So here is a question for everyone, and its come up a lot before but here goes.

Do you watch any E-sports that your not a fan of/don't play? How about Speed-runs of games you've never played/are no good at? And so on.

I know I do. I'm no good at fighting games/have never seriously played any of them, but enjoy watching a well-made one get played by skilled people. I'm no good at megaman, but watching someone else beat it (fast or slow) is fun. I'm only into Starcraft 2 for the story (ha ha) and never played multiplayer, but enjoyed watching others do so..

Moba's though? Nope, not in the slightest. Because..of all the reasons you think.

From my perspective, for someone who does not play say Dota2, take any one random match and you need to know before it begins..all 10 heros..all their powers..all the item builds they take, and why..the way those heroes should be played, in general and in the specific teams they are in..the way one hero counters another. The specific ins and outs of the map. The concepts central to the game "last hit, carrying, etc"

Its so in depth, so much 'have to know already' that its staggering it has such a following. Like, any other sport is easy to follow, even if you barely/don't know the rules. Get the ball from one side of the field to the other. Reduce one guys life bar to zero. Even a RTS is easy enough to follow "Oh hes building some dudes to go attack some other dudes". If you seen one, you can follow any of them. MOBAs though? Nope.

But that's just my take. Its why I ask. Does anyone feel different? Have you watched DOTA2 without every having read character wikis, build-guides, or launched and tried the game out yourself? Anyone? Anyone at all?

I don't watch any esports coverage. None of it interests me in the slightest. Me not caring about/not knowing much about the games being played might have something to do with it, since I used to sometimes watch SCGLive's coverage of MTG Legacy Opens, which I'm well acquainted with.

Although to be honest, I more take issue with the commentary and presentation of esports. All the flashy vfx and breathless commentary really bothers me. I remember one of my favourite bits of SCGLive was when the feature match was still going while the rest of the convention hall was pretty much empty, so the commentators had to whisper so the players wouldn't hear them from across the room. On top of that, I've never actually watched any of those matches because I cared about their outcome. I only ever watched them because it was interesting to see matchups that I don't normally get to see play out at FNM. I guess I don't care about competitions in general?

I've actually been meaning to write something about this for a while.

Edit: I don't watch speed runs at all either, though that's just simple disinterest.

I watched baseball once and had no fucking clue what was going on. The rules make no sense unless someone explains it to you. Yet that is a huge spectator sport. I think mobas scratch a similar itch but for less sportsinclined people.

Can't say either way how mobas look from that perspective, I know more about them than I should. But I imagine it's similar.

I don't play Dota 2 anymore (or rather I'll have to devote some time into it again so I can play competently) but I still like watching the matches taking place in The International. With that said, I had experience playing Dota so the stuff that is happening on screen makes sense to me. I played League of Legends very briefly and I can also watch and understand enough to know what's happening but I have no idea what the metagame is so I don't derive as much enjoyment out of watching them. Thus I don't watch LoL matches as much as I watch Dota 2. With that said, I don't actually follow the Dota 2 pro scene closely so I don't have a clue in terms of when players switched teams or which teams have won tournaments outside of The International.

Fighting games however I can just watch being played at a high level and still enjoy it, even with games I've never played. I mainly played Tekken in the past and I've never really got better at playing SF4 or Marvel 3 but I understand the meta of those games enough that when something really crazy happens, I can recognize the moment it happens. A lot of the basic fundamentals of fighting game do carry over to other games in one form or another. I do think that fighting games are easier to spectate in general since there aren't a lot of things happening on screen compared to Dota 2 or Legaue.

I do, sort of.

I've never played a single Dota2 match yet I watch every International and also Starladder from time to time, because the Ukrainian/Russian commentators are fantastic.

Personally I don't feel like MOBA's are all that hard to understand or get into on an entry level. Actually the ease with which you can start playing them on a very basic level is one of the several major items that made them popular in the first place over traditional RTS's, when brain dead smoked up 11 year olds in internet cafes all suddenly started playing the original Dota mod instead of your regular shooter fare, those were the first sings of the boom. Now their depth is a whole other thing, there is practically no ceiling.

There is much to know yes. But to start understanding what's going on there is relatively little imo. You kill things, you get gold and exp, you use your abilities and try to destroy the main enemy base. All the other information you just slowly layer on top of that over time. Last hits, denies, hero abilities, items, etc. No you don't need to know every item build for every hero, that's not only unnecessary to watching and understanding a match it's also pointless because professional teams have their own builds or preferences and adapt item purchases depending on match circumstance. All that hero combinations and counter stuff? That's fluid and it all simply surfaces out of the logic of the base hero abilities and items. If you just understand what most heroes and items do, the rest can be deduced by just logic. To put it into perspective, it's like learning math/physics, if one person understands the why and how the logic of the equations and the rules, learning is easy, if another person simply tries to memorize every single formula without knowing what they actually mean they will have a much harder time.

To be fair RTS was one of my 2 favorite genres so transitioning into understanding dota seemed simple enough, especially since I was around when the dota mod and it's many versions were only starting to get tinkered at as custom maps of the Warcraft 3 engine and a lot of conventions and base mechanics simply carried on from Warcraft 3 itself, like the agi/str/int stat system. But I haven't paid any attention to Dota2 (or any moba) until Brad started raving about the International 3 sometime ago and playing it on the site, decided to check out some tournament streams, found Starladder, stayed for the commentators. And that's when I started figuring out the more advanced stuff beyond the creep waves spawn, try to kill the ancient stuff. All it took is visiting the wiki from time to time between matches and reading up on the hero abilities as the drafts or pauses were happening, but only the the stuff that was relevant to the match, over time I slowly gained a general knowledge of what are the main significant hero signature abilities and what the important items do. By no means do I even remember all of it, but you don't have to to understand whats going on and enjoy watching the games. If I am ever unsure of a significance of something I'll just quickly hop over to the wiki to glance at it.

The whole "you have to know sooo much" idea is a bit overblown when it comes to mobas imo. If you want to take it seriously maybe you do yes. But just playing for fun or watching a stream or two, nah.

As another example my younger brother got into LoL all by himself with no prior knowledge of the game or it's basics just through his friends. Personally I don't like LoL, but watching a few streams with him and him telling me a couple basic concepts and the specifics of heroes was enough to get it, even tho he himself only has rudimantary knowledge. Likewise me telling him of a few key dota2 concepts was enough for him to watch the matches and understand whats going on. Earlier on this year I decided to check out Heroes of the Storm for funzies and that was extremely easy to pick up and start playing, playing randoms it even felt like I was one of the few people who even understood what was going on, even tho I haven't played a single moba match prior to that. Later on I just got bored of it, since the hero pool is so small and it all kind of became samey.

But yeah, never played Dota2, only looked up stuff like hero abilities and what items do on the wiki, that's it. Really enjoy watching the big games from time to time, just not regularly.

Yup

i watch dota, i've never played dota.

for me it stems from an rpg related interest in assembling a party and synchronizing skills. and having a pool of a hundred plus classes to choose from is drool inducing.

I watch some speedruns, but can't say I'm all that interested in seeing dozens of Super Metroid runs where they shave a few milliseconds off each time. I'm more interested in the one-off weird stuff like glitch runs of Harlequin for the Atari ST, where there's pretty much just one or at most two or three speedrunners in total doing that particular game, and doing it the quickest matters less than finding out all the weird things you can do with the game.

I find exactly three fighting games exciting to watch - Mugen, King of Fighters XIII and Smash Bros, and I only ever watch MOBA stuff when there it's the Daily DOTA, and that's not because I'm at all interested in what's happening on screen, but because I always enjoy listening to Brad's soothing voice.

I've watched all two weeks/week of matches of Dota for the International every year, and I've developed a decently complex understanding of Dota 2. I can't tell you exactly why certain things happen, I can't tell you the exact details of what items do what, but I understand the roles, the timings, the important abilites, etc...

I've played, according to Steam, 0.3 hours of Dota.

It's fun to watch, especially if you have friends who are also invested, and it's fun to get caught up in the competition. Ultimately, it's also the personal story-lines of the teams and players that help get me invested in the game. Just as I don't know the playbook for American football and couldn't tell you the different between a Dime and Nickel offense, I can still enjoy watching football every Sunday. This years TI was fucking fantastic because of the number of upsets and EG's great run. I don't think you need to know the nitty gritty details of Dota to love Sumail, Aui, Fear, Universe, and PPD. They all have really interesting stories and play "fun" Dota from a casual spectator view (compared to rat Dota).

I showed some of my non-interested friends the 10v10 Show-match during TI, and it's a good idea of the kind of contagious fun watching Dota has been for me. The Dendi reveal with Puppey was better than wrestling.

I have about 10 hours of Dota played in 5 years, and I watch as much of The International as my schedule allows. If you know the basics and are willing to do some basic wiki-browsing to add to your knowledge, it makes for great viewing.

I can watch StarCraft II matches, specifically episodes of When Cheese Fails by LAG TV. But for MOBAs and e-sports specifically: Tried LoL. Kinda liked playing it but it isn't my thing. Haven't touched it in over a year. I feel as though I would be really bored watching people play it, same for DotA and other MOBAs. And I can probably watch a few EVO matches, but only if I know the combatants.

I've watched league quite a bit because a friend of mine competes at local lans and I like to show him some support. I haven't really played a whole lot though, and I don't watch pro games at all. I think I left the game at like level 18 or 20ish. It's enjoyable enough as long as you can wrap your head around it. If you have no idea whats going on it might seem a bit boring or impenetrable.

If I feel like watching esports in my free time I usually just fallback on watching Starcraft 2 since I enjoy playing it more.

I've played a bunch of Dota 2 bot games (and League), but I don't play online matches. Yet I still watch a ton. Kinda the same with Starcraft, though I do occasionally hop on the ladder for the most part if I play it's just vs. AI. I think people can certainly enjoy those games without playing them, but at some point if you watch enough you will start to pick up the nuance and things like character skills and items. It can seem very impenetrable, but I think once you understand the very basics and have some idea of things to look for it can be fun to watch what's going on - part of the problem is that it's initially difficult to know what you're looking for.

In a fighting game, what's going on is very simple and obvious - each player is trying to hit the other and deplete their health bar. (I do love watching fighting games, but I also play them a fair bit, though more against friends than online.) Conversely, MOBAs have long periods where enemies refuse to fight each other despite being mere feet apart - which can be baffling to a new viewer (I remember this being a concern of mine when I first tried to learn what was going on in League). Then, when fights do break out it's often unclear what is going on - especially as commentators often throw out skill names and abbreviations like cheap candy.

(Self-plug: I recently made a video explaining everything I think people need to know to enjoy watching Dota 2 in ~10 minutes. The idea was to show it to some of my friends who were interested in the International but didn't actually know anything about the game. They found it pretty useful so if anyone here is interested I'd love to know whether you find it helpful.)

Your problem is the reason they run the newcomer stream every year at The International.

To answer your side question before I get back into the main one: I watch the occasional fighting game tournament and I actively dislike playing fighting games; the same went for StarCraft II and that style of RTS back when SC2 was still a thing.

Did you do this on purpose? Dime and Nickel are defenses! (They refer to the number of linebackers vs. defensive backs on the field. A normal 4-3 defense has 4 linemen, 3 linebackers, 2 cornerbacks, 2 safeties. When the offense subs out a fullback (or potentially a tight end who isn't a huge threat to catch the ball) for another wide receiver (for 3 receivers total), the defense counters with a Nickel package, where they replace a linebacker with a cornerback, because 95% of linebackers cannot keep up with a wide receiver. This leaves the defense with 4 linemen, 2 linebackers, 3 cornerbacks, 2 safeties. A Dime package is the same thing but with another cornerback instead of another linebacker, so 4 lineman, 1 linebacker, 4 cornerbacks, 2 safeties. These are not the only offensive situations where you would run those defensive packages, and there is sometimes more nuance than that depending on your defensive personnel and matchups, etc., but that's the basic gist of it.)

You've also hit on the reason I really enjoy introducing new people to Dota, though; it has as many intricacies and as much depth as something like football. You don't need to know why the offensive coordinator decided to run the ball between the guard and the tackle instead of between the guard and the center to enjoy watching football, just as you don't need to know why the mid Storm went Bloodstone first instead of Orchid. The casters will fill you in on why after you watch enough games just as an NFL commentator would, and there are a hell of a lot more resources out there for learning the basics of (as well as the advanced theorycrafting for) Dota than there are for football. It's even more fun when you know enough that you can start talking about laning decisions and hero or player positions (here's why they're running support Lina position 4 this game instead of mid position 2 vs. here's why they're running their tight end/running back split out as a wideout this play instead of on the line/in the backfield), or predict the next hero drafts and lanes like you would predict whether the next play is a run or a pass and what kind. There are a ton of parallels, but you get the idea. Dota is a fantastic spectator sport, and all you have to know to get started is 'they're trying to kill the other team and destroy the ancient,' just like football is 'they're trying to move the ball forward and score a touchdown.' Just watching the red vs. green health bars can be enough for a beginner until they learn what heroes and spells do, just as watching where the football goes can be enough for a beginner until they learn what a good offensive line looks like.

Great video!

I watched the international finals this year. Had no real idea what was happening, but it was kinda fun when Brad opened up the site's chat so I could watch it and talk with cool people. That's basically the same way I consume every sport that I don't normally follow. I don't follow hockey, but I'll watch the Stanley Cup because of the spectacle. I'd say the big difference is that Dota is a lot harder to follow if you don't know the context of why any of it is important. The other problem is all the jargon being thrown around. It's basically like watching soccer in a foreign language. I know when people are screaming, something important is happening, but I don't know exactly why. Yea, I can see the kills happening, but it's not enough because I know there's so much more depth that I'm not picking up on.

Honestly, the only game I followed the professional scene in was SC2, and boy, did I go deep down that rabbit hole.

I watch some of DOTA, SMITE, Heros of the Storm. I play League seriously, but during the off seasons or if no League is being shown I'll watch some of the other games. I have played all of them before, and would play all of them but DOTA if I had more time (DOTAs movement and hero design makes the game unplayable to me without devoting several hundred hours to relearning).

If I had to rank the Esports I like to watch:

1. League of Legends
2. CSGO
3. DOTA
4. SMITE/Heros
5. StarCraft 2

I feel like SMITE/Heros are lesser than the others at a higher level, especially Heros of the Storm considering some of the best players are just bad League players. No one plays SC2 that I used to watch before league took all my time away

I'd like to say that I did it on purpose, as I did write defense before erasing it and writing offense instead. I should have gone with something that I actually do know is for offense like Shotgun and I formations :<

I honestly think it's because of the fantasy trapping of Dota that stops people from viewing it like another complex spectator sport. But then again, I don't know how else they can visually represent the game besides that fantasy/Warcraft design. I guess it's a time thing, when a whole generation grows up being aware of LoL and Dota.

I feel like I've given MOBA's a fair shake and they just don't click with me. Maybe it's because I don't understand the rules? I don't know. I have a veryrudimentary understanding of the concept of MOBA's - you move a hero around a map, each with their own traits and abilities, your creep wave fights against their creep wave with the ultimate goal of killing opposing heroes and/or objectives like towers? You earn gold to buy expendable items? That the basic gist of it? I tried watching Brad play on the Smite QL, and after 15 minutes I was just like ugh, nope.

I watched Daily DOTA and I had no idea wtf was happening.

Starcraft, USFIV: awesome! All MOBAs: ZZZZZzzzz....

I really don't get MOBAs. I've tried. I've watched some "classic" matches. I just can't get excited about anything that happens. The outcome just always seems independent of everyone's actions, and obvious well in advance. I'm sure there's a lot of strategy in there that I don't understand.

Now, a good Street Fighter or Starcraft matchup, it's impossible to tell who's going to win, (and even then, a good old blowout is entertaining too) and when the person does win, it's entirely obvious why they did.

I play and watch smite. However, conquest is usually what is shown and as I don't have a team to coordinate to, I stick to arena.