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    EVE Online

    Game » consists of 3 releases. Released May 06, 2003

    EVE Online is a loosely structured science fiction MMORPG published by CCP Games in which players take on the role of a spaceship pilot exploring a colonized galaxy.

    Looking at EVE as an Outsider

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    ahoodedfigure

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    Edited By ahoodedfigure

     This one wasn't set to music
     This one wasn't set to music
    Being an EVE Online outsider I can only go by what people have told me. During the recent blowup I knew enough, I think, to understand the reactions of a lot of players, and I wasn't very surprised.
     
    I think some depictions of this event, by people who are trying to cover the gaming industry as a whole, miss that there was a long history of disenfranchisement with a good chunk of the player base. Whether or not the disgruntled were represented those who blasted an indestructible monument as depicted on the right, or who pledged to quit immediately or in the near future in the wake of leaked CCP internal messages, an outsider can't really say, but to me it seemed like the end result of a long build-up, rather than something spontaneous.
     
    What I've heard from many people is that EVE has exercised many changes to its core systems over the years in some areas, while wholly neglecting others, and in order to interest new people they've made moves, like Incarna, which not only took a step closer to having full virtual avatars for player characters, but also made moves expressly designed for improving the experience for the starting player, while different complaints from veterans aren't being addressed. 
     
    Many felt used. Crazy prices on virtual clothes (with talk of expanding these micropayments to fundamentally game-altering mechanics), suggestions that the architecture of EVE was used in part to test systems for other games, courting new players at the expense of lingering issues, all these things don't really sound that bad in isolation, but I think when you combine them in a community that, while diverse, has a lot of pride, the kind of pride you have in any group of hobbyists who feel that their particular pastime has a good degree of uniqueness and vitality, you get an explosion. The protests have been spectacular, but not surprising, especially since I feel that the tone and sluggishness of the response from CCP was probably what really caused all of these end results, not the silly monocles.
     
    EVE's style of play is definitely different, in a large part because it is so player driven, with major organizations being built by player agreement, and rising and falling based on mechanics supported through these agreements. The players pledging to quit reminded me of this, strangely enough. While some people might just blast that statue, others knew if they were going to strike at the heart of the new threat they were going to have to give up on their game. Maybe some will come back, maybe some never really were going to leave, and I'm betting some will decide to slip quietly away rather than post it in the forums, but:

    In the leaked email that was often quoted, it was said that they should pay more attention to what players did than what players said. So, after having said so much, they did, instead.
     
    If there's a better way to listen to so many players, I'm not sure what that might be. Not just paying attention to player actions, but something that takes into account some level of player decision and planning rather than reaction and clicks. Direct democracy, with a prioritization of requests based on popularity, might work, rather than posting and hoping to be heard, or waiting for sanctioned representatives to express their desires-- though without an open ballot, which is hard to collate, I wonder what sort of strange entanglements that might cause without a huge internal architecture to aggregate player wishes into something resembling a plan.  This blog, I think, is probably going to run into the same problem. I could depict these events in a way approaching coherence, but does it speak for every EVE player? Even a majority? Not likely.
     
    It's impossible to escape the reality that this is a game, that these are paying members of that game, and that many are pissed (and I expect a backlash from players who want to work through it and keep playing, and still others who will just try to ignore the whole thing), yet as an outsider I can't help but look at this struggle as something much more fascinating than the practical part of my brain tells me it has any right to be. The more romantic side of me sees this as a glimpse at something larger that human beings are capable of in this environment of world-wide, instant connections. Or maybe these struggles are a hi-res, virtual mask covering the face of a very, very old conflict.
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    ahoodedfigure

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    #1  Edited By ahoodedfigure

     This one wasn't set to music
     This one wasn't set to music
    Being an EVE Online outsider I can only go by what people have told me. During the recent blowup I knew enough, I think, to understand the reactions of a lot of players, and I wasn't very surprised.
     
    I think some depictions of this event, by people who are trying to cover the gaming industry as a whole, miss that there was a long history of disenfranchisement with a good chunk of the player base. Whether or not the disgruntled were represented those who blasted an indestructible monument as depicted on the right, or who pledged to quit immediately or in the near future in the wake of leaked CCP internal messages, an outsider can't really say, but to me it seemed like the end result of a long build-up, rather than something spontaneous.
     
    What I've heard from many people is that EVE has exercised many changes to its core systems over the years in some areas, while wholly neglecting others, and in order to interest new people they've made moves, like Incarna, which not only took a step closer to having full virtual avatars for player characters, but also made moves expressly designed for improving the experience for the starting player, while different complaints from veterans aren't being addressed. 
     
    Many felt used. Crazy prices on virtual clothes (with talk of expanding these micropayments to fundamentally game-altering mechanics), suggestions that the architecture of EVE was used in part to test systems for other games, courting new players at the expense of lingering issues, all these things don't really sound that bad in isolation, but I think when you combine them in a community that, while diverse, has a lot of pride, the kind of pride you have in any group of hobbyists who feel that their particular pastime has a good degree of uniqueness and vitality, you get an explosion. The protests have been spectacular, but not surprising, especially since I feel that the tone and sluggishness of the response from CCP was probably what really caused all of these end results, not the silly monocles.
     
    EVE's style of play is definitely different, in a large part because it is so player driven, with major organizations being built by player agreement, and rising and falling based on mechanics supported through these agreements. The players pledging to quit reminded me of this, strangely enough. While some people might just blast that statue, others knew if they were going to strike at the heart of the new threat they were going to have to give up on their game. Maybe some will come back, maybe some never really were going to leave, and I'm betting some will decide to slip quietly away rather than post it in the forums, but:

    In the leaked email that was often quoted, it was said that they should pay more attention to what players did than what players said. So, after having said so much, they did, instead.
     
    If there's a better way to listen to so many players, I'm not sure what that might be. Not just paying attention to player actions, but something that takes into account some level of player decision and planning rather than reaction and clicks. Direct democracy, with a prioritization of requests based on popularity, might work, rather than posting and hoping to be heard, or waiting for sanctioned representatives to express their desires-- though without an open ballot, which is hard to collate, I wonder what sort of strange entanglements that might cause without a huge internal architecture to aggregate player wishes into something resembling a plan.  This blog, I think, is probably going to run into the same problem. I could depict these events in a way approaching coherence, but does it speak for every EVE player? Even a majority? Not likely.
     
    It's impossible to escape the reality that this is a game, that these are paying members of that game, and that many are pissed (and I expect a backlash from players who want to work through it and keep playing, and still others who will just try to ignore the whole thing), yet as an outsider I can't help but look at this struggle as something much more fascinating than the practical part of my brain tells me it has any right to be. The more romantic side of me sees this as a glimpse at something larger that human beings are capable of in this environment of world-wide, instant connections. Or maybe these struggles are a hi-res, virtual mask covering the face of a very, very old conflict.
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    mikemcn

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    #2  Edited By mikemcn

    CCP should feel very lucky that they have a community at all. EVE is not an easy game to get into, and those who do actively play have been paying for the game for years, and have sunk thousands of hours into that universe. CCP cannot use the same tactics other companies have used. Microtransactions, which work for other long running games such as TF2, will not work in Eve without alienating a ton of very dedicated players. People got pissed off over the existence of DUST 514, they didn't like that CCP was dedicating part of it's staff to building up DUST rather than Eve, I was kinda annoyed at it too. DUST 514 is not going to have nearly the same following as Eve has.

    From what i've heard they aren't offering any game changing items for sale, ever, the internal memo that discussed it was just people bouncing ideas around. I hope thats true. I don't think direct democracy would work in Eve because the players are all too different, every vote would carry a huge meaning to a significant percentage of the players. People spend thousands of hours not doing the same things as someone else, to change how, say, PVP worked, would alienate all the pirates, faction members and war oriented corps, while the miners, traders, haulers and explorers would all be untouched.

    And stop being an outsider, theres a 21 day trial floating around I think still, try it out duder.

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    ahoodedfigure

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    #3  Edited By ahoodedfigure
    @Mikemcn: I've noticed that investment is often referred to in time rather than money. You have a character training even when you're offline, so you get something back for your subscription fee even if you're not playing every second of every day. Yet, it really is money, and when talking about MMOs in general I tend to convert things into dollars or whatever. So someone says they've been paying for years, I do the mental calculations.  ANY game that got that much money from me would make me understandably wary of fundamentally changing the experience I'd grown to love, or wary of reluctance to change what was broken. I guess I find that I'm a bit afraid to make that sort of commitment of money, time, and faith in these being an investment that will improve the game over time. So the greed stuff...  would make me feel violated.
     
    As a game design element, I imagine DUST as being a cool intersection between the two worlds, but I've yet to see anyone actually talk about how such worlds COULD intersect, since micropayment games seem to attract different crowds than subscription games. I have some experience in this, having played Puzzle Pirates for a while, which had one place that was limited without subscription and full with, and another that had a fuller free experience with micropayment enhancements. You do seem to build a community with subscriptions because the players have more invested. They're more willing to produce an environment that fits the tone, even if they're working against the grain. The more involved a game is, the less micropayments seem to create a cohesive environment. Yet, if the game ISN'T terribly involved, like with browser games or whatever, the micropayment crowd seems to be more friendly, especially if the basic game without micropayments is good. I guess with these bigger games going micro, at least partially, we'll see if that attitude changes at all. 
     
    The memo seemed to be bouncing ideas, yeah. It would probably be less disconcerting if they never even talked about it, but I think a company has a right to experiment internally with ideas, since good ideas are often born from freedom of expression without fear of reprisals, even if what comes out as the end result doesn't resemble the discussions much at all.
     
    What do you think about the PvE criticisms, that more PvE missions could be introduced to satisfy those who prefer it, more diversity could be added to mining to make it more interesting, that sort of thing? That to me seems like it wouldn't harm those with other interests so much, so it wouldn't have as strong an impact as changing PvP balance would.

    Does the free trial come with a new computer? If so, I'm in. ;)
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    mikemcn

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    #4  Edited By mikemcn

    @ahoodedfigure: Pve could use some changes, just for the sake of making the more interesting, most are just, go here, kill this, fly back home, which can be annoying, but they're not a major issue. Miners are all crazy (I was a miner), messing with that aspect would be bad mojo. Its eventful enough as is with the random NPC pirate encounters, can theft and the Hulkaggedeon event every year where thousands of mining ships are killed by player pirate gangs. Miners spend hundreds of hours, and often use multiple accounts just clicking on rocks and transporting minerals. If one the bigger mining corps presented an idea, im sure most other miners would be ok with it, but the idea has to come from the miners themselves.

    And no, the trial doesn't come with a free computer, but you still need to find a way to try it, its a neat game.

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    ahoodedfigure

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    #5  Edited By ahoodedfigure
    @Mikemcn: If I get a good machine, I intend to play it. I especially like how freeform the structure is. Even if that invites all kinds of ugliness, it also has some pretty cool potential, the kind we see every once in a while in the industry headlines.
     
    You mention that a major mining group might be able to collect/sway opinion, and that makes me wonder if major factions should maybe get a better chance to actually affect the growth of the game. Or would that be giving them too much power?
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    mikemcn

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    #6  Edited By mikemcn

    @ahoodedfigure: theres no real huge, purely mining, corps, but there are some decent size ones and the higher ups in those corps often have friends in the CSM, or in the really big corps that do a little bit of everything. So smaller mining corps could at least get the ball rolling fairly easily if change was needed I think. Major factions (Corps is more accurate, factions are a separate mechanic.) already can control sections of space, the supply of goods, amongst other things. They have plenty of ingame power. Whether or not the CSM is influenced by them is harder to say, but I imagine it's in the interests of the council members to play to the wants of the larger corps.

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    ahoodedfigure

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    #7  Edited By ahoodedfigure
    @Mikemcn: I guess I should read up on the CSM before asking any more questions; I appreciate all this information. 
     
    Funny how much easier this is to research than, say, actual political structures. Maybe it's because I know that no matter how complicated a game gets, it's still relatively straightforward in that everyone can drop it and never look back, and the world as we know it won't collapse.
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    Da_Madness

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    #8  Edited By Da_Madness
    @ahoodedfigure:  It's great to have an outsiders perspective on this greatly indeapth game. I have been a player since January 2006 and EVE has had some great changes over the years as had my playing experience.
     
    My experiences have started from myself playing with 3 friends mining in a small low sec area of space to being part of the the biggest alliance in Eve participating in fleet battles with 3000 players making Eve history. This game has the highest victorys and the lowest defeats, which is why I love this game.
     
    I can greatly understand the player base being annoyed with CCP as there have been a number of previous issues which has been viewed as not being rectified. This includes a Game Master spawning rare and high powered ships in game and giving them to friends and a high powered in game corporation braging about having direct access to up coming market information due to friendships with game developers. The latter was outed by a hacker who hacked the corporations board and was in turn banned from the game while he did not actually break any in game rules. The Corporation and dev, as far as I know, was not disiplined. 
     
    Personnally, even with the crap that has gone on, I still love this game. I love having a super expensive ship and taking it through space having my heart beat so hard.
     
    You see in this game you don't respawn in some grave yard when you die, you actually lose your ship and implants that you may have just spent weeks of your life mining for.
     
    one thing to always remember is that Eve can be as simple or as complicated as you want it. If you want to shoot things then thats easy, you can also learn how to buy and sell items for a profit which is also easy. If you choose you are also able to learn how to mine. then turn the minerals into items, then the items into other items and then build ships/guns/whatever and sell, or how to research for the blueprints, how to mine moons, how to take over that guys outpost in space....Then  things can get quite deep. It is really upto you on how difficult or easy your experience is.
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    #9  Edited By Crash_Happy

    I think one of the big things that EvE has over other MMO's is that free-formness that @Da_Madness has touched on.

    Any other MMO I can thing of has these big open worlds, and then funnels you along a path within that world. EvE really is a big open world and rather than having an obvious set of rails you're following (your archetype or class) you decide what you think you'll try doing, and go give it a try. No one else seems brave enough to try anything vaguely similar.

    I would actually like to see CCP support even more types of career. I'm out of touch but last I heard being a Bounty Hunter wasn't viable for instance. I see here a real opportunity for a set of skills related to tracking, killing or even capturing and handing over to CONCORD maybe?

    Even more than that though, I'd like them to realise what they have and that game-effecting MT, would be poison to this.

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    #10  Edited By ahoodedfigure
    @Crash_Happy: I think the bounty hunter system for Star Wars Galaxies, as I understood it, actually had that sort of dynamicism, something CCP could expand upon if they wanted to. Right now I guess you can report on someone who attacked you, and your organization can help you get revenge; and I guess if you're blasted in high security space your attacker is likely to get fried eventually. I read somewhere that CCP was considering making sector policing a player-character job, which I guess would be similar to bounty hunting in that these people would see what was going on from the police's perspective and be able to hunt after offenders based on that. Would add a dimension for those who wanted to do it, perhaps. 
     
    One thing EVE players don't have to worry about is the sort of criminal justice squishing the common man/catching the criminal thing. I doubt EVE would ever have a situation where your account was suspended or revoked for doing what is allowed in-game, yet in real life, [some] people are executed or permanently imprisoned for being a consistent menace. You would think that even in a transhumanist society, those who controlled these human copying technologies would also want to make sure that abusers of the privilege might get removed from the picture through legal or extra-legal means.
     
    All that said, when you connected to the NPC police, imagining policing being put into the hands of human beings who don't have this sort of permadeath consequence hanging over their head might open up so many possibilities for corruption that EVE could become even more different than it would be with bounty hunter-style enforcement. I guess what I'm getting at is: What would EVE be like without CONCORD at all?
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    #11  Edited By ahoodedfigure
    @Da_Madness: I've heard a lot about the game's free-form nature before, but that was a good summary of all the different points I've heard over the years.
     
    I had heard about the gifting of ships and the corruption behind a major group, but not the hacking thing you mention. Do you have a link to a decent article describing that, or a name that event is usually referenced by? 
     
    Even though the corruption is bad and should be stopped, it's still fascinating to me, again as an outsider with nothing to lose. 
     
    And I look at the role that the CSM plays, which is interesting in that doesn't really have any direct analogy politically. A provisional colonial government imposes its rulers on the populace, while the CSM is directly elected. A representative democracy might question the conclave clauses in the CSM contract as being indirectly coercive, but even in this age of Skype people don't seem to care that the CSM flies to Reykjavik as a standard part of their term of office. Yet when they are adamant enough about issues a sufficient number of people care about, they can earn some respect from some circles, at least. 
     
    There is this beautiful and terrifying anarchy to the big picture that's hard to ignore.
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    #12  Edited By Da_Madness
    @ahoodedfigure: The hacking incident is commonly known as 'The T20 incident' named after the dev which caused all of the issues. This happened way back in 2007.
     
    A summary of events I have found:
    CCP has/had a program where developers run unaffiliated alts playing through the game like a normal person would, ostensibly to get a "man on the street" viewpoint. t20's man on the street worked his way up, eventually becoming a director and head of the capital fleet in the Band of Brothers alliance. Breaking the neutrality clause the program runs upon, he revealed his identity as a CCP employee to BoB high command. Of course, this lead to nothing but trouble - he spawned T2 BPOs, at that time massively rare and expensive, and fed them information on upcoming gameplay changes, known exploits, events and so on. Everyone who wasn't in the very upper echelons of BoB directorship was unaware of this.

    Enter Anthonyz, commonly known as Kugutsumen, an EVE player who happened to be an experienced hacker. Lotka Volterra director Lallente took advantage of this, hiring him to crack into our directors-only forum for a Wyvern mothership. When Lallente stiffed him on the deal he promptly went fuck LV and decided to work for their enemies (us, although we never actually hired him to do work). He stumbled on the goldmine - the smoking gun of t20's involvement in aiding the Band of Brothers alliance, posting it on the official forums. His five accounts were banned, all threads distributing this information was deleted and CCP refused to acknowledge this entire event occurred. One threadnought, a Washington Post article and a wave of cancellations later: http://myeve.eve-online.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=424

    As it stands today: t20 was ostracized and CCP forced him to leave BoB, but CCP refused to fire him from the company. BoB is still called Band of Developers, Dianabolic is still bragging about having CCP on MSN and we still fucking hate BoB for this. T20 eventually left CCP to pursue other opportunities and BoB have now disbanded.
     
     
    Also a link to Kugutsumen's take on what happened and why he was bannd is on his forum HERE
     

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    ahoodedfigure

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    #13  Edited By ahoodedfigure
    @Da_Madness: Thanks for that bit of research! I may have heard of the corruption itself, but NOT how it was found out, which isn't surprising since they sorta swept away the detective there. 
     
    I mean, I call it corruption, but perhaps that's a bit strong a word. Whatever you want to call it, when paying players get advantages over others it's pretty clear it's detrimental to the experience, especially when a dominant corp is on the receiving end of GM advantages. Maybe it's an appropriate word.
     
    Anyway, what's remarkable is that people stick with the game after stuff like this. I can imagine this happening with other games and people just abandoning the game en masse. Says something for how people are by and large willing to take abuse from something they love. Not sure if that's a good thing or not :)
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    #14  Edited By Crash_Happy

    @ahoodedfigure: CSM is probably closest to a Steering Group or QUANGO. No real power but not listening to them is potentialy very silly.

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    Da_Madness

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    #15  Edited By Da_Madness
    @ahoodedfigure: For alot of people, it didn't really effect them but for those in 0.0 space and in the war against some coprorations it was a massive blow. I believe that after this event the CSM was created where players were supposed to have much more input into the game.
     
    It's changed quite a bit now as CCP has learnt much from it's mistakes, or at least I hope they have. 
     
    I suppose in the end if an artist is a dickhead doesn't mean that she/he haven't created great art.
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    ahoodedfigure

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    #16  Edited By ahoodedfigure
    @Crash_Happy: Hey, thanks for those! Learning more every day. Didn't even know those specific terms existed :)
     
    @Da_Madness: "I suppose in the end if an artist is a dickhead doesn't mean that she/he haven't created great art. "
     
    I tend to agree with that sentiment. It's up to the individual consuming the art to decide if the art's too tainted by the artist's reputation, I believe. This is especially important when the artist's reputation is unjustly tarnished by something that eventually turns out to be false, but it also protects the ongoing conversation that I think art is: that the conversation isn't stopped because the artist connected to the art was a jerk.
     
    It's not a precise comparison because if CCP goes, so does this game, which needs constant maintenance and can't act independently like solo games or locally networked games can. Art generally can survive the artist. Even performance art can be recorded, although it loses something that way.
     
    So, in a weird way, whatever CCP does is actually part of the game, since their behavior can, even if they don't have corruption, directly affect the gaming experience for everyone, even if no game mechanics are altered. 
     
    I totally get what you're saying, though. CCP, whatever people think of them, has created something that people consider almost separate from CCP. The angrier ones are  willing to defend the game, and the community, from the very company that created it.

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