why all the hate on FFXIII

Posted by jlanzer (49 posts) -

After completing final fantasy 13 I found it very awesome and a unique rpg experience.  For all those people out there that complain about how slow paced rpg's can be this game addresses that issue.  I never felt rushed when playing an rpg other than dragon quarter where you had a time limit.  When playing I needed to either run toward something or away from something for the first 25 hours which made it feel more real.  I know I've played a game where I'm a fugitive in a city, but for some reason I can still walk around freely without persecution.  Even though it "streamlined", aka took out half of the previous elements in its games, it made for a better story driven experience that allows one to further understand the characters and what drives them.

#1 Posted by jlanzer (49 posts) -

After completing final fantasy 13 I found it very awesome and a unique rpg experience.  For all those people out there that complain about how slow paced rpg's can be this game addresses that issue.  I never felt rushed when playing an rpg other than dragon quarter where you had a time limit.  When playing I needed to either run toward something or away from something for the first 25 hours which made it feel more real.  I know I've played a game where I'm a fugitive in a city, but for some reason I can still walk around freely without persecution.  Even though it "streamlined", aka took out half of the previous elements in its games, it made for a better story driven experience that allows one to further understand the characters and what drives them.

#2 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -

Because it took out the illusion that all other FF games have that the game isn't linear. That's about all I can think of. Other then that everything is about the same as every other FF game. But with a better battle system.

#3 Posted by Kombat (2205 posts) -

I'm enjoying it.  Sometimes it really starts to wear thin on my patience, but other than that it's a lot of fun.  Those random instances during which Lightning gets one-shot by some out-f-the-blue bullshit attack are incredibly frustrating though.

#4 Posted by ricetopher (1046 posts) -

Because Final Fantasy fans are never happy. The fact that people probably over hyped this game due to its long ass development time didn't help either.

Also the people that like it but know its flaws seem be outnumbered by fanboys and haters/trolls. Hell, this thread could turn into a shit storm.

And of course, opinions. People must remember that people have different opinions, and some assert theirs as fact.

#5 Posted by PufferFiz (1379 posts) -

Why I Don't like is , it takes what I like about FF away. I don't want them to try and re invent the wheel. I just wanted an updated classic. Unfortunately they didn't deliver.

#6 Edited by clubsandwich (3795 posts) -

I think it's an amazing game, I never played a FF game nor a RPG so I wasn't sure if I would enjoy it. I'm very glad I bought it, the graphics look beautiful and the game is beautiful as well. (i have only played 10 hours but I can tell that it has some beautiful moments :P )

#7 Posted by Marz (5655 posts) -

if chapter 1-10 were more like 11 then this would have been an amazing game, the slow burn kinda irritated me.

#8 Edited by jlanzer (49 posts) -
@PufferFiz:  If it was an updated classic people would be bored with it and it wouldn't bring in new people to the genre like clubsanwich here.  There are plenty of "classic" rpg's out there, but to take the risk and develop something completely different than the norm I think XIII pulled it off.
#9 Posted by Lambert (404 posts) -

It is a horrible game! Horrible designed, horrible story, horrible characters, etc...
 
You expect people to NOT hate shitty games?
 
If it didn't have Final Fantasy in the title, it would be panned by all the critics (more so than it already is).
 
They spent 99% of their budget and time on the character costumes and graphics and if they didn't, than it would make the game even more pathetic.

#10 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -
@Lambert said:
" It is a horrible game! Horrible designed, horrible story, horrible characters, etc...  You expect people to NOT hate shitty games?  If it didn't have Final Fantasy in the title, it would be panned by all the critics (more so than it already is).  They spent 99% of their budget and time on the character costumes and graphics and if they didn't, than it would make the game even more pathetic. "
Fail.
 
It is not horribly designed. It does not have a horrible story, and the characters are not horrible except for 1 or 2. It's not a shitty game, you just don't like it.
#11 Posted by ricetopher (1046 posts) -
@CL60: You do know Lambert is basically Giant Bomb's residential FF13 troll right? Don't bother with him.
#12 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -
@ricetopher said:
" @CL60: You do know Lambert is basically Giant Bomb's residential FF13 troll right? Don't bother with him. "
I've never seen him, but I figured as much.
#13 Posted by ricetopher (1046 posts) -
@CL60: Oh, but yeah, as someone who's spent some time on the FF13 boards here, its common for him to roll into every topic and leave his mark of douchebaggery
#14 Posted by pwnasaurus (1286 posts) -

because its everything i hate about everything in one game.
#15 Posted by Sanj (2404 posts) -

Most people's expectations were too high. Mine were at a decent level, and I thoroughly enjoyed it.
Online
#16 Edited by FateOfNever (1843 posts) -

There are several problems that occur when you streamline an rpg the way that FF13 was streamlined.  Part of the problem is it creates an incredible sense of linearity.  
 
Now, linearity itself is not inherently bad, most games that people play are, in fact, linear after all.  However, you can't say that as a result of this, the degree of linearity doesn't effect enjoyment of a game.  For example, if you take a fps game with linear progression and story and streamlined it down to only the important bits, you would end up with a rail shooter.  Rail shooters, however, are inherently disliked by a majority of the gaming population.  What matters to people is the illusion of freedom in a game.  If you give the illusion of freedom, you thereby also give the ability to search and to find hidden treasures as a result, and if there is one rule that should be known by most, it's that finding treasure, no matter how lousy, is better than no treasure at all.
 
Another problem related to the linearity of the 'level' design in the settings of FF13 is that it destroys a sense of immersion.  A good example of this is the mechanical forest that you have to trek through with Lightning and Hope.  It looks pretty, sure, and it still has a distinct atmosphere to it.  However, in the datalog for the forest, it talks about how the place was specifically designed to be complex and confusing to make it difficult for intruders to get through.  Lightning herself even tells you to - "Follow the beacons of light so that we don't get lost."  When I first heard her say that, my reaction was simply "Oh, no, really?  You think the straight line path is too confusing for me to figure out?  Maybe you should lead the way then."  If you describe a place as one thing, and go through it in the exact opposite way, that is poor design on one end or the other.  Now, in truth, this doesn't pop up nearly that often in the game, but the fact that it happens at all is bad.  
 
From there we go to how streamlining this game effects the pacing of the game.  At least in the early parts of this game, in the 1-30 hour or so mark, the pacing in the game is dreadful.  As a result of the streamlining, and Square Enix claiming to have problems creating towns for this generation of consoles, you get almost no down time.  Now, I do understand that in this game it is in fact explained by the fact that you are - 'on the run'.  While it does give a good sense of just how the people of Cocoon view the L'cie, at the same time it gives an awful sense of pacing.  The only real saving grace of this downside is that the combat in the game is truly well done.  If it had been less enjoyable for any reason, the fact that you get no down time would be devastating to the game.  Thankfully, however, that's not the case.  Even still though, this was the first rpg in some time that I just could not get myself to sit down and play for incredibly long stretches of time.  Due to always being on the run, you are in turn almost always fighting, and when all you really want to see is more story, more setting, more world, that's a hindrance on enjoyable for some people.  Not to mention that for the first twenty hours or so the game seemed to delight in showing you something cool, only to have it taken way; such as Snow and his eidolon in the beginning, or getting Lightning's eidolon, getting to have it for a bit, and then forcing you to play as Hope so you couldn't use it, or giving you characters with eidolons only to force you to play as a team that had none, as well as leaving constant cliffhangers whenever they felt like changing who the focus for the time being was going to be.  That all isn't nearly so bad as to destroy the pacing, however, though it certainly doesn't do anything to help it either.
 
Finally, I think we come to the last problem that comes from streamlining the rpg so much.  This problem is again one of immersion, though it has more to do with feel and storytelling than with actual conflict in game elements.  The problem that I speak of is the towns and the datalog.  Now, yes, as I have said before, I understand that always being on the run does mean that you can't just go and chill in a city and act like nothing's happening - even though they do manage to do it with Sazh and Vanille at the theme park.  The problem, however, is that you may learn of a town through what little downtime you get in dialogue, only to never get to actually see this town yourself.  Instead, if you wish to learn anything about this town, you are forced to check out the datalog.  The problem with a system like this, is that when you aren't simply giving people back story, or history, or elements that you just simply can't show, then it works.  When you use a system such as this though to only tell people about something that you could instead be showing them, it becomes a problem.  It's the same as if a character never acted the way he felt, but instead just told you how he felt every time he's on screen; it's a bad design from a story telling standpoint, and something that this game could have benefited from just not having.  If you want people to know particular information about something that is in the now, then show it to them when ever possible, don't make them read it.  This applies to much of the information that they give you in the datalog.  Well, that and the redundancy of many of the entries in the datalog, but that has less to do with streamlining and isn't at all detrimental to the game really, just something that could have been executed slightly better.
 
Overall though, I do think the game may get a bit more hate than it deserves.  Much of what the game did were things that they were sort of trying for the first time, including attempting to tell a story in a fairly different manner than they are used to due to the streamlining.  I don't think, however, that one should look upon the game and gloss over its shortcomings just because the things that it does get right are done amazingly well.  That's not to say that you can't enjoy its shortcomings either though,  it is however important to recognize what those shortcomings may be for the general population that may play this game as a whole. 
 
edit: TLDR - People don't like linearity on the level of rail shooters, and people enjoy to be shown rather than told, but that doesn't make FF13 a bad game either, it just means that people are bound to be more critical of the areas that show off these flaws potentially more than normal.

#17 Posted by ClownDetective (142 posts) -
@FateOfNever: Most of your points - and most of the points against this game - are more because of the expectations and preconceptions of rpgs fans than because they would actually make the game better.  
 
Towns WOULD NOT make this game better - all they would do is ruin the constant sense of momentum and progression the game has.    
#18 Edited by ZenaxPure (2569 posts) -

Two biggest reasons people "hate" it:  

  • It's not a rehash of an 11+ year old SNES/PS1 game
  • People hate popular brands. The same reason people "hate" Halo, Modern Warfare, or World of Warcraft.
 
 
Also, holy shit. Dear OP you might be one of the first people on this board to comment on the "linearity" and actually understand the simple concept of why you are always on the run. Seriously after reading so many comments on this board about the game I was almost convinced people seem to think if they were trapped in a world with martial law as fugitives they would be able to freely roam wherever they wanted without any worry, it hurts my brain honestly.
#19 Edited by Meowayne (6084 posts) -
@Zenaxzd said:

" Two biggest reasons people "hate" it:  

  • It's not a rehash of an 11+ year old SNES/PS1 game
  • People hate popular brands. The same reason people "hate" Halo, Modern Warfare, or World of Warcraft.
 
Nonsense. It takes a lot more ignorance and fanboyism to completele shut your eyes and ears to the obvious faults - or, to be diplomatic, missed opportunities - of Final Fantasy XIII.
 
Is it a bad game? No. Do many people enjoy it? Yes! Is it fair to call everyone who did not enjoy it a bandwagon idiot? No. Definitely not.   

  • Final Fantasy XIII is melodramatic and cheesy, the characters act like hyperactive emotionally unstable idiots and the writing is very obnoxious. Fact. Many people like it that way, many people don't, but it is in every way a valid complaint to make. A complaint that is in no way connected to whether or not other games of the series were the same.

  • Final Fantasy XIII treats the player like an idiot and assumes the dumbest, slowest possible player in its pacing and staging. Fact.  Again, there is a number of people who feel insulted and bored and a number of people who have absolutely no objection to it. But it is still a valid complaint. 

  • Final Fantasy XIII is highly non-interactive. Fact.  The player input is limited to triggering the next battle or cutscene by walking forward. Past JRPGs and other games where this is commonplace - FPS games for example - still usually go on length to regularly involve the player in other activities, conversations, exploration, problem solving, playing, collecting or orientation. This is not a question of corridors or a lack of decisionmaking - it is a question of variety, interactivity and originality. Final Fantasy XIII is a quality Anime and a quality Dungeoncrawler. For people to expect something more involving and more interesting to connect and intertwine the two is a valid complaint.

  • Final Fantasy XIII was deliberately designed to increasingly reduce the abovementioned "annoyances" over a span of 30 hours. People feel alienated and irritated by this decision, which is a valid position.
 
Many people enjoy watching the movie Final Fantasy XIII while playing out the numerous enemy encounters in the excellent battle system. Other feel cheated out of what is supposed to be an involving, interactively told story, yet might still find enjoyment in the high production value and battles.
 
To suggest that the only reasons one could not praise Final Fantasy XIII is being too "oldschool", clinging to Squaresofts games, or enjoying to hate on something just because its popular is moronic and spiteful.
#20 Edited by Meowayne (6084 posts) -

And this has nothing to do with towns, overworld maps, or branching paths. The decision to make this a road movie, to always be on the run from one location to another, is a brilliant one. It does not, however, excuse boring game and mission design.
 
 
Edit: I forgot the most important point:
 

  • Final Fantasy XIII is full of excellent decisions. Little things like complete heal after every battle, the paradigm system, the database, doing away with actually pushing a button to hear people's conversations, having your party members comment on the environment in real-time, the graphics, the level design (visually), and so on and so forth. Because of these things, the things that some do miss are missed more dearly, and cut more deeply. Final Fantasy XIII is a "Oh god, what if they didn't...." "What if they did...." game, and this can turn disappointment to anger.
#21 Posted by ZenaxPure (2569 posts) -
@Meowayne: I am not even going to bother wasting my time to make a proper response to that but minus the game being non-interactive (which is still debatable depending on exactly what you're referring to) all your "facts" are all just a matter of opinion. An opinion I could really care less about in all honesty, but I've mentioned that in past threads so yeah.
#22 Edited by FateOfNever (1843 posts) -
@ClownDetective:  I'm not saying that towns would in fact make the game better.  What I am saying is that traditionally towns created a sense of environment for the players.  For example; we get told over and over again in the game that the people of Cocoon hate Pulse L'cie.  This point, however, isn't shown in any way other than through the military until you finally reach a town that has an actual population in it.  
 
That's not to say that they do a bad job of stressing how much Cocoon fears Pulse L'cie, they do give some great examples of the lengths that the military is willing to go to destroy them.  What it does do, however, is it detaches you from the idea that many of the characters are in fact Cocoon residents themselves.  It's not until Hope has the run in with the girl and the mob that you actually truly see what the population as a whole is like.  That's disconnecting from a narrative point of view; the fact that you have to wait fifteen or so hours just to finally get a truly emotional moment with the citizens of Cocoon makes you feel distanced from just how serious the whole matter is to even just the general public.  If they had a scene like this more towards the beginning of the game, the point would hit home a lot better and they wouldn't have felt the need to keep telling you every other cutscene that the people hate and fear what you have become. 
#23 Posted by Wes899 (2115 posts) -

I dislike the characters and the plot seems to be nonsense. The battle system gets fun though.

#24 Posted by Meowayne (6084 posts) -
@Zenaxzd said:
" all your "facts" are all just a matter of opinion."
Please explain that, Zenaxzd. I do consider everything I titled as "fact" to be that, followed by where opinions factor in the evaluation. Bad writing, non-interactivity and pacing are all things you can make objective statements about - or if you don't like the word "objective", we'll take "with a significant level of consensus". 
 
  • You cannot make a statement or take a stance for "Final Fantasy XIII is well-written" or "Final Fantasy XIII features a quality script". You can't. You can enjoy it, you can not be bothered by it, you can even not notice it because you don't concern yourself with writing and storytelling. But you can not argue for the quality of the writing in this game. 
For example, I am one of the most avid Final Fantasy VII fans on this board - but there is no way I would argue for that game to have a good script. I enjoy it, but it is just as horribly written. I am also a huge Tolkien fan, but I don't consider him to be a particularly good writer.  
There is a good story there, there is a brilliant deal of ideas and imagination, and shadows of interesting characters. But the actual professional and technical aspect of bringing and transfering these elements into words, and translating these words into acted out scenes is a single tragedy and painful for everyone interested in the profession. Period.
 
  • You cannot argue that Final Fantasy XIII is anywhere other than the lowest end of the interactivity scale when it comes to videogaming. "It is about walking forward to trigger the next cutscene or battle" is not an exaggeration, it is not a cynical oversimplification - that is what this game is, 90% of the time. There are two or three times where you have to approach and speak to a couple of NPCs, there is one scene where you chase a chocobo chick, and there are a couple of instances of pushing buttons. That's it. 
 
  • You cannot argue against the notion that all of Final Fantasy XIII's cutscenes edited together would make an almost perfectly understandable, perfectly comprehensible and complete story and movie / series. This goes to show how irrelevant the parts that you actually participate in are to the story and storytelling. 
 
  • You cannot argue against the notion that the game was kept deliberately slow and goes on lengths to make sure that every single gameplay concept is introduced very detailed, only when it makes sense for the story, and then practised for 1-4 hours before a new one is introduced. Firstly because it's obvious, secondly because the developers said as much. 
 
 
Following each of these points, you can write: "It doesn't bother me." or "I like it that way". And that's fine! That's where "opinions" come in! But those ARE the points that some (many) people dislike, and they need NOT be ridiculed for complaining about them. They are valid points of complaint and discussion. 
 
"Fact."
#25 Posted by ZenaxPure (2569 posts) -
@Meowayne: Oh come on, now you're just trollin'. Saying you're opinions are "fact" and can't be argued is just arrogant. Since you clarified it the only actual "fact" in your post is that the game is on the low end of the interactivity scale, I mean jesus christ I am not sure why you even mentioned that in the first place. Who was arguing against it? Who was saying it was anything else? There are moments when you do interact with things that break up the walk forward -> kill shit routine but this isn't Fallout 3 or something.  
 
The other 3 can certainly be argued against in a legitimate way, if you can't see why (which seems to be the case) no matter what I or anyone else says will matter anyway. You are just too caught up in what you see being the only correct thing. I, however, understand legitimate complaints as to why people like or dislike certain aspects of the game and can agree to disagree but what you are saying now is just beyond crazy-town. 
 
Hell, read your own post. You are seriously stating in your first bullet point that the only works of literature that can be considered "well written" are the ones you deem so. Doesn't matter what I think is well written, doesn't matter what Jeff thinks is well written, doesn't matter what God thinks is well written. If Meowayne doesn't agree with you it makes it absolutely fact people, you heard it here first! Seriously, you're full of yourself and just making it more and more obvious each post. You can't tell people what their definition of good is, it isn't something concrete, gimme a break.
#26 Posted by Wes899 (2115 posts) -
@Zenaxzd: I do agree with him that the writing is genuinely bad. People can overlook that though, it's not that big a deal to some people.
#27 Posted by PufferFiz (1379 posts) -
@jlanzer said:
" @PufferFiz:  If it was an updated classic people would be bored with it and it wouldn't bring in new people to the genre like clubsanwich here.  There are plenty of "classic" rpg's out there, but to take the risk and develop something completely different than the norm I think XII pulled it off. "
see now this is the problem I have with the gamer industry today. They are to focused to make things main stream they lose sight of their audience. Just look at demon Souls. It was such a success that sony them selfs said it was a huge mistake not to purplish it in the us. Or better yet startcraft 2.
#28 Posted by ZenaxPure (2569 posts) -
@Wes899: You can think it's bad, others can think it's competent. My problem is Meowayne thinks what he says is law, which is ridiculously arrogant and annoying.
#29 Posted by Afroman269 (7387 posts) -

I don't care much for suffering through 5 plus hours to get to the "good" stuff. No thanks, k bye.

#30 Posted by SadPatrol (500 posts) -
@Marz:
I preffered chapter 6-10 rather than 11. At chapter 11 the enemies were too hard but that was also where the battle system really shined.
#31 Posted by hai2u (322 posts) -

I seem to remember past FFs where the chars were on the run and they were able to visit towns fine. Face it the reason there were no towns was bc squeenix decided to spend 90% of their resources on the pretty graphics. 

#32 Posted by ZenaxPure (2569 posts) -
@hai2u said:
" I seem to remember past FFs where the chars were on the run and they were able to visit towns fine. Face it the reason there were no towns was bc squeenix decided to spend 90% of their resources on the pretty graphics.  "
Really? I own and have played through all the FF games multiple times and don't recall a single instance where the entire world was under martial law with military men around every corner where the entire world wanted the main cast of characters dead.  
 
That said, I too believe the #1 reason behind the change was because Square had to spend a full year+ creating an engine to run the game but I appreciate they tied a very good in-game reason to the design choice instead of just saying "ah fuck it we couldn't afford it" and making the plot less sensible in that regard.
#33 Posted by hai2u (322 posts) -
@Zenaxzd:  yeah ffx13 went thru alot of growing pains from at first being a ps2 game and then needing an entire engine built for it. So hopefully now that square has laid all the groundwork the next installment will be able to expand on it with much more content than ffx13 bc if its just gona be like ffx13 with prettier graphics it will really turn away alot of fans forever, myself included. 
#34 Posted by Meowayne (6084 posts) -

 Saying you're opinions are "fact" and can't be argued is just arrogant.

No, I'm saying there are things that can't be argued against, but can spawn very different opinions.
My own opinion didn't even enter my post, so obviously you read it completely wrong. For example, I have nothing against the game's slow pace and ten hours of tutorials. It didn't bother me at all.
But the fact remains that the pacing is very questionable and is a design choice mourned by many.

Who was arguing against it? Who was saying it was anything else?

You, by implying that the only reason one could have to not deem Final Fantasy XIII a good game is fanboyism and bandwagoning. You claimed there were no quality measures suitable as argument in assessing a game's quality, only opinions. And you continued to do so with this last post of yours. This is what I go against.

The other 3 can certainly be argued against in a legitimate way

Please do so. But remember: Nobody is interested in arguing about whether or not part XYZ is good or bad. I am not interested in your reasons to like, for example, the game's non-interactiveness. I am interested in your argument for why and how anyone could claim for Final Fantasy XIII to be a very interactive storytelling experience.
So, I repeat my claim: It is a fact that Final Fantasy XIII's story is not told interactively.

I, however, understand legitimate complaints as to why people like or dislike certain aspects of the game

You didn't make that impression.

You are seriously stating in your first bullet point that the only works of literature that can be considered "well written" are the ones you deem so


No. I state in my first bullet point that there exists a consensus in assessing the quality of a writer, and the quality of writing. I highlighted that this is very much detached from any individuals enjoyment of this writing.
There is the discussion on whether or not Final Fantasy XIII is written well, and there is the discussion on whether or not you enjoyed Final Fantasy XIII's writing. These two can be independant of one another. In the case of Final Fantasy XIII, however, yes: I claim that the discussion is pointless and that nobody would seriously have it, as Final Fantasy XIII is objectively badly written.

You can't tell people what their definition of good is, it isn't something concrete, gimme a break.

I can, and I do. And the scientific community does. There is such a thing as measurably bad writing. There are such things as an amateurish, clumsy techniques in conveying ideas and pictures via words. Writing is something you learn, practice and improve. Writing is something you can assess. Whether or not certain style or content choices serve or hinder the storytelling can be agreed upon. It is a craft. And this craft has not been executed well in Final Fantasy XIII. 
 
It is no matter of opinion whether the craft of writing has been well executed in XIII. It hasn't.
It is no matter of opinion whether the craft of engaging the player in the storytelling has been well executed in XIII. It hasn't. 
It is no matter of opinion whether Final Fantasy XIII is paced in a way that is agreeable to every gamer. It isn't. 
 
What is a matter of opinion is what you make of these circumstances, and how much (if at all) you are bothered by it.
 
#35 Posted by ZenaxPure (2569 posts) -
@hai2u: Yes that is my personal biggest take away from FF13. I fully enjoyed my time with the entire game but it just makes me excited to see what they do next. I fully hope a XIII-2 comes because with the engine done and made, character models done, a lot of environments done they could spend all of their resources on expanding on everything... I drool at the thought. 
 
One thing to remember of course is Square has a lot of different teams. The 13 team is the X team and the games have a lot of similarities. If there is not a XIII-2 chances are the next title (versus 13 aside) will be made by a completely different team and will feel nothing like 13, much like 12 felt nothing like X.
#36 Posted by Wes899 (2115 posts) -
@Zenaxzd: I'm of the camp that thinks that a thing can be factually considered bad writing. I'm not going to argue that though, I can see it's going nowhere fast.
#37 Posted by Greenlight13 (99 posts) -

I think equal parts the amount of time we had to wait to play it, and the whole linear thing. 
 
The level of work required to make these games is increasing with every installment, and likewise the amount of time it takes for them to get released is going up and up to the point that only two were released in the... what.... 7 or 8 year span of the PS2? The PS3 has been on the market for 3 years or so now I believe, and we've only just seen the release of the first Final Fantasy game for the platform. That's a very long time to wait for a game and given the massive fan-base the series possesses and the legacy for the franchise, I think some people were going to be unwilling to accept anything less than perfection. FF13 was not perfect. FF7 and 8 weren't perfect either if you're fair about it, so it was always going to be a bit of a disappointment.
 
I probably wouldn't have had an issue with the game being linear if this was the first entry in the series, because there are plenty of games that don't let you backtrack and free-roam. Sure the open-world format has become a lot more popular, but it's not uncommon to make a play go from Point A to Point B and that's it. But with 12 (or 11 in all honesty) predecessors that used open-worlds and let you progress at more or less any pace you wanted, it's created a backlash.
 
I personally admire the fact that they tried something a bit different. I enjoy the typical Final Fantasy experience as much as the next person, but there have been times that it feels like the same game with different characters and the odd terminology change. Some people are happy playing an updated version of the same game time after time, and these are probably the people who were most against FF13. i happen to think that change is a good thing and I enjoyed my time with FF13, regardless of how different it was to what I expected.

#38 Posted by ClownDetective (142 posts) -
@Meowayne: I dont understand why you're so hung up on 'non-interactiveness'. As far as I can recall every FF (and every jrpg I've played) has had a storyline which unfolds in a preset, singuler fashion - and everything you do within the game simply triggers that progression. In FF13 you battle and by battling through the game trigger the story. Is there really any other way you can progress through the story in other FFs? 
Also, your view on writing seems very narrow-minded. I don't like the writing in FF13 either, and I could call it 'bad', but my friend's little sister who is playing the game loves the over-the-top caricatures and off-beat dialogue. Speaking to her about the game I can understand that while I may not like the writing in this game, it's not because it's 'bad' it's because it's written in that typically Japanese kid-friendly style. You said yourself you love FFVII despite it's bad writing - probably for the same reasons.
#39 Posted by ZenaxPure (2569 posts) -
@Meowayne: See you're doing it again. You are openly saying there is a set of concrete standards that determine the quality of writing from product to product when in reality there isn't. There is a "agreed upon consensus" by various groups of people but those all change depending on who you are talking to you. Many can argue writer X is amateurish while writer Y isn't, Final Fantasy XIII is no different than that, there is however no actual concrete laws that determine what is good and what is bad it is all open to each individual playing/reading/watching. 
 
Secondly, I wasn't sure what you were referring to about non-interactiveness in your original post which is the only reason I said it was debatable. When you made yourself clear I fully agreed, I was not at all arguing against it. Also if you take a look at my original post I "claimed" these were the 2 biggest reasons, not the only reasons. I never said ONLY. My phrasing clearly indicates there could be/are other reasons people hate the game or parts of it. 
 
Lastly "  My own opinion didn't even enter my post, so obviously you read it completely wrong. For example, I have nothing against the game's slow pace and ten hours of tutorials. It didn't bother me at all." It is you reading it wrong, I was not referencing your own opinion of the game. I was obviously referring to what you consider to be "fact" (those points you bolded the word fact on) to be nothing more than opinion. 
 
They are opinion because you can't give any actual proof they are fact, you could go find your sources that claim it is one way and I could go find sources that claim it is another way but at the end we would have 2 conflicting opinions. Unlike yourself though I acknowledge they are opinions and not fact.
#40 Posted by MikkaQ (10294 posts) -

I didn't like it because they didn't bother to cleverly mask the linearity of it all, the illusion is all the fun, who lives in a world that's a tunnel, basically? It just didn't feel believable that way. 
 
Battle system was neat, but I hated the fact that it took like 15 hours to get to full speed. I found it plain insulting for them to assume I couldn't grasp a battle system like that in about an hour. 
 
Basically I'm with Brad in saying the game could have been half as long.. and I'd have liked it a lot more. A tighter, more focused package, basically. 
 
I'm not touching the story because that's objective and stuff, plus I don't want fanboys on my back.

#41 Posted by ZenaxPure (2569 posts) -
@ClownDetective said:
" @Meowayne:  Also, your view on writing seems very narrow-minded. I don't like the writing in FF13 either, and I could call it 'bad', but my friend's little sister who is playing the game loves the over-the-top caricatures and off-beat dialogue. "
Exactly. Good or bad writing is all in the eye of the viewer/player/reader. There is no law or absolute regarding the quality of something as a whole.
#42 Posted by InfiniteGeass (2054 posts) -

Because haters are going to hate. Doesn't matter if it's a great game or not, there will always be haters.

#43 Edited by jlanzer (49 posts) -

Linearity does not make a bad game.  Case and point God of War games and any action game for that matter.  The argument is that it doesn't give the player the immersion or feel of the world doesn't make since to me.  You don't need a world map to get a feel for a world.  Does it help, yes, but it isn't necessary.  It just takes the players attitude and ability to suspend their reality and immerse themselves in a fictional world.  It is true that life isn't a tunnel, but stories are and when you are playing vicariously through a character in a game you have a set path regardless if it feels like it or not.   If you want an rpg that has a massive world to roam around this isn't it.  Does that make it a bad game no, it just makes it a different kind of rpg.
 
The other argument that squenix just spent vast amounts of money to create a pretty game is true.  Does this detract from a game, no.  What detracts from a game is the gameplay which is unrelated to how much money was spent.  Hideo Kojima and Konami spent vast amounts of money on MGS4, but it was the gameplay that ultimately made the game, not because it looked good, although it helps.  So if you're arguing that the money spent on the game takes away from the game is ridiculous.  If you want to complain amount the game design, complain about it, if you want to complain about the lack of cities, complain away, but its not the fact they spent money that kept these features from the game.  
 
Let's assume for a while that the story and the progression through the game was already made up before the budget was set or even any development  was started, I know big assumption right?  Why would they need an excuse to make the game linear when that's what they set out to do from the beginning anyways?
 
I don't care if people like the game or not, but to hate a game just because its not what you expected is so flawed.  Hate the game for what it is not some idea of what you thought it should be.

#44 Posted by ZenaxPure (2569 posts) -
@jlanzer said:
" Hate the game for what it is not some idea of what you thought it should be. "
Amen

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