Too "western" for it's own good?

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#1 Posted by The_Ruiner (1034 posts) -

I'm really enjoying the combat in this game..that and the character creator are it's strongest features. And it's obvious they are attempting to appeal to the standard Western RPG audience with the aesthetic. But It all feels too standard. I feel like Capcom is capable of so much more. I realize they want that Skyrim money, but that's never going to happen. They are never going to beat Bethesda at it's own game. I feel like they should be embracing the things that make Capcom great. More stylish and somewhat over the top character designs. More varied weapons and fighting styles. Why are there no fist weapons? Can you imagine a class that has a Hadoken or a Sonic Boom? How about some Nunchucks? Firearms?

#2 Posted by Still_I_Cry (2494 posts) -

Nope and I don't want to.

I like it the way it is.

#3 Posted by Mesoian (1574 posts) -

I'd be all for more enemy types, but there's nothing inherently wrong with the setting the feel. Variety is something this game could use a lot more of though.

#4 Posted by Sterling (2146 posts) -

I think they struck gold with this game. And I see it doing well sales wise. And I am looking forward to the sequel already. I see people ripping on the world and saying it has no life and there is nothing to care about. I think its fine, and has plenty of life. Those little cut scenes are enough for me. Could it be better, of course, and they can change things in the next one. But I think its great for what it is. Its actually almost exactly what I wanted out of it. It lived up to all my expectations and hype.

#5 Posted by Jimbo (9797 posts) -

It's not out here yet, but I'm getting the impression it could be a bit of a sleeper hit. I think it looks neat.

#6 Posted by benjaebe (2783 posts) -

Nah, the setting is pretty much fine with me. I've actually rather enjoyed the character design (particularly the customization) and the overall look, feel and aesthetic of the world.

#7 Edited by MrKlorox (11209 posts) -

I'd say it wasn't deeply western enough. The "western" aspect seems very shallow, like they don't even understand what it is about western games that beat Japanese games.
 
You want big worlds? We got those!
You want European style fantasy cliches? We got those!
You want a reason to explore and role-play? Does not compute.

#8 Posted by BraveToaster (12590 posts) -

@Still_I_Cry said:

Nope and I don't want to.

I like it the way it is.

Same. I'm enjoying it immensely.

#9 Posted by crazyleaves (643 posts) -
@BraveToaster

@Still_I_Cry said:

Nope and I don't want to.

I like it the way it is.

Same. I'm enjoying it immensely.

Loving it so far too. I think it's unfair to compare it to Bethesda's games just for the fact that this is the first one they've made. The world is fine, combat is fun and the story so far is decent.

Also, listening to the podcast made me wonder if Patrick knows how to play a game, or just wrote if off because it wasn't "immersive" enough. I don't know.
#10 Posted by project343 (2816 posts) -

@The_Ruiner: I actually really enjoy the art style. It has that same sort of 'Japanese take on Western medieval' that Demon/Dark Souls had. It's really sort of charming.

#11 Posted by gamefreak9 (2356 posts) -

My problem is that its too button mashy.

#12 Posted by Yummylee (21475 posts) -

I have no problem with the aesthetic, for as generic as it still is. I just can't stand the writing and the story. Even Amalur, which also suffered from a boring world courtesy of its boring denizens, hits harder than Dogma. I pretty much skip past each piece of dialogue, and I have no interest whatsoever regarding the 'fiction'. It's all about the combat, the dungeons, and the boss battles. Travelling around town or doing quests that don't involve combat are easily the worst parts.

#13 Posted by JasonR86 (9652 posts) -

Ugh.

#14 Posted by mabber36 (129 posts) -

well, I certainly am not interested in it because the art style is bland

#15 Posted by katanalauncher (215 posts) -

Are you saying there's fucking Cowboys in Dragon's Dogma?

I'm in.

#16 Posted by TentPole (1858 posts) -

@MrKlorox said:

I'd say it wasn't deeply western enough. The "western" aspect seems very shallow, like they don't even understand what it is about western games that beat Japanese games. You want big worlds? We got those! You want European style fantasy cliches? We got those! You want a reason to explore and role-play? Does not compute.

The exploration is great but you are right about the awful roleplaying.

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#17 Posted by SimplyTron (77 posts) -

It could have been great had it been more western. Fast travel. Figuring out that the lore of a game like is is what makes it interesting. So unlike JRPGs which are individual stories and new worlds each time, we love Skyrim, Dragon Age, the Witcher because the worlds those games take place in feel like they really do have their own history with books and tales and treasure and ruins and people talking about the history to fill the game up that you go on quests that have to do with solving mysteries decades or centuries old. It is what Lucas was trying to do with Star Wars, make you feel like people had actually lived there for a really long time. JRPGs don't do that and just present you a new world without fleshing out the history. And for those games that is actually ok since you are focused on that single story in the game and exploration is not a big part of it.

#18 Posted by LikeaSsur (1508 posts) -

@gamefreak9 said:

My problem is that its too button mashy.

Somebody hasn't gone up against their first group of bandits yet.

#19 Posted by MonkeyKing1969 (2666 posts) -

@The_Ruiner said:

I'm really enjoying the combat in this game..that and the character creator are it's strongest features. And it's obvious they are attempting to appeal to the standard Western RPG audience with the aesthetic. But It all feels too standard. I feel like Capcom is capable of so much more. I realize they want that Skyrim money, but that's never going to happen.

Meh, I think Capcom is doing fine, I would have hated the things you would have wanted them to add. This game is selling because of its western look and feel. To toss the away that marketing edge would be to toss away any reason for the game to exist.

#20 Edited by EXTomar (4638 posts) -

What does "too western" mean? Why shouldn't they copy what they think works well in Skyrim? That is like suggesting no one can build cars with tired because that has already been done.

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#21 Posted by Morrow (1829 posts) -

There are two things in my opinion that DD does better than Skyrim: a way more varied character editor and actual cutscenes. Cutscenes really enrich this game, because I get to see my characters face up-close, so paying attention to their features when creating them makes more sense than in Skyrim, where you only see your character from behind anyways.

#22 Posted by Yummylee (21475 posts) -

@rebgav said:

Hey guys, I haven't played this game yet but I have a question; How many of this game's problems could be glossed-over or resolved completely by allowing you to hire established Capcom characters as pawns? Medieval Ryu, Medieval Megaman, Medieval Rad Spencer. Just think about it. It would be pretty great, right?

I did see an impressive pawnerification of Kratos - on the 360 version ironically enough. Also never mind the user-base, even CAPCOM have started releasing some currently less-than-famous-faces like Lady from DMC in the ''special pawns'' recruitment category. I imagine it's only a matter of time whether the user-base catches up if not CAPCOM release them themselves until you can have Wesker, Arthur (there's an easy one) and Ken at your back.

But gettin' srs for a moment, I think Dragon's Dogma is a tough proposition. It almost reminds me of Far Cry 2 with its flimsy narrative, open-world that's just a little too open, nonsensical fast-travel system and the resulting 'hate it or love it' reception. But like Far Cry 2, the combat may just be good enough, along with the allure of finding and buying new stuff, that you'll able to look past the warts and try to focus on the good stuff. That's the way I feel anywhoo, and I think Far Cry 2 (which I also liked) is an especially fitting game to compare to better explain my point.

#23 Edited by Klei (1768 posts) -

@The_Ruiner said:

I'm really enjoying the combat in this game..that and the character creator are it's strongest features. And it's obvious they are attempting to appeal to the standard Western RPG audience with the aesthetic. But It all feels too standard. I feel like Capcom is capable of so much more. I realize they want that Skyrim money, but that's never going to happen. They are never going to beat Bethesda at it's own game. I feel like they should be embracing the things that make Capcom great. More stylish and somewhat over the top character designs. More varied weapons and fighting styles. Why are there no fist weapons? Can you imagine a class that has a Hadoken or a Sonic Boom? How about some Nunchucks? Firearms?

Uh. From what I'm reading, you want those japanese anime-style haircuts and huge tits? You want kamehamehas, huge-ass japanese-style rifles and shit like that? Fuck no. And I don't understand your '' they want Skyrim's money ''. Dragon's Dogma was developed when Skyrim wasn't even announced. It takes two to three years to create a game, and back then, Skyrim was just a whisper.

#24 Posted by BraveToaster (12590 posts) -

@rebgav: There are special Pawns you can hire that are named after a few of Capcom's popular video game characters.

#25 Posted by Demoskinos (14732 posts) -

I absolutely like there being no fast travel. It makes everything you do in general seem more substantial. In my eyes DD is pound for pound better than skyrim. I mean really the lore of Elder Scrolls is just as boring with no real memorable characters either and the combat is leagues better in DD.

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#26 Posted by Jimbo (9797 posts) -

I would like to revise my opinion to 'not western enough'.  Has the guy that designed the UI even played a game before? Also the balance and AI are lol.

#27 Posted by TentPole (1858 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

I absolutely like there being no fast travel. It makes everything you do in general seem more substantial. In my eyes DD is pound for pound better than skyrim. I mean really the lore of Elder Scrolls is just as boring with no real memorable characters either and the combat is leagues better in DD.

I agree with all of this, all of the time.

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#28 Edited by Hellstrom (199 posts) -

They actualy made a better western game than actual westerners. You fight the monsters and observe the small details of Dragon's Dogma and then suddenly Skyrim seems dull. I will never understand for the life of me how a game that launched as bugged as Skyrim as half finished, i will never understand how a game where you can literaly kill all enemies in the game the same way got 9's & 10's. Its clear the game industry plays favorites with 'brands'. Applauding mediocrity and then criticizing it in another game is completely disgusting.

I can name so many things Dogma gets right that Skyrim failed to pay attention to.

- Pawns actualy have unique dialogue for various locations & enemies. Not just the same 2-3 sentences.

- Pawns observe small things, like if a suspicious rope is sitting there in the forest the pawn will notice it, Skyrim companions might as well be a bagel.

- When you slide down a mountain, pawns actualy slide down with you, not run around the entire flippin moutain like Skyrim. Oh an thats another thing, a sliding down the moutain animation! not just falling like a statue.

- Weapons that have different combat styles than the rest, not like Skyrim where the Axe was just like the Sword which was also just like a Hammer which was also like the Mace.

- Pawns will actualy pick up downed Pawns and carry them.

- Night in a forest actualy looks like night in a forest, almost pitch black.

- Caves don't look the same, all skyrim Nordic & Dwemer ruins were ultimately the same. Usualy there was only one differing room from the rest. All pretty much had the same layout and you could guess how they all would begin and end...Tombs, Tombs, legend of dead nords, tombs, big circular room, time to exit.

- Monster battles that actualy seem like monster battles. Dragons in Skyrim were so underwhelming. They could be killed by the cats, trolls, guards, basicaly any NPC can own a Dragon. Hell i made a video of my companion & a storm atronach soloing ad Dragon on its hardest difficulty. In Dragon's Dogma? a Dragon cannot be killed like any other enemy, and is tough as nails. In Dragon's Dogma monsters actualy have their own characteristics. A Dragon can brainwash your Pawn turning them against you. An ogre that specificaly targets female NPC's overall. None of this detail between monsters is in Skyrim.

- Compotent battle system, not swinging everything around as if it were a bat.

- Penalty for running out of stamina, keeps you on your toes and makes you plan your attacks wisely, because that one attack can render you helpless for a few seconds and in that time an enemy can one shot you. Skyrim you run out of stamina, well you slow down for a few and pick it back up since it fills up even faster.

- depowered healing, make it so that a mage can never heal you all the way. This actualy makes items you get useful. Not like in Skyrim where it doesn't even matter what healing item or food you have with healing you can pretty much heal through everything (i made a video of this too, me soloing a dragon on hardest difficulty and just healing through all his attacks without my mana bar even becoming half way depleted).

I could go on & on with reasons why Dogma is the better rpg.

@MrKlorox said:

I'd say it wasn't deeply western enough. The "western" aspect seems very shallow, like they don't even understand what it is about western games that beat Japanese games. You want big worlds? We got those! You want European style fantasy cliches? We got those! You want a reason to explore and role-play? Does not compute.

Well if the definition of western truly means. Creating a large bland world where all the NPCS even the main ones look like the rest of the NPCS and have the same voice overs? (All the yarls in each Skyrim city looked like they could be brothers). There is no immersion what so ever in Skyrim. It succeeds it giving the illusion that its vast by spamming the same content all over it, with loads of pointless filler and fetch quest. If that is in essence western? donotwant.

#29 Edited by Yummylee (21475 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

I absolutely like there being no fast travel. It makes everything you do in general seem more substantial.

It's simply bad game design. Sure, when you're first travelling through to a new town for the first time it makes sense, but when you're trying to hand in quests or you don't want have to fight your way through respawning low level mobs that won't leave you alone (as you're continually running out of stamina), it's a fucking nuisance. It unnecessarily elongates your overall playtime, and my current time of 30 hours should no doubt be skimmed down to maybe 20 had all of the extra travel time be ommited.

It especially stuck out during those escort quests--which are bloody terrible even as far as escort quests go because of how they won't even steer clear from the danger. And so should my guy die (and can't be retried), that leaves me stuck in the middle of nowhere with no aim or purpose. Should I at least opt to attempt a different quest, that could still potentially force me to travel to a completely different area which would take around maybe 15-20 minutes to reach.

#30 Posted by Sterling (2146 posts) -

@Hellstrom: I concur. And I can not wait to see what they do next. Hopefully this is just a jumping off point and we see a second one.

#31 Posted by LikeaSsur (1508 posts) -

I never really understood why everybody is comparing this to Skyrim. It's kinda unfair.

Think about it: Skyrim is Bethesda's 5th Elder Scrolls game, they've had a long time to find out what works and what doesn't. Dragon's Dogma is a first time game, it doesn't know what does and doesn't work yet, so why are we comparing the expert veteran to the new player that just stepped out onto the field?

#32 Posted by Demoskinos (14732 posts) -

@Yummylee: I don't think its bad game design at all. It forces you to prioritize how you are going to handle quests. Besides that you can unlock shortcuts that let you hop around the map faster. And then there are the ferry stones and port crystals which is straight up fast travel. Its just restricted. I don't think by any stretch they *had* to put that feature in the game just because open world game "X, Y and Z" did it. Dragon's Dogma seems uncompromised in its design and doesn't apologize for anything and that is why I enjoy it. Sure, it may not be everyone's cup of tea but I think it was a purposeful design choice and I think the game is better off for it.

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#33 Posted by Genkkaku (735 posts) -

@Yummylee: I think it gives the escort quests more weight that you can't just fast travel to near the location and walk there

And even with opening up the shortcuts makes it quicker and if i ever need to get to the capitol I have like 4 ferry stones and there only 20K to buy and you can get as much as you want, so travelling back to the capitol is super quick and easy

#34 Posted by TentPole (1858 posts) -

I have said it before. Unrestrained fast travel would ruin this game. It is necessary for the way the game handles risk and tension. Not only do you need to complete the dungeon, you have to make sure you have enough resources to make it back alive. It is fantastic.

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#35 Posted by Genkkaku (735 posts) -

@TentPole said:

I have said it before. Unrestrained fast travel would ruin this game. It is necessary for the way the game handles risk and tension. Not only do you need to complete the dungeon, you have to make sure you have enough resources to make it back alive. It is fantastic.

Yeah and it adds to the day and night cycle.. betting on making it to and from your destination before it gets dark and you contend with stronger monsters ambushing you, rather then just fast travelling out of it

#36 Posted by Sterling (2146 posts) -

@Genkkaku said:

And even with opening up the shortcuts makes it quicker and if i ever need to get to the capitol I have like 4 ferry stones and there only 20K to buy and you can get as much as you want, so travelling back to the capitol is super quick and easy

For those that want to use Ferrystones, the dude who ones the Black Cat shop (has the house in Nobel quarter, forget his name), he sells them much cheaper than 20k. right now in my game he sells them for 9k. The more you do for him the cheaper they get. But the Black Cat price will stay the same.

I like to keep one or two on me for when I run out of healing supplies. But I think I have only used them twice in total.

#37 Edited by Yummylee (21475 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

@Yummylee: I don't think its bad game design at all. It forces you to prioritize how you are going to handle quests. Besides that you can unlock shortcuts that let you hop around the map faster. And then there are the ferry stones and port crystals which is straight up fast travel. Its just restricted. I don't think by any stretch they *had* to put that feature in the game just because open world game "X, Y and Z" did it. Dragon's Dogma seems uncompromised in its design and doesn't apologize for anything and that is why I enjoy it. Sure, it may not be everyone's cup of tea but I think it was a purposeful design choice and I think the game is better off for it.

How you're going to ''handle'' quests?... Are you serious? Dragon's Dogma has so far been far too easy for its own good; ironically enough it was at its hardest during the beginning, when I'd brave the night time and be completely overwhelmed by the bandits. Now? Even ogres and cyclops can be downed with minimal damage. I'm completely over-levelled because of how often I've had to wage my way and inadvertently grind through my travels... There's no 'preparation' required. I have more than enough supplies, so much so that I'm often sacrificing stuff just so I can carry other items I may find.

And I say again, I'm not against exploring the world... but for fuck sake, let it be because it's my own choice. If I just want to head to this specific town to accept a quest, or for example if i want to visit the only vendor who sells the rift items, then let me fast travel back there instead of potentially spending maybe 20 minutes trekking there consistently being swarmed by enemies who prove to be nothing more than a nuisance, while my stamina is also constantly emptying forcing me to stop in my tracks for a couple of seconds until it recharges...

It is terrible game design, simple as. If anything, it actually makes the world seem smaller in scope because of how often I'm forced to retread the same environments to get where I may need to go. Yes, you can buy rift stones, but they're relatively expensive and of course they only take you to the one place. I would accept the pricing if they would at least let you use them to travel anywhere instead of just the capital. Furthermore, I would be much more forgiving if I weren't forced to take a small break waiting for my stamina bar to recharge over and over.

@Genkkaku said:

@Yummylee: I think it gives the escort quests more weight that you can't just fast travel to near the location and walk there

And even with opening up the shortcuts makes it quicker and if i ever need to get to the capitol I have like 4 ferry stones and there only 20K to buy and you can get as much as you want, so travelling back to the capitol is super quick and easy

Well, duh - I wasn't referring to being able to utilise a fast travel system for when I'm in the middle of an escort quest. I brought up the escort quests specifically because:

so should my guy die (and can't be retried), that leaves me stuck in the middle of nowhere with no aim or purpose

Stranded, with me not fearing for the safety of my character, but instead exhausted at the idea of having to waste 15 or so minutes travelling across areas I'm slowly starting to get sick of just to return to where I came from.

EDIT Actually, what would work and would also make the most sense, is they allow you to fast travel to certain areas once you hit a high enough level. It'll then determine just which areas are basically a waste of time travelling across because the opposition is so weak, while also forcing you to engage in the tougher areas and not relying on fast travel to avoid any troublesome encounters altogether.

#38 Posted by LikeaSsur (1508 posts) -

@Yummylee said:

It is terrible game design, simple as. If anything, it actually makes the world seem smaller in scope because of how often I'm forced to retread the same environments to get where I may need to go. Yes, you can buy rift stones, but they're relatively expensive and of course they only take you to the one place. I would accept the pricing if they would at least let you use them to travel anywhere instead of just the capital. Furthermore, I would much more forgiving if I'm not forced to take a small break waiting for my stamina bar to recharge over and over.

I think you're confusing "Terrible game design" with "Something I don't like about this game."

Bad game design would be having the camera go haywire when rotating it too fast, or clipping through terrain/walls.

Don't get me wrong, you're free to hate on whatever you want, just make sure you actually know what it is.

#39 Edited by Yummylee (21475 posts) -

@LikeaSsur said:

@Yummylee said:

It is terrible game design, simple as. If anything, it actually makes the world seem smaller in scope because of how often I'm forced to retread the same environments to get where I may need to go. Yes, you can buy rift stones, but they're relatively expensive and of course they only take you to the one place. I would accept the pricing if they would at least let you use them to travel anywhere instead of just the capital. Furthermore, I would much more forgiving if I'm not forced to take a small break waiting for my stamina bar to recharge over and over.

I think you're confusing "Terrible game design" with "Something I don't like about this game."

Bad game design would be having the camera go haywire when rotating it too fast, or clipping through terrain/walls.

Don't get me wrong, you're free to hate on whatever you want, just make sure you actually know what it is.

It's bad game design because it forces me to needlessly travel through the same areas over and over and over forced to waste my time fighting against the same low level enemies for no reason other than to extend the playtime. They were no doubt trying to capture the feel of Dark Souls, only it doesn't take nearly as long to actually travel through Dark Souls because of the innumerable short cuts that open up, and Hell, even Dark Souls eventually gives you free reign to travel wherever you want via the bonfires. Dark Souls is also of course a very challenging game, so you feel like you're really working your up when you backtrack so you can have a better chance at besting the massive boss battles and dungeons. Dragon's Dogma is far too easy, and not by reflexes or tactics like for a highly skilled Dark Souls player, but for how I take barely any damage and I can kill a regular enemy with just 2, maybe even a single combo using my sword.

Also, no, a wonky camera and clipping isn't apart of the game design, they're glitches and bugs. The design of a game is something the developers intended; nobody purposely intends to have a screwy camera (well, there are exceptions...) or for your character to accidentally find half of himself inside a boulder.

EDIT: Though I should also mention that while the backtracking wasn't as much of an issue in Dark Souls, it is still one such criticism I've levied against it in the past.

#40 Posted by Genkkaku (735 posts) -

@Yummylee said:

@Genkkaku said:

@Yummylee: I think it gives the escort quests more weight that you can't just fast travel to near the location and walk there

And even with opening up the shortcuts makes it quicker and if i ever need to get to the capitol I have like 4 ferry stones and there only 20K to buy and you can get as much as you want, so travelling back to the capitol is super quick and easy

Well, duh - I wasn't referring to being able to utilise a fast travel system for when I'm in the middle of an escort quest. I brought up the escort quests specifically because:

so should my guy die (and can't be retried), that leaves me stuck in the middle of nowhere with no aim or purpose

Stranded, with me not fearing for the safety of my character, but instead exhausted at the idea of having to waste 15 or so minutes travelling across areas I'm slowly starting to get sick of just to return to where I came from.

EDIT Actually, what would work and would also make the most sense, is they allow you to fast travel to certain areas once you hit a high enough level. It'll then determine just which areas are basically a waste of time travelling across because the opposition is so weak, while also forcing you to engage in the tougher areas and not relying on fast travel to avoid any troublesome encounters altogether.

But if there was fast-travel it would be utilised on escort quests, there not super fun but they seem to have shoved alot in there.. And if you fail the escort quest or finish it you can just Ferrystone back to Gran Soren to keep down on travel time.. Or just skip the escort quests all together, the rewards aren't that great

Tho it is a little bit of a nuisance not even being able to fast travel or ferrystone to other major locations (Even though I enjoy running around I am sick of running the canyon between Gran Soren and the fishing village).. At least like a horse and carriage between major settlements

I do see what you mean for having to deal with the same mobs back and forth, but for me I'm still enjoying the combat so it doesn't bother me

#41 Edited by Vorbis (2750 posts) -

No-fast travel and no timeskip are what makes the game so great, without those two things it would just be another generic open world game, but because you're forced to go on these 2-3 day adventures you find these "moments" in the game that make it better than any other game out there.

I can't think of another game that delivered on this adventure feeling, you have to stock up, upgrade everything, hire new pawns, get some sleep so you can leave at daybreak, then you head out and don't return for days.

Not to mention if you were just warping everywhere you would miss out on so much, most of the amazing things have happened not because of a scripted quest but because you're walking along a quiet road waiting to be ambushed at any time.

Sadly the sequel will listen to the vocal few who want Skyrim 2.0 and we'll get them forced on us anyway.

#42 Edited by Yummylee (21475 posts) -

@Vorbis said:

No-fast travel and no timeskip are what makes the game so great, without those two things it would just be another generic open world game, but because you're forced to go on these 2-3 day adventures you find these "moments" in the game that make it better than any other game out there.

I can't think of another game that delivered on this adventure feeling, you have to stock up, upgrade everything, hire new pawns, get some sleep so you can leave at daybreak, then you head out and don't return for days.

Not to mention if you were just warping everywhere you would miss out on so much, most of the amazing things have happened not because of a scripted quest but because you're walking along a quiet road waiting to be ambushed at any time.

Sadly the sequel will listen to the vocal whiners who want Skyrim 2.0 and we'll get them forced on us anyway.

Did you completely skip over my posts?... I don't even know where to begin.

First off, I enjoyed the exploration at first for the very reasons you listed, but it's like the game stays at the same difficulty while you progressively get stronger making the need to travel less and less desirable. The escort mission example in particular is a significant peeve I have because should you fail (which happens often for me...), you're then stranded in the middle of nowhere with what might as well be vast amounts of open land, not a harsh world that you're inclined to try and survive within.

Secondly, the 'dynamic' battles also wears off pretty quickly as well. All the bandits/goblins are in the exact same areas should you return, and the dynamic griffon/cyclops battles? They too respawn in the exact same locations. i haven't played Skyrim, though I've seen plenty of its documented randomness and as such is significantly more appealing to travel across because of said randomness; fast travel is available should you just want to finish a quest or whatever, but the allure of simply roaming around waiting to see what happens looks to be a notable incentive to ignore fast travel altogether. For Dragon's Dogma I feel like I'm just wasting time; I've beaten all of these ambushes, I've killed more than enough cyclops for them to stop being impressive nor engaging, and as I said, if I want to, say, visit the guy who sells rift stuff like hair dyes, I am forced to drudge through the monotony of sprint, stamina recharge, sprint, stamina recharge - it's completely unnecessary.

Much like I suggested before, it would make sense if should you hit a specific level when the opposition for an area really is no match, you should then be allowed to fast travel. Time still passes much like you manually travelled to your destination, only you don't actually have to waste time doing it yourself. I need not stock up, upgrade, hire new pawns or anything because it's so easy - which is notably a side-effect of its own design because of me inadvertently grinding through all of the mobs that would not piss off pestering me just asking to get slaughtered.

Seriously, why would you be so opposed to the idea anyway? What would be 'sad' about adding in the option? There's never anything wrong with giving people more choice. Sure, maybe you enjoy going through the same tedious ambushes over and over and over with but snippets of experience to further over-power you, but for the people like myself who just wishes I could get to where I need to go without making it a chore, I'd have the option to not indulge 15 minutes of running across the same landscapes I've already seen for hours on end. I mean it's not like you'd automatically be forced to use the fast-travel; it'd be there for those want it.

I feel like people are harping against me because they feel like I just want ''dumb it all down, maaaan!'', or I find that it's probably too ''hardcore''. There's really nothing hardcore about Dogma because of its overt ease; if it was actually a challenge and I was forced to prepare before heading out into the wilderness, I'd be much more understandable. But no, it's all quite literally just a waste of time at this point and what should probably be a 40-50 game is no doubt going to stretch to maybe a 60-80 game based on all the added padding of unnecessary travel. The combat, while enjoyable, isn't exactly what you could say has a lot of depth, either. There's a very shallow set of squad-commands and all, but the pawns largely abide by their own rules and are left to their own devices. As a fighter (now an assassin), my most effective strategy is to basically just keep using the Burst Strike attack (The lunge with the 1H sword) against everything. I would use other such attacks, but primarily just so I could spruce things up.

#43 Posted by Vorbis (2750 posts) -

@Yummylee: Actually I wasn't replying to you so no I didn't read your post but my points still stand. Adding in fast travel isn't the way to solve your issues, all they need to do is make so you need to travel to previous areas less.

Simple things like adding in the Rift Crystal merchant in every town would stop you having to run back to the encampment. Clustering quests together so you pick up 4-5 quests for the same area at once, rather than sending you there 4-5 different times.

Hell, even the ability to hire a horse for a certain route after finishing up enough quests in that area.

Why are people opposed to the option of fast travel? Because if it's there people will use it and the game will be heavily based around doing so. It's the same reason people are so against stuff like an Easy difficulty for Dark Souls, once you add something like that in, the games philosophy changes and it's no longer about being tough when anyone can finish it.

#44 Edited by Yummylee (21475 posts) -

@Vorbis said:

@Yummylee: Actually I wasn't replying to you so no I didn't read your post but my points still stand. Adding in fast travel isn't the way to solve your issues, all they need to do is make so you need to travel to previous areas less.

Simple things like adding in the Rift Crystal merchant in every town would stop you having to run back to the encampment. Clustering quests together so you pick up 4-5 quests for the same area at once, rather than sending you there 4-5 different times.

Hell, even the ability to hire a horse for a certain route after finishing up enough quests in that area.

Why are people opposed to the option of fast travel? Because if it's there people will use it and the game will be heavily based around doing so. It's the same reason people are so against stuff like an Easy difficulty for Dark Souls, once you add something like that in, the games philosophy changes and it's no longer about being tough when anyone can finish it.

Exactly. Even if they at least were courteous enough to give you infinite sprint, I wouldn't be so vehemently opposed to such a mindfuck of a design decision. Your Dark Souls example I think is very different to Dragon's Dogma and fast travel, though. With Dark Souls and the idea of being patient rather than steadfast and foolhardy, and actually preparing - that is a focal part of the game. You die a lot in Dark Souls because you're meant to, and then when you're able to best whatever it was you're stuck on, you feel fucking fantastic. With Dragon's Dogma, what's the point of having no fast travel? As I said, the world is a surprisingly easy one to survive in, so... what? It's just a complete waste of time; you gain nothing by repeating the same tired ambush encounters and travelling across the same quarry avoiding the same scripted boulders that fall above you over and over.

As I said, I'm not demanding that we're given fast travel right off the gate. Having to earn it by reaching a specific level--a level high enough that it becomes pointless to retread the same locales and enemies--that you're then given the option to just skip the travelling part and just get to where you want to go.

Dragon's Dogma isn't meant to be about tedium I'm sure, so I really don't think adding a more reasonable fast travelling system would effect the game's philosophy in the slightest.

#45 Posted by Totori (559 posts) -
@Vorbis said:

No-fast travel and no timeskip are what makes the game so great, without those two things it would just be another generic open world game, but because you're forced to go on these 2-3 day adventures you find these "moments" in the game that make it better than any other game out there.

I can't think of another game that delivered on this adventure feeling, you have to stock up, upgrade everything, hire new pawns, get some sleep so you can leave at daybreak, then you head out and don't return for days.

Not to mention if you were just warping everywhere you would miss out on so much, most of the amazing things have happened not because of a scripted quest but because you're walking along a quiet road waiting to be ambushed at any time.

Sadly the sequel will listen to the vocal few who want Skyrim 2.0 and we'll get them forced on us anyway.

Yeah this exactly. Even some of the more mundane quests seem like grand adventures. Your being forced to do some actual role playing.  The fact that you have to prepare, plan, and set out is awesome. The best is when it's nighttime and you hear loud stomping footsteps somewhere off in the darkness.
#46 Posted by Demoskinos (14732 posts) -

@Yummylee said:

@LikeaSsur said:

@Yummylee said:

It is terrible game design, simple as. If anything, it actually makes the world seem smaller in scope because of how often I'm forced to retread the same environments to get where I may need to go. Yes, you can buy rift stones, but they're relatively expensive and of course they only take you to the one place. I would accept the pricing if they would at least let you use them to travel anywhere instead of just the capital. Furthermore, I would much more forgiving if I'm not forced to take a small break waiting for my stamina bar to recharge over and over.

I think you're confusing "Terrible game design" with "Something I don't like about this game."

Bad game design would be having the camera go haywire when rotating it too fast, or clipping through terrain/walls.

Don't get me wrong, you're free to hate on whatever you want, just make sure you actually know what it is.

It's bad game design because it forces me to needlessly travel through the same areas over and over and over forced to waste my time fighting against the same low level enemies for no reason other than to extend the playtime. They were no doubt trying to capture the feel of Dark Souls, only it doesn't take nearly as long to actually travel through Dark Souls because of the innumerable short cuts that open up, and Hell, even Dark Souls eventually gives you free reign to travel wherever you want via the bonfires. Dark Souls is also of course a very challenging game, so you feel like you're really working your up when you backtrack so you can have a better chance at besting the massive boss battles and dungeons. Dragon's Dogma is far too easy, and not by reflexes or tactics like for a highly skilled Dark Souls player, but for how I take barely any damage and I can kill a regular enemy with just 2, maybe even a single combo using my sword.

Also, no, a wonky camera and clipping isn't apart of the game design, they're glitches and bugs. The design of a game is something the developers intended; nobody purposely intends to have a screwy camera (well, there are exceptions...) or for your character to accidentally find half of himself inside a boulder.

EDIT: Though I should also mention that while the backtracking wasn't as much of an issue in Dark Souls, it is still one such criticism I've levied against it in the past.

Again, that seems like a personal distaste with you and thats fine. I and seems many others don't mind that at all. I like walking around the world with my pawns back and forth theres always that chance that a Griffon or a Chimera will pop up or if your traveling at night a Wight. I've had some excellent moments because of that and its the reason I think fast travel isn't needed. If fast travel is a readily avalible option then it cheapens the game considerably. Again, this may just not be the game for you and thats fine but that doesn't mean its bad game design.

Online
#47 Posted by Yummylee (21475 posts) -

@Totori said:

@Vorbis said:

No-fast travel and no timeskip are what makes the game so great, without those two things it would just be another generic open world game, but because you're forced to go on these 2-3 day adventures you find these "moments" in the game that make it better than any other game out there.

I can't think of another game that delivered on this adventure feeling, you have to stock up, upgrade everything, hire new pawns, get some sleep so you can leave at daybreak, then you head out and don't return for days.

Not to mention if you were just warping everywhere you would miss out on so much, most of the amazing things have happened not because of a scripted quest but because you're walking along a quiet road waiting to be ambushed at any time.

Sadly the sequel will listen to the vocal few who want Skyrim 2.0 and we'll get them forced on us anyway.

Yeah this exactly. Even some of the more mundane quests seem like grand adventures. Your being forced to do some actual role playing. The fact that you have to prepare, plan, and set out is awesome. The best is when it's nighttime and you hear loud stomping footsteps somewhere off in the darkness.

For fu-....fine, whatever, I give up. I'm clearly on my own here so... that's that then.

#48 Posted by Totori (559 posts) -
@Yummylee: Like a fantasy, somewhat violent Oregon trail
#49 Posted by TentPole (1858 posts) -

@Yummylee: You have got Pat and Joystiq on your side. They count for something.

Online
#50 Edited by Yummylee (21475 posts) -

@TentPole said:

@Yummylee: You have got Pat and Joystiq on your side. They count for something.

I honestly think Joystiq's review is a little too harsh, despite agreeing with a great many of the complaints brought up. I'm more inclined to overall agree with Patrick, though; I don't hate Dragon's Dogma as much as the contrary is no doubt a common misconception... If anything it's because I can specifically see how close to greatness it is that I've been so vocal about the aspects that I don't like. I'd probably give Dragon's Dogma 3 stars too, but that's not to deny that I'm not having fun and the pawn system (despite the laughably bad AI) is very impressive all the same.

I mean I just came from spending around 3 in-game days fighting against a bloody drake... moments like those are why Dragon's Dogma stands as something that can potentially grow from its foundation into something truly outstanding. I'm definitely excited for when we start hearing about the sequel in a few years time.

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