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#1 Posted by Jams (2962 posts) -

When was talking about The Secret World, I really felt like he wasn't doing it justice. He hit most of the points, but he didn't understand the reasons behind why they did what they did. I'm really thinking they need a guy who likes MMORPG's or is at least open to the idea of them and that gets into the development side of the genre. Some one that gets into the why and how of why developers do what they do but for MMORPG's and understands the features of the games in the genre.

That way, when they talk about TSW they can explain why you can only have so many quests (to stop people from running around and grabbing all the quests in the area and just running through the content). Why you can corpse run as a ghost with the option to resurrect on the spot (so you can run to your body without being aggro'ed I think or give up and res on the spot). Whether he would like the feature or not, I believe he should at least have an understanding of why it's there and the potential pros and cons of it to better inform potential buyers.

That way at least people can go, "Oh yeah, that makes sense. I understand it a little better now.". He also didn't really go into detail about the decks and how they work. If you can get into the idea of deck building, you might like the game more than just, "the combat is, you hit 1 a bunch". Sure that's just about how all games work and you're not really being fair to the game by breaking it down like that. It's fine that he didn't like it, but I wish at least he had a better understanding of it.

Having said all that, I like the game for now. I have my own things I don't like about the game, like it not being Star Wars Galaxies but better. I also think he's on the money about them having their own fake internet, or at least maybe making their own fake search engine that helps direct you in the right way. My last biggest gripe was that when he was talking about the Morse Code thing, it just sounds like he didn't like the fact that he had to actually DO the puzzle and instead wanted to hit the I win button. Although I think they are poorly put together puzzles with huge leaps in logic to complete them, I feel like that's not really fair to the developers and the potential buyers. But at least he hit most of the points to where the smarter gamers can at least pick up the differences in knowing what they like and what Jeff likes; giving them an informed decision.

Thanks for reading my rant.

#2 Posted by TheDudeOfGaming (6078 posts) -

Once you play an MMORPG, you've played them all. There may be some small variations between each other, but really, it's more or less the same. And hell, if you want to know more about a video game, google it.

#3 Edited by Jams (2962 posts) -

@TheDudeOfGaming said:

Once you play an MMORPG, you've played them all. There may be some small variations between each other, but really, it's more or less the same. And hell, if you want to know more about a video game, google it.

You can say that about anything in the world.

Once you play an FPS, you've played them all. There may be some small variations between each other, but really, it's more or less the same.

Once you play an RPG, you've played them all. There may be some small variations between each other, but really, it's more or less the same.

Once you play a video game, you've played them all. There may be some small variations between each other, but really, it's more or less the same.

Once you eat a pie, you've eaten them all. There may be some small variations between each other, but really, it's more or less the same.

Once you sex a woman, you've sexed them all. There may be some small variations between each other, but really, it's more or less the same.

Once you tried a sport, you've tried them all. There may be some small variations between each other, but really, it's more or less the same.

It's the small variations that make things truly different.

#4 Posted by EarlessShrimp (1660 posts) -

@Jams: you forgot, if you've read one thread you've read them all. There may be some small variations between each other, but really, it's more or less the same.

#5 Posted by fox01313 (5079 posts) -

Most everyone on the staff have played a bunch of the mmos out there so they seem pretty capable as they're not focused on just liking one mmo. I think Vinny & Patrick might be the only two that haven't done a lot on the site with mmos yet.

#6 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -

The MMO guy here hates MMOs

#7 Edited by AlexW00d (6302 posts) -

I think they just need to be a bit more open minded instead. Yes we all love the sarcasm and humour and shit, but some facts are nice occasionally too.

#8 Posted by Imsorrymsjackson (855 posts) -

Nah, seems pointless to me. Its just make character, kill, loot, kill, loot, gear up, grind end game until new content comes out, rinse and repeat, f2p, die.

#9 Posted by stinky (1549 posts) -

pointless, its largely about the social experience. how can they tell you you'll have fun with your friends. and how do you review end game? too much time.

#10 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -
@Imsorrymsjackson said:

Nah, seems pointless to me. Its just make character, kill, loot, kill, loot, gear up, grind end game until new content comes out, rinse and repeat, f2p, die.

Untill somthing is changed in an MMO is more or less the same aside from graphics and combat style. Every MMO I have played as off as of late takes after WoW. 
#11 Posted by CornBREDX (5593 posts) -

You're not really helping your case by saying everything is always the same. If sex is always the same to you, you need to mix it some more.
 
Anyway, opinions. 
I don't think he needed to be more in depth. He'll probably say more on the game during the quicklook anyway. 
You're only assuming your answers as to why on those questions anyway, the same way anybody who cared to know more about the game would. You didn't get those answers from a developer (unless you are one disguising him or herself). 
 
Jeff has played several MMOs, and has always been clear on his stance that hes not into them. The problem with MMOs is they carry their sameyness on their sleeve. They don't hide the grind ever. They try to, sometimes, but often its impossible to hide as it's intention is to keep you playing longer.
 
Granted, I only played this game during the beta, and it's an ok game- for an MMO. It's still just an MMO and doesn't do anything special. It's still incredibly- overtly- repetitive. The atmosphere and ideas they are going for seem interesting to me, but I just don't want to play with MMO gameplay anymore. I've gotten so bored of it and it never changes. 
 
The puzzle Jeff described seemed like nonsense as well. I know though this game has varying difficulties in missions and maybe that one is one of the "hard" ones but asking someone to decode morse code without any analog (unless he missed something, which could happen) or cypher is kind of ridiculous. That's bad puzzle design.  And ya you could look it up online, but why expect your player to learn Morse Code just to decipher this puzzle? It's easier just to get the answer.
  
Of course, that's just my opinion. I don't think they need a MMO Expert to decode the mysteries of The Secret World. It's pretty self explanatory- Jeff just thinks certain things about it are bad. I don't agree with all his points but I have some of my own.  I will add though, Jeff has mentioned on one of his Jar videos he wishes they could have more people that are into games the group they have isn't into for more genre coverage. MMOs was one he mentioned. 
 
Anywho, those are my thoughts. I apparently had a lot of them.

#12 Posted by Imsorrymsjackson (855 posts) -

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@Imsorrymsjackson said:

Nah, seems pointless to me. Its just make character, kill, loot, kill, loot, gear up, grind end game until new content comes out, rinse and repeat, f2p, die.

Untill somthing is changed in an MMO is more or less the same aside from graphics and combat style. Every MMO I have played as off as of late takes after WoW.

Yeh, Wow is pretty much the template and always will be, I dont see where else they can go from here really.

#13 Posted by probablytuna (3726 posts) -

The Golden Duder would be a great choice.

#14 Posted by Daiphyer (1341 posts) -

*Cough* Matthew Rorie *Cough*

#15 Posted by Marokai (3060 posts) -

The site's cast does not need to be all things to all people all the time. That's not to say they shouldn't be respectful of certain series and not make completely ridiculous declarative statements on things if they lack the knowledge (as they so often do on JRPGs), but the cast does not need some sort of dedicated expert for every single genre and niche that exists.

#16 Edited by CaLe (4018 posts) -

Jeff has put some serious time into MMOs so it's not like he's unfamiliar with the genre or anything. He can talk about them like he can talk about any other type of game he has played a lot of, and for most listeners that's plenty. Anyone could come in and tell the guys to get an expert in a particular area they are interested in, Jeff himself brought the idea up in one of his Jar Times, but for the most part they do a fine job in giving a quick honest impression. More people would be bored by a detailed explanation of an MMO than those who would find it interesting.

#17 Posted by Jeff (3626 posts) -

@Jams said:

That way, when they talk about TSW they can explain why you can only have so many quests (to stop people from running around and grabbing all the quests in the area and just running through the content).

So now I get to try to keep a mental checklist of whatever quest givers I run past while doing the three or so quests I'm allowed to take on at a time? Gee, yeah, that's a great solution to a non-existent problem. Never mind the part where they're stretching out their content in a game with a monthly fee and how that makes this tactic kind of gross, whether you're into the lore or not.

Anyway, don't confuse the desire to keep a conversation moving during a podcast with a lack of understanding.

Staff
#18 Posted by Imsorrymsjackson (855 posts) -

@Jeff said:

@Jams said:

That way, when they talk about TSW they can explain why you can only have so many quests (to stop people from running around and grabbing all the quests in the area and just running through the content).

So now I get to try to keep a mental checklist of whatever quest givers I run past while doing the three or so quests I'm allowed to take on at a time? Gee, yeah, that's a great solution to a non-existent problem. Never mind the part where they're stretching out their content in a game with a monthly fee and how that makes this tactic kind of gross, whether you're into the lore or not.

Anyway, don't confuse the desire to keep a conversation moving during a podcast with a lack of understanding.

BIG JEFFRY BRINGING THE SMACKDOWN!!!

#19 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -
@Imsorrymsjackson said:

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@Imsorrymsjackson said:

Nah, seems pointless to me. Its just make character, kill, loot, kill, loot, gear up, grind end game until new content comes out, rinse and repeat, f2p, die.

Untill somthing is changed in an MMO is more or less the same aside from graphics and combat style. Every MMO I have played as off as of late takes after WoW.

Yeh, Wow is pretty much the template and always will be, I dont see where else they can go from here really.

I played a crap ton of WoW and other mmos. Nothing really changes. You take quests kill the same things and level up. The only thing that really steps it up was Guild wars. Course is that counted as a MMO? 
#20 Posted by Bobby_The_Great (1008 posts) -

I think that Jeff is just a negative nancy and doesn't like games, really. It has to be super crazy for him to like it. That said; opinions. I'm not saying you're not right, but just don't read too much into what Jeff says. I mean Diablo is just clicking a bunch, and that game is amazing (to me).

#21 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -
@CaLe

Jeff has put some serious time into MMOs so it's not like he's unfamiliar with the genre or anything. He can talk about them like he can talk about any other type of game he has played a lot of, and for most listeners that's plenty. Anyone could come in and tell the guys to get an expert in a particular area they are interested in, Jeff himself brought the idea up in one of his Jar Times, but for the most part they do a fine job in giving a quick honest impression. More people would be bored by a detailed explanation of an MMO than those who would find it interesting.

But Jeff clearly does not enjoy MMOs or social interaction with people in them, Jeff being the MMO guy would be like me critiquing RTS games even though all of them bore me to tears. I don't like the genre, so I stay away from it.
#22 Posted by SuperSambo (2879 posts) -

No

#23 Edited by rmanthorp (3999 posts) -

@Jeff said:

@Jams said:

That way, when they talk about TSW they can explain why you can only have so many quests (to stop people from running around and grabbing all the quests in the area and just running through the content).

So now I get to try to keep a mental checklist of whatever quest givers I run past while doing the three or so quests I'm allowed to take on at a time? Gee, yeah, that's a great solution to a non-existent problem. Never mind the part where they're stretching out their content in a game with a monthly fee and how that makes this tactic kind of gross, whether you're into the lore or not.

Anyway, don't confuse the desire to keep a conversation moving during a podcast with a lack of understanding.

HE'S HEATING UP. KA-BOOM.

Here was me thinking that the Russian Klaxon was the thing keeping conversation moving in that podcast. Seriously though having an "MMO guy" is like having a "Steam guy" and personally I think normal website coverage of MMOs is broken and this wouldn't help fix that problem any.

Moderator
#24 Posted by Toxin066 (3302 posts) -

I'm looking for any excuse to get more Rorie, so sure. I really think they need an MMO guy too.

#25 Posted by SgtGrumbles (1024 posts) -

So what you're saying is you like The Secret World.

#26 Posted by Imsorrymsjackson (855 posts) -

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@Imsorrymsjackson said:

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@Imsorrymsjackson said:

Nah, seems pointless to me. Its just make character, kill, loot, kill, loot, gear up, grind end game until new content comes out, rinse and repeat, f2p, die.

Untill somthing is changed in an MMO is more or less the same aside from graphics and combat style. Every MMO I have played as off as of late takes after WoW.

Yeh, Wow is pretty much the template and always will be, I dont see where else they can go from here really.

I played a crap ton of WoW and other mmos. Nothing really changes. You take quests kill the same things and level up. The only thing that really steps it up was Guild wars. Course is that counted as a MMO?

I think you have to count it as an MMO due to the nature of its persistence and constant evolution. I know the Guild Wars is free so that means that less updates between expansions but I think it is still officially an MMO. I just think any new MMO will always have to have the same constants like action bars, skill trees, quest givers, mounts and loot. It just makes me think any new MMO will be able to be sold by just asking the question "Do you like the _____ universe?" if so then this is suitable for you if you want an MMO.

#27 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -
@Imsorrymsjackson said:

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@Imsorrymsjackson said:

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@Imsorrymsjackson said:

Nah, seems pointless to me. Its just make character, kill, loot, kill, loot, gear up, grind end game until new content comes out, rinse and repeat, f2p, die.

Untill somthing is changed in an MMO is more or less the same aside from graphics and combat style. Every MMO I have played as off as of late takes after WoW.

Yeh, Wow is pretty much the template and always will be, I dont see where else they can go from here really.

I played a crap ton of WoW and other mmos. Nothing really changes. You take quests kill the same things and level up. The only thing that really steps it up was Guild wars. Course is that counted as a MMO?

I think you have to count it as an MMO due to the nature of its persistence and constant evolution. I know the Guild Wars is free so that means that less updates between expansions but I think it is still officially an MMO. I just think any new MMO will always have to have the same constants like action bars, skill trees, quest givers, mounts and loot. It just makes me think any new MMO will be able to be sold by just asking the question "Do you like the _____ universe?" if so then this is suitable for you if you want an MMO.

I loved Tabula Rasa. Sadly it was canned. I really wanna a CyberPunk MMO. *Playing Syndicate right now *
#28 Posted by CaLe (4018 posts) -

@CL60 said:

@CaLe

Jeff has put some serious time into MMOs so it's not like he's unfamiliar with the genre or anything. He can talk about them like he can talk about any other type of game he has played a lot of, and for most listeners that's plenty. Anyone could come in and tell the guys to get an expert in a particular area they are interested in, Jeff himself brought the idea up in one of his Jar Times, but for the most part they do a fine job in giving a quick honest impression. More people would be bored by a detailed explanation of an MMO than those who would find it interesting.

But Jeff clearly does not enjoy MMOs or social interaction with people in them, Jeff being the MMO guy would be like me critiquing RTS games even though all of them bore me to tears. I don't like the genre, so I stay away from it.

If he didn't like them he wouldn't have bought a lifetime subscription to one or put more than 100 hours into some others. He seems pretty neutral and that's more interesting for me than to listen to someone with vested interests in particular genres. Plenty of people play MMOs without doing anything that requires social interaction, which is why many try to cater for those players.

#29 Posted by CornBREDX (5593 posts) -
@Imsorrymsjackson said:

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@Imsorrymsjackson said:

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@Imsorrymsjackson said:

Nah, seems pointless to me. Its just make character, kill, loot, kill, loot, gear up, grind end game until new content comes out, rinse and repeat, f2p, die.

Untill somthing is changed in an MMO is more or less the same aside from graphics and combat style. Every MMO I have played as off as of late takes after WoW.

Yeh, Wow is pretty much the template and always will be, I dont see where else they can go from here really.

I played a crap ton of WoW and other mmos. Nothing really changes. You take quests kill the same things and level up. The only thing that really steps it up was Guild wars. Course is that counted as a MMO?

I think you have to count it as an MMO due to the nature of its persistence and constant evolution. I know the Guild Wars is free so that means that less updates between expansions but I think it is still officially an MMO. I just think any new MMO will always have to have the same constants like action bars, skill trees, quest givers, mounts and loot. It just makes me think any new MMO will be able to be sold by just asking the question "Do you like the _____ universe?" if so then this is suitable for you if you want an MMO.

Just for the record, the first Guild Wars is not an MMO. It is a multiplayer RPG with hubs. You do not go through the world and see other players unless you are in a hub area. You cannot randomly meet another player during a quest and team up with them.  
It is, by definition, not an MMO. The second Guild Wars is going to be, from what I hear.
#30 Posted by Imsorrymsjackson (855 posts) -

@CornBREDX said:

@Imsorrymsjackson said:

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@Imsorrymsjackson said:

@The_Laughing_Man said:

@Imsorrymsjackson said:

Nah, seems pointless to me. Its just make character, kill, loot, kill, loot, gear up, grind end game until new content comes out, rinse and repeat, f2p, die.

Untill somthing is changed in an MMO is more or less the same aside from graphics and combat style. Every MMO I have played as off as of late takes after WoW.

Yeh, Wow is pretty much the template and always will be, I dont see where else they can go from here really.

I played a crap ton of WoW and other mmos. Nothing really changes. You take quests kill the same things and level up. The only thing that really steps it up was Guild wars. Course is that counted as a MMO?

I think you have to count it as an MMO due to the nature of its persistence and constant evolution. I know the Guild Wars is free so that means that less updates between expansions but I think it is still officially an MMO. I just think any new MMO will always have to have the same constants like action bars, skill trees, quest givers, mounts and loot. It just makes me think any new MMO will be able to be sold by just asking the question "Do you like the _____ universe?" if so then this is suitable for you if you want an MMO.

Just for the record, the first Guild Wars is not an MMO. It is a multiplayer RPG with hubs. You do not go through the world and see other players unless you are in a hub area. You cannot randomly meet another player during a quest and team up with them. It is, by definition, not an MMO. The second Guild Wars is going to be, from what I hear.

You say tomato, i say tomatoe, its an online RPG, close enough for me.

#31 Posted by impartialgecko (1612 posts) -

Jeff knows his MMO's better than most of the bomb crew (Bar Mr Snider esquire), know your Gerstmann before throwing down that gauntlet of yours.

#32 Posted by Bane122 (799 posts) -

@Jams said:

@TheDudeOfGaming said:

Once you play an MMORPG, you've played them all. There may be some small variations between each other, but really, it's more or less the same. And hell, if you want to know more about a video game, google it.

You can say that about anything in the world.

Once you play an FPS...

Most of those are horrible examples. Pretty much everything you mentioned, save possibly the fps, is wildly different. Sports, pie, sex, games... even rpgs have much more than small variations between them.

It's not a case of Jeff not understanding why things were done, such as the corpse running, it's a case of lamenting that they were done that way. He (and at this point anyone interested in mmos) knows the point of it but that doesn't mean he can't be bummed he developer didn't try something different.

You may have a point about the deck building, I don't know as I've not played the game, but if Jeff's been able to go through what he's played so far fine without messing with it much and just hitting 1 a bunch, that's a problem with the design.

I also find your point about the puzzles a weird one. You say it sounds like Jeff wants an I win button once the puzzle is figured out, but then go right into how the puzzles are bad and require leaps and logic to complete. How is it not fair to the devs or gamers to point out something that annoyed him about the game?

Honestly this sounds like you're upset a game you like got a bum rap on the podcast.

#33 Posted by Cameron (603 posts) -

@Jams said:

That way, when they talk about TSW they can explain why you can only have so many quests (to stop people from running around and grabbing all the quests in the area and just running through the content).

That's just a lazy developer excuse, not something a player should care about. If your solution to not having enough content is to artificially limit the amount of content I can experience at once, then you fucked up. I think this is a big problem for most MMOs and knowing the developer's explanation for a bad practice doesn't make it any better.

For example, I'd love to play SWTOR, but I want to play it like KOTOR, I just want to experience the story and move on. But since the developers are so focused on getting a monthly subscription out of me, they make that impossible and so I'll probably never play SWTOR. Artificially limiting story progress, be it through forced grinding, tons of fetch quests, or limiting the number of active quests, is just off-putting to a lot of players, myself included. There's just no benefit for the player, only benefit for the developer so they can suck more money out of you. Jeff just pointed out something that seemed like a bad design decision and I certainly don't think it's Jeff's job to make excuses for bad design. Why a bad design is there is irrelevant to most players, it's Jeff's job to tell us it's there so that those who agree with him can avoid the game.

#34 Posted by Jams (2962 posts) -

@Jeff said:

@Jams said:

That way, when they talk about TSW they can explain why you can only have so many quests (to stop people from running around and grabbing all the quests in the area and just running through the content).

So now I get to try to keep a mental checklist of whatever quest givers I run past while doing the three or so quests I'm allowed to take on at a time? Gee, yeah, that's a great solution to a non-existent problem. Never mind the part where they're stretching out their content in a game with a monthly fee and how that makes this tactic kind of gross, whether you're into the lore or not.

Anyway, don't confuse the desire to keep a conversation moving during a podcast with a lack of understanding.

Don't get me wrong, I think you did great with what you said, but I was just thinking back to the time where you said you would like another guy who'd know a little more about other genres that the rest of you guys don't really want to deal with like sports or fighting games, etc. Listening to you talking about the game just made me think that maybe this game would have been one of those times where it would be beneficial. Or even if you still you have the assignment to play it, the other guy could at least shoot relevant questions off of you.

It felt like one of those situations where nobody really knew what to ask. I think Brad and Vinny did do a pretty good job with questions, but I guess I was desiring more. I don't know if there are many MMORPG's fans on the site (it doesn't seem like it), but it would benefit people like me that kind did get tired of the WoW, SWTOR type games that have been coming out.

Anyway, don't confuse the desire to keep a conversation moving during a podcast with a lack of understanding.

Oh no, I didn't. My apologies; I think I'm really wanting to hear you talk about it and I was left wanting. I'm really looking forward to the quick look of it. It's the MMO that revitalized my feelings of the genre that left after they tried to make SWG more like WoW and I want to hear all about it, you know?

Let me iterate one last time, I think you know what you're talking about with all manner of games and I really enjoy what you and your crew produce. I don't want to tell you how to do your job or anything, I just thought I'd chime in with my thoughts. I hate that I have the feeling that I shouldn't have opened my proverbial mouth though with the comments that I've been getting. Maybe I need to practice putting my thoughts in writing better.

Thanks for reading.

#35 Posted by Sackmanjones (4739 posts) -
@Jams

@Jeff said:

@Jams said:

That way, when they talk about TSW they can explain why you can only have so many quests (to stop people from running around and grabbing all the quests in the area and just running through the content).

So now I get to try to keep a mental checklist of whatever quest givers I run past while doing the three or so quests I'm allowed to take on at a time? Gee, yeah, that's a great solution to a non-existent problem. Never mind the part where they're stretching out their content in a game with a monthly fee and how that makes this tactic kind of gross, whether you're into the lore or not.

Anyway, don't confuse the desire to keep a conversation moving during a podcast with a lack of understanding.

Don't get me wrong, I think you did great with what you said, but I was just thinking back to the time where you said you would like another guy who'd know a little more about other genres that the rest of you guys don't really want to deal with like sports or fighting games, etc. Listening to you talking about the game just made me think that maybe this game would have been one of those times where it would be beneficial. Or even if you still you have the assignment to play it, the other guy could at least shoot relevant questions off of you.

It felt like one of those situations where nobody really knew what to ask. I think Brad and Vinny did do a pretty good job with questions, but I guess I was desiring more. I don't know if there are many MMORPG's fans on the site (it doesn't seem like it), but it would benefit people like me that kind did get tired of the WoW, SWTOR type games that have been coming out.

Anyway, don't confuse the desire to keep a conversation moving during a podcast with a lack of understanding.

Oh no, I didn't. My apologies; I think I'm really wanting to hear you talk about it and I was left wanting. I'm really looking forward to the quick look of it. It's the MMO that revitalized my feelings of the genre that left after they tried to make SWG more like WoW and I want to hear all about it, you know?

Let me iterate one last time, I think you know what you're talking about with all manner of games and I really enjoy what you and your crew produce. I don't want to tell you how to do your job or anything, I just thought I'd chime in with my thoughts. I hate that I have the feeling that I shouldn't have opened my proverbial mouth though with the comments that I've been getting. Maybe I need to practice putting my thoughts in writing better.

Thanks for reading.

Big Jeff has got you on the back peddle son...
#36 Posted by bvilleneuve (265 posts) -

@CaLe said:

@CL60 said:

@CaLe

Jeff has put some serious time into MMOs so it's not like he's unfamiliar with the genre or anything. He can talk about them like he can talk about any other type of game he has played a lot of, and for most listeners that's plenty. Anyone could come in and tell the guys to get an expert in a particular area they are interested in, Jeff himself brought the idea up in one of his Jar Times, but for the most part they do a fine job in giving a quick honest impression. More people would be bored by a detailed explanation of an MMO than those who would find it interesting.

But Jeff clearly does not enjoy MMOs or social interaction with people in them, Jeff being the MMO guy would be like me critiquing RTS games even though all of them bore me to tears. I don't like the genre, so I stay away from it.

If he didn't like them he wouldn't have bought a lifetime subscription to one or put more than 100 hours into some others. He seems pretty neutral and that's more interesting for me than to listen to someone with vested interests in particular genres. Plenty of people play MMOs without doing anything that requires social interaction, which is why many try to cater for those players.

I've articulated this before, but I don't think the Star Trek lifetime subscription means he doesn't not like MMOs, it means he likes Star Trek. And the 100 hours into SWTOR was more about needing something mindless to do for an extended period of time than about liking MMOs.

The Secret World's reception has something valuable to teach us all about video game criticism. I've heard two opinions on it so far. Jeff's was relatively negative, while Adam Smith of RPS enjoyed it a lot more. Oh no! Where does that leave me, the consumer? My next step (as should be the case with every consumer everywhere) was to compare myself to the two critics. I dislike MMO mechanics (like Jeff), but I think that Ragnar Tornquist is incredibly talented (like Adam). Jeff says that the MMO mechanics are firmly entrenched in TSW and that the puzzles are overly opaque, Adam says that the puzzles are awesome and unique and that the writing is incredible, and that the mechanics aren't bad but they're nothing really special. I take these two opinions, I synthesize them with my own previous experiences, and I come to the conclusion that I will definitely try out The Secret World eventually but that it's not really a priority right now.

The black and white worldview that gets confused when it hears conflicting critical information is one of the things that gaming as a community needs to get away from to really help the medium mature.

#37 Edited by SeriouslyNow (8534 posts) -

@Jeff said:

@Jams said:

That way, when they talk about TSW they can explain why you can only have so many quests (to stop people from running around and grabbing all the quests in the area and just running through the content).

So now I get to try to keep a mental checklist of whatever quest givers I run past while doing the three or so quests I'm allowed to take on at a time? Gee, yeah, that's a great solution to a non-existent problem. Never mind the part where they're stretching out their content in a game with a monthly fee and how that makes this tactic kind of gross, whether you're into the lore or not.

Anyway, don't confuse the desire to keep a conversation moving during a podcast with a lack of understanding.

But Jeff, HP WUBcraft!

#38 Posted by Renahzor (994 posts) -

I think MMO opinion is too difficult to discern for most people anyway. At best you can get an idea of what the game is like mechanically and not much else, because game experiences are going to be wildly different from one person to the next based on so much aside from just the game itself.

I think a more interesting approach would be a community involved area where people who are invested in the MMOs they play write about what's new, upcoming, or different about the MMO they play. I did this once as a review for a new WoW feature(LFG update back in 2010) and got a few people viewing it, but you really have to ask yourself if a staff member could even keep up with this one task. MMOs take a ton of time by their very nature, and getting invested in one to really dissect what makes them different would take up so much of a person's time that they'd have a hard time even keeping up with new releases etc. A community of people writing about the ones they know best would be way better, perhaps with some good integration into the wiki system so we could see about new features, new ideas, etc in old, new, and evolving MMOs.

#39 Posted by wewantsthering (1578 posts) -

One of the reasons I love Giant Bomb is that they don't cover sports or MMOs. Haha. If someone actually came out with a good, new take on MMOs, the GB staff would be all over it. I think the reason they don't really cover it is because the current form of MMOs is dying. I'm not saying MMOs are going away! I'm saying it's current ancient form is going to go away.

#40 Posted by Imsorrymsjackson (855 posts) -

@Sackmanjones said:

@Jams

@Jeff said:

@Jams said:

That way, when they talk about TSW they can explain why you can only have so many quests (to stop people from running around and grabbing all the quests in the area and just running through the content).

So now I get to try to keep a mental checklist of whatever quest givers I run past while doing the three or so quests I'm allowed to take on at a time? Gee, yeah, that's a great solution to a non-existent problem. Never mind the part where they're stretching out their content in a game with a monthly fee and how that makes this tactic kind of gross, whether you're into the lore or not.

Anyway, don't confuse the desire to keep a conversation moving during a podcast with a lack of understanding.

Don't get me wrong, I think you did great with what you said, but I was just thinking back to the time where you said you would like another guy who'd know a little more about other genres that the rest of you guys don't really want to deal with like sports or fighting games, etc. Listening to you talking about the game just made me think that maybe this game would have been one of those times where it would be beneficial. Or even if you still you have the assignment to play it, the other guy could at least shoot relevant questions off of you.

It felt like one of those situations where nobody really knew what to ask. I think Brad and Vinny did do a pretty good job with questions, but I guess I was desiring more. I don't know if there are many MMORPG's fans on the site (it doesn't seem like it), but it would benefit people like me that kind did get tired of the WoW, SWTOR type games that have been coming out.

Anyway, don't confuse the desire to keep a conversation moving during a podcast with a lack of understanding.

Oh no, I didn't. My apologies; I think I'm really wanting to hear you talk about it and I was left wanting. I'm really looking forward to the quick look of it. It's the MMO that revitalized my feelings of the genre that left after they tried to make SWG more like WoW and I want to hear all about it, you know?

Let me iterate one last time, I think you know what you're talking about with all manner of games and I really enjoy what you and your crew produce. I don't want to tell you how to do your job or anything, I just thought I'd chime in with my thoughts. I hate that I have the feeling that I shouldn't have opened my proverbial mouth though with the comments that I've been getting. Maybe I need to practice putting my thoughts in writing better.

Thanks for reading.

Big Jeff has got you on the back peddle son...

This.

#41 Edited by BraveToaster (12589 posts) -

The way I see it, there is always going to be a few people trying to tell the staff how to do their job (no matter how good they do it). You could tell that Jeff didn't enjoy the game, it has nothing to do with it being an MMO; hell, they talk about Phantasy Star Online 2 quite a bit. Even if they had an "MMO Expert", no one else would want to drive the conversation any further, unless you just want to hear him talk to himself.

#42 Posted by triviaman09 (803 posts) -

It all comes back to the size of the GB editorial staff. Five, sometimes seven dudes can't be expected to be an expert on every type of game and give every game a representation that satisfies fans of each unique subgenre. If you want that, you should check out some more niche sites. It doesn't fit with GB's MO of more personality-driven games coverage. Now as far as the Secret World is concerned, I think Jeff satisfied the interests of 99% of Bombcast listeners with his descriptions and criticism. Now we all know a little bit more about what the Secret World is and if it might be something we are into. The 1% he might not have satisfied are Secret World fans and MMO superfans who already know plenty about it.

#43 Posted by Jimbo (9863 posts) -

X.P. Wowington - MMORPG Expert, at your service.

#44 Posted by SgtGrumbles (1024 posts) -

@bvilleneuve said:

@CaLe said:

@CL60 said:

@CaLe

Jeff has put some serious time into MMOs so it's not like he's unfamiliar with the genre or anything. He can talk about them like he can talk about any other type of game he has played a lot of, and for most listeners that's plenty. Anyone could come in and tell the guys to get an expert in a particular area they are interested in, Jeff himself brought the idea up in one of his Jar Times, but for the most part they do a fine job in giving a quick honest impression. More people would be bored by a detailed explanation of an MMO than those who would find it interesting.

But Jeff clearly does not enjoy MMOs or social interaction with people in them, Jeff being the MMO guy would be like me critiquing RTS games even though all of them bore me to tears. I don't like the genre, so I stay away from it.

If he didn't like them he wouldn't have bought a lifetime subscription to one or put more than 100 hours into some others. He seems pretty neutral and that's more interesting for me than to listen to someone with vested interests in particular genres. Plenty of people play MMOs without doing anything that requires social interaction, which is why many try to cater for those players.

I've articulated this before, but I don't think the Star Trek lifetime subscription means he doesn't not like MMOs, it means he likes Star Trek. And the 100 hours into SWTOR was more about needing something mindless to do for an extended period of time than about liking MMOs.

The Secret World's reception has something valuable to teach us all about video game criticism. I've heard two opinions on it so far. Jeff's was relatively negative, while Adam Smith of RPS enjoyed it a lot more. Oh no! Where does that leave me, the consumer? My next step (as should be the case with every consumer everywhere) was to compare myself to the two critics. I dislike MMO mechanics (like Jeff), but I think that Ragnar Tornquist is incredibly talented (like Adam). Jeff says that the MMO mechanics are firmly entrenched in TSW and that the puzzles are overly opaque, Adam says that the puzzles are awesome and unique and that the writing is incredible, and that the mechanics aren't bad but they're nothing really special. I take these two opinions, I synthesize them with my own previous experiences, and I come to the conclusion that I will definitely try out The Secret World eventually but that it's not really a priority right now.

The black and white worldview that gets confused when it hears conflicting critical information is one of the things that gaming as a community needs to get away from to really help the medium mature.

Goddamn I wish more people realised this, the internet would be a much calmer place.

#45 Posted by alternate (2713 posts) -

What is the starting salary, $40k a year? Yeah, well worth them hiring someone to cover MMOs, that will really boost traffic.

#46 Posted by Gaff (1814 posts) -

@ModerateViolence said:

@bvilleneuve said:

@CaLe said:

@CL60 said:

@CaLe

Jeff has put some serious time into MMOs so it's not like he's unfamiliar with the genre or anything. He can talk about them like he can talk about any other type of game he has played a lot of, and for most listeners that's plenty. Anyone could come in and tell the guys to get an expert in a particular area they are interested in, Jeff himself brought the idea up in one of his Jar Times, but for the most part they do a fine job in giving a quick honest impression. More people would be bored by a detailed explanation of an MMO than those who would find it interesting.

But Jeff clearly does not enjoy MMOs or social interaction with people in them, Jeff being the MMO guy would be like me critiquing RTS games even though all of them bore me to tears. I don't like the genre, so I stay away from it.

If he didn't like them he wouldn't have bought a lifetime subscription to one or put more than 100 hours into some others. He seems pretty neutral and that's more interesting for me than to listen to someone with vested interests in particular genres. Plenty of people play MMOs without doing anything that requires social interaction, which is why many try to cater for those players.

I've articulated this before, but I don't think the Star Trek lifetime subscription means he doesn't not like MMOs, it means he likes Star Trek. And the 100 hours into SWTOR was more about needing something mindless to do for an extended period of time than about liking MMOs.

The Secret World's reception has something valuable to teach us all about video game criticism. I've heard two opinions on it so far. Jeff's was relatively negative, while Adam Smith of RPS enjoyed it a lot more. Oh no! Where does that leave me, the consumer? My next step (as should be the case with every consumer everywhere) was to compare myself to the two critics. I dislike MMO mechanics (like Jeff), but I think that Ragnar Tornquist is incredibly talented (like Adam). Jeff says that the MMO mechanics are firmly entrenched in TSW and that the puzzles are overly opaque, Adam says that the puzzles are awesome and unique and that the writing is incredible, and that the mechanics aren't bad but they're nothing really special. I take these two opinions, I synthesize them with my own previous experiences, and I come to the conclusion that I will definitely try out The Secret World eventually but that it's not really a priority right now.

The black and white worldview that gets confused when it hears conflicting critical information is one of the things that gaming as a community needs to get away from to really help the medium mature.

Goddamn I wish more people realised this, the internet would be a much calmer place.

Don't be ridiculous, it's the internet. It will find a way to moan about everything.

#47 Posted by Karkarov (3173 posts) -

These replies are hilarious. Seriously people if they sent some dude who didn't know jack about FPS games or was openly honest about not liking FPS games in general to do the review of the newest battlefield or COD this site would explode with fanboi rage. MMO's are not a "niche" 10 million freakin people play WoW alone and SWtOR has probably sold around 3 million copies by now and isn't even a year old. The least they could do is bother sending someone who actually plays mmo's regularly to review the things or do quick looks. Meanwhile despite the fact that MMO's have many of the same gameplay elements (totally unlike those FPS games or Dungeon Hacks like Diablo) there is alot of variety to be found between different games. Not everything is a "korean mmo" or WoW.

#48 Posted by Getz (3094 posts) -

Yeah, the way I see it Jeff has played most of the MMOs that come out, so even if he doesn't like a lot of them he still knows a lot about them. Every so often we get these forum threads with people calling for an "expert" on whatever genre they feel isn't getting treated the way they want but the fact remains that Giant Bomb is not for them. If you want to be pandered to you can find that shit literally anywhere else on the web. If you think that Jeff's opinions of MMOs doesn't match with yours, either get out of your comfort zone and see his complaints for what they are (legitimate critique from an industry veteran) or go to another website.

#49 Posted by Doctorchimp (4078 posts) -

@Jams: Their job isn't to sell me shit.

I like them because I know they have interests relevant to mine and I understand where they're coming from when they don't. Adding an MMORPG expert will do nothing for me, who would that be for? An MMO fan such as yourself would already be fucking playing an MMO they like. It's for nobody's benefit except maybe yours? So you don't feel ashamed in what you play? It's weird it's like when people clamor for a JRPG expert or a Japan expert, shit's silly.

You know Jeff is critical of MMOs at this point, as most people are. If he was like The Secret World has cool ideas, then guess what? It still has cool ideas. Everything you said did nothing to get me to play the game man.

#50 Posted by cthomer5000 (817 posts) -

Eh, while in an ideal world they might be able to cover every aspect of games, it doesn't really take anything away from the site. MMO fans will know these guys aren't authorities on MMORPGs... and so they wont be coming here for their MMO news and views.

They do almost no coverage of sports games releases either, but i don't let it get to me. I know i'm not coming to giantbomb.com for their discussion on FIFA 13, Madden's new physics engine, or NCAA football forgetting to put a team in the game.

On some occasions i think their lack of expertise in other gaming spheres does hamper their coverage, but it's really rare and probably impacts a very small percentage of their users.