All the fluff fades away. Story? Does a *gameplayer* really give a fuck after all? What stays are rocksolid character progression and combat mechanics.

I play for the level-ups. I play for the loot. I play to build the character (and the pawn). Doing dungeon runs for bosskills for loot and level-ups - for character progression - because it's so damn fun, and the game just doesn't break. And once I'm done? I want to do it all over again, just differently and better.

And it plays so damn well. What Blizzard achieves on a simple 2D-plane, Capcom pulls-off in 3D. Dragon's Dogma is the real Diablo for consoles. Looking at Bitterblack Island, I think Capcom knows that too. The fluff keeping the flow at bay for way too long? Gone. Deep Down is going Post-Dragon out of the gate! Deep Down is Diablo 2 in the making, just in another dimension. The third dimension.

Can't wait!

ok

Sure? I find that style of game repetitive and boring, even Borderlands lost its charm for me by the second game.

I think it has as much potential to be the "realistic" Dragon Quest.

I don't understand what you mean with *style*? Regardless of what kind of game it is, it will always be more interesting and last for way longer, if the underlying mechanics and core gameplay are rocksolid and leave a lot of room for the player to *grow*. Best example - Mass Effect 3. I've played that game's story but once, and played a whole lot of more of coop - simply because I enjoy the underlying mechanics and core gameplay even without all the fluff. Sure - story is what got me into Mass Effect, and it's certainly an important aspect of the whole thing, I appreciated it as a roleplayer as long as it lasted, but in the end I stayed for the gameplay as a *gameplayer*.

If I'd boil games such as World of Warcraft or Diablo down to what matters to me, I'd call the overarcing genre *To Conquer the World* games. Nobody plays Dark Souls for the story. It's about the Conquest, and building your Conqueror - your winning strategy. Hell, every Mario game has pretty much zero fluff and relies soley on sound core gameplay and a challenging world to conquer. It's definitely a *To Conquer the World* game.

It's all gameplay really. Story without gameplay doesn't make a game, it makes for a book. Gameplay alone suffices of course, but interesting progression mechanics giving the player agency over how the game ultimately plays, if well done, is absolutely additive to the gameplay in a way a story cannot be. Player agency in terms of story only changes the story, not the gameplay - and hence it's of lesser value in a game. The game must come first, everything more than it is fluff.

Talking Dragon's Dogma, I feel the fluff is in the way of the what's best about this game. I've read countless comments of players who only played like 5-10 hours and then gave up, they've not gotten past the initial hump and *into the know and flow* of the whole thing. Hell - some even finished the game without ever realizing the mayority of the meat of the game happens Post-Dragon. Which is tragic, because the fluff is by far the weakest moving part of Dragon's Dogma.

Dude I just tried to come back to this game and I looked through my quest log and it was all a bunch of "collect X amount of so and so." So I said eff that and I tried to do some other quests and got stuck wandering around Gran Soren for like an hour to find an npc that was supposed to show up in 2 areas. I turned the game off. :(

Just what I'm saying. The fluff is shit. Go out and conquer the world. Also - the game really starts once you've beaten it, much like Diablo.

@seppli: I think a comparison to Diablo is a bit disingenuous because you aren't getting any serious random loot with prefixes and suffixes. At most you're grinding for materials to 3-star your items so you can dragonforge them so you can purify them, or whatever. Guess we all find our own ways to have fun. For me the fun stopped around the time I realized I was going to have to grind an absolute shitton to get to any sort of survivability on Bitterblack isle.

@adam1808: It's not really a loot game, and you only have to grind if you want to (or if you want to get anywhere in Dark Arisen, apparently). I'd just say that by the post-game all of the sort of bad open world stuff is replaced by what are essentially challenge rooms and is focused on the strengths of the game (i.e. the combat) rather than the part where you talk to really boring NPCs and run around gran soren doing really pedantic chores.

I do. I agree that gameplay is important (I don't know if it's the most important aspect of the game, though), but if a game tries to tell a cohesive story and follow a certain plot, then yes: I will care about it. Half-assing a plot is worse than having no plot at all (see: Battlefield 3's SP campaign). I mostly come to video games for both gameplay and story. If the plot is serviceable, I'm fine with it. If it blows me away (see: Bioshock Infinite), then it's even better. But if it's a clichéd, boring or uninspired story that tries to pass as something relevant? Fuck that.

Dragon's Dogma is a great game, though. One of the most engaging gameplay experiences I've played on 360 so far, and the story is good enough to not get in the way. What I'm just trying to say is that "No true Scotsman" fallacies are dumb.

Hu? Are you playing hard mode? I got to the end pretty much without grinding. In two sittings. That said, I was level 80 when I started Bitterblack - I just played the shit out of the game beforehand. Also, with how Everfall literally swamps you in Wakestones, it's really not that much of a challenge of survivability. I just had 2-3 Wakestones on me at all times. That said, I guess Strider-types are the ultimate bosskillers, especially the Ranger. Killer ranged DPS, and deadly efficient at mounting large enemies, dodge roll for easy evasion. Double jump makes mounting easy (even easier as Strider with Leaping Stone). Climb to a weakpoint, down a bottle of Liquid Vim (or just have a bunch of stamina items in your backpack), hang on for your life and stab away with houndred kisses or dire gouge.

Literally facehugged the final boss to death. So badass.

P.S. You get loot with random stats on them (rings & high-end gear sets). Rings also unlock a higher tier of skills. I got a 2% dropchance Ninja-hat, and a piece of a 13-piece Strider-gear-set with random stats bonuses from my first Bitterblack Island Final Boss kill. Bitterblack Island is also quite literally working like Sanctuary was in the first Diablo. You beat a dungeon level, you unlock a shortcut to the next, and so forth.

@seppli: I don't particularly enjoy games solely driven by loot lust, even if it is backed up by good mechanics. Loot games like Borderlands and Diablo are inherently about doing the same thing again and again and being rewarded for it. I'm never driven to get loot for the sake of getting loot, even if the process of acquiring it is mechanically sound. I guess I do need more than just mechanics in a game of that length which is probably why I enjoyed the loot in Trenched/Iron Brigade because that experience was short enough for it not to get boring.

Is post-Dragon really a spoiler? I feel like that term just means nothing to the uninitiated, AKA myself.

I think I agree with the connections you're trying to make, but I think DD's ideas stand on their own and it does not need to be held up to any sort of comparison w/other games such as Diablo. Maybe that's the D3 disappointment in me talking though.

Now would the next DD benefit from a bigger and better loot pool(loot itemization, prefixes and suffixes et al), a bigger and even darker world, and some sort of co-op capability beyond the pawn system(imagine two Arisen's and their mains making up a party and roaming BBI)? Well, hell yeah!

I love me some loot driven games, but the only thing, and I really mean it, that I'm craving right now as I'm in the full throws of DD:DA addiction, is some way to play this stuff with someone else.

Gimme co-op Capcom!!

PS. @seppli: You are not helping me forget my Ranger build, and my wonderings of giving up on MA, and just going back to that vocation. :P

PSS. Just found out Metal Golems require a Strider/Ranger to take completely out...ggrrrr.