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#1 Posted by Anjon (112 posts) -

I was going to make a huge salty thread on glaring plotholes, but then I thought "Actually, there's no way the devs didn't think about these. They're probably hard at work making DLC to fill those in." So instead I'd like to make a huge sweet thread on things we'd like to see addressed in a DLC supplement or something. With a $20 season pass, surely we're getting something besides gear and weapon skins, right? This turns my glaring plothole-induced rage into lighthearted hope for the future! So, here're some things I hope they address somewhere down the line. I'd love to hear some other ideas!

1. With Booker constantly caught in the loop caused by the Lucetes, one of them has to escape it somehow and then become Comstock. How does he do that? Do the Lucetes bring him out and thus undo Elizabeth's murder-suicide plot?

2. That thread title isn't a typo! I want to know more about Constance, the little girl from some of the voxophone recordings. I have a theory that she has the ability to alter time and space similar to Elizabeth. She might actually be another Elizabeth. She mentions she wants to meet Liz because she believe they have something special in common with eachother. Later in the game, she says "I'm sorry about your mom being dead. I believe she's very much better than my own." or something to that affect. She then indicates that she knows more about Elizabeth's tower than pretty much anyone else.

3. Elizabeth says she inherited her power from Lady Comstock, who remains unnamed throughout the game. At first I thought she was just another Elizabeth, which might still be the case, but I think it's more likely that she's Booker's wife who died in his timeline shortly after Elizabeth was born. I'm guessing Comstock found a timeline where she wasn't dead and took her out of it, but she was sterile, possibly from the jump. In any case, she's a time-traveling space ghost, and that'd probably make an interesting subplot.

4. Why exactly did the Lucetes want to rescue Elizabeth from Comstock in the first place? I remember a voxophone hinting that the male Lucete didn't want to and tried to blackmail the female Lucete into canceling the plan, but why did the female Lucete want to do it? It didn't seem like revenge for Comstock trying to murder them, and it didn't seem like the Lucetes cared if one version of New York was destroyed. Why do beings who've essentially achieved omniscience and exist in all time and space simultaneously care about these handful of timelines?

5. Is the Songbird an alternate universe version of Booker who was captured and turned into an automaton? On the instruction card, it shows an image of Comstock's brain as a machine, so I thought that was pretty obvious. That'd be a pretty interesting scenario.

6. This is my personal best theory as to what first DLC campaign will center around. Booker clearly thought that by killing Comstock, he would give Elizabeth a better life... yet he essentially killed her reeeeally hard. I imagine a multi-dimensional obliteration is about as dead as you can possibly be, and he clearly didn't expect that to happen (probably because he's a moron). I'm predicting that whatever DLC comes out is going to feature Lucetes bringing him out of a loop and trying to save Elizabeth.

7. Honorable Mentions: something something Bioshock, something something Andrew Ryan. I'm hoping there isn't anything related to the original Bioshock but if fans request it, it'll probably happen...

8. Honorable Mentions: Some kind of DLC campaign or mini-game that somehow involves Elizabeth throwing coins at us constantly. Sometimes through walls.

#2 Posted by coakroach (2488 posts) -

If they do story DLC I wonder if we'll see anything regarding Comstocks 'archangel'.

Surely he didn't go crazy enough to want to wipe out the human race by combining PTSD with a baptism... right?

#3 Posted by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

If they do story DLC I wonder if we'll see anything regarding Comstocks 'archangel'.

Surely he didn't go crazy enough to want to wipe out the human race by combining PTSD with a baptism... right?

That is an incredibly good thought and point. I would love to learn more about the archangel (I suspect it's a shard of Elizabeth who enjoys the destruction she wrought / never had to be brain washed).

I don't agree with many of @anjon's points as I interpreted the time travel way differently (and I'm too tired to post the differences and my responses as much of it is covered in the postulations of the spoiler thread) - BUT, Constance is indeed another character I'd like to hear more about, as I caught those oddities too.

#4 Posted by golguin (3852 posts) -

@coakroach said:

If they do story DLC I wonder if we'll see anything regarding Comstocks 'archangel'.

Surely he didn't go crazy enough to want to wipe out the human race by combining PTSD with a baptism... right?

That is an incredibly good thought and point. I would love to learn more about the archangel (I suspect it's a shard of Elizabeth who enjoys the destruction she wrought / never had to be brain washed).

I don't agree with many of @anjon's points as I interpreted the time travel way differently (and I'm too tired to post the differences and my responses as much of it is covered in the postulations of the spoiler thread) - BUT, Constance is indeed another character I'd like to hear more about, as I caught those oddities too.

There isn't any time travel in the game. The game uses the multiverse idea, which in practice might look like time travel, but it's pretty different. There is no time travel loop in the game. What appears to be a loop is simply alternate realities playing out in similar fashions with Comstock becoming a thing. The Twins were trying to find a way to arrive at a reality where everything was placed in the "proper" order according to their own perspective. There is no correct version of the universe as every possible iteration is it's won reality. The world of Rapture was one of an "infinite" number of possibilities for "Bioshock".

That being said I would like to see fun alternate realities.

#5 Posted by paulwade1984 (477 posts) -

Lady Comstock is just a normal lady. Merely some form of figurehead. Comstock had no issues killing her to further his own power agenda. She is not Elizabeth's mother/bookers sex partner. Elizabeth's power is some form of cross dimensional side effect of her being ripped from her own timeline/dimension.

That theory of songbird being an alternate booker is pretty bad ass. I like that a lot.

#6 Posted by rebgav (1429 posts) -

@anjon said:

1. With Booker constantly caught in the loop caused by the Lucetes, one of them has to escape it somehow and then become Comstock. How does he do that? Do the Lucetes bring him out and thus undo Elizabeth's murder-suicide plot?

2. That thread title isn't a typo! I want to know more about Constance, the little girl from some of the voxophone recordings. I have a theory that she has the ability to alter time and space similar to Elizabeth. She might actually be another Elizabeth. She mentions she wants to meet Liz because she believe they have something special in common with eachother. Later in the game, she says "I'm sorry about your mom being dead. I believe she's very much better than my own." or something to that affect. She then indicates that she knows more about Elizabeth's tower than pretty much anyone else.

3. Elizabeth says she inherited her power from Lady Comstock, who remains unnamed throughout the game. At first I thought she was just another Elizabeth, which might still be the case, but I think it's more likely that she's Booker's wife who died in his timeline shortly after Elizabeth was born. I'm guessing Comstock found a timeline where she wasn't dead and took her out of it, but she was sterile, possibly from the jump. In any case, she's a time-traveling space ghost, and that'd probably make an interesting subplot.

4. Why exactly did the Lucetes want to rescue Elizabeth from Comstock in the first place? I remember a voxophone hinting that the male Lucete didn't want to and tried to blackmail the female Lucete into canceling the plan, but why did the female Lucete want to do it? It didn't seem like revenge for Comstock trying to murder them, and it didn't seem like the Lucetes cared if one version of New York was destroyed. Why do beings who've essentially achieved omniscience and exist in all time and space simultaneously care about these handful of timelines?

5. Is the Songbird an alternate universe version of Booker who was captured and turned into an automaton? On the instruction card, it shows an image of Comstock's brain as a machine, so I thought that was pretty obvious. That'd be a pretty interesting scenario.

6. This is my personal best theory as to what first DLC campaign will center around. Booker clearly thought that by killing Comstock, he would give Elizabeth a better life... yet he essentially killed her reeeeally hard. I imagine a multi-dimensional obliteration is about as dead as you can possibly be, and he clearly didn't expect that to happen (probably because he's a moron). I'm predicting that whatever DLC comes out is going to feature Lucetes bringing him out of a loop and trying to save Elizabeth.

7. Honorable Mentions: something something Bioshock, something something Andrew Ryan. I'm hoping there isn't anything related to the original Bioshock but if fans request it, it'll probably happen...

8. Honorable Mentions: Some kind of DLC campaign or mini-game that somehow involves Elizabeth throwing coins at us constantly. Sometimes through walls.

1. There is no loop, there's the transdimentional Lutece's and a million-million Bookers for them to play with.

2. Constance? Eh, I don't think she's remotely relevant to the actual story, just some color.

3. I don't even...

4. The Lutece's caused all (most) of this in the first place. Male Lutece thinks that they can redeem themselves by putting it right, Female Lutece has a more fatalistic outlook.

5. That image of "Comstock" is an explanation of how the Whistler works, not the workings of the Songbird.

6. Booker does save Elizabeth, by removing the Comstock tangent from their realities and letting her live a million-million lives as Anna... in poverty in turn-of-the-century New York. It's a mixed bag, I guess.

7. Nah.

8. But that was the main campaign :p It was all a coin tossing simulator.

I really hope this spoiler block works.

#7 Posted by Red12b (9081 posts) -

I don't think you understand the ending, most of what you have written have answers,

look up an ending explanation

#8 Posted by Anjon (112 posts) -
@golguin said:

@selfconfessedcynic said:

@coakroach said:

If they do story DLC I wonder if we'll see anything regarding Comstocks 'archangel'.

Surely he didn't go crazy enough to want to wipe out the human race by combining PTSD with a baptism... right?

That is an incredibly good thought and point. I would love to learn more about the archangel (I suspect it's a shard of Elizabeth who enjoys the destruction she wrought / never had to be brain washed).

I don't agree with many of @anjon's points as I interpreted the time travel way differently (and I'm too tired to post the differences and my responses as much of it is covered in the postulations of the spoiler thread) - BUT, Constance is indeed another character I'd like to hear more about, as I caught those oddities too.

There isn't any time travel in the game. The game uses the multiverse idea, which in practice might look like time travel, but it's pretty different. There is no time travel loop in the game. What appears to be a loop is simply alternate realities playing out in similar fashions with Comstock becoming a thing. The Twins were trying to find a way to arrive at a reality where everything was placed in the "proper" order according to their own perspective. There is no correct version of the universe as every possible iteration is it's won reality. The world of Rapture was one of an "infinite" number of possibilities for "Bioshock".

That being said I would like to see fun alternate realities.

I used to think there was no time travel involved either, except the Lucetes explicitly say that there is near the end of the game. While Booker was one of a million possibilities, they say that old Elizabeth is simply the future version of Elizabeth when Booker doesn't come back in time to save her from Comstock's brainwashing. "Why do you ask 'what' when the question is 'when'?" and such. It's unknown which Booker she sent for (either the one from her own time/world or another), but the Elizabeth she wanted that Booker to save is her in the past. Also time travel is the only scenario in which killing Booker would nullify Elizabeth's existence. If it was simply alternate realities, then Booker drowning wouldn't have phased out any Elizabeth, because that would have just been one possibility, not a direct link through time.

#9 Edited by DarkShaper (1322 posts) -

If they do story DLC I wonder if we'll see anything regarding Comstocks 'archangel'.

Surely he didn't go crazy enough to want to wipe out the human race by combining PTSD with a baptism... right?

I have just assumed that Lucete was the archangel.

#10 Edited by gaminghooligan (1424 posts) -

I know for a fact 1, 3(2 below), and 4(3 below) have very distinct in game answers so here it goes:

  1. Booker became Comstock in another reality where he excepted the baptism at the river and embraced christian ideals. He sought to build a better place and through the technology of the Luteces and the industry of Jeremiah Fink, backed by the muscle of his old war buddy (sorry forgot his name) the team builds Columbia together, most likely using some tech that Robert/Rosalind saw through their meddling in the dimensions/time. (I think)
  2. Elizabeth never inherited her powers, they're in fact a result of the "universe mixing its peas with its porridge." Her pinky finger was left in Booker's dimension, while she was taken to Comstocks. This means she exists in both worlds, giving her the ability to create tears and break from her own. Mix this with the tech the Luteces built and you have one powerful lady.
  3. The Luteces don't give much care as to whether Booker succeeds or not. It's an experiment. They hop around the different realities and see how each Booker fairs. Perhaps they want him to stop the destruction of NY that comes from this timeline, but that's neither here nor there. For example: Booker doesn't row. This is because it's still a controlled experiment. Letting Booker row may change the outcome and is a variable they may or may not have explored before and certainly don't want effecting this reality and this go at the experiment.

All that being said I hope you're right, I'm always down for more Bioshock story stuff.

#11 Posted by Sooty (8082 posts) -

I'd love some free weapons to be released because the boring guns are the biggest issue I have with the game.

#12 Posted by rebgav (1429 posts) -

The Luteces don't give much care as to whether Booker succeeds or not. It's an experiment. They hop around the different realities and see how each Booker fairs. Perhaps they want him to stop the destruction of NY that comes from this timeline, but that's neither here nor there. For example: Booker doesn't row. This is because it's still a controlled experiment. Letting Booker row may change the outcome and is a variable they may or may not have explored before and certainly don't want effecting this reality and this go at the experiment.

I think that they do care about the outcome, even if it's only from a scientific perspective. The male Lutece believes that they can effect change in a seemingly inevitable string of events while the female Lutece believes that what is was and shall be. There is also evidence that the male Lutece is striving for redemption for his part in the proceedings.

It is not that Booker doesn't row, it's that he never rows. It isn't a controlled experiment, they are observing the events and determining the constants and variables. They use that knowledge to attempt to influence events by giving Booker information on several occasions, so they are players in the "experiment" as much as they are observers.

#13 Posted by psylah (2162 posts) -

@sooty said:

I'd love some free weapons to be released because the boring guns are the biggest issue I have with the game.

Your left arm shoots literally everything but bullets....

#14 Posted by DetectiveSpecial (464 posts) -

I'd like some more information on what Songbird is/was. I was very underwhelmed with the amount of attention paid to that character, and the lack of time it was part of the game.

#15 Posted by Mcfart (1571 posts) -

@golguin said:

@selfconfessedcynic said:

@coakroach said:

If they do story DLC I wonder if we'll see anything regarding Comstocks 'archangel'.

Surely he didn't go crazy enough to want to wipe out the human race by combining PTSD with a baptism... right?

That is an incredibly good thought and point. I would love to learn more about the archangel (I suspect it's a shard of Elizabeth who enjoys the destruction she wrought / never had to be brain washed).

I don't agree with many of @anjon's points as I interpreted the time travel way differently (and I'm too tired to post the differences and my responses as much of it is covered in the postulations of the spoiler thread) - BUT, Constance is indeed another character I'd like to hear more about, as I caught those oddities too.

There isn't any time travel in the game. The game uses the multiverse idea, which in practice might look like time travel, but it's pretty different. There is no time travel loop in the game. What appears to be a loop is simply alternate realities playing out in similar fashions with Comstock becoming a thing. The Twins were trying to find a way to arrive at a reality where everything was placed in the "proper" order according to their own perspective. There is no correct version of the universe as every possible iteration is it's won reality. The world of Rapture was one of an "infinite" number of possibilities for "Bioshock".

That being said I would like to see fun alternate realities.

Exacly. They made it pretty clear. Think about this simple plot hole for example: if Comstock went BACK IN TIME to steal his daughter, that was stolen BY another version of him 20 years ago, how would that make any sense? No, it's Comstock stealing Anna from another version of himself, and that version of Booker either becomes Comstock or becomes the protaginist.

#16 Edited by BeachThunder (11728 posts) -

@psylah said:

@sooty said:

I'd love some free weapons to be released because the boring guns are the biggest issue I have with the game.

Your left arm shoots literally everything but bullets....

Well, there's the one that takes enemy bullets and shoots them back at them...

Also, I want some unrelated Booker + Elizabeth lighthouse adventure. Maybe in space. Maybe involving Shodan.

#17 Posted by Sooty (8082 posts) -

@psylah said:

@sooty said:

I'd love some free weapons to be released because the boring guns are the biggest issue I have with the game.

Your left arm shoots literally everything but bullets....

Plasmids are a companion, the guns make up for the bulk of what you do in combat.

#18 Edited by gaminghooligan (1424 posts) -

@rebgav said:

@gaminghooligan said:

The Luteces don't give much care as to whether Booker succeeds or not. It's an experiment. They hop around the different realities and see how each Booker fairs. Perhaps they want him to stop the destruction of NY that comes from this timeline, but that's neither here nor there. For example: Booker doesn't row. This is because it's still a controlled experiment. Letting Booker row may change the outcome and is a variable they may or may not have explored before and certainly don't want effecting this reality and this go at the experiment.

I think that they do care about the outcome, even if it's only from a scientific perspective. The male Lutece believes that they can effect change in a seemingly inevitable string of events while the female Lutece believes that what is was and shall be. There is also evidence that the male Lutece is striving for redemption for his part in the proceedings.

It is not that Booker doesn't row, it's that he never rows. It isn't a controlled experiment, they are observing the events and determining the constants and variables. They use that knowledge to attempt to influence events by giving Booker information on several occasions, so they are players in the "experiment" as much as they are observers.

Good point. I need to ask though, the stuff about the male and female Lutece's contrasting beliefs, is that in an audiolog? I missed a lot more of them than I thought after looking at steam achievements. Could've been part of the three truths also, since my game wouldn't up the volume on the tears unless I was basically sticking Booker's face in them for some reason.

#19 Posted by Cykke (56 posts) -

Just..Like...No.

#20 Posted by rebgav (1429 posts) -

the stuff about the male and female Lutece's contrasting beliefs, is that in an audiolog? I missed a lot more of them than I thought after looking at steam achievements

Yep. Lutece's audiologs are spread around all over the place but I think it might be the last one you can find before boarding Comstock's airship. The female Lutece lays out their opposing views on the viability of attempting to rescue Elizabeth, with the female Lutece taking a fatalistic stance. I think that there are other allusions to disagreements between them in earlier audios but I'd have to go listen to them again to be sure.

#21 Posted by Chaser324 (6349 posts) -

There's a tremendous number (I suppose you could say an infinite number) of possibilities for DLC to further flesh out the world or explore alternate worlds and possibilities. My personal preference would be for some short stand-alone campaigns (ala Minerva's Den) that explore the world of Columbia from different perspectives. Having said that, I'm sorry OP, but I don't really agree with any of the points you listed. A lot of them aren't really plotholes or seem rather inconsequential to me.

Moderator
#22 Posted by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

@anjon said:
@golguin said:

There isn't any time travel in the game. The game uses the multiverse idea, which in practice might look like time travel, but it's pretty different. There is no time travel loop in the game. What appears to be a loop is simply alternate realities playing out in similar fashions with Comstock becoming a thing. The Twins were trying to find a way to arrive at a reality where everything was placed in the "proper" order according to their own perspective. There is no correct version of the universe as every possible iteration is it's won reality. The world of Rapture was one of an "infinite" number of possibilities for "Bioshock".

That being said I would like to see fun alternate realities.

I used to think there was no time travel involved either, except the Lucetes explicitly say that there is near the end of the game. While Booker was one of a million possibilities, they say that old Elizabeth is simply the future version of Elizabeth when Booker doesn't come back in time to save her from Comstock's brainwashing. "Why do you ask 'what' when the question is 'when'?" and such. It's unknown which Booker she sent for (either the one from her own time/world or another), but the Elizabeth she wanted that Booker to save is her in the past. Also time travel is the only scenario in which killing Booker would nullify Elizabeth's existence. If it was simply alternate realities, then Booker drowning wouldn't have phased out any Elizabeth, because that would have just been one possibility, not a direct link through time.

Here, we agree. There are a number of instances of Booker travelling through time, the final one of which (the baptism) having been highly implied to effect future events for all of the resulting universes.

One could argue that some shards of the multiverse are simply staggered through time (with some taking place a couple of years in the future and some in the past) and and they just jump across them perpendicularly from their own time streams - but to me, travelling to those shards is still a form of time travel.

#23 Edited by happymeowmeow (201 posts) -

DLC about the Songbird and the Arcangel would be my first guesses on what they would cover, both of those characters/plotpoints still remain mysterious.

The whole idea of multiverses lends itself very well to DLC, of course. It's hard to think of one reality I'd like them to explore with so many choices... but it is intriguing to think that the bio-mechanical tech could have been stolen by peeks into the System Shock reality...maybe something related to that...

#24 Posted by golguin (3852 posts) -

@anjon said:
@golguin said:

There isn't any time travel in the game. The game uses the multiverse idea, which in practice might look like time travel, but it's pretty different. There is no time travel loop in the game. What appears to be a loop is simply alternate realities playing out in similar fashions with Comstock becoming a thing. The Twins were trying to find a way to arrive at a reality where everything was placed in the "proper" order according to their own perspective. There is no correct version of the universe as every possible iteration is it's won reality. The world of Rapture was one of an "infinite" number of possibilities for "Bioshock".

That being said I would like to see fun alternate realities.

I used to think there was no time travel involved either, except the Lucetes explicitly say that there is near the end of the game. While Booker was one of a million possibilities, they say that old Elizabeth is simply the future version of Elizabeth when Booker doesn't come back in time to save her from Comstock's brainwashing. "Why do you ask 'what' when the question is 'when'?" and such. It's unknown which Booker she sent for (either the one from her own time/world or another), but the Elizabeth she wanted that Booker to save is her in the past. Also time travel is the only scenario in which killing Booker would nullify Elizabeth's existence. If it was simply alternate realities, then Booker drowning wouldn't have phased out any Elizabeth, because that would have just been one possibility, not a direct link through time.

Here, we agree. There are a number of instances of Booker travelling through time, the final one of which (the baptism) having been highly implied to effect future events for all of the resulting universes.

One could argue that some shards of the multiverse are simply staggered through time (with some taking place a couple of years in the future and some in the past) and and they just jump across them perpendicularly from their own time streams - but to me, travelling to those shards is still a form of time travel.

You can consider the multiverse hopping to be a form of time travel, but that doesn't make it time travel. It's literally jumping through different realities with different variables. Time travel creates paradoxes as the guy above mentioned. The multiverse doesn't have that problem.

#25 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -
@golguin said:

@selfconfessedcynic said:

@anjon said:
@golguin said:

There isn't any time travel in the game. The game uses the multiverse idea, which in practice might look like time travel, but it's pretty different. There is no time travel loop in the game. What appears to be a loop is simply alternate realities playing out in similar fashions with Comstock becoming a thing. The Twins were trying to find a way to arrive at a reality where everything was placed in the "proper" order according to their own perspective. There is no correct version of the universe as every possible iteration is it's won reality. The world of Rapture was one of an "infinite" number of possibilities for "Bioshock".

That being said I would like to see fun alternate realities.

I used to think there was no time travel involved either, except the Lucetes explicitly say that there is near the end of the game. While Booker was one of a million possibilities, they say that old Elizabeth is simply the future version of Elizabeth when Booker doesn't come back in time to save her from Comstock's brainwashing. "Why do you ask 'what' when the question is 'when'?" and such. It's unknown which Booker she sent for (either the one from her own time/world or another), but the Elizabeth she wanted that Booker to save is her in the past. Also time travel is the only scenario in which killing Booker would nullify Elizabeth's existence. If it was simply alternate realities, then Booker drowning wouldn't have phased out any Elizabeth, because that would have just been one possibility, not a direct link through time.

Here, we agree. There are a number of instances of Booker travelling through time, the final one of which (the baptism) having been highly implied to effect future events for all of the resulting universes.

One could argue that some shards of the multiverse are simply staggered through time (with some taking place a couple of years in the future and some in the past) and and they just jump across them perpendicularly from their own time streams - but to me, travelling to those shards is still a form of time travel.

You can consider the multiverse hopping to be a form of time travel, but that doesn't make it time travel. It's literally jumping through different realities with different variables. Time travel creates paradoxes as the guy above mentioned. The multiverse doesn't have that problem.

Now we're just getting into semantics - though I will state that I disagree with your original statement that all the twins were doing was trying to find a specific universe where things happened to go the way the wanted. I believe they and Elizabeth were actually trying to change the results of all the resultant universes which spawned from Booker's baptism by means of time travel. ie, I do not believe they only travel perpendicular to time across universes.

That specific differentiation in our interpretations perhaps goes a way to showing how differently we viewed the entirety of the ending - *shrug*.

#26 Posted by StarvingGamer (8043 posts) -

1. At the junction point where Booker either A) is baptized and becomes Comstock B) is not baptized and goes on to have Anna, the dimensions split. Every Lutece comes from a dimension on the A path and every Booker comes from a dimension on the B path. This is why the only way to break the cycle is to prevent the dimensional split from ever happening.

3. Lady Comstock wasn't sterile, Comstock himself was.

6. No Elizabeths "died" per se. The Booker that died at the end was the one headed down dimension A, the one that would eventually become Comstock and become sterile. This freed up all the Bookers headed down the dimension B path, now the only path, to live their lives with Anna without interference from Lutece. Thus Anna would never be kidnapped by Comstock and never become Elizabeth, meaning Elizabeth never exists. The Elizabeths disappear, but their soul remains as Anna.

#27 Posted by golguin (3852 posts) -

@golguin said:

@selfconfessedcynic said:

@anjon said:
@golguin said:

There isn't any time travel in the game. The game uses the multiverse idea, which in practice might look like time travel, but it's pretty different. There is no time travel loop in the game. What appears to be a loop is simply alternate realities playing out in similar fashions with Comstock becoming a thing. The Twins were trying to find a way to arrive at a reality where everything was placed in the "proper" order according to their own perspective. There is no correct version of the universe as every possible iteration is it's won reality. The world of Rapture was one of an "infinite" number of possibilities for "Bioshock".

That being said I would like to see fun alternate realities.

I used to think there was no time travel involved either, except the Lucetes explicitly say that there is near the end of the game. While Booker was one of a million possibilities, they say that old Elizabeth is simply the future version of Elizabeth when Booker doesn't come back in time to save her from Comstock's brainwashing. "Why do you ask 'what' when the question is 'when'?" and such. It's unknown which Booker she sent for (either the one from her own time/world or another), but the Elizabeth she wanted that Booker to save is her in the past. Also time travel is the only scenario in which killing Booker would nullify Elizabeth's existence. If it was simply alternate realities, then Booker drowning wouldn't have phased out any Elizabeth, because that would have just been one possibility, not a direct link through time.

Here, we agree. There are a number of instances of Booker travelling through time, the final one of which (the baptism) having been highly implied to effect future events for all of the resulting universes.

One could argue that some shards of the multiverse are simply staggered through time (with some taking place a couple of years in the future and some in the past) and and they just jump across them perpendicularly from their own time streams - but to me, travelling to those shards is still a form of time travel.

You can consider the multiverse hopping to be a form of time travel, but that doesn't make it time travel. It's literally jumping through different realities with different variables. Time travel creates paradoxes as the guy above mentioned. The multiverse doesn't have that problem.

Now we're just getting into semantics - though I will state that I disagree with your original statement that all the twins were doing was trying to find a specific universe where things happened to go the way the wanted. I believe they and Elizabeth were actually trying to change the results of all the resultant universes which spawned from Booker's baptism by means of time travel. ie, I do not believe they only travel perpendicular to time across universes.

That specific differentiation in our interpretations perhaps goes a way to showing how differently we viewed the entirety of the ending - *shrug*.

The thing is that "time" as we understand it doesn't really exist. When we notice the passage of "time" what we are actually talking about is changes in the world around us. Things break down and we call that process the arrow of time. The Twins try to make that idea clear with the death of Chen Lin and the comparison to Schrodinger's Cat. Lived, Died, will die, or has died it doesn't matter. What matters is your perspective of the event. He is both alive and dead and it is through observation that the universe decides which state he is in. This is literally the stuff of quantum mechanics. The twins were able to communicate through realities through quantum entanglement. They are able to exist everywhere until observed, which is why they are able to keep appearing right in front.

This isn't semantics. It's literally the game telling you we are dealing with a multiverse.

#28 Posted by Dagbiker (6939 posts) -

I love games like this, because i love thinking of time, the effects of time, and the way we process information.

Following whos daughter Elizibath was kind of hard for me too. But Elizabeth is Bookers kid.

I think learning the Lucetes's motives is better done in a sequel just because there seems to be more you could do in a sequel with them, and their story. They seem like they could be very deep characters Having said that, with no Chromwel no one sabotages their experiment, sending them into the multiverse.

Also spoilers:

Booker DeWit is Andrew Ryan

Honsetly, Im good with how it ended, But I also realize that In an Infinite multiverse, and in the fiction they have established, something can both be dead and alive.

#29 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

@golguin: Oh god, I'm not getting into a discussion on the internet about different hypotheses of how the universe works, especially if we're going to bring the much-misunderstood shrodinger's cat thought experiment into it.

Shall we agree to disagree?

#30 Edited by link326 (1 posts) -

there should just be a dlc where you can play after the end to figure more about the story

#31 Edited by Chaser324 (6349 posts) -

@link326 said:

there should just be a dlc where you can play after the end to figure more about the story

...and exactly who would you be playing as? And for that matter, when and where would you even be playing?

Moderator
#32 Edited by Dagbiker (6939 posts) -

Subjectivism and Objectivism.

You are looking at time Subjectively, from your point of view.

Notice how Elisabeth changed from being a subjective viewer to an objective viewer after Booker destroyed the tower. Essentially this game establishes that there is an infinite number of dimensions. It is possible to leave the dimension you are in. And, with in the game, it states many times, you can be "both alive and dead" ( I realize that schroders cat was a hypothesis about particle physics).

Essentially, this game might as well been a dream. It dose not devalue the game, because it was a great game, I liked it more then Bioshock, and I did not even play Bioshock. I liked this game because of the characters But the events in this game dont matter at all, to anyone, because they might as well never happen, or perhaps, they always happen, every single time.

#33 Posted by Pudge (869 posts) -

@anjon: Liz got her powers from being inside two dimensions at once when she lost her pinkie as a child. Her powers were the multiverse's way of attempting to correct that problem.

And yea, there is no time travel in this game. You can travel to a dimension at a different point in time, but that is not the same thing at all.

#34 Posted by golguin (3852 posts) -

@golguin: Oh god, I'm not getting into a discussion on the internet about different hypotheses of how the universe works, especially if we're going to bring the much-misunderstood shrodinger's cat thought experiment into it.

Shall we agree to disagree?

How is schrodinger's cat misunderstood? How are all the direct references to quantum mechanics in Bioshock Infinite not quantum mechanics? Did the Luteces not communicate through morse code by using quantum entanglement? Do the buildings not stay aloft because of the work Lutece did?

I don't understand the misunderstanding when the game keeps slapping you in the face with it.

#35 Posted by Pudge (869 posts) -

@golguin said:

@selfconfessedcynic said:

@golguin: Oh god, I'm not getting into a discussion on the internet about different hypotheses of how the universe works, especially if we're going to bring the much-misunderstood shrodinger's cat thought experiment into it.

Shall we agree to disagree?

How is schrodinger's cat misunderstood? How are all the direct references to quantum mechanics in Bioshock Infinite not quantum mechanics? Did the Luteces not communicate through morse code by using quantum entanglement? Do the buildings not stay aloft because of the work Lutece did?

I don't understand the misunderstanding when the game keeps slapping you in the face with it.

I don't understand his problem either, the Luteces say Lived, Living, Will Live at least a dozen times, there is no other way to take that.

#36 Edited by golguin (3852 posts) -

@pudge said:

@golguin said:

@selfconfessedcynic said:

@golguin: Oh god, I'm not getting into a discussion on the internet about different hypotheses of how the universe works, especially if we're going to bring the much-misunderstood shrodinger's cat thought experiment into it.

Shall we agree to disagree?

How is schrodinger's cat misunderstood? How are all the direct references to quantum mechanics in Bioshock Infinite not quantum mechanics? Did the Luteces not communicate through morse code by using quantum entanglement? Do the buildings not stay aloft because of the work Lutece did?

I don't understand the misunderstanding when the game keeps slapping you in the face with it.

I don't understand his problem either, the Luteces say Lived, Living, Will Live at least a dozen times, there is no other way to take that.

He also seems familiar with the idea so I don't get him. It's in your face throughout the game. I can understand people thinking "time travel" if they don't know about the multiverse, but he seems to know it and yet denies that is what the game is.

#37 Edited by Anjon (112 posts) -

@pudge said:

@anjon: Liz got her powers from being inside two dimensions at once when she lost her pinkie as a child. Her powers were the multiverse's way of attempting to correct that problem.

And yea, there is no time travel in this game. You can travel to a dimension at a different point in time, but that is not the same thing at all.

When Elizabeth meets Lady Comstock's "ghost" the second time around, she says that she inherited her powers from her. She says this after learning that Lady Comstock didn't actually give birth to her in the traditional sense, so I'm inclined to believe her when she mentions this. After all, in literature the audience is supposed to take a character's word as absolute truth unless explicitly stated otherwise.

Also, I don't see how traveling to a dimension at a different point in time is anywhere different from time travel. I suppose I'll pose this question though: if there's no time travel involved in any way, then why didn't Booker encounter alternate versions of himself during the final Baptism scenes near the end of the game? We see other Bookers and the other Elizabeths near the light houses, which are clearly other worlds. Liz herself says this. However, when they actually get to "the point" where everything is suppose to be relevant, there's no other Booker. I take this to be an example to one of Einstein's laws.

Two versions of the same person can't exist simultaneous during the same period in the case of time travel. If someone goes back in time, then the version of them that exists in the past gets displaced by the one coming from the future at an existential level. That's why Booker can see other Bookers in other worlds at the lighthouses, but he never exists in the same time as any other Booker. When he goes to the Baptism scenes at the end, he has displaced the Booker that was there before he arrived. This doesn't apply to Comstock because he went through the same transposition process as the Lucetes, essentially causes him to both exist and not exist in all time and space simultaneously. He's only ever there when he's observed to be, which he's consciously aware of.

Btw, I don't know if anyone remembers it, but there's an actual map of the universes explored in the game on a chalkboard in the lab near the end where you rescue Liz the last time. I couldn't read the textures myself, but it had a few paragraphs of summary along with a branching timeline. Anyone have a good image or transcription of it?

#38 Edited by BeachThunder (11728 posts) -

@pudge said:

@anjon: Liz got her powers from being inside two dimensions at once when she lost her pinkie as a child. Her powers were the multiverse's way of attempting to correct that problem.

And yea, there is no time travel in this game. You can travel to a dimension at a different point in time, but that is not the same thing at all.

I don't see why that wouldn't still be considered a type of time travel.

#39 Edited by Pudge (869 posts) -

@anjon said:

Also, I don't see how traveling to a dimension at a different point in time is anywhere different from time travel. I suppose I'll pose this question though: if there's no time travel involved in any way, then why didn't Booker encounter alternate versions of himself during the final Baptism scenes near the end of the game? We see other Bookers and the other Elizabeths near the light houses, which are clearly other worlds. Liz herself says this. However, when they actually get to "the point" where everything is suppose to be relevant, there's no other Booker. I take this to be an example to one of Einstein's laws.

He didn't encounter alternate versions of himself there because that's where all the alternate Columbias start. In that time and place there are no alternate Bookers yet, only the one about to choose whether to be baptized or not, thus setting off every event in both subsets of dimensions.

EDIT: Also, I reread your post, and you posit that Comstock has the same powers at the Luteces? That's insane. Comstock gained knowledge of the future by looking through tears that were created by Lutece and her machines, but he doesn't have the same all knowing omnipresence that the Luteces have. Otherwise he would have just showed up on the boat whenever the Luteces brought another DeWitt to the lighthouse and strangled him, and there would be another infinite loop.

#40 Edited by Pudge (869 posts) -

@pudge said:

@anjon: Liz got her powers from being inside two dimensions at once when she lost her pinkie as a child. Her powers were the multiverse's way of attempting to correct that problem.

And yea, there is no time travel in this game. You can travel to a dimension at a different point in time, but that is not the same thing at all.

I don't see why that wouldn't still be considered a type of time travel.

Because time travel is going backwards and forwards on the timeline. You never do that in this game.

If I traveled to an alternate dimension where it was 2023, I could meet myself from the future and it wouldn't cause a paradox, because I'm not meeting myself, I'm meeting an alternate version of myself from another dimension. If I took a DeLorean to 2023 and attempted to meet myself, I would cause a paradox that would destroy all space and time, or I would faint. Depending on the circumstances.

#41 Posted by golguin (3852 posts) -

@anjon said:

@pudge said:

@anjon: Liz got her powers from being inside two dimensions at once when she lost her pinkie as a child. Her powers were the multiverse's way of attempting to correct that problem.

And yea, there is no time travel in this game. You can travel to a dimension at a different point in time, but that is not the same thing at all.

When Elizabeth meets Lady Comstock's "ghost" the second time around, she says that she inherited her powers from her. She says this after learning that Lady Comstock didn't actually give birth to her in the traditional sense, so I'm inclined to believe her when she mentions this. After all, in literature the audience is supposed to take a character's word as absolute truth unless explicitly stated otherwise.

I don't remember what the "ghost" said and couldn't understand most of it anyway so I can't speak to what she said. I did clearly read the audio logs "peas and porridge" and see the final scene of the finger being cut off so I'll believe what Lutece (the expert) has to say on the matter. I mean, both Luteces have a strong enough grasp of the concept to hop through different realities 122 times and check for the variables and constants that they seek. They are the ones that made it possible for Elizabeth to have her powers because they got the reality hopping started. They were doing it after they "died" too.

Who would you believe?

#42 Posted by BeachThunder (11728 posts) -

@anjon said:


Btw, I don't know if anyone remembers it, but there's an actual map of the universes explored in the game on a chalkboard in the lab near the end where you rescue Liz the last time. I couldn't read the textures myself, but it had a few paragraphs of summary along with a branching timeline. Anyone have a good image or transcription of it?

Wait, you don't mean this do you? This is all I can think of, but it doesn't really seem legible...

#43 Posted by Anjon (112 posts) -

@anjon said:


Btw, I don't know if anyone remembers it, but there's an actual map of the universes explored in the game on a chalkboard in the lab near the end where you rescue Liz the last time. I couldn't read the textures myself, but it had a few paragraphs of summary along with a branching timeline. Anyone have a good image or transcription of it?

Wait, you don't mean this do you? This is all I can think of, but it doesn't really seem legible...

Yeah, this is the board I was talking about. I'm hoping that's actually handwritten text and not scribbles and doodles made for presentation. Either way, I can't make out anything on it and I couldn't while I was playing the game either, even with full resolution and "Ultra" settings. I'd like to think that with all of the other clever details in the game, this would actually be a legit clue as well.

#44 Edited by golguin (3852 posts) -

There is certainly some wave drawings, which I take to mean the dual nature of a sub atomic particle that can act like a particle or a wave depending on if it's being observed. It goes along with the theme of the game.

#45 Posted by Humanity (8874 posts) -

Anything involving time travel will have glaring plotholes. As long as it serves the story in a positive way thats the best thing you can get out of it. The movie Looper doesn't delve too much into the time travel dynamics which helps you concentrate on the plot much more than the intricacies of time travel which in the end makes it a much more enjoyable experience. I think Infinite did a good job of presenting the story in such a way that you "got it" but didn't think too hard about the mechanics of what you just got. Although to me the subtitle Infinite referred more to the infinite loop rather than as some have mentioned, infinite possibilities.

#46 Posted by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

@golguin said:

@pudge said:

@golguin said:

@selfconfessedcynic said:

@golguin: Oh god, I'm not getting into a discussion on the internet about different hypotheses of how the universe works, especially if we're going to bring the much-misunderstood shrodinger's cat thought experiment into it.

Shall we agree to disagree?

How is schrodinger's cat misunderstood? How are all the direct references to quantum mechanics in Bioshock Infinite not quantum mechanics? Did the Luteces not communicate through morse code by using quantum entanglement? Do the buildings not stay aloft because of the work Lutece did?

I don't understand the misunderstanding when the game keeps slapping you in the face with it.

I don't understand his problem either, the Luteces say Lived, Living, Will Live at least a dozen times, there is no other way to take that.

He also seems familiar with the idea so I don't get him. It's in your face throughout the game. I can understand people thinking "time travel" if they don't know about the multiverse, but he seems to know it and yet denies that is what the game is.

Sigh, to elaborate on my stance;

  • Shrodinger's cat is misunderstood because it is not a thought experiment which establishes the possibility of multiple universes and it especially does not establish that the cat is both alive and dead. I am not saying you are making this mistake, but that many people do and I hate talking about it. The reason for its existence is to illustrate how it is difficult to mesh our understanding of quantum superposition with more classical systems such as a binary state of being alive or dead.
  • The Many Worlds Interpretation is but one of many, and is meant to create an explanation of our maths. Both quantum physicists and quantum philosophers struggle to agree on anything.
  • Many share the stance that quantum mechanics and the many worlds interpretation is meant to bridge the gap between the macroscopic, observed world and what happens on a subatomic level.
  • More apt to the subject of this game, choices made by individuals are generally not thought to be the result of random collapses of quantum superposition, but rather the more classical system of an informed choice made from past experiences (which are fixed at a certain moment, as the past is a collection of post-collapsed states forming a classical system).
  • This makes it very difficult to draw lines between where the physics stops and where the quantum mechanics / magic begins in this game.
  • Linear time and the MWI are not mutually exclusive, nor is the idea of time travel.

As I said earlier, I do not find it impossible to suppose that when they cross between universes, they may also be crossing non-perpendicularly through time. If you disagree with that, fine.

#47 Posted by rebgav (1429 posts) -

@anjon said:

@beachthunder said:

@anjon said:


Btw, I don't know if anyone remembers it, but there's an actual map of the universes explored in the game on a chalkboard in the lab near the end where you rescue Liz the last time. I couldn't read the textures myself, but it had a few paragraphs of summary along with a branching timeline. Anyone have a good image or transcription of it?

Wait, you don't mean this do you? This is all I can think of, but it doesn't really seem legible...

Yeah, this is the board I was talking about. I'm hoping that's actually handwritten text and not scribbles and doodles made for presentation. Either way, I can't make out anything on it and I couldn't while I was playing the game either, even with full resolution and "Ultra" settings. I'd like to think that with all of the other clever details in the game, this would actually be a legit clue as well.

I think that the background scrawl is irrelevant, it's repeated on multiple boards throughout the game and seems to be made of a patchwork of diagrams, formulas and lists of names and events. You can see that the (I think) german phrase is repeated at least once in that very image and it's just a copypaste job.

#48 Posted by Anjon (112 posts) -

@rebgav said:

@anjon said:

@beachthunder said:

@anjon said:


Btw, I don't know if anyone remembers it, but there's an actual map of the universes explored in the game on a chalkboard in the lab near the end where you rescue Liz the last time. I couldn't read the textures myself, but it had a few paragraphs of summary along with a branching timeline. Anyone have a good image or transcription of it?

Wait, you don't mean this do you? This is all I can think of, but it doesn't really seem legible...

Yeah, this is the board I was talking about. I'm hoping that's actually handwritten text and not scribbles and doodles made for presentation. Either way, I can't make out anything on it and I couldn't while I was playing the game either, even with full resolution and "Ultra" settings. I'd like to think that with all of the other clever details in the game, this would actually be a legit clue as well.

I think that the background scrawl is irrelevant, it's repeated on multiple boards throughout the game and seems to be made of a patchwork of diagrams, formulas and lists of names and events. You can see that the (I think) german phrase is repeated at least once in that very image and it's just a copypaste job.

Well that's disappointing. I was really hoping it would mean something more.

#49 Edited by golguin (3852 posts) -

@golguin said:

@pudge said:

@golguin said:

@selfconfessedcynic said:

@golguin: Oh god, I'm not getting into a discussion on the internet about different hypotheses of how the universe works, especially if we're going to bring the much-misunderstood shrodinger's cat thought experiment into it.

Shall we agree to disagree?

How is schrodinger's cat misunderstood? How are all the direct references to quantum mechanics in Bioshock Infinite not quantum mechanics? Did the Luteces not communicate through morse code by using quantum entanglement? Do the buildings not stay aloft because of the work Lutece did?

I don't understand the misunderstanding when the game keeps slapping you in the face with it.

I don't understand his problem either, the Luteces say Lived, Living, Will Live at least a dozen times, there is no other way to take that.

He also seems familiar with the idea so I don't get him. It's in your face throughout the game. I can understand people thinking "time travel" if they don't know about the multiverse, but he seems to know it and yet denies that is what the game is.

Sigh, to elaborate on my stance;

  • Shrodinger's cat is misunderstood because it is not a thought experiment which establishes the possibility of multiple universes and it especially does not establish that the cat is both alive and dead. I am not saying you are making this mistake, but that many people do and I hate talking about it. The reason for its existence is to illustrate how it is difficult to mesh our understanding of quantum superposition with more classical systems such as a binary state of being alive or dead.
  • The Many Worlds Interpretation is but one of many, and is meant to create an explanation of our maths. Both quantum physicists and quantum philosophers struggle to agree on anything.
  • Many share the stance that quantum mechanics and the many worlds interpretation is meant to bridge the gap between the macroscopic, observed world and what happens on a subatomic level.
  • More apt to the subject of this game, choices made by individuals are generally not thought to be the result of random collapses of quantum superposition, but rather the more classical system of an informed choice made from past experiences (which are fixed at a certain moment, as the past is a collection of post-collapsed states forming a classical system).
  • This makes it very difficult to draw lines between where the physics stops and where the quantum mechanics / magic begins in this game.
  • Linear time and the MWI are not mutually exclusive, nor is the idea of time travel.

As I said earlier, I do not find it impossible to suppose that when they cross between universes, they may also be crossing non-perpendicularly through time. If you disagree with that, fine.

Your reasoning is sound, but the game is LITERALLY telling you what it is. The quote at the very start of the game states:

"The mind of the subject will desperately struggle to create memories where none exist..."
Barriers to Trans-Dimensional Travel

#50 Edited by selfconfessedcynic (2495 posts) -

@golguin said:

Your reasoning is sound, but the game is LITERALLY telling you what it is. The quote at the very start of the game states:

"The mind of the subject will desperately struggle to create memories where none exist..."

Barriers to Trans-Dimensional Travel

That line does not rule out a theory of time travel, nor do any of the others that I can find from my recordings list in game. None of the quotes you have given me do, either.

From my stance, Elizabeth and Booker's pursuit of killing Comstock leading to the baptism scene coupled with strong inferences that their act there influenced all future events and probabilities is stronger evidence to me. This evidence suggests that both time travel and cross dimensional travel takes place in this game.

To convince me, you'd have to construct an argument with evidence which supports the idea they only ever move perpendicularly with respect to time from the universe they are in before going through a tear to the universe after such.