#1 Edited by realph (263 posts) -

As mentioned in the other thread, I finished the game last night and am still recovering from one of the most pleasurable video game experiences I've ever had, which I'd put up there with Ocarina of Time, Portal, Half-Life 2 and the original BioShock.

Anyways, I wanted to use this thread to discuss the game in full, no holds barred, that means spoilers. So, if you don't want to be spoiled DO NOT read below this line.

Update: I've went ahead and used unmarked spoilers as I believe the thread title gives apt warning.

So, that ending... I'm no good with time travel, so someone might need to step in and correct me but what I understood was this:

Timeline A: After Wounded knee, Booker washes away his sins and is born again. Turning to God, Booker creates Columbia with the help of the Lutece's, due to his spiritual transformation he changes his name to Comstock and successfully invents time travel (also with the help of the Lutece's). Time travel works but such close proximity to the testing of it renders Comstock (formally Booker) sterile.

Unable to produce, and realising he'll need an heir to his throne if Columbia is to continue after his passing, he goes back in time with Robert Lutece and helps an alternate timeline Booker (Timeline B) to clear his debt in exchange for Booker's daughter. Booker reluctantly agrees and hands Anna (who is renamed Elizabeth) over.

To protect his secret and the real identity of his newly-purchased daughter Elizabeth, and to hide the fact that Elizabeth is about 1 yrs old at this point AND that Mrs. Comstock in the nine months prior showed no signs of pregnancy, Comstock makes up an elaborate story that Elizabeth was the product of a miracle and was conceived in just 7 days. Not only does this hoax work, but adds even more credence to the religious dream he's peddling with Columbia.

Meanwhile, enraged that the child isn't hers, Mrs. Comstock is teetering on the edge and believes Comstock has had an affair as she's damn sure the child hasn't come from her (as heard in the audio logs). Slowly becoming a risk and worried that she'll compromise things and blow the facade to pieces, Comstock has Mrs. Comstock killed and frames Daisy Fitzroy for the murder, which again, only helps Columbia's racial stance and fuels its "pure" beliefs.

Paranoid, Comstock also has both Lutece's killed, erasing all coconspirators in his big fat secret.

He then has Elizabeth locked away in a tower, probably due to her tendency of opening up tears. Comstock builds the tower and the siphon to stop her from doing this. (Thanks @khazidhea!)

Weary that Timeline B booker will return one day (I guess this is one of the reasons she's locked up and guarded by Songbird), he skews his religious propaganda that one day a False Shepard marked with the initials "AD" will try and lead his lamb (Elizabeth) astray. So that by the time Booker turns up enough of Columbia will be brainwashed and he will have essential raised an army to "deal with" Booker – thus keeping his secret safe, and Elizabeth none the wiser.

Timeline B:

After Wounded Knee Booker was almost born again but refused to go through with the ceremony as he didn't believe his sins could simply be washed away. After this he has a daughter (Anna DeWitt), turns to gambling and gets in debt with the wrong people. Robert Lutece shows up one day on behalf of Comstock and offers to clear the debt in exchange for his newborn. Booker, realising what a horrible thing he's just done, tries to get Anna back but fails, causing Anna to lose part of her pinky finger.

For the next say 19 years Booker goes through depression, and through his stupor engraves the initials AD (Anna Dewitt) onto his hand to remind/punish himself for what's he's done. The Lutece's both travel back in time after the exchange of Anna/Elizabeth (but before their deaths I believe) and guide a now damaged Booker to the lighthouse to "Bring us the girl and wipe away the debt". I'm not sure why they do this, some help here would be appreciated.

Booker goes to Columbia, attempts to save his daughter, but is unable to leave Columbia. I think this is due to being stuck in a loop, and the only way to save her from going through 19 years in Columbia is to drown Booker to prevent Anna from ever being born. Drowning Booker at the source also prevents Comstock being born out of the ceremony and the gambling debt from incurring in the first place.

Booker is killed in the river and therefore Anna/Elizabeth is never born. Columbia never happens.

--------

I'm not sure if everything above is correct, or if there's an infinite loop going on, or whatever, but I really enjoyed the twist and didn't see it coming.

I also frikkin' loved the Rapture bit, it totally caught me off guard and rendered a huge smile on my face. I loved when they stepped outside and Elizabeth exclaimed:

Constants and variables. There's always a lighthouse, you, me, a Songbird. But sometimes something's different... yet the same.

We start in different oceans, but end up on the same shore. It always starts with a lighthouse.

I took that to mean that all over the universe, there's a guy that happens across a lighthouse to save a girl from a Songbird or a Big Daddy. Meaning there's always these worlds, joint by those constants, happening all the time, through every period, and it always starts with a lighthouse. I hope understood that correctly, because it was nod to the original game and blew my fucking mind to think that there are more BioShock adventures out there.

Anyways, this is beginning to get long. If anyone else has gotten through it, I'd be interested in discussing the ending and the bits I didn't understand. Hope some of what I wrote was at least helpful in explaining the last hour of that brilliant game.

#2 Edited by Khazidhea (5 posts) -

Agree, great game.

Very good write up by the way.

I believe she was locked away because she had tendency to open up tears (I guess thanks to her being born in other dimension) so they build the tower and the siphon to stop her from doing it.

Still can't figure out the scientists. AFAIR they were separated in different timelines for some reason. How did that happen initially? What about them coming back from the dead? I mean it's their alternate timeline versions, but why? What do they want?

The remark to original Bioshock with lighthouses - I did not get it. It was kinda cool, but the story there is quite different, isn't it? Still it confuses me. I really wanna know what it's supposed to mean, but it doesn't make sense to me =\

The bad Elizabeth and burning New York - why did the message had to be so ... unclear? Why not just say play the notes C, A, G, E? What happened to Booker in that hospital? I mean he was chasing Songbird and then was thrown forward and backward in time a lot while looking for her. WTF was that? The scientists interfering? What do they even want?

I got the same ending as you (being drowned), but I think it might depend on some of the choices during the game. The once I remember: I chose heads for the coin toss, I chose bird necklace, I let the army ex-friend live ... was there more? I also killed some innocent civilians. Maybe there is a better ending?

#3 Posted by MC_Hify (352 posts) -

Nice write up

I didn't collect all the audio logs so I missed some stuff. The Lutece's were actually the same person from different timelines, one where he was born a man and one where she was born a woman. They weren't actually siblings. They were helping Elizabeth for the same reason Booker was, to make up for what they had done. As for why they were not dead there is an audio log where she speculates that they exist in "infinite possiblities" now or something like that.

And the moment you realize you are at a stoning, holy crap that was intense.

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#4 Edited by realph (263 posts) -

@khazidhea: Yeah, I think you're spot on about the tears. I might have to delve deeper into this on a second playthrough.

Regarding the Lutece's, I'm not sure. This might be a question better answered by someone who understands time travel. I assumed they weren't dead when you meet them throughout Columbia, and that they were simply time travelling.

The remark to the original BioShock seems to be this: There are a few constants that tie both the original BioShock and Infinite's worlds together. A lighthouse, a guy, a girl, a Songbird.

Constants and variables. There's always a lighthouse, you, me, a Songbird. But sometimes something's different... yet the same.

Look at this:

GameStarts with LighthouseHeroPrisoner/sThe Protector
BioShockYES (this variable never changes)JackLittle SistersBig Daddy
Bioshock InfiniteYES (this variable never changes)BookerElizabethSongbird

The way I understand it, is that there are all these worlds out there, all connected by a single thread of constants. These journeys always begin with a lighthouse, this is a constant, this never changes. These journeys always involve a hero, a prisoner/s, and a protector, these are also constants, these never change. The only things here that change are the variables, the variables being: Jack/Booker, Little Sisters/Elizabeth, Big Daddy/Songbird. In these many worlds, these variables can take the form of different people or persons.

There's always a lighthouse, you, me, a Songbird. But sometimes something's different... yet the same.

#5 Posted by MostUnfurrowed (1 posts) -

Ah ha. One thing I'm struggling to get my head around is the apparent age difference between Booker and Comstock. When Booker meets old Elizabeth, I believe he's aged there as some of his enemies spout things lie 'die old man' and whatnot, but in the 19 years between 1893 and getting to Columbia, Comstock has aged to what you'd presume to be a 60 year-old man yet Booker has not? I feel like Booker is supposed to have 'skipped' some time inadvertently but can't quite place it.

#6 Posted by realph (263 posts) -

@khazidhea: In regards to old Elizabeth, I'm not sure. Maybe that's the loop? Booker's unable to save Elizabeth from Comstock time and time again, until eventually Elizabeth gets old and takes up her father's role where she burns down New York.

Made the same choices as you, but I think I heard there's only one ending for this game. Which is fine with me.

@runcrash: Lutece's are the same person. Wait, what? I'm confused. Care to explain? I thought incest was hinted at between the two.

#7 Posted by Pudge (923 posts) -

@realph: I think you're confused because you think Elizabeth is using Time Travel, when really she's opening dimensional gateways. The two Luteces are the same person, just from different worlds, much like Booker and Comstock. It's shown throughout that the tears can open windows into the future and the past, and also it's implied in one of the audiologs that the female Lutece at least has the tear powers as well, so I would imagine Lutece opened a tear to grab depressed alcoholic Booker and bring him to the dimension where Columbia is a thing, and that demension is forward in time compared to Bookers original timeline.

I love complex narratives.

#8 Posted by KenLevineIsCool (23 posts) -

Just finished it. OMG I'm so impressed. I play almost all noticable games that come out, at least check them out and this was by far the best experience I had. Couldn't stop playing it untill I finished. The story, pacing and how all unwinds at the end is just breathtaking. For me best game this generation.

#9 Edited by realph (263 posts) -

@pudge: I might need some help explaining the Lutece's. How are they the same person? I was aware Elizabeth wasn't time travelling, but simply opening tears into new universes. But isn't that essentially a form of time travel?

@abuzlov I have no quarrel with anyone calling this the best game this gen. I have this tied with Portal 1/2.

#10 Posted by rebgav (1429 posts) -

The art design for this game is gorgeous. It looks like it plays well. There might be great moments with Elizabeth that I missed by dozing off while watching someone else play the game, I am going to assume that much.

However, they should have cut the ending and just thrown in a close up shot of Ken Levine saying "I know, right? Same shit, different game." And then he shrugs and stares off into the middle-distance all melancholy-like.

#11 Posted by Pudge (923 posts) -

@realph: Male Lutece is born in one dimension. Female Lutece is born in his place in another dimension. They meet during the initial experimentation of the tear technology and the female Lutece devotes her time to living with her male counterpart because she wants to have intelligent conversations with him (I'm assuming, that's a trope of this kind of thing). Female Lutece pulls Male Lutece into the Columbia dimension, and they "die" later on, but not really since their graves are empty when Booker is in the graveyard. They instead escape into the tears and become dimension hoppers, showing up where they're needed to help reverse the terrible things they've set in motion in regards to Elizabeth.

In fact, I'm pretty sure they're both there when Booker is trying to get Baby Anna from Comstock, that might be the time when the Male Lutece is brought into Columbia.

#12 Edited by Bocam (3826 posts) -

Regarding the Luteces, there's an audiolog you find in a bathroom near the end of game that says the male Lutece is just another version of the female one

#13 Edited by realph (263 posts) -

@bocam: I'm not denouncing what you're saying but how the hell does that work? I understand Booker depending on the outcome of the baptism can go on to lead the lives of two men, but essentially Comstock is still Booker. How through tears or time travel can their sex be affected?

#14 Posted by rebgav (1429 posts) -

@realph said:

@bocam: I'm not denouncing what you're saying but how the hell does that work? I understand Booker depending on the outcome of the baptism can go on to lead the lives of two men, but essentially Comstock is still Booker. How through tears or time travel can their sex be affected?

Imagine that there are infinite dimensions in which all sorts of tiny variations can occur. In one dimension, Booker DeWitt is baptized and becomes Comstock - in another he refuses the baptism and remains DeWitt. Similarly, in one dimension Lutece is conceived as a female and in one of the other bajillions of dimensions Lutece is conceived as a child of the male gender - same concept, different variable.

Sadly all of those characters are in the Bioshock universe, not so much a universe of infinite possibilities as a universe of one possibility recurring.

#15 Posted by Pudge (923 posts) -

@realph said:

@bocam: I'm not denouncing what you're saying but how the hell does that work? I understand Booker depending on the outcome of the baptism can go on to lead the lives of two men, but essentially Comstock is still Booker. How through tears or time travel can their sex be affected?

There are infinite lighthouses, with infinite variables. Hence the name of the game. It's basically saying that there could be another Columbia with a female Booker rescuing a male Elizabeth from the tower. If you want to get silly, there could be another dimension where everyone is a cat. That's just how multiple dimensions work.

#16 Edited by iGooner7 (136 posts) -

Just beated the game! Its UNBELIEVABLE! My mind got blown

Its simply EPIIIIIIIIIIC! Thank you Irrational games for this masterpiece!

Ladies and Gentlemen, Here's your 2013 GOTY :)

#17 Edited by realph (263 posts) -

@pudge: I think you're right. In that instance, when Booker returns to rescue Anna, male Lutece is apprehensive about jumping through that dimension window to get to Columbia.

So, female Lutece must be the only one that helps Comstock build Columbia in the beginning (Elizabeth mentions she's the one that helped build the city). Male Lutece joins them at the same time as Anna/Elizabeth. Makes sense why Mrs. Comstock believed her husband was having an affair with female Lutece as male Lutece wasn't in the picture until this point.

@pudge said:

There are infinite lighthouses, with infinite variables. Hence the name of the game. It's basically saying that there could be another Columbia with a female Booker rescuing a male Elizabeth from the tower.

Gotcha! Thanks duder.

#18 Edited by realph (263 posts) -

FUCK! That ending was terrific!

I posted this is the other thread, but wanted to run this theory by a couple of you guys/gals:

In the bit where you first come across the Lutece's for the first time in Columbia and they have a chalkboard and ask you to pick a side of a coin. On the chalkboard, there's a tally. Almost 200 have chosen heads.

I specifically remember when you pick a side of the coin (say heads for arguments sake), they mention something along the lines of:

See, I told you he wouldn't pick tails! He never does.

Does this have something to do with Booker repeating this rescue time and time again within an infinite loop? Is there a third timeline where he is unable to save Elizabeth if he doesn't partake in the drowning of himself at the baptism. Is Old Elizabeth standing above a burning New York the result of a third timeline, wherein Booker is stuck in an infinite loop, unable to rescue Elizabeth causing her to age and take Comstock's place?

#19 Posted by MC_Hify (352 posts) -

I don't remember there being a choice between heads and tails, Booker just says tails. As for the Lutece's we all start off as female in utero right? It's just half the people have a y chromosome and develop male characteristics, in the Comstock universe Lutece is born as a woman, in the Booker universe Lutece is born as a man. I remember an episode of Sliders had the same concept. And speaking of tv.

Fringe spoilers:

There are several things in common with Fringe. The alternate dimensions, the scientist that develops the technology to view other dimensions and seems himself and later develops the technology to travel between them, the taking of one child with great power from one dimension into another without people knowing, the chopping off of a body part in a closing dimensional tear, the two versions of the same person fighting each other, the zeppelins. Given how late in development they said the story came together I'm really surprised that they would make something so similar to something that already existed even down to the same story beats.

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#20 Posted by Khazidhea (5 posts) -

Pretty sure you had to choose the side of the coin. I remember one more choice - to throw the ball at the couple or at the guy next to them.

Read in some other place that the split (baptism) happened AFTER he sold his daughter.

So, right now it looks like this to me:

Originally Booker is a depressed gambler after all the wars that he was in. Gets into a huge debt. Sells his daughter to a random person to wash a way the debt. Guilt eats at him. Turns to religion, gets baptized and becomes Comstock. Builds Columbia (btw what is \ who is Archangel?).

His lead scientist is the female Lutece. She works on a time travel technology. Because of the close contact to this technology Comstock becomes sterile. He thinks that he can buy his daughter from himself using time travel. A pretty good idea if you ask me! Because that is what happened already. That would work perfectly if it was a fixed timeline (have a look at this http://i.imgur.com/bc8Du.jpg). But instead we have alternate timelines. So Comstock buys Ana from alternate timeline Bookers with help of his own Lutece and alternate timeline Lutece. Which leads alternate timeline Bookers to depression and finally to baptism. Which he either accepts and creates one more Comstock timeline.

Or he refuses and we get to the events of the game. Now lets back up to the Columbia timeline. In this version the Lutece from alternate timeline was male and jumped into Columbia timeline after getting Ana from Bookers. Turns out Ana has tear powers. Everyone freaks out and Lutece build the siphon to stop he from doing it. Meanwhile Comstock's wife gets ups over this child, thinks her husband is cheating. Comstock creates a big fat lie to cover everything, gets pretty crazy and kills his wife and both Lutece.

Lutece don't die however and instead escape into the alternate timeline. The hire Bookers after he refused baptism to get back the girl and they hope that it will fix the whole time travelling mess. Now they take Bookers back to Columbia timeline and he wakes up on a boat with them. His memory gets all messed up. He confuses "get the girl", "wipe away the debt". The game events all happen.

The asylum bit - I still don't fully get it. Correct me. Songbird take Liz to asylum where she is tortured and brainwashed. He gets to her, breaks her out. Now my memory fails me a bit here. I might be off here. But I think you get attacked by Vox? Now if you don't have Songbird helping you I guess what happens is Bookers gets killed, Liz is upset and agry, wipes away Vox. Brainwashing + this hatred to Vox kicks in, she starts following Comstock. She attacks New York, but at some point she regrets what she has done, gets Booker from alternate timeline right after Songbird gets her and before he breaks in 6 months after that. Tells him whats up, write the message to use Songbird against Vox, sends him back at the time of the break-in. Somehow Luteces help Bookers there as well. Now they break out and use Songbird. All is good. Hand of Prophet, Bookers kills Comstock.

Liz starts the explanation. The find the moment of baptism, the fork, the moment when Comstock is created. Bookers is drowned. So there is no possibility of Comstock or Bookers going to Columbia. There is no Ana making tears. Bookers sold her to some random person and the was drawned when being baptized.

Shit, you know what? I just realized it doesn't fully close the loop. Man, I was typing and retyping this, because I realized something new as I go alone for like an hour already!

So, what I think now: unless you can change the events of existing timeline if Bookers gets killed at baptism it just leads to another time line without him. It doesn't solve anything. And it does look that you can only travel between timelines, not change anything. Because otherwise Comstock just buys daughter off his younger self and there is no problem. Another proof is the male Lutece. I think there is also a voxaphone of female Lutece having contact with male Lutece and it's like ... it is alternate timelines!

Argh, idk, it might not make sense in the end, guys. 99% of time travel fiction does not. The ones that do are an absolute mind fuck (see Primer). It gets me frustrated.

P.S. Does anyone know where Bioshock Infinite keeps save files? I think I wanna replay some bits, but I'm afraid if I load the chapter the new autosaves will overwrite existing ones.

#21 Edited by Ghosts45 (2 posts) -

Well the way i see it is, Elizabeth is still alive, because of the way it scrolls up, she doesnt fade out like the others did. So she is still alive. I really want the next bioshock to continue this storyline, Elizabeth is a character that needs to be continued, to just drop it after one game, is an injustice.

#22 Edited by GunstarRed (5477 posts) -

Just finished it... my mind was blown after the final battle.

#23 Edited by TrulyAlive (909 posts) -

MOTHERFUCKING MAD SPOILERS BELOW (The WYSIWYG isn't showing on my computer)

Huh. Weird. I might have entirely misread the ending.

When Booker referred to being both himself and Comstock, I assumed it was a metaphor for how they both essentially abandoned Elizabeth: Booker to Comstock, Comstock to the tower.

Is there any proof other than that one line at the very end (which I took to mean something entirely different to you guys) to suggest they're the same person?

#24 Posted by TrulyAlive (909 posts) -

Hate to double post, but I actually just thought about it a bit and came up with the following reasons why the Booker/Comstock thing doesn't sit well with me:
(If you see this post in another thread, alright, I admit, I stole it from myself)

  • If Comstock is buying Anna from Booker (something you'd assume he'd pretty explicitly aware of) then why would he rename her Elizabeth. What function does that serve?
  • Why is Comstock so old? Elizabeth is supposed to be around 19 years old, putting her date of birth at about 1893 (the same year that Columbia made it's debut at the Chicago World's Fair). If Booker and Comstock are the same dude, that means that Bookers pre-Columbia timeline(the 'flashback room') would have happened back in the 1950's or so with Elizabeth being born in at about the same time and pulled forward to the 1890's when Comstock takes her from Booker. Now, admittedly there's no evidence to dispute that this is the case, but not much to suggest it is the case, either. Except for the next point:
  • Booker served at the Wounded Knee Massacre. This is a real life thing that happened back in 1890. And it was clearly young Booker that served then because, hey, our protagonist remembers it. That means that his Baptism had to happen sometime after 1890, probably after Elizabeth's bith in 1893*. If Booker and Comstock are the same person, then why does Comstock age 50 years whilst Booker only ages 20 in the 19 years between Columbia's unveiling and the events of the game. Also, isn't 3 years a really short time to build a revolutionary city utilizing unheard of technology?
  • The struckout point above: Booker must have been baptised before Elizabeth was born because otherwise, how is it that killing Booker kills the Elizabeths? This pretty much kills the whole Comstock thing for me entirely, because it means that Booker would need to undergo a whole other spiritual awakening to become Comstock, and that just seems unlikely to me.

Just my observations. I personally am still choosing to believe that when Booker says that he's both he and Comstock, that he's being metaphorical about that fact that they both abandoned Elizabeth, to some extent.

#25 Posted by Pudge (923 posts) -

@ghosts45 said:

Well the way i see it is, Elizabeth is still alive, because of the way it scrolls up, she doesnt fade out like the others did. So she is still alive. I really want the next bioshock to continue this storyline, Elizabeth is a character that needs to be continued, to just drop it after one game, is an injustice.

I like to think that since she has all that power now, she's like the Lulece (I hate that name) twins, able to jump around alternate dimensions at will.

As for Comstock being so old, I don't think that's unbelievable. If Booker is 30ish when he sells Anna, he would have 20 or so years to turn 50 and grow a wicked beard during his rise to power. Of course, you can also blame any minor time discrepancies on the fact that the tears also utilize time displacement as well as dimensional travel, so it's possible that Comstock had more time or was older when he was Booker in the original Columbia timeline.

#26 Edited by Pudge (923 posts) -

Man, I'd love if one of the DLCs was just an adventure through alternate dimensions with no continuity to worry about. It'd be like a Marvel What If? comic in video game form. Maybe they could even throw in another trip to Rapture to pick up a Plasmid or two temporarily :p

#27 Edited by MC_Hify (352 posts) -

@khazidhea: No, Elizabeth wasn't born until after Booker walks away from the baptism. That's why all the Elizabeths disappear at the end because they were never born.

In one timeline Booker walks away from the baptism, meets Anna's mother who dies in childbirth, he then gives away Anna to himself from an alternate timeline to settle gambling debts. It's not really clear if he knew who he was giving her away to but he sure as hell figured out part of it when he saw them disappear in to the dimensional tear.

In another timeline Booker is baptised and is reborn as Zachary Comstock and builds Columbia with Lutece for the 1893 world's fair (in reality the city that was built for the 1893 world's fair was the "White City" in Chicago which is the topic of the novel "Devil in the White City" which Ken Levine said inspired the game). Comstock then secedes from the US after the Boxer Rebellion and he wants to bring destruction to the world below which he sees as sinful. Comstock sees using technology that Lutece had created that he would die before he started his war against the ground but his child would complete it. But he is sterile from his proximity to the dimensional travel/viewing technology so he buys Anna from his alternate self that walked away from the baptism, renames her Elizabeth and locks her up in the tower with the siphon to take away some of her power and has songbird as her protector/jailer.

The presence of that dimensional technology along with maybe the presence of Elizabeth causes all these tears to happen in Columbia which explain all the anachronistic music and scifi technology. Fink has an audio log where he says he got the ideas for the robotics, cyborgs, and vigors by looking through these tears.

The Luteces, realizing their mistake then pull Booker into Comstock's timeline and send him on a path to rescue Elizabeth. But he fails to rescue her and she eventually becomes like Comstock through years of brainwashing. Then after she has started to attack New York in 1984 she brings Booker to her and tells him how to control the songbird. She then sends him back to sometime after the songbird recaptures her but before she is brainwashed and he resuces her and tells her how to control the songbird. She then has the songbird destroy the siphon so her power is fully restored and she realizes what she needs to do to kill all Comstocks in all timelines where he exists, to stop Columbia from being built in all timelines where it exists, and ultimate how to stop herself from destroying the world in all timelines where she is brainwashed.

She takes Booker back to the moment where all those timelines originated, the baptism, and drowns Booker before he either goes through with baptism or can walk away from it. This stops Comstock from existing but it also stops herself from existing. This is the only way to stop the destruction of Comstock and to save herself the torture of being locked away and brainwashed.

In the post credits scene it appears that some version of her, like the Lutece, is "lost between possibilities" and still exists in some form.

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#28 Edited by Bladefire (214 posts) -

@trulyalive: The age issue is addressed by Lutece in an audio-log. She comments that his exposure to her "contraption" has caused him to age rapidly and become sterile. I think the most likely explanation is that the choice to be baptized or not is the variable/dimensional split in which he remains Booker in one and becomes Comstock in the other. The post-credit scene leaves it ambiguous as to whether or not Booker changed the timeline/is in a dimension in which he held onto Anna.

#29 Posted by Pudge (923 posts) -

@runcrash: Thank you for that, you're the first person I've read to put it all together in a way that makes sense to me.

#30 Edited by TrulyAlive (909 posts) -

@bladefire said:

@trulyalive: The age issue is addressed by Lutece in an audio-log. She comments that his exposure to her "contraption" has caused him to age rapidly and become sterile. I think the most likely explanation is that the choice to be baptized or not is the variable/dimensional split in which he remains Booker in one and becomes Comstock in the other.

Valid point. Going over some audiologs, I came across one from with Slate in it that I found interesting. In it, Slate mentions that Comstock has never heard the screams of men in battle. Slate served with Booker in the past. If Booker is Comstock, you would imagine that Slate got into Columbia via this connection. Perhaps it's an oversight, or maybe Comstock kept his past hidden (as he now appears to be 30 years older. I don't know, if the Booker/Comstock theory is correct then it's a strange anachronism. I'm still not 100% convinced, to be honest.

Actually, I just rewatched the ending an I think I missed a line that pretty clearly points out that, yeah, they're the same. I hereby abandon my previous theory and jump aboard the BooKomstock train.

#31 Posted by Khazidhea (5 posts) -

@runcrash: I like it. Very good. I almost had it, but you cleaned up my version nicely.

I don't think he knew that he sold Anna to himself from other dimension.

Luteces. What "mistake" are you talking about? How did Luteces hire Booker? At the start he was very much "get the girl and wipe away the debt". He had no idea that Elizabeth=Anna, that he was trying to save his own daughter. What was the motivation for Luteces? Were Luteces trying to prevent the war? Or just undo the time loop? Why didn't Luteces themselves kill Booker during baptism then? Did they want to leave it up to Elizabeth and Booker?

Where did it say that burning New York takes place in 1984? Just curious, didn't notice that. Why did she bring Booker here, at that moment and not earlier? Would you agree with me that once she saw New York burning she started having doubts, regrets and decided to change? Why was the message so unnecessarily enigmatic with a drawing of a cage, instead of just saying in plain English - play notes C, A, G, E to control songbird?

The remark to previous games. I like the way it sounds with constants of a man, a lighthouse and a city. I really like it. Revisiting Rupture, its lighthouse and bathysphere was kinda cool. But it doesn't make sense to me. Now, I only played the original Bioshock and haven't touched the second one (I read about it) . I don't see the clear one-to-one correlation between characters ... there is no Elizabeth, there is no Comstock.

I mean Jack and Andrew Ryan are certainly not the same person and sure there are little sisters, but there is no "one true" Elizabeth. It takes place in a different time too. Yeah, Liz mentions variables and the time of the events I guess is up to a change, the location being different - it can happen in any city. But overall story should be the same, right? I also feel like it should be linked to a tear, a fork, a deciding point in time and for all Bioshocks it looks like the lighthouse is this point. I don't see why. Shouldn't it be baptism? Ignoring this Rapture bit I am very close to understanding the whole thing.

P.S. Somebody remind me what happens after big battle on the airship when Songbird helps you? The next thing I remember is Songbird drowning as you watch him from inside of some room in Rapture. Then you take bathysphere and go up to the lighthouse. What was the transition between being on the airship and being in Rapture!

P.P.S. Love this kind of discussions! It's been YEARS since I enjoyed game like this.

#32 Edited by Ghosts45 (2 posts) -

@runcrash: I like it. Very good. I almost had it, but you cleaned up my version nicely.

I don't think he knew that he sold Anna to himself from other dimension.

Luteces. What "mistake" are you talking about? How did Luteces hire Booker? At the start he was very much "get the girl and wipe away the debt". He had no idea that Elizabeth=Anna, that he was trying to save his own daughter. What was the motivation for Luteces? Were Luteces trying to prevent the war? Or just undo the time loop? Why didn't Luteces themselves kill Booker during baptism then? Did they want to leave it up to Elizabeth and Booker?

Where did it say that burning New York takes place in 1984? Just curious, didn't notice that. Why did she bring Booker here, at that moment and not earlier? Would you agree with me that once she saw New York burning she started having doubts, regrets and decided to change? Why was the message so unnecessarily enigmatic with a drawing of a cage, instead of just saying in plain English - play notes C, A, G, E to control songbird?

The remark to previous games. I like the way it sounds with constants of a man, a lighthouse and a city. I really like it. Revisiting Rupture, its lighthouse and bathysphere was kinda cool. But it doesn't make sense to me. Now, I only played the original Bioshock and haven't touched the second one (I read about it) . I don't see the clear one-to-one correlation between characters ... there is no Elizabeth, there is no Comstock.

I mean Jack and Andrew Ryan are certainly not the same person and sure there are little sisters, but there is no "one true" Elizabeth. It takes place in a different time too. Yeah, Liz mentions variables and the time of the events I guess is up to a change, the location being different - it can happen in any city. But overall story should be the same, right? I also feel like it should be linked to a tear, a fork, a deciding point in time and for all Bioshocks it looks like the lighthouse is this point. I don't see why. Shouldn't it be baptism? Ignoring this Rapture bit I am very close to understanding the whole thing.

P.S. Somebody remind me what happens after big battle on the airship when Songbird helps you? The next thing I remember is Songbird drowning as you watch him from inside of some room in Rapture. Then you take bathysphere and go up to the lighthouse. What was the transition between being on the airship and being in Rapture!

P.P.S. Love this kind of discussions! It's been YEARS since I enjoyed game like this.

This is directed at the first P.S., Elizabeth opened up a tear that ended up in Rapture, then when it solidfied, Songbird was on the other side.

#33 Posted by Wampa1 (745 posts) -

@pudge: If by "silly" you mean what will clearly be the plot to the next Bioshock game. In which a cat builds a city exclusively for cats of a certain breeding due to it's own racist beliefs before it falls apart to civil war and it's genetically engineer time traveling kitten goes back in time (then forward) to kill it.

#34 Posted by Pudge (923 posts) -

@khazidhea: If we're comparing characters, Liz would be a Little Sister right? And Songbird is the Big Daddy. Not that I think that all the possible Shock storylines taking place in those alternate dimensions line up so nicely, but still.

#35 Posted by Marlowefire (155 posts) -

I have seen the post credits part on YouTube and I have replayed the final moments twice now but in my game it never gives me the post credits part. Just goes to the credits and when I hit a button shows the infinite logo and back to the main menu .... Weird

So when I went to bed I didn't have any of these"is the timeline reset or what feelings"

I assume my picking of the bird medallion not the cage medallion had nothing tondo with this but it's still fits with my choices in the game so I like it.

#36 Posted by Pudge (923 posts) -

Does the Bird vs Cage medallion choice actually do anything? I assumed that it would factor into the note that Liz gave you from the future since I picked the Cage, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

#37 Edited by TrulyAlive (909 posts) -

@pudge:

My guess is that they both hold significance (The cage=the tower, the bird= the GIANT FUCKING BIOMECHANICAL MONSTROSITY TRYING TO KILL YOU...or Elizabeth herself, I guess...) and it's sort of like a psyche test: doesn't really tell you anything, but makes you think about your perception of the situation and the themes for a moment.

I went with the cage because a) fucking duh, and b) I just think it looked more like something a human being would wear. It has more character for a clasp than a bird.

#38 Posted by Pudge (923 posts) -

@trulyalive: Hmm. I was hoping it would do more than that as I played. I thought they were going to do something like the ending of BioShock 2 with all the choices, with your example affecting how Liz turned out. Not a major bummer, just seems odd to have those moments in there if they serve no story purpose.

#39 Posted by MC_Hify (352 posts) -

I don't think he knew that he sold Anna to himself from other dimension.

It's never clear what he knew in his original time line because his mind creates new memories when he is pulled into Comstock's timeline. In the flashbacks he did see Comstock and Lutece go through the tear with Anna and he might have recognized himself in his timeline. Ultimately we never find out what happened to him after he gave Anna away except that he brands himself with her initials.

Luteces. What "mistake" are you talking about? How did Luteces hire Booker? At the start he was very much "get the girl and wipe away the debt". He had no idea that Elizabeth=Anna, that he was trying to save his own daughter. What was the motivation for Luteces? Were Luteces trying to prevent the war? Or just undo the time loop? Why didn't Luteces themselves kill Booker during baptism then? Did they want to leave it up to Elizabeth and Booker?

The mistake of building Columbia, the mistake of helping Comstock, the mistake of taking Elizabeth. At the start his mind is creating new false memories to reconcile with the new timeline. All he remembers about Elizabeth is everything that Lutece gave him in the box. There may have been a line from Lutece saying that they offered him a chance to "get the girl and wipe away the debt" with the meaning of get back his Elizabeth and wipe away the debt he owes her for giving her up.

Where did it say that burning New York takes place in 1984? Just curious, didn't notice that. Why did she bring Booker here, at that moment and not earlier? Would you agree with me that once she saw New York burning she started having doubts, regrets and decided to change? Why was the message so unnecessarily enigmatic with a drawing of a cage, instead of just saying in plain English - play notes C, A, G, E to control songbird?

There was a billboard in New York that said 1984. She brought Booker there to save herself and the world to give him the information to control the songbird. Yes she eventually did change her mind after she saw the destruction. She brought him back at that moment because she said that her leash had been undone and that was when she could. The message was presented that way for artistic reasons I guess, the point came across.

The remark to previous games. I like the way it sounds with constants of a man, a lighthouse and a city. I really like it. Revisiting Rupture, its lighthouse and bathysphere was kinda cool. But it doesn't make sense to me. Now, I only played the original Bioshock and haven't touched the second one (I read about it) . I don't see the clear one-to-one correlation between characters ... there is no Elizabeth, there is no Comstock.

I mean Jack and Andrew Ryan are certainly not the same person and sure there are little sisters, but there is no "one true" Elizabeth. It takes place in a different time too. Yeah, Liz mentions variables and the time of the events I guess is up to a change, the location being different - it can happen in any city. But overall story should be the same, right? I also feel like it should be linked to a tear, a fork, a deciding point in time and for all Bioshocks it looks like the lighthouse is this point. I don't see why. Shouldn't it be baptism? Ignoring this Rapture bit I am very close to understanding the whole thing.

It doesn't have to be a one to one connection, just some form of the same things. Comstock is kind of like Ryan, Elizabeth is kind of like the little sisters, Booker is kind of like Jack, Lutece is kind of like Tenenbaum, Columbia is kind of like Rapture, and the Songbird is kind of like Big Daddies. Rapture and Columbia are two similar things happening. A man comes to a wonderous city(that he has a connection to but doesn't know it) through a lighthouse ruled by extremist ideology under a powerful dictator that is using powerful technology that is taken from young girl(s) which are protected by some kind of twisted machine creations. There is no "one true Elizabeth" but there is one that realized her full potential and wasn't brainwashed.

P.S. Somebody remind me what happens after big battle on the airship when Songbird helps you? The next thing I remember is Songbird drowning as you watch him from inside of some room in Rapture. Then you take bathysphere and go up to the lighthouse. What was the transition between being on the airship and being in Rapture!

I believe she tells the Songbird to finish destroying the siphon which lets her access her full power. She then opens up a tear to Rapture to take her, Booker, and the songbird there. The songbird is crushed by the pressure.

Online
#40 Posted by TrulyAlive (909 posts) -

@pudge: Ehhh, I don't know man. In regards to specific plot points? Yeah, it doesn't make a bit of difference.
Story purpose is something else entirely. Emotional arcs and character perspectives and motivations can easily fall under the broad scope of 'Story purpose'.
It's like The Walking Dead game by Telltale: You make choices that in regards to specific plot points, don't matter, and the game will undoubtedly end the same way for everyone. The choices that are made, though, ultimately endear each player to their own specific game and the choices that are involved.
I'm not saying that BI did this anywhere near as well as TWD (or even B1) but I like to think that the choices, few as they were, had meaning.

#41 Posted by JJOR64 (19070 posts) -

Just finished the game. That ending.

#42 Edited by Wuddel (2100 posts) -

Well, its not the first time games explore the multiverse-theory. It not really makes sense that all the Elizabeths dissappear in the final shot. Only one should disappear. Well I hope for the DLC.

I guess there are no multiple endings huh?

#43 Posted by realph (263 posts) -

@runcrash +1 I think you've got it all there. Summed it up very nicely!

@Pudge Hopefully the insignificance of choices was to throw you off the scent and final twist. Like Ryan said, these game is fucking with your preconceptions from the off.

#44 Posted by Khazidhea (5 posts) -

@runcrash, thanks again!

At the start of the game there are some notes saying "bring us the girl and wipe away the debt" as well as some dead guy on a chair. Also, it still feels like Lutece could've fixed the problem all by him\herself without involving Booker. But hey we needed a premise and maybe since he somehow died and experimented with all that time travel they can't directly affect things or something like this?

I get the kinda-connection. But I can't see one Elizabeth being linked to many little sisters and was there a little sister that her full potential and wasn't brainwashed? Are you talking about the one from Bioshock 2?

The paradox is created by baptism and Comstock and Booker being the same person, which doesn't happen in Rapture? Eh I guess they want it to be vague. But then the lighthouse is the connection ... which like it's the weakest point it can be done anywhere, not just lighthouse. I guess lighthouse is a tear? Maybe I just want to much structure and should just leave it be.

#46 Posted by thebunnyhunter (1482 posts) -

Did it ever explain the part where there was a time delay after the Songbird takes back Elizabeth? That's the only part that has me left hanging still.

#47 Edited by Ravenlight (8011 posts) -

Just finished Infinite and I'm freaking out a little. Hold me.

#48 Edited by sterbacblu (231 posts) -

Soooo question about choosing a broach for Elizabeth. I chose the bird. This seems to have no impact whatsoever on anything, however after watching the ending twice more, I noticed that during the second time you're on the boat going to the lighthouse, her broach is suddenly the cage, yet I hadn't seen this change at all during any other moments. Think anything is up with this or just a bug?

For the folks that are looking for the connections to Rapture, like Elizabeth and the Little Sisters, Songbird and Big Daddies, etc., it made way more sense when I watched the ending again. When they are leaving Rapture, all the lighthouses are only Rapture lighthouses. Elizabeth explains that there are infinite worlds, but all similar, and always a lighthouse, a man, and a city. When they walk through the door there, the next area has only Columbia lighthouses. Only when she refers to the infinite Columbias does she say there are multiple versions of them.

Did it ever explain the part where there was a time delay after the Songbird takes back Elizabeth? That's the only part that has me left hanging still.

It's just one of those time travel tropes. Elizabeth was able to open a tear for Booker, but what was minutes to him was months for Elizabeth.

Also, I can't be the only one who, every time they heard the name Booker, a voice in his head said "Can you dig it...sucka!?"

#49 Posted by ArbitraryWater (12123 posts) -

Just finished the game and... huh. Wow. That's probably one of the more batshit crazy endings I've seen, on par (if not superior to) Dragon's Dogma in sheer audacity. I admit, it took me looking through this thread to figure out the specifics, but still very impressed. If I have a personal issue with this ending, it's that it retcons the entire game you just went through, but I appreciate how it all starts going off the rails once you open that first tear.

I guess I still probably like the original Bioshock better, but as far as GOTY contenders are concerned, I think we already have a pretty strong one. It won't be my GOTY, but I'd be fine if it was the internet's.

#50 Edited by Thur (4 posts) -

For the next say 19 years Booker goes through depression, and through his stupor engraves the initials AD (Anna Dewitt) onto his hand to remind/punish himself for what's he's done. The Lutece's both travel back in time after the exchange of Anna/Elizabeth (but before their deaths I believe) and guide a now damaged Booker to the lighthouse to "Bring us the girl and wipe away the debt". I'm not sure why they do this, some help here would be appreciated.

I'm not sure if this has been answered yet, apologizes if I'm repeating anyone.

At the start of the game the Lutece's mention this all being just a 'thought experiment'. I believe that they are sending Timeline B Booker to Columbia simply to see the results of it, they are, quite simply, just messing around with dimensions to see an outcome. Oh and well, they may want a bit of revenge as well.