Wyy Dragon's Dogma WHY?

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#1 Edited by Iron_Tool (215 posts) -

So I played the Demo and I must say that I am disappointed. The game play is so-so, nothing really exciting so far, it might get better if there is a good story attached to this.

But the thing that got me the most was the action items like opening gates. Totally destroyed the immersion! You get a pre-canned cut scene of that gate opening from a different angle but no one is standing behind it (and you and your whole party are at the gate). What is this? The nineties??

I was hoping that this would be a great game considering what kind of pedigree Capcom through at this and there is a good chance that the game will be alright but why would you make a design decision like this?? Why take a stupid shortcut like this that cheapens the whole experience?

What do you guys think?

#2 Posted by Iron_Tool (215 posts) -

Sorry for the typo in the title.

#3 Posted by ItBeStefYo (1021 posts) -

I think you are over-reacting on a serious level.

I didnt like the warrior gameplay so much, but that Strider section with the griffin was GREAT!

#4 Posted by HadesTimes (802 posts) -

It's a very long game and probably the demo is very old code. I would AT LEAST rent the final version before getting upset about it.

#5 Posted by Demoskinos (14512 posts) -

I have no Idea what your getting upset about because that demo pumped me up. And the asynchronous multiplayer battle against the UR-Dragon sounds awesome.

#6 Posted by kuz101 (209 posts) -

The demo is VERY old. It is basically the same demo they have been showing since E3 last year. Also there are canned animations in every single game. If that is what is breaking the game for you then you are seriously overreacting.

#7 Edited by Panpipe (472 posts) -

I'm not going to buy DD, at least not near release, but it seems obvious that this game is about depth rather than polish.

If they could do it they'd do it. They're not crazy. Given time/money constraints they've decided to focus on gameplay rather than cutscenes of doors. Big deal?

#8 Edited by BraveToaster (12590 posts) -

I don't care about action items. I'm in a world filled with chimeras and fucking griffons... maybe it's possible for doors to open on their own. At least that's the excuse I'm using.

#9 Posted by EXTomar (4444 posts) -

Some games just aren't built or made to appeal to you. Nothing wrong with playing a demo and not liking it.

#10 Posted by RVonE (4601 posts) -

I don't know why that upsets you so much. Evidently, this game will have a ton of flaws and design choices some players will disagree with. That said, most of the things I've seen of this game totally appeals to me and I'm really excited for this game. So in sum, opinions.

#11 Posted by drag (1223 posts) -

I don't even remember that bit.

#12 Posted by Iron_Tool (215 posts) -

I'm not saying the game will be bad and I am also not overreacting. I'm just disappointed that they would go through the effort to make cut scenes on action items that totally break the immersion. They could have left the cut scenes out and just animate the door opening in-game come on that is not a big complicated thing to do.

It's like having a fancy dinner but having to eat it with plastic silverware and drink out plastic cups. ;)

#13 Posted by Gargantuan (1880 posts) -

What's an action item?

#14 Posted by RVonE (4601 posts) -

@Iron_Tool said:

I'm not saying the game will be bad and I am also not overreacting. I'm just disappointed that they would go through the effort to make cut scenes on action items that totally break the immersion. They could have left the cut scenes out and just animate the door opening in-game come on that is not a big complicated thing to do.

It's like having a fancy dinner but having to eat it with plastic silverware and drink out plastic cups. ;)

I think the reason why some people feel like you're overreacting has more to do with the title of your thread than with the actual content of your post.

Anyway, I like that analogy about the fancy dinner with the plastic utensils and cups, but I haven't found that cut scene to break my immersion one bit. I don't think the developers thought it was complicated to animate the door opening but rather they made a particular (somewhat out-dated) design choice.

#15 Edited by Karkarov (2942 posts) -

@Iron_Tool said:

I'm not saying the game will be bad and I am also not overreacting. I'm just disappointed that they would go through the effort to make cut scenes on action items that totally break the immersion. They could have left the cut scenes out and just animate the door opening in-game come on that is not a big complicated thing to do.

It's like having a fancy dinner but having to eat it with plastic silverware and drink out plastic cups. ;)

Uh .... what? Your immersion was broken because a door was opening on it's own in a cutscene? A door inside the lair of a mystical dragon the size of a 5 story building that featured a magic stone you could use to summon dudes out of thin air? And your immersion was broken because the door with the giant freaking magical god like dragon behind it somewhere opened on it's own? So the Chimera and the harpies were all totally believable but the idea that a door can open on it's own in a world where a dude can summon meteors out of the sky was too much for you?

This is the part where you try to convince me you aren't over reacting right? Sorry but you are.... like a lot. Did it ever dawn on you that maybe the Dragon was opening it with magic? I mean he was talking to you during the whole scene. Or that maybe there was a mechanism on the other side of the door one of the dragon's yes men was using and you just couldn't see him?

PS: The demo is only meant to show off the basics of the gameplay, to say the game is far far deeper than what you see in the demo is the understatement of the year. You are talking about a game that actually has effects based on how much your character weighs dude. Trust me the gameplay gets far more varied and technical further in... not to mention harder.

#16 Posted by Jrinswand (1695 posts) -
@Iron_Tool said:

I'm not saying the game will be bad and I am also not overreacting. I'm just disappointed that they would go through the effort to make cut scenes on action items that totally break the immersion. They could have left the cut scenes out and just animate the door opening in-game come on that is not a big complicated thing to do.

Three words: Capcom. Resident. Evil.
#17 Posted by Iron_Tool (215 posts) -

@Karkarov said:

@Iron_Tool said:

I'm not saying the game will be bad and I am also not overreacting. I'm just disappointed that they would go through the effort to make cut scenes on action items that totally break the immersion. They could have left the cut scenes out and just animate the door opening in-game come on that is not a big complicated thing to do.

It's like having a fancy dinner but having to eat it with plastic silverware and drink out plastic cups. ;)

Uh .... what? Your immersion was broken because a door was opening on it's own in a cutscene? A door inside the lair of a mystical dragon the size of a 5 story building that featured a magic stone you could use to summon dudes out of thin air? And your immersion was broken because the door with the giant freaking magical god like dragon behind it somewhere opened on it's own? So the Chimera and the harpies were all totally believable but the idea that a door can open on it's own in a world where a dude can summon meteors out of the sky was too much for you?

This is the part where you try to convince me you aren't over reacting right? Sorry but you are.... like a lot. Did it ever dawn on you that maybe the Dragon was opening it with magic? I mean he was talking to you during the whole scene. Or that maybe there was a mechanism on the other side of the door one of the dragon's yes men was using and you just couldn't see him?

PS: The demo is only meant to show off the basics of the gameplay, to say the game is far far deeper than what you see in the demo is the understatement of the year. You are talking about a game that actually has effects based on how much your character weighs dude. Trust me the gameplay gets far more varied and technical further in... not to mention harder.

I think you are missing the point here. Why would my immersion be broken when I encounter a huge Dragon in a fantasy RPG? I am also not arguing that the game won't be deep, difficult etc.

All I'm saying is that it is disappointing that they have made such an odd design choice to animate opening of in a cut scene (a door that you open yourself with a lever) and neither you or anyone of your party is seen during the sequence while you are clearly at the gate.

#18 Posted by Jrinswand (1695 posts) -
@Iron_Tool said:

@Karkarov said:

I think you are missing the point here. Why would my immersion be broken when I encounter a huge Dragon in a fantasy RPG? I am also not arguing that the game won't be deep, difficult etc.

All I'm saying is that it is disappointing that they have made such an odd design choice to animate opening of in a cut scene (a door that you open yourself with a lever) and neither you or anyone of your party is seen during the sequence while you are clearly at the gate.

You don't play a lot of Japanese games, do you?
#19 Posted by RVonE (4601 posts) -

@Karkarov said:

PS: The demo is only meant to show off the basics of the gameplay, to say the game is far far deeper than what you see in the demo is the understatement of the year. You are talking about a game that actually has effects based on how much your character weighs dude. Trust me the gameplay gets far more varied and technical further in... not to mention harder.

See, I find that interesting but I seem to suck at digging up information about this game so I'll ask you. What, roughly, are the effects of weight in this game. Let's say I'm a warrior and I'm on the light end of the scale, how would that affect me? And the other way around, a warrior that is on the heavy end of the scale?

#20 Edited by VDay (25 posts) -

@RVonE: Being heavier essentially lets you carry more items easier. There are categories of encumbrance ranging from Very Light to Overencumbered. So, for example, a heavy character carrying 40kg worth of stuff might be considered "Light" and have the stamina drain/regen that's associated with that, whereas a really skinny character carrying 40kg would be in the Heavy category and would be slowed down by the weight. The downside is that being heavier means your stamina naturally drains quicker and you don't run as fast as a skinny/light character. A heavier character can also weigh down flying enemies like harpies and griffins (or at least make it more difficult for them to take off/fly away) compared to a skinny character.

Also having YOUR IMMERSION broken by a door opening animation is my new favorite ridiculous complaint about this game.

#21 Posted by RVonE (4601 posts) -

@VDay: Hey, thanks for that bit of info; 't was really helpful.

#22 Posted by JasonR86 (9578 posts) -

You're letting nit-picking ruin your experience.

#23 Posted by gamefreak9 (2335 posts) -

I agree with you its very Janky. I've seen some warrior/rogue gameplay and it looks horrible, though the mage class still looks interesting since there's less unit collision.

#24 Posted by Karkarov (2942 posts) -

@RVonE: @VDay:

Uh that is part of it Vday.... It is all on the DD overview page (I know because I put it there) however I didn't get brutally specific so...

It goes like this. There are two things in character creation that matter. Height and Weight.

1 - Height: The taller you are the larger your character is in game and your body/weapons scale to reflect this. So a tall character will have superior arm and melee weapon reach. However... your hit box scales with your body so a smaller character gets a slight advantage in being harder to hit.

2 - Weight: There are 5 categories of weight. I will forgo using the weird Japanese names and call them Tiny: Anything weighing less than 50 Kg, Small: 50-69 Kg, Average: 70-89 Kg, Large: 90-109 Kg, and Huge: 110 and higher Kg.

The more you weigh the greater the bonus you get to carry capacity and resistance to "force" based attacks like a Griffin buffeting you with his wings. You also weigh down monsters you climb on more effectively (no kidding?) so for example a fat dude helps drag a Griffin down from the sky easier. Lastly you are also harder for monsters to toss off cause you weigh so much.

The lower the weight of the character the greater the bonus you get to stamina usage, meaning a light dude uses less stam per action, stamina regen speed, and movement speed. Also light characters have an easier time moving around while they are climbing a monster, so they can get on a cyclops head and start stabbing faster.

The catch is that everything heavy character get a bonus to is penalized on light characters and vice-versa. Average characters get no bonus or penalty to any of these things.

#25 Posted by Sterling (2050 posts) -

@Iron_Tool said:

So I played the Demo and I must say that I am disappointed. The game play is so-so, nothing really exciting so far, it might get better if there is a good story attached to this.

But the thing that got me the most was the action items like opening gates. Totally destroyed the immersion! You get a pre-canned cut scene of that gate opening from a different angle but no one is standing behind it (and you and your whole party are at the gate). What is this? The nineties??

I was hoping that this would be a great game considering what kind of pedigree Capcom through at this and there is a good chance that the game will be alright but why would you make a design decision like this?? Why take a stupid shortcut like this that cheapens the whole experience?

What do you guys think?

I don't think I understand your complaint about the canned animation. Don't countless games do this? I have never had an issue with it myself. So I guess what I am asking you is, do you have an issue with all games that do this? Or is this just something you are against in this specific game?

I mean, you have to take into account, that you are with pawns that can be swapped out at random at anytime. And that is after all a pre rendered cut scene. The resources that would be used to make that work would take away from other parts of the game. So in my opinion that is acceptable.

#26 Edited by PenguinDust (12436 posts) -

The demo was over in a blink of an eye. I don't see how anyone can get form a solid opinion considering. Honestly, I spent more time in the player creation than in the two demo levels combined. Now, I am interested in it from what I played and what I saw of game play on YouTube but I am not slapping down any money for a pre-order until I read some reviews. Everything I believe today could be completely wrong. It wouldn't be the first time.

@Karkarov: After reading your post, I began to wonder something. Now I chose a tiny character with low weight for my main and a taller companion with some strength. During the second demo, my companion kept tossing me into the air and onto the sky born gryphon. Did that happen to everyone or if I had created a pair of equal weight and height would it not have been possible? Or if the main character had been the giant and the companion the whelp, would it have called out for me to toss it upwards? I'm not going to go back and try, but I'm curious now to know if weight and height change other aspects beyond "to hit" combat.

#27 Posted by gamefreak9 (2335 posts) -

@Karkarov: what's the point of this system? it seems to be that mages would rather be light and warriors heavy. Though it might be more interesting for rogue types.

#28 Posted by MikeGosot (3227 posts) -

You can set a griffin on fire and throw explosive barrels in a cyclops. The doors could be in 2D and even then i wouldn't care.

#29 Posted by Chemin (632 posts) -

Wow.

#30 Posted by RVonE (4601 posts) -

@Karkarov said:

@RVonE: @VDay:

Uh that is part of it Vday.... It is all on the DD overview page (I know because I put it there) however I didn't get brutally specific so...

It goes like this. There are two things in character creation that matter. Height and Weight.

1 - Height: The taller you are the larger your character is in game and your body/weapons scale to reflect this. So a tall character will have superior arm and melee weapon reach. However... your hit box scales with your body so a smaller character gets a slight advantage in being harder to hit.

2 - Weight: There are 5 categories of weight. I will forgo using the weird Japanese names and call them Tiny: Anything weighing less than 50 Kg, Small: 50-69 Kg, Average: 70-89 Kg, Large: 90-109 Kg, and Huge: 110 and higher Kg.

The more you weigh the greater the bonus you get to carry capacity and resistance to "force" based attacks like a Griffin buffeting you with his wings. You also weigh down monsters you climb on more effectively (no kidding?) so for example a fat dude helps drag a Griffin down from the sky easier. Lastly you are also harder for monsters to toss off cause you weigh so much.

The lower the weight of the character the greater the bonus you get to stamina usage, meaning a light dude uses less stam per action, stamina regen speed, and movement speed. Also light characters have an easier time moving around while they are climbing a monster, so they can get on a cyclops head and start stabbing faster.

The catch is that everything heavy character get a bonus to is penalized on light characters and vice-versa. Average characters get no bonus or penalty to any of these things.

Hmmm, and those weight scales also apply to women?

The fact that average weight doesn't get a bonus or penalty is interesting. I wonder if that's somehow helpful. Depends on the actual offset on both sides of the equation, I guess.

At this moment, my character apparently falls in the 'small' category. I'm now contemplating on upscaling to 'average'.

#31 Edited by Genkkaku (732 posts) -

@Karkarov said:

@RVonE: @VDay:

Uh that is part of it Vday.... It is all on the DD overview page (I know because I put it there) however I didn't get brutally specific so...

It goes like this. There are two things in character creation that matter. Height and Weight.

1 - Height: The taller you are the larger your character is in game and your body/weapons scale to reflect this. So a tall character will have superior arm and melee weapon reach. However... your hit box scales with your body so a smaller character gets a slight advantage in being harder to hit.

2 - Weight: There are 5 categories of weight. I will forgo using the weird Japanese names and call them Tiny: Anything weighing less than 50 Kg, Small: 50-69 Kg, Average: 70-89 Kg, Large: 90-109 Kg, and Huge: 110 and higher Kg.

The more you weigh the greater the bonus you get to carry capacity and resistance to "force" based attacks like a Griffin buffeting you with his wings. You also weigh down monsters you climb on more effectively (no kidding?) so for example a fat dude helps drag a Griffin down from the sky easier. Lastly you are also harder for monsters to toss off cause you weigh so much.

The lower the weight of the character the greater the bonus you get to stamina usage, meaning a light dude uses less stam per action, stamina regen speed, and movement speed. Also light characters have an easier time moving around while they are climbing a monster, so they can get on a cyclops head and start stabbing faster.

The catch is that everything heavy character get a bonus to is penalized on light characters and vice-versa. Average characters get no bonus or penalty to any of these things.

This sounds very Demon/Dark Souls influenced but more fleshed out based on the actual build on your character, making you put more thought on how you create him/her

Makes me want the game out more

#32 Posted by VDay (25 posts) -

@gamefreak9 said:

@Karkarov: what's the point of this system? it seems to be that mages would rather be light and warriors heavy. Though it might be more interesting for rogue types.

The point is to give you more freedom/choice in how you play the game instead of the character creator being for purely cosmetic purposes. It's a very standard/generic D&D fantasy world, but you don't have to be the generic fighter/warrior if you don't want to be.

#33 Posted by DeF (4775 posts) -

@HadesTimes said:

It's a very long game and probably the demo is very old code. I would AT LEAST rent the final version before getting upset about it.

confirmed to be the exact demo they've been showing since last year. so the build is at least a year old.

do what hadestimes suggested, rent the retail when it's out.

#34 Posted by Marz (5641 posts) -

if a door opening by itself gives you the biggest problem... then perhaps this game isn't for you.

#35 Posted by Karkarov (2942 posts) -

@gamefreak9: Dragon's Dogma has one of if not the best character customizing systems I have ever seen in an rpg and this is part of it. This stuff is there to give you something to consider when you make a character and allow you to design someone that fits exactly what you want. Of course this stuff is also not make or break, you can ignore it and just make the character you like the look of the most and it will be okay.

@PenguinDust: Uh no, the toss is a fighter class skill that ultimately is also usable by assassins, warriors, and possibly mystic knights. It has nothing to do with how heavy the tossed / tosser is. So yeah, a dude who is like 110 in height weighing 40 Kg can throw a dude who is 220 something in height weighing 115 Kg.

@RVonE: Yes, those scales apply the same to men and women.

#36 Posted by AngelN7 (2970 posts) -

I'm not playing Dragon's Dogma for the immersion I'm playing it for the quick combos the grapling mechanic and I don't know ... Griffons.

#37 Posted by Tennmuerti (7956 posts) -

@VDay said:

@gamefreak9 said:

@Karkarov: what's the point of this system? it seems to be that mages would rather be light and warriors heavy. Though it might be more interesting for rogue types.

The point is to give you more freedom/choice in how you play the game instead of the character creator being for purely cosmetic purposes. It's a very standard/generic D&D fantasy world, but you don't have to be the generic fighter/warrior if you don't want to be.

I can also totally see someone making a tiny fighter character for the exta mobility and less stamina expenditure, a melee fighter would benefit just as much from being agile and having a smaller hitbox as a melee rogue type.

Also seems perfectly cool to make a really huge beefy mage character :P You are staying at range anyway so extra mobility or hitbox aint a biggie, but you get to lug extra stuff around and not be so phased by force of attacks like in the example given by @Karkarov:

#38 Posted by Karkarov (2942 posts) -

@Tennmuerti said:

@VDay said:

@gamefreak9 said:

@Karkarov: what's the point of this system? it seems to be that mages would rather be light and warriors heavy. Though it might be more interesting for rogue types.

The point is to give you more freedom/choice in how you play the game instead of the character creator being for purely cosmetic purposes. It's a very standard/generic D&D fantasy world, but you don't have to be the generic fighter/warrior if you don't want to be.

I can also totally see someone making a tiny fighter character for the exta mobility and less stamina expenditure, a melee fighter would benefit just as much from being agile and having a smaller hitbox as a melee rogue type.

Also seems perfectly cool to make a really huge beefy mage character :P You are staying at range anyway so extra mobility or hitbox aint a biggie, but you get to lug extra stuff around and not be so phased by force of attacks like in the example given by @Karkarov:

Yeah it eventually get's more complex than that too. For example you can only slot 3 main weapon and 3 secondary weapons skills based on the weapons you are equipped with and alot of classes (especially the hybrids) have very specific advanced skills with specific weapons. Like an assassin who uses daggers can turn invisible but one who uses swords can plant and remotely detonate an explosive keg. When you factor in things like core class skills, skills from base classes that can transfer to other classes, the fact that your stat gain on level up is based on your current vocation, and all the character augments you can slot which each vocation has their own unique ones....

Lets just say running into two characters who are exactly alike will be highly unlikely and that two dudes who are the same vocation can play very differently.

#39 Posted by Yummylee (21203 posts) -

@Marz said:

if a door opening by itself gives you the biggest problem... then perhaps games aren't for you.
#40 Posted by gamefreak9 (2335 posts) -

@Tennmuerti said:

@VDay said:

@gamefreak9 said:

@Karkarov: what's the point of this system? it seems to be that mages would rather be light and warriors heavy. Though it might be more interesting for rogue types.

The point is to give you more freedom/choice in how you play the game instead of the character creator being for purely cosmetic purposes. It's a very standard/generic D&D fantasy world, but you don't have to be the generic fighter/warrior if you don't want to be.

I can also totally see someone making a tiny fighter character for the exta mobility and less stamina expenditure, a melee fighter would benefit just as much from being agile and having a smaller hitbox as a melee rogue type.

Also seems perfectly cool to make a really huge beefy mage character :P You are staying at range anyway so extra mobility or hitbox aint a biggie, but you get to lug extra stuff around and not be so phased by force of attacks like in the example given by @Karkarov:

I guess it could be cool! Though i'm not convinced yet, it I were to make a mage i'm pretty sure I would opt for small body type but I guess it depends on how annoying that encumbrance system is... I generally don't like those at all but if the gameplay is good enough I can probably live with it.

#41 Edited by Nekroskop (2786 posts) -

I'm really disappointed with the sub 30 FPS(sure feels like it) and black bars on top and bottom on the PS3 demo. I hope they improve that.

#42 Posted by VDay (25 posts) -

That's not really something that they can magically fix, so while the final version should be a little better I wouldn't expect some miraculous improvement.

#43 Posted by Iron_Tool (215 posts) -

@Karkarov: You seem to realllllly love the game. Well, good for you.

Another blow: Why does this game not have COOP? It seems like a no brainer, all you get is a , admittedly neat, feature in which your hero can be used by other players as a party member. It would have been nice to have coop included.

#44 Posted by Fearbeard (822 posts) -

Seriuosly TC, that is the deal breaker for you? If that was my biggest complaint about a game, then that would probably be the best game I've ever played.

#45 Posted by Draugen (616 posts) -

I don't care. I'm super pumped about Dragon's Dogma. The character creator alone has me salivating.

#46 Posted by VDay (25 posts) -

@Iron_Tool said:

Another blow: Why does this game not have COOP? It seems like a no brainer, all you get is a , admittedly neat, feature in which your hero can be used by other players as a party member. It would have been nice to have coop included.

Because they didn't want to make a co-op game? Despite what apparently everyone on the internet believes, adding co-op to a game isn't some super simple thing that they could've banged out in a month, especially in an open-world RPG. We can go in circles forever and argue about whether or not the game was at any point meant to have multiplayer in it, but the bottom line is Capcom decided that it's going to be a single player game. Also your hero isn't used by other players, only your pawn is because he's part of the pawn legion, which is the whole reason you get to magically summon pawns from other worlds.

#47 Posted by RVonE (4601 posts) -

@Draugen said:

I don't care. I'm super pumped about Dragon's Dogma. The character creator alone has me salivating.

Exactly!

#48 Posted by Sterling (2050 posts) -

@VDay: I have a feeling coop was left out due it breaking the pawn system somehow. So I for one am glad they left it out.

#49 Posted by Slag (3897 posts) -

Just played the demo myself and buddy I am sold on this. Will be getting, eventually.

maybe not right away though, money and all that.

don't care it doesn't have co-op (don't want it anyway) and the other quibbles people noted I didn't even notice so I guess they don't bother me.

#50 Posted by Brodehouse (9515 posts) -

Japanese games. They make a design choice due to technological limitations, and then when technology advances they just keep everything the same because "that's the things that games have". I can immediately tell a Japanese game by the main menu UI, it looks the same as it looked 15 years ago, everything looks like Dynasty Warriors menus because "that's how menus are supposed to look".

I always feel like Jeff when he was playing Yakuza 3 and notice every fight had an interminable 10 seconds where the camera swoops all over the battlefield like it would in a Final Fantasy a decade before. But "that's how games are made" and so why change it.

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