The press and their stance on USED GAMES?

#1 Edited by ProfessorEss (7451 posts) -

I feel like I missed something.

I've spent the last 2-3 years listening to how myself and anyone who buys or sells a used game is a scumbag. I've read endless articles about how we're killing the industry and how someone has to do something to stop us! Next thing I know what seems like the entire gaming press is giving Sony a standing ovation for their support of used games.

Am I missing something? Why is press (and their associated communities) suddenly all in favour of the used games industry?

#2 Posted by Aishan (1020 posts) -

I've spent the last 2-3 years listening to how myself and anyone who buys or sells a used game is a scumbag.

Source this claim please.

#3 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -
#4 Posted by devilzrule27 (1239 posts) -

Those are examples of developers saying used games suck and the media just reporting what they say.

#5 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

Those are examples of developers saying used games suck and the media just reporting what they say.

I thought better then to link all the forum comments I found with a quick Google search. Course I could do that if you really want.

#6 Posted by MildMolasses (3225 posts) -

@the_laughing_man: Those are developers shitting on used games, not the journalists

#7 Edited by ProfessorEss (7451 posts) -

@aishan: I'm just making a post and asking a question. I don't have the time or desire to go through endless podcasts digging up time stamps where it's discussed.

If you don't believe me, or think the press has been on board with used games all along then fine we'll agree to disagree. But I can't help feel you must have been under a rock somewhere if you have no idea what I'm talking about.

#8 Posted by Lowfyr (21 posts) -

Only developers trying to reason their hate on used games...nothing more.

#9 Edited by Aishan (1020 posts) -

@professoress said:

@aishan: I'm just making a post and asking a question. I don't have the time or desire to go through endless podcasts digging up time stamps where it's discussed.

If you don't believe me, or think the press has been on board with used games all along then fine we'll agree to disagree. But I can't help feel you must have been under a rock somewhere if you have no idea what I'm talking about.

If you cannot back up your point that the gaming press has been staunchly anti-used then your question has no merit.

#10 Edited by neoepoch (1295 posts) -

This is why I think the press is out of touch with the consumer. Buying a close to launch used game can be scummy sure, I mean the price is only generally $5 cheaper, but what about the games that aren't pressed anymore? I can't buy every game at launch and sometimes I wait a couple months to get a game, and some games stopped getting pressed even after that time because they are niche. Sometimes you just hear of a title that you missed and want to go back and get a copy of, but there aren't any NEW copies anymore so how am I supposed to get them? I suppose in a digital future that doesn't matter, but if these DRM policies happened with the last generations, I wouldn't be able to get my hands on a copy of SMT: Strange Journey or Amped 3 or something along those lines. I understand that supporting the devs is important and I do that whenever I can, but to say that used games is what is killing the industry is just idiotic. It is the bloated budgets, over hiring of developers for those teams, and other issues that the publishers do themselves that cause problems within the industry.

#11 Posted by neoepoch (1295 posts) -

@aishan said:

@professoress said:

@aishan: I'm just making a post and asking a question. I don't have the time or desire to go through endless podcasts digging up time stamps where it's discussed.

If you don't believe me, or think the press has been on board with used games all along then fine we'll agree to disagree. But I can't help feel you must have been under a rock somewhere if you have no idea what I'm talking about.

If you cannot back up your assurtation that the gaming press has been staunchly anti-used then your question has no merit.

Go talk to Ben Kuchera and his "pals". Also it is assertion, not assurtation.

#12 Posted by Dixavd (1359 posts) -

I think it was less about being against Used Games, and more about how the current Used Game market wasn't very good. In general, the press are against monopolies. With the current used game market, Gamespot and Amazon have a very large monopoly on the market; but people can still share games with friends and family and sell them via Ebay. On the other hand, it is a shitty move to buy a pre-owned version of the game within a week of release to save a fiver.

Then, if the used market is blocked, then Microsoft (and/or Sony) gain a complete monopoly. This would be a bad thing, as there would be no incentive to lower prices (and it could easily weaken the industry as less people buy games due to it being perpetually expensive). At least on the PC there is some competition (in fact, there is a pretty amazing array of sales on PC which - while sometimes a small margin - continues to give money to the developers and publishers years after release).

#13 Posted by Sweep (8927 posts) -

I think it's more a case of people applauding Sony for listening to their consumers and giving their fans what they want. As Alex explained in his article, the standing ovation is more for the receptiveness of Sony than for any of their actions in itself.

Neither online DRM or used games make any difference to me. I'm online 24/7 already, and if I want a game I will pre-order it, the polar opposite of buying it used. I was still much more impressed by Sony's conference than Microsofts, purely because they gave they people what they want, instead of telling them what they should want.

Moderator
#14 Edited by Brendan (7845 posts) -

With the exception of that one Ben Kuchera article, I haven't heard the press lament the selling of used games. I've heard the admission that, to developers, it may as well be stealing since they don't see any money from the sale. I've also seen them say that Gamestop's used strategy is scummy. Both of those things are true, and don't require a negative "stance" on used games. I don't have the time to frequent most gaming sites though, so I only see what I see.

#15 Posted by ProfessorEss (7451 posts) -
@sweep said:

I think it's more a case of people applauding Sony for listening to their consumers and giving their fans what they want. As Alex explained in his article, the standing ovation is more for the receptiveness of Sony than for any of their actions in itself.

Yeah, that makes sense.

#16 Edited by EXTomar (4849 posts) -

I don't think journalists think "used games" are bad but they recognize and comment on effects. Especially if you listen to a wide range of podcasts most seem pretty neutral.

In any event, this is a giant "whatever" from me. What do I care if some journalist thinks used games are blight? Just like a review that is their opinion and I will not stop them from having.

#17 Posted by golguin (3972 posts) -

I think the gaming press was generally shocked that all the anger at the Xbox One coming out of the internet's "vocal minority" wasn't as minor as they thought. The very nature of their job causes them to live in their bubble. Remember how the gaming media was excited about the possibility of an all digital console where they didn't need to keep game disks? I'm glad all that was thrown in their face. The people and regular consumers have spoken. All the negative reaction to Microsoft's Xbox One can be found in EVERY ONLINE PLACE THAT ALLOWS COMMENTS.

On the flipside you have Sony and their announcement at the press conference. I'd say that the video that Sony put out showing their used game policies is proof that the people will not tolerate anti consumer policies. The video almost has 8 million views with 233,360 likes.

Online
#18 Edited by Fuwano (145 posts) -

I just ignore anything any games writer says about prices or anything else relating to the purchase/sale of games. They are going to buy them all the systems anyway, and get a lot of games for free (or at least get to play them free, only purchasing games they really want to play more). A game writer's perspective is going to be so distorted and distant from a regular gamer's experience in this matter.

#19 Posted by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -

It's a bit weird yes.
Also I've seen people say "It's more that sony listened to the Twitter Hashtag campaign stuff" which is just not true. It's probably the dumbest thing a person has said in the history of humans walking on earth.
It's just not true, at all. Before this crusade to fight for Gamestop, back in February actually, Sony already said "Nope, none of that will happen on our system" in regards to the DRM and the Used Games stuff.

But as have also been said, the hashtag campaign was a great free advertisement and got people talking about the PS4

#20 Posted by Brodehouse (10080 posts) -

I am not a games journalist/writer/whatever. I don't like used games. It's not "trying to reason to justify hating them", it's common sense; I think the people who actually make the product should get paid for its use, not the middleman pawn shop managers. Because its the devs who are going to make games that I want to play, not GameStop. THQ goes out of business, GameStop posts record profits.

I don't have any problem with the companies that make the games creating some sort of buy-back system, or a rental service, or something. I hate the idea of these third parties that do not produce or even fund the production of the entertainment I love walking away with all the money.

#21 Edited by ProfessorEss (7451 posts) -

@brodehouse said:

THQ goes out of business, GameStop posts record profits.

Yeah, that is pretty sad.

So would say that you are (in some way at least) in favour of Microsoft's move to curb used game sales? (Even if you're not in favour of how they're doing it)

#22 Posted by buckybit (1455 posts) -

A) So called "video game journalists" - channel what they hear from developers and publishers?

B) So called "video game journalists" are out of touch with the consumers? These media monkeys get their free copies of games, often reviewing them but not knowing how much they cost to 'real people': parents, school children, low-income workers, etc, etc ...

This is the same generalization they pull off, of course. Btw, Jason Rubin said some very smart things about the consumer and used-games yesterday on #GTE3 "BONUS ROUND" - worth watching. The discussion also included some Jeff Gerstmann.

#23 Edited by Oldirtybearon (4851 posts) -

@brodehouse: They had to sell that copy in the first place in order for a game to be traded back/pawned/whatever.

Creators are entitled to that first sale, but not private selling between the original purchaser and any other party.

#24 Posted by elitefury (55 posts) -

It's not about being against the Used Games. It's about User Rights, the ability to what you want with disc without restrictions.

#25 Posted by MonkeyKing1969 (2905 posts) -

I feel like I missed something.

I've spent the last 2-3 years listening to how myself and anyone who buys or sells a used game is a scumbag. I've read endless articles about how we're killing the industry and how someone has to do something to stop us! Next thing I know what seems like the entire gaming press is giving Sony a standing ovation for their support of used games.

Am I missing something? Why is press (and their associated communities) suddenly all in favour of the used games industry?

Freedom. This is not about used games, it about ownership (however legally flimsy) and the ability to determine what you do with a physical disc. Microsoft started the discussion with the concept of fixing (lol) the 'used game' scenarios because it seemed safe, but for the rest of us this is an issue of 'sharing' a disc with a friend, deciding where, when and how to 'sell back' a disc. To be honest I think you know this, you are trying to use sophistry to turn it around, but unless you are simply not listening you know this is about 'sharing' and 'selling' not about used games.

#26 Posted by JazGalaxy (1576 posts) -

@brodehouse said:

THQ goes out of business, GameStop posts record profits.

Yeah, that is pretty sad.

So would say that you are (in some way at least) in favour of Microsoft's move to curb used game sales? (Even if you're not in favour of how they're doing it)

I don't really have a problem with what MS is doing aside from making the console call home every 24 hours. That puts it out of the running as a console I would ever buy. Whether MS wants to believe it or no, I don't play many if any games online. I BUY them online, but I play them single player.

#27 Edited by Trilogy (2675 posts) -

Well, I'm not so sure that the press was as spiteful against consumer's relationship with used games as you claim. That being said, we have to keep in mind that the press are only pseudo consumers. A lot of them are sent free games from publishers in the mail, or, they wake up to find free games ready to download in their steam clients. That's not how a typical gamer consumes games. Therefore, there's going to be some disconnect between how they view the industry, and how we view it. Again, I'm not necessarily agreeing with your accusation, but it is food for thought.

#28 Posted by Brodehouse (10080 posts) -

@professoress: I suppose. I'm more a fan of Steam, but with the addition of a buyback/desync or some more effective trading or lending scheme.

@oldirtybearon: Agreed, it still doesn't change that I hold the principle that the actual creator of the game should benefit when people make use of the product of his or her labor, along with the consumer receiving some compensation for no longer having access to it. Where it becomes a sticking point is when GameStop appears, and basically operates like an unlicensed theater or a predatory pawn shop.

@elitefury: You have the right to do whatever you want with the disc, but you actually don't have the right to do whatever you want with the data on it, and there is no right that says a product you've purchased has to retain value to others. You are right in that they cannot prevent you from reselling the disc, but that doesn't mean it will retain value to a second-hand customer, in the same way a used sandwich doesn't retain value to a second-hand customer.

#29 Posted by leftie68 (215 posts) -

It's not about being against the Used Games. It's about User Rights, the ability to what you want with disc without restrictions.

This! Games really blur the line between a digital licensing service and a product subject to Buyers right to resell, etc. It is funny, this problem has already been solved. Provide users with an easier to use, vastly superior service AND those consumers will be happy to "license" a digital service. Look at Rhapsody, Steam, and Netflix. All provide a superior platform to use a digital license on things that once were considered a resellable product. The difference between these services and Microsoft is that Microsoft gives NO additional incentive other than to tell gamers, "F you, we say this is a digital service and you will deal with it." How the hell is this something not worth defending?!

#30 Edited by ProfessorEss (7451 posts) -
#31 Posted by ProfessorEss (7451 posts) -

@brodehouse: For me Steam just lets its prices do all the talking and it's all I need to hear. Sony and Microsoft can bicker at each other all they want but I'm ignoring both of them until one of them addresses how they plan to compete with Steam.

@jazgalaxy: Yeah the check-in thing is pretty shitty. Despite people like you apparently not actually existing I know a couple people who don't connect. I actually have a friend who still has The Blades because he has never once plugged an internet cable into his machine and the XBox in my bedroom hasn't been connected in years.

#32 Posted by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -

@brodehouse: For me Steam just lets its prices do all the talking and it's all I need to hear. Sony and Microsoft can bicker at each other all they want but I'm ignoring both of them until one of them addresses how they plan to compete with Steam.

@jazgalaxy: Yeah the check-in thing is pretty shitty. Despite people like you apparently not actually existing I know a couple people who don't connect. I actually have a friend who still has The Blades because he has never once plugged an internet cable into his machine and the XBox in my bedroom hasn't been connected in years.

When you say Steam just lets its prices do all the talking do you mean for Valve game specifically? Because that's really the only prices Valve can change at all. The deals and stuff like that for 3rd party games aren't something some Valve employee just decides to do. Which you kinda make it sound like, but that might just be me reading too much into it though so no ill intent

#33 Posted by iAmJohn (6128 posts) -

@brodehouse: For me Steam just lets its prices do all the talking and it's all I need to hear. Sony and Microsoft can bicker at each other all they want but I'm ignoring both of them until one of them addresses how they plan to compete with Steam.

The entire reason that Steam can (and does) do this, however, is because they're being attacked on all sides. If I want a PC game and I don't want to buy it from Steam, I can go not only to retail and buy a disc, but GamersGate, Gamefly, Amazon, Green Man, GOG, Impulse, Desura, Origin, Uplay, IGN (they were selling games for a while, after all), a developer's website... I could go on. Without these sales, it would be far more difficult for Steam to stand out from this crowd - it's the old adage of competition breeds innovation. With a closed platform where Microsoft controls every end of distribution as they will with Xbox One (remember how Live currently works on 360 - they set the prices for everything on the service) what's the impetus for them to ever compete with Steam? If you bought the platform, you're entirely at their whim. You can make the argument all you want about "but Sony could do this or Steam could do that," but they don't care. They expect that you'll buy this platform and be stuck in their ecosystem where they can make all the rules and you have no say.

#34 Edited by ProfessorEss (7451 posts) -

@zeforgotten: I was more saying that when a service offers prices like Steam they really don't have to go much deeper into their bullet list of features than that to convince me that it is, for the time being, the way to go.

@iamjohn: I agree that the only reason Valve does this is because they have to but it doesn't change the fact that as of right now, they are doing it and it's more than enough to keep me in their ecosystem until things change :)

#35 Posted by iAmJohn (6128 posts) -

@professoress: Oh definitely, and they're amazing for it. I just think it's worth remembering why Valve does Steam like this. Ever since the Xbox One unveiling, people have been repeating that Microsoft could do exactly what Steam does-just you wait!-and everyone will be happy and not caring about their consumer rights being stripped. The problem is, they seem to think it'll happen just because Valve does it without putting any consideration into why Valve does it.

#36 Posted by ZeForgotten (10397 posts) -
#37 Posted by ProfessorEss (7451 posts) -

@iamjohn: We'll have to wait and see. Who knows, maybe this time next year we'll find Sony and/or Microsoft in a position of "HAVE TO".

And as far as rights being stripped, I'll allow a vendor to strip one right away for every 20% they take off of the price. This feels fair to me anyways.

I know what you might be thinking: So what do we do after we've given up all our rights in the name of cheaper software and they jack up all the prices? Well that answer is easier for me than most. When the cost to entertainment ratio of playing videogames finally gets completely out-of-whack I'll just find a new hobby :)

...I was thinking about learning how to weld?

#38 Posted by Hunter5024 (5821 posts) -

There's a lot of mixed signals from the press I think. I believe consumers like to think of the press as their voice to the publishers, but because of the relationships they have with the industry, they really aren't, and it gives them kind of a skewed perspective on anti-consumer, pro-industry policies.

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