minds over how sexist she's being and how much of a male power fantasy she is.

And what about female artists who draw cheesecake art about women with big boobs? Is it still a male power fantasy when Julie Bell draws some lady barbarian in a chain bikini is fighting a dragon, or how the lead animator for Skullgirls is a woman who likes drawing scantily clad girls?

How about artists draw whatever the hell they want and if you don't like it don't look at it.

Either of you please go ahead and list any other character in the game who, while casting even the most powerful of his/her attacks, manages to evoke only the faintest of gentle facial expressions, whilst gently unveiling erogenous body parts in the middle of a fight.

Maybe "vulnerable" isn't the right word, but that certainly doesn't sound assertive to me, never mind warrior-like. Maybe you prefer "delicate". Let's go with that then.

@snail said:

@hailinel said:

@turambar said:

@snail said:

You seem to be completely ignoring what I have been saying time and time again about the woman being portrayed as a vulnerable sexual object, despite her witchcraft might. It makes no sense for this woman, a warrior who cooperates with other warriors to fight hordes of demons, to deliberately show her thigh every time she casts a spell. It is unnecessary, it is basic. Even as a fighter this person is being portrayed as a sexual object, with unrealistically large and wiggly breasts, which are each like four times the size of her face. It is a caricature that doesn't fit the game, and it awkwardly stands out as a sex-infused selling point that seems to be a requirement in Japanese games reliant on a national success with the otaku crowd.

As a sexual object? Yeah I'll give you that, because once again, Kamitani really likes big tits on woman on principle. But as a vulnerable sexual object? You'll have to show me the part where she's somehow displayed as more fragile than all the other playable characters.

Yeah, I mean, given the fact that she's dishing out and taking punishment just as much as any other playable character in the game, Dragon Crown's sorceress is not a "vulnerable sex object." She's a sorceress fighting monsters right alongside a bunch of other stylized fantasy trope characters. She just happens to have an exaggerated figure.

Either of you please go ahead and list any other character in the game who, while casting even the most powerful of his/her attacks, manages to evoke only the faintest of gentle facial expressions, whilst gently unveiling erogenous body parts in the middle of a fight.

Maybe "vulnerable" isn't the right word, but that certainly doesn't sound assertive to me, never mind warrior-like. Maybe you prefer "delicate". Let's go with that then.

What are those? Peas? Why are they yellow?

@snail: Define delicate in this case. Because however sexualized she is, the sorceress is able to kick ass. She's certainly not a meek damsel.

Not necessarily delicate in her actions and powers, but in her expressions, gestures, and overall character design. Do you not agree?

That's not really the word I'd use, either. Delicate implies fragility. She's certainly voluptuous and perhaps enchanting, in a way, but delicate? No.

Seriously.

Claim sexism, make profit. (Or page views.)

It's hurting the chance for any real sexism to be brought to light and dealt with.

Dude, lets get out of here... ok? I know this really dope thread about hamburgers we could hang out in.

I guess we'll just have to disagree there. She lacks armor, is extremely exposed, and constantly has a frail and, well, delicate in my opinion, facial expression. Compare that to the armored dude, or the dude that doesn't have armor but has a book and robes to make up for it (implying intelligence), and she seems lacking when it comes to a warrior-like design.

I'm also inclined to think that's not just me.

Kotaku kinda sucks.

There I said it.

Fantasy magic users like witches and warlocks rarely wear armor. And how do robes imply intelligence? Isn't it unfair to judge the sorceress as less intelligent based on her appearance?

(message for anyone that sees this)

Here's a better place to go put your attention instead of arguing over just the stupidest shit like character designs

https://www.giantbomb.com/icewind-dale-ii/3030-8890/forums/some-stuff-about-parenthood-and-websites-and-puppi-1433747/?page=1

Dave is leaving the site and we're getting Rorie in exchange, if you haven't already go wish Dave the best.

@hailinel: It seems that the failed attempts to describe her as somehow weak comes off as more sexist than her actual depiction.

This game has a third character that is a woman that everyone conveniently forgets about. I can only guess that's because we haven't figured out how sexist she is.

Oh god this is from the Odin Sphere guys? Is the twist that it is actually taking place in the post-apocalypse and that is the reason why everyone looks like the product of lots of mutant-incest sex?

There's a difference between not being armored and being nearly naked in the midst of a war. Also, wizard-like robes (and books) imply that one is a wizard, scantily-clad clothing does not.

I am not judging the character based solely on her appearance, I saw the gameplay footage and I could see her wipe clean hordes of enemies. I am in fact commenting on how her appearance needlessly suggests a type of character which she is not. I am commenting her appearance.

@snail said:

@hailinel said:

@turambar said:

@snail said:

You seem to be completely ignoring what I have been saying time and time again about the woman being portrayed as a vulnerable sexual object, despite her witchcraft might. It makes no sense for this woman, a warrior who cooperates with other warriors to fight hordes of demons, to deliberately show her thigh every time she casts a spell. It is unnecessary, it is basic. Even as a fighter this person is being portrayed as a sexual object, with unrealistically large and wiggly breasts, which are each like four times the size of her face. It is a caricature that doesn't fit the game, and it awkwardly stands out as a sex-infused selling point that seems to be a requirement in Japanese games reliant on a national success with the otaku crowd.

As a sexual object? Yeah I'll give you that, because once again, Kamitani really likes big tits on woman on principle. But as a vulnerable sexual object? You'll have to show me the part where she's somehow displayed as more fragile than all the other playable characters.

Yeah, I mean, given the fact that she's dishing out and taking punishment just as much as any other playable character in the game, Dragon Crown's sorceress is not a "vulnerable sex object." She's a sorceress fighting monsters right alongside a bunch of other stylized fantasy trope characters. She just happens to have an exaggerated figure.

Either of you please go ahead and list any other character in the game who, while casting even the most powerful of his/her attacks, manages to evoke only the faintest of gentle facial expressions, whilst gently unveiling erogenous body parts in the middle of a fight.

Maybe "vulnerable" isn't the right word, but that certainly doesn't sound assertive to me, never mind warrior-like. Maybe you prefer "delicate". Let's go with that then.

No I just see her as a sex object with giant tits. Is she wincing in pain as if she chipped a nail every time she makes an attack? If so, then you actually have a point.

how'd i know endurance fun would be all over this?

OKAY, GUYS

Are video games never sexist? Is it possible to have sexism in video games? Because the inevitable art/media comparisons will come up: Is it impossible for art to be sexist? Why yes? Why not? Can't it be racist, ageist, etc?

If they can be sexist, what games are? Why is this one sexist, or better yet, why is this not sexist?

Are there more male leads defined by their virtues or their bodies in games? What about female leads? More of them defined by their virtues or by their bodies?

Related question: Is objectification sexist? Is it harmful?

I don't believe I've ever done this on giant bomb, but I'm going to have to take out my art history background for this and say that generally speaking, female nudes throughout the ages were used for titillation. It wasn't a question of why the artist painting any particular painting because the money was coming from a patron that demanded a certain theme, subject, or whatever. It wasn't until much later that artists painted for themselves and were able to instill their own meanings in paintings.

Art didn't hold such a high level of prestige back then. Hell, there were different ranks among subject matter with "genre paintings" being the lowest thing you could do if I remember correctly.

Still arguing over "sexism" and oversized 2d boobs?

If you haven't already go wish Matt rorie some luck as the successor to dave

https://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion-30/it-s-been-a-long-road-1433754/#0

@turambar said:

They still seem like the exceptions to me, but I don't know what he draws on his free time. I agree though.

@snail: Maybe it's an anime thing or something, for a cast comprised of pretty over the top fantasy tropes the sorceress doesn't seem out of place for me. Yeah, they could've toned her down, but the entire point of the character designs is that they're not. Apart from the wizard and elf I guess, they look pretty normal for some reason.

Honestly, the real crime here is that everyone's focusing on the witch's huge breasts, when Kamitani's true anatomical fixation is the CRAAAZY HARTMAN HIPS every one of his female characters have.

But male power fantasy is exactly what it is Grant. It's men drawn by men they way they want to look, and men drawing women in a way they want to look at. Both genders at least in this game, are portrayed in a way that suits general heterosexual male preferences.

Saying that men are portrayed just as badly in this game is a false equivalence since those brawny dwarf dudes are drawn by a dude in a way that he and many other men find aspirational. It may not be an altogether positive aspiration but it's a self inflicted one by men. That look certainly isn't what most women I've ever encountered find attractive.

OTOH If you look at much female created artwork, you'll notice that they often don't portray attractive men as big burly ripped dudes. Men in many female created works are usually as more lithe, often roguishly handsome tall men with big eyes and dare I say a more general feminine look. And the female character design often seems to have a far far greater emphasis on outfits, than physical attributes such as breasts. There's a whole subset of manga (Bishonen I think?) based off this look aimed at women.

fwiw I have't really seen much of that look in game design.

If women creators ruled the game world, chances are there would be people complaining (and rightly so) that there aren't good masculine portrayals in games. But they don't for whatever reason, which is why we don't hear about it.

I don't think this game is the worst thing in the world as it certainly isn't trying to be anything other than dumb fun, but it definitely is drawn from a dude's POV. For better or for worse.

p.s. Kotaku is stupid and inartful as usual.

What the fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuck. :(

@turambar: I guess we'll just have to disagree here. I think that, in comparison to the other characters in the image, she looks a lot more frail. The two on the left look powerful and strong, the one on the far right looks like a knowledgeable wizard. If not for the crystal ball, she'd most resemble a typical medieval bartender in that picture. Not a stereotypical appearance generally associated with war spirit and sturdiness, but if you don't think she looks frail in comparison to her allies, again, guess we'll just have to disagree here.

I thought I was for freedom of speech but holy shit turns out I'm actually against it because I really want to start a petition to make it illegal to talk about feminism on a video game website.

and just for posterity sake cause i linked the dave thread in that quote chain.

Here's Rorie's blog making his formal greetings to users on GB

https://www.giantbomb.com/forums/general-discussion-30/it-s-been-a-long-road-1433754/#34

its astounding for me at least, that a website and people ive never met in my life , that news that one person is leaving is producing the feels.

this website is really something else...

@mrfluke:

It's a bit of a double whammy. I'm so sad to see Dave go, and yet excited to have Rory join his rightful place on the internet.

Let me ask you this, then. You're at the mall and you see a, beautiful, scantily clad co-ed walking the other direction. She has large breasts, curvacious hips, and dresses in a way that flaunts her physical assets. Keep in mind that this is a real person that chose to dress as she does, not a video game character. How do you perceive her?

@trilogy: Yep totally with you on that.

Still amazing to me that just this fact that one person is leaving and we get another person in their place produced the feels.

I just love that this rather atypical japanese character design is somehow more offensive than the current status quo of sexualized pre-teen and brother/sister incest wish fulfillment fantasies. Of course most people are just familiar with the material which gets marketed to the west , which generally involves big boobs or muscly men or jsut some big explody robots or people fighting with spirit bombs.

Im glad vanillaware is cutting down on its loli-style character designs (prove to me the ages of the 3 playable female characters in odin sphere and ill take the loli bit back)

and to get started on japans LATENT homophobic culture , would be a whole other kettle of fish .. I think its sad but japanese people have some extremely homophobic representations of gay people that are openly accepted and considered "good entertainment"

..for example in the widely popular manga/anime One piece theres a whole subset of "okama" characters with their "okama kenpo" fighting style , which may as well be like calling a fighting style "fag-fu" ..

Im just saying , dragons crown seems to be quite a tasteful piece of artwork compared to what they actually use for sexual objectification in japan.

@slag: I don't think someone drawing a muscle-bound dwarf necessarily means that they wish they looked like that, nor does playing as one mean you have a male power fantasy. It could simply be that he thinks that character design looks cool for what's supposed to be a muscular barbarian-type character.

A lot of work created by men don't have big burly men either. It depends on what they're going for. There are plenty of effeminate looking male characters designed by men in Japanese works.

I think the part that she's a real person and not a video-game character in a fantasy scenario makes all the difference in my assessment of her. Characters in stories, particular ones of fictional fantastical settings, tend to have their personalities reflected in their overall design.

@snail: No, they don't. That's judging the book by the cover. You also failed to answer my question.

Bullshit. Characterization is a thing. It doesn't happen exclusively via actions and dialogue.

What I think of the character is completely beyond the point, you are derailing this argument. I was criticizing her presentation as a sexual object, which is an argument I think I'm not adding to with this.

If you really don't think she looks frail in comparison to the other warriors in the picture, then here's a quote from a post I submitted in reply to another user. I honestly feel like this argument is about to start going in circles, but here we go.

I think that, in comparison to the other characters in the image, she looks a lot more frail. The two on the left look powerful and strong, the one on the far right looks like a knowledgeable wizard. If not for the crystal ball, she'd most resemble a typical medieval bartender in that picture. Not a stereotypical appearance generally associated with war spirit and sturdiness, but if you don't think she looks frail in comparison to her allies, again, guess we'll just have to disagree here.