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#1 Posted by DonutFever (3550 posts) -

There seems to be a lot of arguing going on over the "Best New Character" award. Do you feel as passionately about the other awards, and who/what do you think should have won?

#2 Posted by Dany (7887 posts) -

Brad really does not like anything to do with Deadly Premonition...which totally sucks because York is simply a great character

#3 Posted by Turambar (6709 posts) -

Well, I do feel the whole "best debut" category was pretty ill conceived in general, but no, nothing really got my blood up.
 
Also Morgan totally deserved the win while Bayonetta totally did not deserve to be on that list.  (This coming from someone who loved the game.)

#4 Posted by Dtat (1623 posts) -

I was a little annoyed with Jeff's loathing of Limbo, and I also think Mordin was far-and-away the best character.  
 
So I really agreed with the podcast's discussion on Best Character when it came to Mordin. That's why the story posted on the site is so perplexing. I think they all came to pretty solid agreement that Mordin was the best.  
 
I was cringing a lot hearing Jeff and Brad get more and more upset with each other to the point that it seemed like personal attacks. :/ 
I think the overall GOTY will actually be more civil because when all is said and done, they will pick a game that is fantastic, so they'll all end up happy with it. That's how it's been the last two years.

#5 Edited by Dany (7887 posts) -
@Turambar said:

" Well, I do feel the whole "best debut" category was pretty ill conceived in general, but no, nothing really got my blood up.  Also Morgan totally deserved the win while Bayonetta totally did not deserve to be on that list.  (This coming from someone who loved the game.) "

Totally agree. Best Debut was hampered down on buch of rules and crap about predecessors and originality and should have just been best new IP.
#6 Posted by Shirogane (3566 posts) -

I blame Brad and Ryan for not playing Darksiders with the Debut category argueing against that. Seriously, that game is a pretty damn good debut. First game from those developers too.
#7 Edited by Kjellm87 (1728 posts) -

  I haven't heard the podcast , but I doubt the awards will bother me since I see hundreds of different lists
 around the web everyday and I have my own .
 
With that said, Zack is the best character this year, hands down

#8 Posted by A_Cute_Squirtle (684 posts) -
@Dtat said:
" I was a little annoyed with Jeff's loathing of Limbo, and I also think Mordin was far-and-away the best character.   So I really agreed with the podcast's discussion on Best Character when it came to Mordin. That's why the story posted on the site is so perplexing. I think they all came to pretty solid agreement that Mordin was the best.   I was cringing a lot hearing Jeff and Brad get more and more upset with each other to the point that it seemed like personal attacks. :/ I think the overall GOTY will actually be more civil because when all is said and done, they will pick a game that is fantastic, so they'll all end up happy with it. That's how it's been the last two years. "
While I know it is their job and they've become adjusted to this process by now, I do have to agree that their bickering hurt me on the inside a little. Both seemed to act irrational toward the other more than a few times. 
#9 Posted by Jimbo (9796 posts) -
@Dtat said:
"I was cringing a lot hearing Jeff and Brad get more and more upset with each other to the point that it seemed like personal attacks..."
Fucks no, it's great to hear them having their own strong opinions about games and caring enough (and having time enough) to stand by it.  This is what makes the GOTY podcasts far and away the best content they do all year imo.  And they didn't get personal at all (they only do that about Ryan, and only when he has left the room).
 
@Dany said:
" @Turambar said:

" Well, I do feel the whole "best debut" category was pretty ill conceived in general, but no, nothing really got my blood up.  Also Morgan totally deserved the win while Bayonetta totally did not deserve to be on that list.  (This coming from someone who loved the game.) "

Totally agree. Best Debut was hampered down on buch of rules and crap about predecessors and originality and should have just been best new IP. "
Yeah no idea what that was about.  Everybody understands what 'Best New IP' means at this point - even they didn't know what 'Best Debut' meant.  I still don't.
#10 Posted by ThePickle (4160 posts) -

I really think Jeff has the most power in the debates. His whole thing with Limbo was just "I didn't like it" and his whole thing with Marston was "I didn't like Red Dead." He was able to make those debates go on way longer than they should have. 

#11 Posted by rjayb89 (7719 posts) -

Brad is such a pecker.

Online
#12 Posted by Sil3n7 (1178 posts) -

I agreed with Jeff on both arguments with Brad. York is a great character and Limbo is a yet another indie game with a "different" art style that people cling to out of a horribly misguided opinion that it will make them some sort of highbrow game connoisseur.

#13 Edited by Stephen_Von_Cloud (1530 posts) -
@HandsomeDevil said:

" I really think Jeff has the most power in the debates. His whole thing with Limbo was just "I didn't like it" and his whole thing with Marston was "I didn't like Red Dead." He was able to make those debates go on way longer than they should have.  "

Same way I thought about it.  Confusing too because those two games he seems to not like just to be cool in not liking it or something.  He doesn't really have much reasoning.  But whatever, not that big of a deal but Brad's opinions kind of got trampled on.
#14 Posted by Dtat (1623 posts) -
@Jimbo said:
" @Dtat said:
"I was cringing a lot hearing Jeff and Brad get more and more upset with each other to the point that it seemed like personal attacks..."
Fucks no, it's great to hear them having their own strong opinions about games and caring enough (and having time enough) to stand by it.  This is what makes the GOTY podcasts far and away the best content they do all year imo.  And they didn't get personal at all (they only do that about Ryan, and only when he has left the room).
Maybe not overtly personal. It was just kind of an uncomfortable sort of argument that really wasn't supported well on either side. I really enjoy their arguments most of the time, but it was just that both Jeff and Brad seemed to get a little too emotional to the point that neither one really had a good argument. Like Jeff just throwing out phrases like "yet another indie platformer with an art style," or that Super Meat Boy "does what Limbo does but better." Really Jeff? And then Brad constantly saying Jeff's opinion was "insanity". There was just this sort of unfriendly tension that was cringingly uncomfortable. 
#15 Posted by Dtat (1623 posts) -
@Stephen_Von_Cloud said:
" @HandsomeDevil said:

" I really think Jeff has the most power in the debates. His whole thing with Limbo was just "I didn't like it" and his whole thing with Marston was "I didn't like Red Dead." He was able to make those debates go on way longer than they should have.  "

Same way I thought about it.  Confusing too because those two games he seems to not like just to be cool in not liking it or something.  He doesn't really have much reasoning.  But whatever, not that big of a deal but Brad's opinions kind of got trampled on. "
I agree with both of you. Very well put.
#16 Posted by Zicdab (388 posts) -

Their disagreements seemed to be more about getting it down to three nominees rather than picking the winner.

#17 Edited by Make_Me_Mad (3043 posts) -

I thought that the Best New Character category came out perfectly.  Mordin, York, and Bayonetta are some of the most memorable characters introduced this year, and I have no problem with them taking the top spots.

Kind of sad that it's now devolved into people launching attacks at Bayonetta because Marston didn't make it in, especially since the majority of them seem to have never played Bayonetta whatsoever, and if they have, they never paid a damn bit of attention to anything but the scant moments she spends "getting naked".  They missed out on a really weird, really compelling story.

@Stephen_Von_Cloud said:

" @HandsomeDevil said:

" I really think Jeff has the most power in the debates. His whole thing with Limbo was just "I didn't like it" and his whole thing with Marston was "I didn't like Red Dead." He was able to make those debates go on way longer than they should have.  "

Same way I thought about it.  Confusing too because those two games he seems to not like just to be cool in not liking it or something.  He doesn't really have much reasoning.  But whatever, not that big of a deal but Brad's opinions kind of got trampled on. "
Now that's just silly.  He ranted about his reasons for not liking Limbo throughout the podcast discussion, and there have been myriad discussions about his distaste for Red Dead Redemption in the past.  Saying he hates them just to seem cool is sort of a dick thing to do.
#18 Edited by CptBedlam (4449 posts) -
@Dtat said:

" @Stephen_Von_Cloud said:

" @HandsomeDevil said:

" I really think Jeff has the most power in the debates. His whole thing with Limbo was just "I didn't like it" and his whole thing with Marston was "I didn't like Red Dead." He was able to make those debates go on way longer than they should have.  "

Same way I thought about it.  Confusing too because those two games he seems to not like just to be cool in not liking it or something.  He doesn't really have much reasoning.  But whatever, not that big of a deal but Brad's opinions kind of got trampled on. "
I agree with both of you. Very well put. "
I agree as well. 
 
With Jeff getting his wish all the time, RDR is guaranteed to not win a single category. Not that I'm really bothered because it doesn't change my opinion of this and other games but it's worth pointing this out.
 
Also, I thought I found it kinda baffling how they didn't even mention a few of the great songs in RDR or from other games and then pick a generic electro track that has only a neat sample going on. I can't really consider that a "song".
#19 Edited by Stephen_Von_Cloud (1530 posts) -
@Make_Me_Mad said:

" I thought that the Best New Character category came out perfectly.  Mordin, York, and Bayonetta are some of the most memorable characters introduced this year, and I have no problem with them taking the top spots.

Kind of sad that it's now devolved into people launching attacks at Bayonetta because Marston didn't make it in, especially since the majority of them seem to have never played Bayonetta whatsoever, and if they have, they never paid a damn bit of attention to anything but the scant moments she spends "getting naked".  They missed out on a really weird, really compelling story.

@Stephen_Von_Cloud

said:

" @HandsomeDevil said:

" I really think Jeff has the most power in the debates. His whole thing with Limbo was just "I didn't like it" and his whole thing with Marston was "I didn't like Red Dead." He was able to make those debates go on way longer than they should have.  "

Same way I thought about it.  Confusing too because those two games he seems to not like just to be cool in not liking it or something.  He doesn't really have much reasoning.  But whatever, not that big of a deal but Brad's opinions kind of got trampled on. "
Now that's just silly.  He ranted about his reasons for not liking Limbo throughout the podcast discussion, and there have been myriad discussions about his distaste for Red Dead Redemption in the past.  Saying he hates them just to seem cool is sort of a dick thing to do. "
I follow all the Bombcasts and site coverage and if you can tell me what he didn't like specifically about RDR I'll take back my words but he has never said anything specific.  He just doesn't like cowboys or something, idk.  The only thing I think I remember was him saying he didn't like the horse controls because he said they were hard to use and just about everyone else agrees they are very well done and gave you a lot of control, as do I.  And he really loves GTA IV so it's only more puzzling.  If he gives no reason it kind of seems like its just to go against popular opinion.  I don't have a better answer, that is for sure.   And if you go off other things he says about the game, like in regards to John Marston, notice he says John is a generic western hero, which is completely false and Brad and Vinny point that out.  It doesn't seem like he wants to like the game for some reason.
 
 Limbo he gave some reasoning for but like for example he said he got bored by the end with the puzzles/platforming which idk how you could because that game is constantly switching it up and leaving you to figure out how to handle things.   LIke Brad says that as well, that it stayed fresh throughout, and I don't know how you couldn't agree.   He doesn't have to like the game but just give better reasons.
 
Maybe he has some more reasoning on Limbo but it still seems irrational and his dislike of RDR really I can't figure out.
#20 Posted by Dtat (1623 posts) -
@CptBedlam said:
" @Dtat said:

" @Stephen_Von_Cloud said:

" @HandsomeDevil said:

" I really think Jeff has the most power in the debates. His whole thing with Limbo was just "I didn't like it" and his whole thing with Marston was "I didn't like Red Dead." He was able to make those debates go on way longer than they should have.  "

Same way I thought about it.  Confusing too because those two games he seems to not like just to be cool in not liking it or something.  He doesn't really have much reasoning.  But whatever, not that big of a deal but Brad's opinions kind of got trampled on. "
I agree with both of you. Very well put. "
I agree as well.   With Jeff getting his wish all the time, RDR is guaranteed to not win a single category. Not that I'm really bothered because it doesn't change my opinion of this and other games but it's worth pointing this out.  Also, I thought I found it kinda baffling how they didn't even mention a few of the great songs in RDR or from other games and then pick a generic electro track that has only a neat sample going on. I can't really consider that a "song". "
If Red Dead doesn't get at least second place in best SOUNDTRACK I'll be very surprised. I don't think any one song stands out in Red Dead, but its soundtrack on the whole is far and away the best imo.
#21 Edited by huntad (1930 posts) -

As always, I feel that Vinny is the main dude that I can understand where he's coming from. I did not like Dance Central or Limbo all that much, but I didn't hate them like Jeff and Brad did. I feel that Ryan was a bit tired.  
 
Also, I think Jeff's the reason that John Marston didn't win due to his pure hatred of Red Dead Redemption. He didn't really have any good reasons, and the rest of the crew really did counter his every tired argument.  
 
Honestly, I thought the awards were going to be kind of crazy, but this was more bickering and unending fighting than I expected. I really did get a headache after listening to these guys. It was just...kinda annoying to be honest. I think the personal GotY lists and a final GotY would be great. This style is just way too...well I've already used too many adjectives for one post.

#22 Posted by President_Barackbar (3448 posts) -
@Stephen_Von_Cloud:  Jeff's specific about Red Dead is that he hates Westerns.
#23 Posted by Make_Me_Mad (3043 posts) -
@Stephen_Von_Cloud said:
" @Make_Me_Mad said:
Now that's just silly.  He ranted about his reasons for not liking Limbo throughout the podcast discussion, and there have been myriad discussions about his distaste for Red Dead Redemption in the past.  Saying he hates them just to seem cool is sort of a dick thing to do. "
If you can tell me what he didn't like specifically about RDR I'll take back my words but he has never said anything specific.  He just doesn't like cowboys or something, idk.  ANd he really loves GTA IV so it's only more puzzling.  If he gives no reason it kind of seems like its just to go against popular opinion.  I don't have a better answer, that is for sure.   And if you go off other things he says about the game, like in regards to John Marston, notice he says John is a generic western hero, which is completely false and Brad and Vinny point that out.  It doesn't seem like he wants to like the game for some reason.   Limbo he gave some reasoning for but like for example he said he got bored by the end with the puzzles/platforming which idk how you could because that game is constantly switching it up and leaving you to figure out how to handle things.   LIke Brad says that as well, that it stayed fresh throughout, and I don't know how you couldn't agree.    Maybe he has some more reasoning on Limbo but it still seems irrational and his dislike of RDR really I can't figure out. "
As far as Limbo goes, I've played longer, better, more interesting puzzle games via Web browser for free.  It's a good game to be sure, but to put it as one of the best debuts of the year, I have to say it was a serious slap in the face of Darksiders.

And speaking solely from my experiences here, I think his liking Grand Theft Auto 4 probably had a lot to do with why he didn't get grabbed by RDR.  I enjoyed the (admittedly small) portion of the game that I played, but it's hard to go to that after you've played games that bring you a much more intense experience, for lack of a better word.  Jeff has voiced his dislike of the setting and time period in the past, and he has brought up the weapons as a sticking point, in that they are historical, and as such not nearly as satisfying or as powerful feeling as the weapons featured in a comparable game, like Grand Theft Auto IV.
I could see the same issue cropping up for him when it came Red Dead's problematic horse riding, which would, coming off of GTA IV, probably feel like a lot of work for a less engaging, much slower ride than you could get with a simple press of a button back in GTA.  You can get different looking horses that behave differently, move at different speeds, take different levels of damage, but it' never going to match up to the massive selection of incredibly varied vehicles that were easily obtainable in Rockstar's last game.  I think RDR was a lost cause from the start for Jeff because, as much as it makes sense given the setting for things to be taken down a notch, it's not going to match up to the experience offered by GTA IV.
#24 Edited by Stephen_Von_Cloud (1530 posts) -
@huntad said:

" As always, I feel that Vinny is the main dude that I can understand where he's coming from. I did not like Dance Central or Limbo all that much, but I didn't hate them like Jeff and Brad did. I feel that Ryan was a bit tired.   Also, I think Jeff's the reason that John Marston didn't win due to his pure hatred of Red Dead Redemption. He didn't really have any good reasons, and the rest of the crew really did counter his every tired argument.   Honestly, I thought the awards were going to be kind of crazy, but this was more bickering and unending fighting than I expected. I really did get a headache after listening to these guys. It was just...kinda annoying to be honest. I think the personal GotY lists and a final GotY would be great. This style is just way too...well I've already used too many adjectives for one post. "

Yeah I have to say I also did not enjoy listening to this first podcast at all.  Maybe that will change but it seems like maybe the guys should just make their own lists and awards?  Because their fighting and my annoyance and some of their dismissals of some games and characters worked together to make me not like listening to it at all.
 

@President_Barackbar

said:

" @Stephen_Von_Cloud:  Jeff's specific about Red Dead is that he hates Westerns. "


1) He hates what?  Horses?  The west?  Guys in cowboy hats?  The period of western expansion?  That is not specific.  Like how could you just say "I hate westerns" and you hate every western.  That is not a good reason.  Westerns are a setting and cover a huge range of genre offshoots and moods, from humorous, to dark, to realistic, to over the top, to spaghetti, and there are even foreign westerns.  To make the blanket statement "I hate westerns" is not a good reason.
 
2) Red Dead definitely has the western vibe in a lot of ways and obviously occurs in the period of western expansion but it also has a strong GTA-ish vibe in its characters and then there is a whole bit of it that's all its own.  While it occurs in the west, its not like it feels just like classic westerns.
 
 
If that is his reason then I feel only worse about Jeff's judgments because I don't understand how you could just say that without any reasoning.  Either way it isn't a "specific" reason like your saying it is.
#25 Posted by MetalGearSunny (6988 posts) -

Dear people in this thread, 
 
You're trying too hard. 
 
-Sunny

#26 Posted by Turtlemayor333 (510 posts) -
@Dany said:
" @Turambar said:

" Well, I do feel the whole "best debut" category was pretty ill conceived in general, but no, nothing really got my blood up.  Also Morgan totally deserved the win while Bayonetta totally did not deserve to be on that list.  (This coming from someone who loved the game.) "

Totally agree. Best Debut was hampered down on buch of rules and crap about predecessors and originality and should have just been best new IP. "
 
I love Brad. I honestly do. When he sang "Space Oddity" on the Big Live Live Show despite the streaming issues and everything that was going on - that was the exact moment I knew a subscription to Giant Bomb and Whiskey Media was in order. Even though I don't really care about Starcraft, I love hearing about his GSL adventures just because it's about the only thing he gets enthused about on the podcast. 
 
But all that said, I expected a lot more from him. The convolution with the debut category you're talking about was largely his fault. The argument that Super Meat Boy is a perfectly original debut while Darksiders is too derivative makes no sense at all. Jeff was still willing to compromise with all of that until Brad also insisted that he have his way with Limbo as well - when Dance Central is probably more deserving and true to the category. Then earlier of course you have the undue crapping on Deadly Premonition as a game - without any regard to the categories it was nominated for. "Well the game sucks so York is a bad character." That's an awful argument.
#27 Posted by Stephen_Von_Cloud (1530 posts) -
@Make_Me_Mad said:
" @Stephen_Von_Cloud said:
" @Make_Me_Mad said:
Now that's just silly.  He ranted about his reasons for not liking Limbo throughout the podcast discussion, and there have been myriad discussions about his distaste for Red Dead Redemption in the past.  Saying he hates them just to seem cool is sort of a dick thing to do. "
If you can tell me what he didn't like specifically about RDR I'll take back my words but he has never said anything specific.  He just doesn't like cowboys or something, idk.  ANd he really loves GTA IV so it's only more puzzling.  If he gives no reason it kind of seems like its just to go against popular opinion.  I don't have a better answer, that is for sure.   And if you go off other things he says about the game, like in regards to John Marston, notice he says John is a generic western hero, which is completely false and Brad and Vinny point that out.  It doesn't seem like he wants to like the game for some reason.   Limbo he gave some reasoning for but like for example he said he got bored by the end with the puzzles/platforming which idk how you could because that game is constantly switching it up and leaving you to figure out how to handle things.   LIke Brad says that as well, that it stayed fresh throughout, and I don't know how you couldn't agree.    Maybe he has some more reasoning on Limbo but it still seems irrational and his dislike of RDR really I can't figure out. "
As far as Limbo goes, I've played longer, better, more interesting puzzle games via Web browser for free.  It's a good game to be sure, but to put it as one of the best debuts of the year, I have to say it was a serious slap in the face of Darksiders.

And speaking solely from my experiences here, I think his liking Grand Theft Auto 4 probably had a lot to do with why he didn't get grabbed by RDR.  I enjoyed the (admittedly small) portion of the game that I played, but it's hard to go to that after you've played games that bring you a much more intense experience, for lack of a better word.  Jeff has voiced his dislike of the setting and time period in the past, and he has brought up the weapons as a sticking point, in that they are historical, and as such not nearly as satisfying or as powerful feeling as the weapons featured in a comparable game, like Grand Theft Auto IV.I could see the same issue cropping up for him when it came Red Dead's problematic horse riding, which would, coming off of GTA IV, probably feel like a lot of work for a less engaging, much slower ride than you could get with a simple press of a button back in GTA.  You can get different looking horses that behave differently, move at different speeds, take different levels of damage, but it' never going to match up to the massive selection of incredibly varied vehicles that were easily obtainable in Rockstar's last game.  I think RDR was a lost cause from the start for Jeff because, as much as it makes sense given the setting for things to be taken down a notch, it's not going to match up to the experience offered by GTA IV. "
I disagree completely about Limbo but that's fine.   I think Darksiders did also get a shaft in the talk and also kind of for no reason so that's similar to how I feel about RDR.
 
As for RDR, I guess he doesn't like westerns (also illgoical...) and as someone is playing through Episodes from Liberty City (beat GTA IV on launch and never touched the rest) for the first time let me say that despite the age of the weapons, RDR's weapons are WAY more satisfying to use than GTA IV's and the shooting in general is far superior.  GTA IV"s weapons don't feel like you're really firing on the trigger pull and the lock on and free aiming systems in RDR are both far, far better than it is in GTA IV and seem to have a better idea what you want to do as a player.  The shot reactions from enemies are also much satisfying in RDR and the weapons feel stronger in general.  nd horses are different but if you're really trying to compare them to cars I think you are going about it in a very wrong way.  It's not like you play Oblivion and you say "Well this horse sucks I'd rather have that car I had in GTA IV".... I mean maybe you do but you are going about it a very wrong way IMO.
 
Not attacking your opinions here at all I respect them and that you are trying to fill in the gaps on Jeff's logic, but I still don't understand.  I'm not losing sleep but just think its a little strange.
#28 Posted by Brendan (7731 posts) -

Cool podcasts, but I feel like there are too many opinions on games from guys that haven't even played the games.  I feel like if one of the guys haven't played a game they should be more willing to defer to a guy with more experience.     
 
 
#29 Posted by huntad (1930 posts) -
@Stephen_Von_Cloud: You basically said what I was thinking, but could not get out due to this massive headache. Thank you very much!  
 
The fact that Jeff hates something does not mean the game should just not win. I am not understanding how he somehow got the game out of the number one spot with what he said. I really hope that Day 2 is better or at least does not give me a headache. If not, I'll just have to skip the podcasts as the headaches are not worth it.
#30 Posted by EpicSteve (6479 posts) -

It's good that someone is in the conversation that is on my side about Limbo not being that good.

#31 Posted by kingzetta (4307 posts) -

 vanquish should have been the best debut and limbo can suck it 

#32 Posted by MetalGearSunny (6988 posts) -
@Stephen_Von_Cloud said: 
I disagree completely about Limbo but that's fine.   I think Darksiders did also get a shaft in the talk and also kind of for no reason so that's similar to how I feel about RDR. As for RDR, I guess he doesn't like westerns (also illgoical...)  
There is nothing illogical about a damn opinion.
#33 Posted by septim (774 posts) -
@Brendan said:
" Cool podcasts, but I feel like there are too many opinions on games from guys that haven't even played the games.  I feel like if one of the guys haven't played a game they should be more willing to defer to a guy with more experience.        "
Yeah no kidding. Marston was DQ'd essentially because Jeff couldn't be bothered to play RDR.
 
There must be something going on behind the scenes as to why Jeff has it out for that title. I remember him being pretty openly miffed on a podcast that they didn't receive review copies so he decided not to review it and didn't want to do more coverage.
#34 Posted by huntad (1930 posts) -
@septim said:
" @Brendan said:
" Cool podcasts, but I feel like there are too many opinions on games from guys that haven't even played the games.  I feel like if one of the guys haven't played a game they should be more willing to defer to a guy with more experience.        "
Yeah no kidding. Marston was DQ'd essentially because Jeff couldn't be bothered to play RDR.  There must be something going on behind the scenes as to why Jeff has it out for that title. I remember him being pretty openly miffed on a podcast that they didn't receive review copies so he decided not to review it and didn't want to do more coverage. "
Yeah, that was my main guess as to why he has such a prejudice against it. I know he'll never admit to it and will continue clinging to his weird, unjustifiable reasons, but that's my main guess as to why he doesn't like the game. Baffling. 
#35 Posted by Tirion (84 posts) -
@Jimbo said:
" @Dtat said:
"I was cringing a lot hearing Jeff and Brad get more and more upset with each other to the point that it seemed like personal attacks..."
Fucks no, it's great to hear them having their own strong opinions about games and caring enough (and having time enough) to stand by it.  This is what makes the GOTY podcasts far and away the best content they do all year imo.  And they didn't get personal at all (they only do that about Ryan, and only when he has left the room).   
 
This. I love that we get a genuin insight in their process and not just a list with some flashy justification slapped on.
#36 Posted by Turtlemayor333 (510 posts) -

Man I wish the RDR conspiracy theories would stop. Damn near every podcast they talk about going to Best Buy to pick up some new game. Like Rockstar is one that doesn't want to send them games so Jeff got pissed? Get real.
 
You could argue Giant Bomb is apparently pretty close to 2K judging off the amazing BioShock Infinite coverage they've had so far.

#37 Posted by huntad (1930 posts) -
@Turtlemayor333: The only reason the conspiracy theories are out there is because Jeff makes no sense when he tries to justify his dislike for RDR. Which, btw, is perfectly fine with me and couldn't really give a damn, but it turned into this ugly thing on the podcast and John Marston was ruled out for no apparent reason. Which, still, is not really worth discussing because who the hell cares what a website thinks is the best character? 
 
So, I guess I am agreeing with you, but at the same time the hate of RDR is just plain stupid. I respect the GB crew's opinions, but just because they usually have excellent insight of what constitutes a great game. If you can understand that, you could probably understand why there are so many conspiracy theories out there about this garbage. Any mystery that is left unsolved has conspiracy theories. It's not far-fetched.  
#38 Posted by kingzetta (4307 posts) -
@septim said:
" @Brendan said:
" Cool podcasts, but I feel like there are too many opinions on games from guys that haven't even played the games.  I feel like if one of the guys haven't played a game they should be more willing to defer to a guy with more experience.        "
Yeah no kidding. Marston was DQ'd essentially because Jeff couldn't be bothered to play RDR.  There must be something going on behind the scenes as to why Jeff has it out for that title. I remember him being pretty openly miffed on a podcast that they didn't receive review copies so he decided not to review it and didn't want to do more coverage. "
Maybe he just does not like the game. It's ok not to like a game.
Tons of people don't like Starcraft 2 or Mass Effect 2 either. I beat RDR and it was a good game but nothing really special.
RDR was still another Rockstar open-world game. They haven't really don't a lot with them since GTA 3, besides making them bigger or better looking.
 
#39 Posted by triple07 (1196 posts) -
@EpicSteve said:
" It's good that someone is in the conversation that is on my side about Limbo not being that good. "
Yup I feel like Jeff is voicing it for me in the room. Didn't like Limbo and didn't think RDR was game of the year (one of my favorite games this year but not the best).
#40 Posted by huntad (1930 posts) -
@kingzetta: I totally agree with you that Jeff doesn't have to like the game. I don't like Dead Space, but I consider it a great game for the genre. I just find it so weird that Jeff was allowed say on a game that he did not even play and even influenced the rest of the crew who had actual experience with it. No disrespect toward them, but it seemed to be structured kinda poorly. It's not a big deal, but it's what this topic's about, so yeah.
#41 Posted by Akrid (1356 posts) -

 A lot of these complaints are pretty silly. My only gripe is that they spent so much time even considering John Marston. As they more or less concluded, he's a blank slate with a back story, little more then an ill-conceived plot device to streamline the action. They sacrificed the main character in order to skirt the conflicting elements and laborious pacing that they had in GTAIV. 
@huntad said:

" @septim said:
" @Brendan said:
" Cool podcasts, but I feel like there are too many opinions on games from guys that haven't even played the games.  I feel like if one of the guys haven't played a game they should be more willing to defer to a guy with more experience.        "
Yeah no kidding. Marston was DQ'd essentially because Jeff couldn't be bothered to play RDR.  There must be something going on behind the scenes as to why Jeff has it out for that title. I remember him being pretty openly miffed on a podcast that they didn't receive review copies so he decided not to review it and didn't want to do more coverage. "
Yeah, that was my main guess as to why he has such a prejudice against it. I know he'll never admit to it and will continue clinging to his weird, unjustifiable reasons, but that's my main guess as to why he doesn't like the game. Baffling.  "
They've explained this before. The review wouldn't at all be relevant by the time one of them finished the game.
 
Plus, holding a grudge like that is disgustingly petty, so much so that I refuse to believe anyone could actually have the capacity for it. These kinds of overwhelmingly villainous emotions only exist in our minds.
#42 Posted by Gabriel (4058 posts) -

It was surprising to see Ryan let Jeff and Brad go at it as he usually voices his opinions the strongest.

#43 Posted by huntad (1930 posts) -
@Akrid: You'd be surprised. The people you think the highest of can still hold something as petty as a grudge. We're all human, and it happens despite how well we understand why things happen.
#44 Posted by President_Barackbar (3448 posts) -
@Stephen_Von_Cloud:  I never said it was a good reason, but that is his reason.
#45 Posted by Kraznor (1578 posts) -

Yeah, there were some serious disagreement and these are the kind of lighter, jokey categories. Was really glad Francis York Morgan was given proper consideration, was under the impression everyone at Giant Bomb hated that game. I like John Marston as well though, I honestly would have cut Bayonetta from the list but whatever. Was surprised how much argument there was over Best Debut as well, had no idea Jeff hated LIMBO that much. Can't wait for the serious categories, sure there will be many more conflicts.

#46 Posted by Vinny_Says (5700 posts) -

Let's be real here, what Jeff says goes, so when Brad is alone and Vinny is kinda like whatever on something, Jeff will always come out on top.
 
Also Mordin totally deserves it, even if RDR is my favorite game. 
 
I'll bet stuff Jeff didn't enjoy (Just Cause 2, RDR, Limbo) won't win anything. It sucks but that's how it goes.

#47 Posted by Make_Me_Mad (3043 posts) -

Good to see people are having reasoned discussions about this instead of attacking the staff and coming up with bizarre theories about RDR getting snubbed.
@Stephen_Von_Cloud said:

" @Make_Me_Mad said:
As far as Limbo goes, I've played longer, better, more interesting puzzle games via Web browser for free.  It's a good game to be sure, but to put it as one of the best debuts of the year, I have to say it was a serious slap in the face of Darksiders.

And speaking solely from my experiences here, I think his liking Grand Theft Auto 4 probably had a lot to do with why he didn't get grabbed by RDR.  I enjoyed the (admittedly small) portion of the game that I played, but it's hard to go to that after you've played games that bring you a much more intense experience, for lack of a better word.  Jeff has voiced his dislike of the setting and time period in the past, and he has brought up the weapons as a sticking point, in that they are historical, and as such not nearly as satisfying or as powerful feeling as the weapons featured in a comparable game, like Grand Theft Auto IV.I could see the same issue cropping up for him when it came Red Dead's problematic horse riding, which would, coming off of GTA IV, probably feel like a lot of work for a less engaging, much slower ride than you could get with a simple press of a button back in GTA.  You can get different looking horses that behave differently, move at different speeds, take different levels of damage, but it' never going to match up to the massive selection of incredibly varied vehicles that were easily obtainable in Rockstar's last game.  I think RDR was a lost cause from the start for Jeff because, as much as it makes sense given the setting for things to be taken down a notch, it's not going to match up to the experience offered by GTA IV. "
I disagree completely about Limbo but that's fine.   I think Darksiders did also get a shaft in the talk and also kind of for no reason so that's similar to how I feel about RDR. As for RDR, I guess he doesn't like westerns (also illgoical...) and as someone is playing through Episodes from Liberty City (beat GTA IV on launch and never touched the rest) for the first time let me say that despite the age of the weapons, RDR's weapons are WAY more satisfying to use than GTA IV's and the shooting in general is far superior.  GTA IV"s weapons don't feel like you're really firing on the trigger pull and the lock on and free aiming systems in RDR are both far, far better than it is in GTA IV and seem to have a better idea what you want to do as a player.  The shot reactions from enemies are also much satisfying in RDR and the weapons feel stronger in general.  nd horses are different but if you're really trying to compare them to cars I think you are going about it in a very wrong way.  It's not like you play Oblivion and you say "Well this horse sucks I'd rather have that car I had in GTA IV".... I mean maybe you do but you are going about it a very wrong way IMO.  Not attacking your opinions here at all I respect them and that you are trying to fill in the gaps on Jeff's logic, but I still don't understand.  I'm not losing sleep but just think its a little strange. "

I agree and see how some people could really like Limbo.  I think that there are much better games in that style out there, but agree to disagree and all that.
I will say, as far as the weapons issue goes, that the best thing about the weapons in GTA IV to me was the ability to just pour mountains of bullets at anyone who looked at you wrong.  There was something incredibly satisfying about watching thugs running for cover while you dumped hundreds of rounds on their hiding places.  RDR had some very powerful feeling weapons, but there was no comparable way to just lay down an onslaught of destruction on someone.  The lack of cars and other such abundant destructible items to add to the chaos in RDR might have also contributed to the somewhat downplayed feel of the firefights.  Very thematically appropriate to the game, but it didn't make for as exciting a time.
The horses, I understand how some people could love them for the roleplaying aspect, the getting attached to an animal in the game world who you take care of, and the unending rage that could come from seeing your faithful horse gunned down or stolen by some punk.  On the other hand, if you don't get attached like that, don't make that connection, then it's just going to seem tedious and boring when you deal with that sort of thing.
Speaking of the horses in Oblivion, they were pretty much useless when you could just fast travel anywhere important, and the only reason to walk around on foot were in the times that a horse would be more of a hinderance, what with not being able to fight from them and the chance of them to attack you if you miss in that combat system.
RDR was brilliant for the setting and theme it went for, but if you didn't buy into that full-on, then you start to see some problems.  It just comes down to taste, I think.
#48 Posted by shadyspace (457 posts) -

I love Jeff but the unspoken sense that Giant Bomb is more "his" site than the others sort of weighs these discussions in his favor unfairly.

#49 Posted by DBrim (124 posts) -

Those who say "Jeff always gets his way" have really short memories.  During last year's GOTY discussions, he was overruled on making MW2 game of the year.  He was strongly against Uncharted 2, and wasn't super keen on Arkham Asylum either.

#50 Edited by huntad (1930 posts) -
@blacklabeldomm: Yup, sad but true. 
@shadyspace: I agree and it's a shame. 
 
Edit: I actually want to correct myself. He doesn't have his way all of the time, but it's very apparent that he holds a large percent of the sway in many of the decisions. Not a bad thing, but in this sort of case it can be unfair.