Hate for stealth games on the Bombcast?

Some of the most iconic and successful game franchises are based around stealth elements, including many beloved games which I myself enjoy. Do the guys ever give any reasons behind their sudden rejection of this genre?

Guess I'll repost as well.

@AkihikoSenpai:

None of them have the required patience or base level of awareness it takes to play "stealth" games competently. It's just how some people are. Mainly the impatience as can be seen in ignoring every single tutorial in the quick looks and spending 10 minutes wondering how to press 2 buttons that were told to them 10 times.

Having to play carefully is frustrating when you just want to get through the game ASAP so you can write the review?

@Jimbo: Yeah, it would be a shame if that were the case. They seemed to enjoy games like Absolution and Dishonored, although these do seem like less 'hardcore' examples of the genre, I suppose it's not unreasonable for them to have more fun with games like those, it's just a shame to hear such an overly negative reaction

I know I generally dislike stealth games because I lack the patience they require so I can only assume that they dislike them for the similar reasons.

But no, I don't recall them ever giving any reason beyond "Stealth sucks".

Everyone loves and hates their own thing, I personally love stealth game but I hate to play driving, rts and fighting games.

Mark of the Ninja made No.6 on their GOTY list and that's a stealth game, so yeah...there's that.

I hatttteeeee stealth. So I can totally relate.

@AkihikoSenpai said:

Some of the most iconic and successful game franchises are based around stealth elements, including many beloved games which I myself enjoy. Do the guys ever give any reasons behind their sudden rejection of this genre? Other than Patrick repeating STEALTH SUCKS in his usual fashion.

They've repeatedly gone over why they don't like stealth games with all the details you could care for. You like stealth games they don't. Get over it.

@ProfessorEss said:

I know I generally dislike stealth games because I lack the patience they require so I can only assume that they dislike them for the similar reasons.

But no, I don't recall them ever giving any reason beyond "Stealth sucks".

I'm guessing most people listen to bombcasts while they're doing something else but they couldn't have made it more clear what they don't like.

you've seen them try to play games before right?

they get upset if anything requires more effort than moving forward and pressing 1 button repeatedly

It can be frustrating. It is a matter of awareness, but patience is a lot more important. Not just the observing or waiting for the best moment to move, but repeating the process when you fuck up. Every stealth game I've played has that trial and error element to it. Playing Hitman Blood Money on hard and getting the infiltrator/suit only challenges on some levels was very difficult. They can be pretty fun if you're patient, boring and frustrating otherwise and there's nothing wrong with that.

@RobotHamster said:

Everyone loves and hates their own thing, I personally love stealth game but I hate to play driving, rts and fighting games.

You crazy.

It should be possible to discuss this without singling out certain members of staff for attack, and OP has been altered to reflect this.

Thanks.

Stealth games are weird. Splinter Cell: Conviction is the most fun I've had with a stealth game, take that how you will (I really liked conviction).
I also played both Crysis games like stealth games. I had a good time but often found myself avoiding most large encounters with enemies and felt like I was doing the game wrong for most of it (I was missing most enemy encounters). But surely invisibility was included in both games because stealth was supposed to be a core gameplay mechanic. What I'm getting at is that for a lot of people they don't feel like they are playing stealth games right and that's what people find off putting.

Fail-states in stealth games are much harder to avoid than in most other genres and typically have the harshest punishments as well. Players have to approach most stealth games from a position of weakness instead of feeling empowered, giving players one of the worst fun-to-frustration ratios in games.

Don't misunderstand me, I love stealth games, but I also love games that kick the shit out of me and force me to get better. I'm in it for the challenge. That doesn't change the fact that games are a medium for entertainment, and being on the receiving end of a shit-kicking is not most people's definition of fun.

@Yadilie said:

Guess I'll repost as well.

@AkihikoSenpai:

None of them have the required patience or base level of awareness it takes to play "stealth" games competently. It's just how some people are. Mainly the impatience as can be seen in ignoring every single tutorial in the quick looks and spending 10 minutes wondering how to press 2 buttons that were told to them 10 times.

Have you ever tried having a conversation, playing a game skillfully, and reading at the same time? It's not easy. Unless it's an MMO.

@AkihikoSenpai said:

Some of the most iconic and successful game franchises are based around stealth elements, including many beloved games which I myself enjoy. Do the guys ever give any reasons behind their sudden rejection of this genre?

I guess I would start by asking for examples. Metal Gear Solid is going to be the defacto and that series is largely beloved for the story and characters rather than the gameplay. Even then its largely based around utilizing secondary tools you acquire rather than abilities you possess.

But I wouldn't really count Splinter Cell, Thief or Tenchu among the most iconic and successful game franchises and Assassin's Creed dropped its focus on stealth with 2. When I think about modern stealth, I can only think of games that give you the option for it but don't dedicate themselves, games like Skyrim, Deus Ex: HR, Dishonored and, to some extent, specific scenarios in the Uncharted games.

I also wouldn't call it a sudden rejection, since the reason they weren't complaining about the genre was because they weren't playing any games in it. When they did, they have cited a lack of situational awareness and the punishments of their fail-states which requires the player to memorize patrol patterns and trial and error.

@Sweep said:

It should be possible to discuss this without singling out certain members of staff for attack, and OP has been altered to reflect this.

Thanks.

Woah, attack? Sorry, I just quoted the guy... Even Jeff called him out at the time for saying that, after he praised Dishonored so much

@Daneian said:

@AkihikoSenpai said:

Some of the most iconic and successful game franchises are based around stealth elements, including many beloved games which I myself enjoy. Do the guys ever give any reasons behind their sudden rejection of this genre?

I guess I would start by asking for examples. Metal Gear Solid is going to be the defacto and that series is largely beloved for the story and characters rather than the gameplay. Even then its largely based around utilizing secondary tools you acquire rather than abilities you possess.

But I wouldn't really count Splinter Cell, Thief or Tenchu among the most iconic and successful game franchises and Assassin's Creed dropped its focus on stealth with 2. When I think about modern stealth, I can only think of games that give you the option for it but don't dedicate themselves, games like Skyrim, Deus Ex: HR, Dishonored and, to some extent, specific scenarios in the Uncharted games.

I also wouldn't call it a sudden rejection, since the reason they weren't complaining about the genre was because they weren't playing any games in it. When they did, they have cited a lack of situational awareness and the punishments of their fail-states which requires the player to memorize patrol patterns and trial and error.

Yes I was referencing Metal Gear, Splinter Cell, early AC, Thief, Hitman and even the gameplay of Deus Ex was pretty heavily centered around stealth, so there surely must be some wider appeal of the genre. I do remember the fail-states issue, but that's kind of the point of stealth, isn't it? I guess my position is that stealth games that give you opportunities to escape from 'caught' situations multiple times without any great penalty are less exhilarating, as it removes the tension.

I do think the development of the genre could be interesting, but too many of the fixes for situational awareness rely on more 'gamey' systems that take you out of character. I haven't played Mark of the Ninja however, so that may change my mind.

Failure in most traditional stealth games feels like it isn't your fault. It's not a fun feeling to walk into a room and not have before-hand knowledge that a guard is standing there, looking a particular direction.

I'm a patient person, and I'm a big fan of the Splinter Cell series, but traditional stealth is fucking bullshit. Now that games have modernized these mechanics to make it feel a lot more like your fault, the genre is completely tolerable. I did an almost perfect no-kill/no-detection playthrough for Human Revolution and Dishonored--why? Because it was so gosh darn fun.

This was one of the most annoying things the Giant Bomb guys have ever said. It's cool if they don't like stealth, but they spoke as if there have never been any good stealth games and those games haven't had fans.

@project343 said:

Failure in most traditional stealth games feels like it isn't your fault. It's not a fun feeling to walk into a room and not have before-hand knowledge that a guard is standing there, looking a particular direction.

I'm a patient person, and I'm a big fan of the Splinter Cell series, but traditional stealth is fucking bullshit. Now that games have modernized these mechanics to make it feel a lot more like your fault, the genre is completely tolerable. I did an almost perfect no-kill/no-detection playthrough for Human Revolution and Dishonored--why? Because it was so gosh darn fun.

I still think there is middle ground.

My big issue is that we completely lost any stealth that isn't cover based. Stealth in the old Splinter Cell games where it was light and dark didn't have that much guess work to me, it always made sense. The lighting in the environment showed you where to hide and your meter helped as well. This also worked for Thief. Sure it wasn't as simple, but that was the beauty of it. The only times where it did become frustrating was day time missions, which were always hit or miss for me.

I hope we don't only have cover based stealth now because I find that so boring. Dishonored had its own tricks so that was fine, but the stealth in Deus Ex HR and Hitman Absolution is so damn boring.

@RazielCuts said:

Mark of the Ninja made No.6 on their GOTY list and that's a stealth game, so yeah...there's that.

They praised that alot for fixing stealth in video games, though. I'm not really on board with that, because I don't think it is that good and other stealth games are that bad, but yeah, that was a big part of their reasoning.

@StarvingGamer said:

Have you ever tried having a conversation, playing a game skillfully, and reading at the same time? It's not easy. Unless it's an MMO.

I realized this when trying to show Prototype off to my brother, essentially doing the same things the staff does (I wasn't consciously trying to emulate them, I was just trying to explain game mechanics and the like) and I died about 7 times. It was then I realized why they sometimes suck when they're showing something off.

But in regards to the topic at hand, I like all forms of stealth based games, the only one I didn't particularly care for was the new Hitman.

I really loved the first 2 Tenchu games.

I think it has to do with patience as well. Personally I can't play the Splinter Cell games I just get totally frustrated.

@RazielCuts said:

Mark of the Ninja made No.6 on their GOTY list and that's a stealth game, so yeah...there's that.

Mark of the Ninja is also really easy, and if spotted you can pretty much always just run away or kill people without any real consequences. (outside of achievements)

Dishonored is similar in that way, in that you can easily shortcut the game by murdering your way through. Basically these games added the option to play them in not very stealthy ways and still make progress.

I think overall they don't really care for stealth games because it's a genre that rewards patience and most of the GB staff are not patient people.

@ArjanN: Trail and Error ≠ Patience.

It's because they didn't play enough Thief. Funny enough most of the world's problems comes from people not playing enough Thief.

I just want to say the original Manhunt was excellent.

I suck at stealth so that my problem but I can't stand the trial and error nature of most stealth games. Also, the fail state are a but punishing (fail) or boring (hide somewhere for 5 minutes until a timer goes down so you can play again)

@ArjanN said:

@RazielCuts said:

Mark of the Ninja made No.6 on their GOTY list and that's a stealth game, so yeah...there's that.

Mark of the Ninja is also really easy, and if spotted you can pretty much always just run away or kill people without any real consequences. (outside of achievements)

Dishonored is similar in that way, in that you can easily shortcut the game by murdering your way through. Basically these games added the option to play them in not very stealthy ways and still make progress.

I think overall they don't really care for stealth games because it's a genre that rewards patience and most of the GB staff are not patient people.

I really think a lot of people who write off Mark of the Ninja as easy don't understand it's a score attack game. As someone who played it as a score attack game I'd like to know what you guys got? Going for the much higher scores is not easy in the slightest and takes tons of trial & error.

It's as difficult as going for silent assassin in the Hitman games.

They also don't really like JRPGs, but to each their own.

@ArjanN said:

@RazielCuts said:

Mark of the Ninja made No.6 on their GOTY list and that's a stealth game, so yeah...there's that.

Mark of the Ninja is also really easy, and if spotted you can pretty much always just run away or kill people without any real consequences. (outside of achievements)

Dishonored is similar in that way, in that you can easily shortcut the game by murdering your way through. Basically these games added the option to play them in not very stealthy ways and still make progress.

I think overall they don't really care for stealth games because it's a genre that rewards patience and most of the GB staff are not patient people.

What else can you add to this. Pretty much hit the nail on the head with this comment.

Because the trial and error of games like the earlier Splinter Cell installments is just no fun, and makes for the

WORST PERIOD GAMES PERIOD EVER PERIOD

So when you ask why they hate stealth games, I don't know

WHAT THE FUCK YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT!

@Legion_: Sick newsroom references all up in this bitch.

@Sweep said:

@Legion_: Sick newsroom references all up in this bitch.

Hell yeah!

I never understood how Patrick could loudly proclaim, "Steath sucks" when one of the most acclaimed games of ALL-TIME is Metal Gear Solid...Mark of the Ninja is a good game, but to say stealth sucked before it is really ridiculous..Mark of the NInja wouldn't exist without MGS.

@thabigred said:

@ArjanN said:

@RazielCuts said:

Mark of the Ninja made No.6 on their GOTY list and that's a stealth game, so yeah...there's that.

Mark of the Ninja is also really easy, and if spotted you can pretty much always just run away or kill people without any real consequences. (outside of achievements)

Dishonored is similar in that way, in that you can easily shortcut the game by murdering your way through. Basically these games added the option to play them in not very stealthy ways and still make progress.

I think overall they don't really care for stealth games because it's a genre that rewards patience and most of the GB staff are not patient people.

I really think a lot of people who write off Mark of the Ninja as easy don't understand it's a score attack game. As someone who played it as a score attack game I'd like to know what you guys got? Going for the much higher scores is not easy in the slightest and takes tons of trial & error.

It's as difficult as going for silent assassin in the Hitman games.

Nah, even going for the achievements, and completely ghosting levels really isn't all that hard in Mark of the Ninja. It checkpoints almost every room, and every room is generally set up in such a way that you see the enemies before they see you.

Hitman and Thief were definately harder.

@ArjanN said:

@thabigred said:

@ArjanN said:

@RazielCuts said:

Mark of the Ninja made No.6 on their GOTY list and that's a stealth game, so yeah...there's that.

Mark of the Ninja is also really easy, and if spotted you can pretty much always just run away or kill people without any real consequences. (outside of achievements)

Dishonored is similar in that way, in that you can easily shortcut the game by murdering your way through. Basically these games added the option to play them in not very stealthy ways and still make progress.

I think overall they don't really care for stealth games because it's a genre that rewards patience and most of the GB staff are not patient people.

I really think a lot of people who write off Mark of the Ninja as easy don't understand it's a score attack game. As someone who played it as a score attack game I'd like to know what you guys got? Going for the much higher scores is not easy in the slightest and takes tons of trial & error.

It's as difficult as going for silent assassin in the Hitman games.

Nah, even going for the achievements, and completely ghosting levels really isn't all that hard in Mark of the Ninja. It checkpoints almost every room, and every room is generally set up in such a way that you see the enemies before they see you.

Hitman and Thief were definately harder.

I'm talking about getting a high score, not achievements.

@thabigred said:

@ArjanN said:

@RazielCuts said:

Mark of the Ninja made No.6 on their GOTY list and that's a stealth game, so yeah...there's that.

Mark of the Ninja is also really easy, and if spotted you can pretty much always just run away or kill people without any real consequences. (outside of achievements)

Dishonored is similar in that way, in that you can easily shortcut the game by murdering your way through. Basically these games added the option to play them in not very stealthy ways and still make progress.

I think overall they don't really care for stealth games because it's a genre that rewards patience and most of the GB staff are not patient people.

I really think a lot of people who write off Mark of the Ninja as easy don't understand it's a score attack game. As someone who played it as a score attack game I'd like to know what you guys got? Going for the much higher scores is not easy in the slightest and takes tons of trial & error.

It's as difficult as going for silent assassin in the Hitman games.

Mark of the Ninja is my 2012 GOTY and I couldn't feel any more opposite about it than you. I pretty much disregard the scoring mechanics and just play how I want. I replay levels with he mindset of "OK, I want to try the _______ approach using these particular tools and these particular weapons". Or no tools and no weapons. Whatever. I just like to try stuff and see how it works. I found paying too much attention to the score hinders that freedom.

But then again, playing for the score is really just one more way to approach the game.

Watching the Human Revolution Quick Look, it felt as if Jeff was the absolute worst person to review it of all of Giant Bomb. Were it reviewed by Dave who understood where the series (or, at least, the most well-received entry of the series) had its strengths, it would have been the far more informative review for me. That Jeff played DX: HR more as a shooter and he gave the Syndicate reboot a 5 out of 5 is sort of telling.

Their lack of situational awareness and patience is definitely the main reason. I could go on about how I feel when I watch the quicklooker, the guest star and the guy in the recording room all miss/ignore/skip through that tutorial/text prompt telling them exactly what they should be doing for that thing they've been stuck on for the last 10min, but I'm sure people have gone over it a million times already. Hey, that's how some people are. But to hate a game/genre and say it sucks, just because you're bad at it, I don't agree with.

It's not hard to see why they'd like Mark of the Ninja, even if they hate traditional stealth games. It's easy, only has 2 dimensional movement, and does most of the work for you by practically reading the minds of all enemies in sight which can give anyone, even the GB crew, the +Situational Awareness ability :P You're also a grossly overpowered ninja with tons of tools and abilities that can get you through pretty much any situation with ease. Arcade Stealth, if you will. It's as 'similar' to traditional stealth games as Ridge Racer is to Gran Turismo. But don't get me wrong, I think the game is great and I enjoy it. Just not for the same reasons I like and enjoy traditional stealth games.

Failure in most traditional stealth games feels like it isn't your fault. It's not a fun feeling to walk into a room and not have before-hand knowledge that a guard is standing there, looking a particular direction.

Except, 99% of the time, it IS your fault. Any actual stealth game(Not action games with shitty stealth levels) gave you ways to avoid situations like this. Either in the form of powers/abilities/items(like X-ray vision, peeking around corners, snake cam, etc.) or audio visual cues(footsteps, conversations, shadows, etc.) If you actually looked at your surroundings you didn't need neon highlights and view cones to tell which way an enemy was facing. If I see an enemy's ass it's pretty obvious which way he's facing. If I hear footsteps getting quieter, it's pretty safe to assume they're walking away from me. Minus those games with moonwalking enemies, of course. In short, don't just waltz into a room without checking it out first and you too can become a master at stealth games.