Let's Talk - How Can We Make Eroge (Hentai) Popular Outside Japan

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#1 Edited by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -

Sup guys, I was going to title this "Yo Bitches, Why The Fuck You Don't Like Neko Sex, You Whores", but due to the new TOS I can't do that.   
 
Recently, a user made a thread about his enjoyment of a game involving sex with a Neko and it was sadly locked due to some of the immaturity of some users who did nothing but put images of random stuff.   
 
Let's get one thing out of the way, some of the best Eroge games have close to ZERO sex and focus on the plot with strong character development.  Most of the better games have two versions that are "Uncut" or "Lack Sex", in the latter case...the sex is implied.  These games sell millions and millions in Japan and are strong sales for the PS2/PS3...hell all the PS3 ones have Trophies for the players to unlock. 
 
Females love them as you can also romance with males while giving great plots, and the males love it because they often give good plots.  The Eroge Genre isn't just about sex, but also story.   
 
Let's Talk, how can this genre come into the States or Europe without everyone freaking out?  Should they just release the non-sex versions of the games?  Or is there another way to do this?   
 
Discuss. 
 

#2 Posted by Fallen189 (5052 posts) -

You know exactly how, but you're being coy. Many eroge games are just detestable and feature irredeemable characters. 
 
By saying the best "Eroge" games feature no sex makes me think you're confusing them with "Galga" games, which are the non sexualised form of an eroge. 
 
There won't ever be a cross over for it to break into the West, sorry. As much as you might want to be able to freely buy some kind of imouto grooming game in the land of the free, it won't happen because of the board of regulations that decree what can and can't be published in the West.  
 
That's just how it is.

#3 Posted by Landon (4164 posts) -

Celebrity endorsement.

#4 Posted by JoyfullOFrockets (1177 posts) -
#5 Edited by Mr_Skeleton (5154 posts) -

I just checked what games are under the Eroge concept and your argument doesn't hold water...

#6 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -
@Fallen189: You could totally get TooHeart2 with English Text and people wouldn't freak out.  The censored version is pretty much an anime and if Sony gave it a chance, I bet all the people into JRPGs would try it out.  I got a hunch a good percentage of JRPG fans always wanted to really try out this genre but can't do it due to language skills or lack of way to play imported titles.   
 
If Sony brought over a tame version, they could do it.  I think so.
#7 Posted by Andorski (5365 posts) -

Bioware games.  Sexual encounters already exist in games that are popular in the west. 
 
I think what makes these games taboo is the fact that sex is the prime focus of the product.  Sure, one can argue that there is a strong narrative within the game, but (I'm guessing) the main point is still about getting your character laid. 
 
I think it's analogous to movies.  R-Rated movies can have nudity and sexual encounters which is acceptable to the mainstream adult audience.  Meanwhile, there is porn that consist of storylines and scene that solely serve to move it's narrative.  Yet, it's still considered porn.

#8 Posted by ThatFrood (3391 posts) -

:|
If you want a serious answer, then it'd be: "we'd have to intrinsically change western society and overturn the heavy christian foundations of most of our cultures."
I.E.: we don't and this is silly

#9 Posted by Theworldbreaker (173 posts) -

Oh god why would anyone want to make hentai so popular? i mean realy, if you want to see "it" so bad may as well watch porn. Ok maby i'm overeacting a little but realy.....
#10 Posted by ryanwho (12082 posts) -

kaosangel is Andy Kaufman.

#11 Posted by JoyfullOFrockets (1177 posts) -

To be honest here, I find that Mr. KaosAngel just likes the visual novel aspect of these games, not the prime motive of sex and all that. There's lots of visual novel games that have nothing sexual about them yet they never leave Japan. And that's a damn shame.

#12 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -
@theworldbreaker: But you do it in Mass Effect and Heavy Rain, you build up relationships and CAN have sex.  You see the sex, in the tamer Japanese ones you DON'T SEE IT.  The only difference here is that all the images are drawn, and it relies fully on the voice acting and the script (which is often written by novelists in Japan).
#13 Posted by GlenTennis (3145 posts) -
@ryanwho said:
" kaosangel is Andy Kaufman. "
I knew he faked his death!
#14 Posted by Fallen189 (5052 posts) -
@KaosAngel said:
" @Fallen189: You could totally get TooHeart2 with English Text and people wouldn't freak out.  The censored version is pretty much an anime and if Sony gave it a chance, I bet all the people into JRPGs would try it out.  I got a hunch a good percentage of JRPG fans always wanted to really try out this genre but can't do it due to language skills or lack of way to play imported titles.    If Sony brought over a tame version, they could do it.  I think so. "
That's ONE example, but you're arguing to get the entire genre of erotic visual novels brought over. It's just not gonna happen. Things like Phoenix Wright, 999, Hotel Room are already popularizing Japanese visual novel style games in the West, but we're a long way away, if ever, from having sex novels seen as a legitimate product. 
 
Plus, everyone's a prude.
#15 Posted by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -
@JoyfullOFrockets said:
" To be honest here, I find that Mr. KaosAngel just likes the visual novel aspect of these games, not the prime motive of sex and all that. There's lots of visual novel games that have nothing sexual about them yet they never leave Japan. And that's a damn shame. "
Pretty much this.  There are some beautiful plots in these stories, and they often are based on novels that came out.  It's a way for people to experience the novels without having to read it.  The best of this genre have close to zero sex or it's implied.   It's a damn shame these games can't be given a chance outside of Japan.
#16 Posted by warxsnake (2650 posts) -

Because all those characters look like they are 14yrs old max

#17 Edited by Skald (4370 posts) -

A lot of people in the west think that video games and anime are for kids. It's not right, but it's the general zeitgeist that most politicians seem to go with. 
 
Thus, it's easier to avoid this controversy than meeting it head on, especially for a mega-brand like Sony.

#18 Posted by Theworldbreaker (173 posts) -
@KaosAngel:
Oh realy you do it in heavy rain to? i just wounder why people want to always get- actauly never mind.
#19 Posted by Kieran_ES (258 posts) -

Sorry, but no matter how much is implied as opposed to shown, the aesthetics of these games immediately put them in a distasteful light for most Westerners. People see images like the above and immediately think of minors, not only because of their physical appearance but because it's animated. These games come out of an entirely different culture, they're not going to ever fit into another easily.    
 
I am in no way against games that try to focus on relationships and intimacy as their core, but it has to be done well. I will concede to having never played one of these but I'm hesitant to believe they offer any interesting takes on love or sex. That's dismissive but oh well. 

#20 Posted by Xhephon (1 posts) -

About bringing this type of games to EU or US, heard of mangagamer? google it.

#21 Posted by OmegaChosen (647 posts) -

For one, you should probably stop referring to such games as Eroge or Hentai games. People see that and they are immediately going to assume you play them for sex, no matter what you claim otherwise. If you really only mean the ones that barely have any adult content, if at all, you would probably be better off calling them visual novels. There might be some semantic conflictions but" visual novel" doesn't bring up the same reactions or mental images as Eroge or Hentai does. At least for most people I think.
 
Second, it might be wise not to draw attention to catgirl sex games, no matter how much you want to play it. Kinda conflicts with the whole "playing these games for story, not sex" thing you're going for when people only interpret you saying "these girl-cats are super hot". 
 
All that said, gotta go with Fallen189. It's never going to happen.

#22 Posted by Swoxx (3008 posts) -

I'd be open to play a game like that, I just don't know any names or how to get a hold of them

#23 Edited by KaosAngel (13765 posts) -
@OmegaChosen: I think they push out Fate/Stay night, they could ease the NA/EU gamers into it.  The sex isn't too bad (can be totally censored if needed be), and it could open the flood gates.  Even VNs like Air could do it as the girls in that one tend to be older.  These games are more about coming to terms with the reality of being alive and with Air, I think it can even bring a few men to tear up with characters coming to terms with the situation in that plot.   
 
We can get Heavy Rain with sex, but anime isn't good enough.  Maybe if Kojima or Nomura pushed one out as a PSN game it could work, hopefully one day.  >.> 
 
EDIT:  KOJIMA TOTALLY DID IT WITH POLICENAUTS AND SNATCHER!  
#24 Posted by Jadeskye (4368 posts) -

I can't be the only one who believes these topics deserve to be on hentai foundry, 4 chan or perhaps anime vice. I like Hentai as much as the next person but god damn this shit just feels inappropriate!

#25 Posted by Aus_azn (2224 posts) -
@swoxx: Your opinion is in your avatar, hahah.
 
@KaosAngel: F/SN has appeared in sporadic forms over here, like Fate/Unlimited Codes and the like. I wonder why the main thing hasn't been brought over.
 
To your original argument, Fortune Arterial comes to mind; having just watched the anime and listening to some of my friends ranting about the game, I'm curious to see what would reach fruition on this side of the pond.
#26 Posted by MikkaQ (10344 posts) -

I think the mistakes being made here are the assumptions that these have good plots and character development. These are anime games, porn or not the characters are all terrible anime tropes, the plots are melodramatic (which is not a replacement for a good story), and the gameplay is limited at best. 
  
North American gamers don't even like regular non-porn visual novel type games. Mostly because of what I've described above. When they do become popular, it's in very specific cases like Phoenix Wright, which had elements of PC point and click adventure games, and thus got a pass.  
 
Visual novels are dumb, because they're like the classic SCUMM engine games, without any of the good writing and puzzle solving. And even those PC adventure games aren't smash hits with the public.  There's just not enough there to attract the north american gamer's interest. 

#27 Posted by FancySoapsMan (5818 posts) -
@XII_Sniper said:
" I think the mistakes being made here are the assumptions that these have good plots and character development. These are anime games, porn or not the characters are all terrible anime tropes, the plots are melodramatic (which is not a replacement for a good story), and the gameplay is limited at best.   North American gamers don't even like regular non-porn visual novel type games. Mostly because of what I've described above. When they do become popular, it's in very specific cases like Phoenix Wright, which had elements of PC point and click adventure games, and thus got a pass.   Visual novels are dumb, because they're like the classic SCUMM engine games, without any of the good writing and puzzle solving. And even those PC adventure games aren't smash hits with the public.  There's just not enough there to attract the north american gamer's interest.  "
Wow guy.
#28 Posted by Milkman (17312 posts) -

Pass.

#29 Posted by Fallen189 (5052 posts) -
@XII_Sniper said:
" I think the mistakes being made here are the assumptions that these have good plots and character development. These are anime games, porn or not the characters are all terrible anime tropes, the plots are melodramatic (which is not a replacement for a good story), and the gameplay is limited at best.   North American gamers don't even like regular non-porn visual novel type games. Mostly because of what I've described above. When they do become popular, it's in very specific cases like Phoenix Wright, which had elements of PC point and click adventure games, and thus got a pass.   Visual novels are dumb, because they're like the classic SCUMM engine games, without any of the good writing and puzzle solving. And even those PC adventure games aren't smash hits with the public.  There's just not enough there to attract the north american gamer's interest.  "

#30 Posted by Snipzor (3317 posts) -

There are stories in eroge? I'm shocked! Everyone I know *cough cough* usually don't pay attention to the stories.

#31 Edited by Bocam (3822 posts) -
@Aus_azn:  The reason why Fate/Stay Night hasn't been brought over is because the creators want a million dollars for it.  
@swoxx: The best way of finding a good VN to start out with is by going on /jp/ 
 
#32 Posted by ShadowMountain (226 posts) -
@KaosAngel:  Isn't the genre already available in the west? Mangagamer and Jlist?
I'm playing Higirushigi on my iphone atm as well.
#33 Posted by MikkaQ (10344 posts) -

Well am I wrong? The only visual novels that sell here come out on the DS and have way more gameplay than PC Eroge titles. This thread is about making them (eroge) popular. It just won't happen, your average NA gamer is used to constant action and shit blowing up all around them, an erotic PC game centered around talking everyone into your pants just doesn't hold their interest. 

#34 Posted by Bocam (3822 posts) -
@ShadowMountain:  If you like Higurashi you should try Umineko.
#35 Posted by Bocam (3822 posts) -
@XII_Sniper:  Play Sengoku Rance
#36 Edited by BaneFireLord (2957 posts) -

You wanna make it popular in America? Take the sex out, take the story out, add guns and a label reading "Call of Duty."
Also, the key phrase here is "some of the best Eroge games have X." So, what you're saying is that only a minuscule percentage of these games actually have anything (plot, character development, etc.) take place outside of sex, sex and more sex? Not that there's anything necessarily wrong with a twelve hour screwfest, but no one in America or Europe is going to pony up the 40 to 60 bucks for a hentai game when you can just watch porn legally and for free on the Internet.

#37 Posted by AndrewB (7689 posts) -

Screw Eroge and bring on visual novels. I want the Infinity series released in full English glory, without waiting for some awesome group of individuals to slowly translate them over a span of 4 years. If you want to talk about good stories that wouldn't work in any other medium, there's your gold standard. Ever17 (the only one that made it over here) is awesome, and also has some dating sim-like qualities. Remember11 is better and has nothing to do with the dating sim genre, instead just focusing on a fantastic, twist-filled story. There's romance and one suggestive scene, but I wouldn't count that.
 
But I have nothing wrong with plain old pornographic hentai games, both the hardcore and softcore kind. It's good every now and then.

#38 Posted by MikkaQ (10344 posts) -
@Bocam said:
" @XII_Sniper:  Play Sengoku Rance "
I would, but I have no interest in a sex game. It's just too normal, I go play games to race cars, and shoot shit, stuff people don't normally do. Sex is normal, and even if it's about the sexual fantasies, I'm too much of a vanilla sex kinda guy to care. 
 
Now if you were proposing a visual novel game with no pornographic sex (I don't mind movie style though), or stupid romance melodrama, I'd be all over it. And those games exist, and I've played them. They're great. But the eroge stuff is really B quality. 
#39 Posted by SomeJerk (3389 posts) -

Hahahah, I'm buying you a beer if you ever show up around my parts of Scandinavia KaosAngel, I like your style.

#40 Edited by Bocam (3822 posts) -
@XII_Sniper:  Sengoku Rance is basically a RTS also what do you mean by movie style?
#41 Posted by ShadowMountain (226 posts) -
@Bocam: Is that his newest work? Is it related to Higirushigi? I haven't finished it yet - still on the first chapter - I haven't even reached the Kai/answer parts yet so I can't really judge if I like the universe he has created so far. All thats happened thus far is a lot of talking and little plot development but I've only been playing a few mins a day before I go to bed.
 
I have played through most of the Fate/stay night 'FATE' arc though and looking forward to the other two since I watched the anime before so I'm retreading the story beats in the current arc.
 
So yeah I'm still new to the medium. Is there anything on jlist or mangagamer you recommend? Since they're not popular in the west they don't get reviewd much so its hard to find out whats good and whats not.
#42 Posted by themangalist (1747 posts) -
@KaosAngel:  I actually got a copy of Bible Black after you sir recommended it. To be frank, I don't quite see the appeal. There weren't many options as a game -- maybe because i wasn't hoping for a visual novel. The story isn't that compelling, and the fap seems to be there to mask how shallow it is. 
 
Also, Westerners aren't fond of the anime art style. This is a large enough reason for those games to never sell to the large Western audience.
#43 Posted by Bocam (3822 posts) -
@ShadowMountain:  Yes, Umineko is his latest work, it's also regarded as better then Higurashi in Japan (parts of it at least). The best things Mangagamer have right now are Kira Kira and Higurashi. On Jlist I would recommend "A drug that makes you dream" as it's written by  Romeo Tanaka. Fan-translated VNs that are worth a look are Cross Channel, Sharin no Kuni, The Devil on the G-string, and  Sekien no Inganock -What a Beautiful People- (Kaos would like this as it has a neko)
#44 Posted by MikkaQ (10344 posts) -
@Bocam said:
" @XII_Sniper:  Sengoku Rance is basically a RTS also what do you mean by movie style? "
By movie style sex vs. pornographic sex (and the lines can get blurry) I mean that pornographic sex tends to highlight the meat more often, and show all these erotic angles, and the sex scenes linger, because they're obviously expecting you to be furiously masturbating.  Movie sex is just that, sex like in movies. You see people humping, but it doesn't linger because we all know what sex looks iike, and once you establish that they're having sex, there's not a lot you can do with the rest of that scene. Hence why movie sex scenes tend to be short, but passionate, and never really explicit, breasts and buttocks at the most. Depending what movie you're watching of course!  
 
Also I googled the game before posting, and I saw a lot of buxom women and dudes in armor like any fantasy anime, and I read that it was Eroge, so I assume that's a part of it. If it's also a strategy game, that's cool, but I mean... I don't play a 25 hour round of Civilization V in order to get a little sex scene at the end, I do it to show Ghandi who's boss.  
 
Basically my problem with this genre is it feels like it's a weird means to an end. Like why just slap a pornographical sex scene on an otherwise normal game? Seems like unnecessary fan-service to me. Especially when it's anime sex, and you know they'll never manage to make that look classy. 
#45 Posted by I_smell (3925 posts) -
@KaosAngel said:
" We can get Heavy Rain with sex, but anime isn't good enough.  Maybe if Kojima or Nomura pushed one out as a PSN game it could work, hopefully one day.  >.>   "
Heavy Rain's sex scene wasn't even a sex scene. It was like 30 seconds of people getting undressed, then the plot just carried on.
These stupid manga games are mostly slideshows of hentai with freaky japanese girl noises in the background.
 
The whole point of them is the hentai slideshow in the middle, the characters are all like 14 yr old girls with huge tits, the voices are like 80% heavy breathing and the dialogue is literally just walls of generic Twilight filler text. 
There is no substance here, the people makin em don't give a shit, it's not art and it's not good.
 
I don't care if some Japanese forum talks about it a lot; because I'm pretty sure Justin Bieber is outselling all my favourite bands.
Crazy Frog was Christmas #1, I'm A Celebrity Get Me Out of Here has 10 million viewers, and Orgasm Girl 2 has more plays than Red Dead Redemption has sales.
Just because something's got millions of fans doesn't stop it from being complete shit.
 
People crankin out cheap weird sex shit to make money isn't something new. Films do it, books do it, games do it- the simple notion of "I can sell 2 million of these if I put boobs on the cover" is like marketting 101. The fact that you've fell head-over-heels in love with some artist dude's in-between job is crazy and you're delusional. I don't know if you have post-traumatic stress disorder or what, but this is not gonna kick off in the US because it's cheap, tacky, creepy and not cool.
#46 Posted by Bocam (3822 posts) -
@XII_Sniper:  Most of the sex scenes in Rance seem to be written tongue in cheek
#47 Posted by RYNO9881 (625 posts) -
@warxsnake said:
" Because all those characters look like they are 14yrs old max "
yup
#48 Posted by VisariLoyalist (3000 posts) -

Politicians and censors would shit bricks if it started to really catch on

#49 Posted by I_smell (3925 posts) -

There's a new feature in these games now that's just come up in the passed few years thanks to Adobe After Effects.
 
When you have a 2D portrait of someone talking Persona-style, they animate it really subtley to breathe up n down.
 
What I mean by that is that they expand the boobs on every image in and out, constantly, in the most creepy alien Dead-or-Alive way you've ever seen.

#50 Posted by Bocam (3822 posts) -
@I_smell:  It's not Persona-style, it's dating-sim style

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