The absence of a token Japanophile fact-checker hurts

@Darkpen said:

@FateOfNever said:

@Darkpen said:

@ick_bop said:

@Darkpen:

Patrick are just one step away from saying what's really on their minds: the faces of models that are designed off of Nomura's style, which itself is just shy of racism

Oops, you meant "almost, basically racist." Geeze, not only are you an ass, but you also seem to be suffering from alzheimer's.

You had a really hard time with critical thinking when you took your English/Lit. classes, didn't you. I can't believe you're serious.

As you oh-so enjoyed butchering my sentence, let me clarify it for you: The Nomura-hate collective hates the aesthetic that Square-Enix games "suffer" from under his visual brand of style, which is a style that ISN'T limited to simply "belts and zippers," but the homogenous nature of the CG models of the younger cast members in any games or animated films he's been involved with as a character designer. The homogeny of the faces, in turn, reflect a sense for a certain style or aesthetic in physical and facial beauty that is idealized in his style, but in turn suffer for the cultural dissonance that east-asian pop culture "androgeny" brings to western culture, where the disparity in appearance isn't as immediately clear (save just short of old men who look like lesbians, or teenage boys who look like girls).

Because of this, the Nomura-hate collective must stop short of their ambiguous "hatred" for his "style" with just bashing "belts and zippers," because to say more would risk someone else (such as yourself) from misinterpreting what I just typed above as being "racist."

If you're still misunderstanding what I'm saying, then I don't see how I could further assist you.

You are putting a lot of words in a lot of peoples mouths. Belts and zippers are a thing in his style. You are saying, between that and the first post he was pulling from, that because Nomura has a very, very distinct clothing style for a lot of his characters (something along the lines of Hot Topic) that people might not like, they're racist because actually they just hate the androgynous Japanese look to the characters? How the shit does that work?

No, there are people that have a serious problem with his art style and it has nothing to do with being afraid of his androgynous characters. Look at Akira Toriyama; he suffers from the same issue. It doesn't have to do with androgyny, it has to do with all of the characters looking the same. You can have a character that is androgynous in your cast, whatever. When seven out of eight characters in your game all look the same (regardless of androgyny) some people are bound to hate it. And that's not even getting into the clothing style that he really, really loves to put on characters.

Also, no, he's not doing a lot of misinterpreting of what you said as being "racist". You used that exact word in your original post. He can't misinterpret something when you specifically said it and implied it both at the same time.

As off topic as this is, I have to agree, though I feel like its the lack of articulation in the Nomura-hate collective that tends to annoy me more than not. Nomura's something of a catch-all scapegoat for "belts and zippers," but I feel like people like Patrick are just one step away from saying what's really on their minds: the faces of models that are designed off of Nomura's style,which itself is just shy of racism but no one dares to take that step that would lead someone to make such a leap of logic.

With everything you've said, it is not hard at all for someone to come to the conclusion that you have said that disliking Nomura's style is, more or less, racist. Which, honestly, is kind of disgusting to me.

This is amazing. You missed my point too? Wow, ok.

I'm not even talking about the androgeny. I'm not even saying that people who dislike Nomura's style of clothing on characters are racist. Holy shit, wow.

Okay, maybe I need to use less words or something:

Nomura's style is composed of two things: a manga-oriented homogenous (please look up this word for your own good) face style, and the ubiquity and oddity of both belts and zippers on clothing for lead characters. Often times, people focus on the latter, claiming absurdity. I am saying that as a collective, not individually (this is important), they stop short of criticizing the faces of "looking the same" in any deconstructional capacity lest they cause wrath and misplaced accusations of racism (such as your own).

You even MENTIONED how it had to do with how the characters looked the same. How did you miss me pointing to this specific point in my previous post? I do not understand.

How are you missing the part that I bolded where you said "just shy of racism"? Trying to insult me or my intelligence won't help you take back the words that you have said. You said in that instance, that disliking the faces of the models in Nomura's style is just shy or racist. You also said that people that are hating on Nomura's style are just saying "belts and zippers" because they don't want to go that extra step and say what really bugs them is the faces.

Here

Because of this, the Nomura-hate collective must stop short of their ambiguous "hatred" for his "style" with just bashing "belts and zippers," because to say more would risk someone else (such as yourself) from misinterpreting what I just typed above as being "racist."

Except that they wouldn't be misinterpreting what you typed because you also said

I feel like people like Patrick are just one step away from saying what's really on their minds: the faces of models that are designed off of Nomura's style,which itself is just shy of racism

So my question to you is, how are you not putting two and two together? You say that disliking the faces of Nomura's design is "just shy of racist" and then say "people that don't like his style have to stop on belts and zippers because saying anymore could be taken wrong" - i.e. taken to mean what you said, being racist. You put words in people's mouths by using the term "collective" (a unit of organization, a collective body) to say that everyone that hates Nomura's style actually just hates his face design and that they are just shy of racist for it.

It's pretty clear how people can take the things you have said in a very bad way and it has nothing to do with the intelligence of the people reading what you wrote. It may have something to do with the way you wrote what you were trying to say, however.

Edit: To clarify, because you might need it, this whole racist thing would have never been an issue if you had never used the word in the first place.

@Darkpen said:

@JoeyRavn said:

The use of the term "Japanophile fact-checker" bothers me a lot.

Sorry.

No problem. The thread itself is even more offensive.

Well, one podcast can't cater to all tastes I guess. Though it would be nice if GB had a more well rounded crew in terms of game preferences. I think Vinny is the closest you'll get to your "Japanophile." He put Dark Souls on his GoTY list after all!

Bombcast is my western games podcast. 8-4 play is my Japanese games podcast.

@Turambar said:

@Tennmuerti said:

Ah they get facts wrong like every bomcast. About many topics i care about.

After years I think i learned to zone 90% of those out. Tho once in a while something will still get me annoyed.

Well, it is kind of hard not to get annoyed when the bombcast crew goes into a group masturbatory anger session that is started by factually incorrect visual observation.

I agree with that. if they're going to rant, they should at least do some homework.

@FateOfNever: Then I apologize for not having been clear enough the first time. When I said "which is just shy of racism," I meant to imply "which is just shy of being called racist, or considered racist," rather than the direct act of racism or being actively racist. Its absurd to suggest that people who don't like Nomura's style to be racist just because of that, or infer as much. My wording was poor, but this was what I meant.

@JoeyRavn: And how's that.

@JoeyRavn said:

The use of the term "Japanophile fact-checker" bothers me a lot.

Why?

They really like to act like XIII was a massive failure that sold like shit or something, I mean the game sold well and critically did alright. Everyone is free to like what they like, my main issue is when they state fallacy as fact though. I am sure this previous sentence alone will infuriate people because I am saying something slightly negative about the bombcast so eh. To each their own.

Also considering that 13 came out nearly 2 years ago, there are other franchises that in my opinion need to take a break more than Final Fantasy - just saying.

@Lautaro said:

They really like to act like XIII was a massive failure that sold like shit or something, I mean the game sold well and critically did alright. Everyone is free to like what they like, my main issue is when they state fallacy as fact though. I am sure this previous sentence alone will infuriate people because I am saying something slightly negative about the bombcast so eh. To each their own.

Also considering that 13 came out nearly 2 years ago, there are other franchises that in my opinion need to take a break more than Final Fantasy - just saying.

I think the problem is just how dishonest hype can be to a review. GTA4, for instance, had a gigantic backlash, but its metacritic score will forever reflect the hype and no one will know any better without the context of that. It also doesn't help that the Final Fantasy brand has become something of a poster child for Japanese games (whereas Mario or even Metal Gear isn't viewed in the same light).

@Darkpen:

There was no mention of concept art whatsoever. I just listened to that section again to make sure. But my point remains that if you're going to criticize someone for anything you'd better get what they said or did right before you complain about it. That and your holocaust reference a few pages back completely robs your argument of all validity for me.

@ick_bop: ...18:50? What in the world are you listening to? What kind of time stamp is that?

Re-listening to that part, you're right, as someone ELSE in the thread already pointed out, he's referring to the text in the intro, not actual character art.

Well excuse me for misinterpreting that small bit. It doesn't change the absurdity of his rant, and the thread still stands.

Congrats on debunking me on that, though. Too bad you're such a child about it.

@themightymonarch: Aw man, I was waiting for someone to call me out on the holocaust quote, though I hope my point wasn't lost on you. To take one's pitiful bullied suffering, only to jump onto someone else's the moment the attention is taken away from you? Elementary school stuff. It was only in response to the canadian, but the lack of backbone about it is certainly troubling.

One of the charms of the podcast (or any gaming podcast) is fleeting thoughts such as that, and would have been chalked up to being a podcast, but here? So serious.

@Darkpen: Then I would say you probably never should have used the word in the first place. I really don't think very many people would actually draw the conclusion that complaining about the faces all being the same would be like being racist. I on multiple occasions have complained about Nomura's characters all looking the same and no one's ever accused me of being racist. It's not just their faces though. It's their faces and their hair (when everyone has amazing, feathery, spikey hair, everyone looks like they're trying to look like each other) and their clothing and their personalities (in the same game not every character will have the same personality, but if you look at FF7 and most of the games he's been involved with since then, characters all feel the same.)

I get where some of the style comes from though, Japan loves their somewhat 'wild' clothing styles and everything. When, as a society, they have to dress a certain way most of the time (between business suits, school uniforms, traditional clothing, so on, so forth) the urge to go big with their style when they have the chance to, I get it. Not everyone goes that way with it, but when people do, I get it. I've seen enough of it even just attending a school with uniforms. When you put that into character design, however, and it ends up on more than 50% of the characters in most of the games a company has put out, but the world around them isn't equally like that, it gets old. If that makes sense. That sentence started to get away from me some.

I guess I look at it like this - in The World Ends With You the zippers and buckles outfits make sense to me. The world around them encourages it. The characters visit clothing stores that are themed that way, they are building this up as a world, or at least a city, where that kind of clothing makes sense to me. Or if you designed a game that had a very heavy sort of "emo"/"hot topic"/"whatever you want to call it because I feel like there is a better way to describe it but I can't tihnk of it" aesthetics to it, it would make sense. When you make a world where normal people don't walk around wearing buckles and zippers that much but the all of the main characters go really far out with their clothing, and this happens for sixteen years of games, it gets really old. Especially when it doesn't feel like the style of the characters or the clothing or the personalities have evolved or changed that much over the years.

I think people would have the same complaints if, say, Final Fantasy games for the last sixteen years all have the majority of their cast looking like Greasers. Or if every character for the last five games all looked like samurai, or ninjas, or storm troopers, or heavy goths, or whatever. When you're stuck with one style for so long it starts to feel like Nomura just doesn't have any range in his design. It starts to feel like he has a style, and he has something he likes to do with his style, and he doesn't ever want to do anything else with that style. But that has more to do with him liking a particular clothing style for his characters.

@Darkpen:

"Boy, I sure wish I could shit on Patrick some more, but he hasn't done anything to offend my internet sensitivities, what can I do? OH! I'll make up some completely untrue shit and act all outraged over it! Yay, racism and the holocaust!"

Yeah, I'm the child.

@Darkpen:

No your point was completely lost on me. A gaming podcast talking about a long running Japanese video game series is absolutely nothing like the holocaust. There is no comparison.

@Darkpen: I get where you're coming from. Sorry you're catching so much flak for this.

It's not just Japanese games with Patrick. He seems willing to spurt uneducated and cynical opinions concerning games of just about any variety. I mean, look at how badly he bashed SWTOR despite not having played it, and his really only criticism of it was that it was an MMO and that's not what he thought it was going to be (why he thought this, I have no fucking idea).

@ick_bop said:

@Darkpen:

"Boy, I sure wish I could shit on Patrick some more, but he hasn't done anything to offend my internet sensitivities, what can I do? OH! I'll make up some completely untrue shit and act all outraged over it! Yay, racism and the holocaust!"

Yeah, I'm the child.

Nice generalizations. A for effort.

@FateOfNever said:

@Darkpen: Then I would say you probably never should have used the word in the first place. I really don't think very many people would actually draw the conclusion that complaining about the faces all being the same would be like being racist. I on multiple occasions have complained about Nomura's characters all looking the same and no one's ever accused me of being racist. It's not just their faces though. It's their faces and their hair (when everyone has amazing, feathery, spikey hair, everyone looks like they're trying to look like each other) and their clothing and their personalities (in the same game not every character will have the same personality, but if you look at FF7 and most of the games he's been involved with since then, characters all feel the same.)

I get where some of the style comes from though, Japan loves their somewhat 'wild' clothing styles and everything. When, as a society, they have to dress a certain way most of the time (between business suits, school uniforms, traditional clothing, so on, so forth) the urge to go big with their style when they have the chance to, I get it. Not everyone goes that way with it, but when people do, I get it. I've seen enough of it even just attending a school with uniforms. When you put that into character design, however, and it ends up on more than 50% of the characters in most of the games a company has put out, but the world around them isn't equally like that, it gets old. If that makes sense. That sentence started to get away from me some.

I guess I look at it like this - in The World Ends With You the zippers and buckles outfits make sense to me. The world around them encourages it. The characters visit clothing stores that are themed that way, they are building this up as a world, or at least a city, where that kind of clothing makes sense to me. Or if you designed a game that had a very heavy sort of "emo"/"hot topic"/"whatever you want to call it because I feel like there is a better way to describe it but I can't tihnk of it" aesthetics to it, it would make sense. When you make a world where normal people don't walk around wearing buckles and zippers that much but the all of the main characters go really far out with their clothing, and this happens for sixteen years of games, it gets really old. Especially when it doesn't feel like the style of the characters or the clothing or the personalities have evolved or changed that much over the years.

I think people would have the same complaints if, say, Final Fantasy games for the last sixteen years all have the majority of their cast looking like Greasers. Or if every character for the last five games all looked like samurai, or ninjas, or storm troopers, or heavy goths, or whatever. When you're stuck with one style for so long it starts to feel like Nomura just doesn't have any range in his design. It starts to feel like he has a style, and he has something he likes to do with his style, and he doesn't ever want to do anything else with that style. But that has more to do with him liking a particular clothing style for his characters.

Mmm. The problem is that when I look at the Final Fantasy series of the past decade and a half, I don't see Nomura, but instead I see FF9, FF11 Online, FF12, and any other number of spinoffs or variants that weren't involving Nomura, so I personally find the whole issue absurd to begin with. But I certainly see what you mean, and it has a lot to do with frill over function. When I look at even early Nomura stuff, like FF8, sure, there are belts and zippers, but its within practical means. There's an argument that someone could make about him being a bad character designer, but then you have to begin asking just how much influence he actually had in their design when looking at the credits and released concept art that is clearly not drawn by Nomura.

The larger problem that I think is blinding everyone is just how long 13 was in development hell and in the presence and minds of the gaming public, causing fatigue with people needing someone to blame. The FF diehards will blame Motomu Toriyama, while the uninformed blame Nomura. The ubiquity of Nomura's touch on various products was a point of embarrassment to even himself, as revealed in an interview a few years ago.

If Nomura was listed as art director for each of these games, that'd be one thing, but he's not. He gets that credit in the startup because he clearly holds some serious sway, or at least the company has abused him to that degree.

Anyways, that's all I can think of.

@mazik765:

Jesus, read what themightymonarch and I posted, Patrick didn't actually say the thing that this...person is accusing him of.

I think a lot of you guys need to stop posting and do something else. The anger expressed here is disproportionate to anything that anyone has claimed to have set them off.

@mazik765 said:

It's not just Japanese games with Patrick. He seems willing to spurt uneducated and cynical opinions concerning games of just about any variety. I mean, look at how badly he bashed SWTOR despite not having played it, and his really only criticism of it was that it was an MMO and that's not what he thought it was going to be (why he thought this, I have no fucking idea).

A lot if it sounds to me like he read popular opinions on message boards, assumed that cause they were popular they were right/smart/made him seem cool or well versed or whatever, and then just repeats them as his own, even though everyone knows that shit on the internet, especially user posted opinion shit, is often horribly misinformed.

@themightymonarch: What the hell? What are you even talking about? I think you're either lost, or I've lost you, or both.

@ick_bop said:

@mazik765:

Jesus, read what themightymonarch and I posted, Patrick didn't actually say the thing that this...person is accusing him of.

You mean the one example he used was false, but he and others have posted more since then.

@Darkpen said:

@themightymonarch: What the hell? What are you even talking about? I think you're either lost, or I've lost you, or both.

I think he was responding to ick_bop and replied to the wrong person.

Man, I did I shitty job shaving today.

@DystopiaX: No... I think he's just taking a racy and far-too-subtle comment I made and is either missing the point... or is missing the point and then missing that even further.

edit: here's what I said:

@david3cm said:

Their ignorance and hate is why I love the bombcast. I know it sucks when they talk shit on things you like, me being from Canada I feel some flak every now and again, but personally since I have zero interest in JRPG's I love when they shit on Final Fantasy.

I'm mildly reminded of that holocaust quote that goes something along the lines of "first they came for the ____, and I did not protest. Then they came for the ____, and I did not protest, [...] and when they came for me, there was no one left to protest for me."

But that's just my mind wandering. Like the Bombcast! Butchering quotes and make leaps, aw yeah.

I don't see how this has to do with a gaming podcast talking about a long-running jrpg, either.

Ignorance is bliss in this case, as I hold the exact same opinions as they do regarding most Japanese game design.

@Darkpen: Yes, you lost me a while ago.

@DystopiaX: No, I replied to the right person. My point was by referencing both the holocaust and the "First they came for the communists..." statement or poem or whatever you want to call it, and then saying the Bombcast was like that because there's no one to speak up for Final Fantasy/Nomura is to reach a level of hyperbole that I despise. Having no one to speak up for Nomura is nothing like what the Nazi's did to millions.

@Tim_the_Corsair said:

Ignorance is bliss in this case, as I hold the exact same opinions as they do regarding most Japanese game design.

Curious thing to say, especially with so many other posters pointing out that the crew loves Japanese game design, e.g. Persona 4, Deadly Premonition, Chrono Trigger (as far as Endurance Runs go), though of course it isn't a love that's understandably unanimous.

@themightymonarch said:

@Darkpen: Yes, you lost me a while ago.

@DystopiaX: No, I replied to the right person. My point was by referencing both the holocaust and the "First they came for the communists..." statement or poem or whatever you want to call it, and then saying the Bombcast was like that because there's no one to speak up for Final Fantasy/Nomura is to reach a level of hyperbole that I despise. Having no one to speak up for Nomura is nothing like what the Nazi's did to millions.

...fine but that shit makes no sense/relies on people drawing obscure parallels made unclear by your writing. It's not that I didn't get that reference, because I do know it, but your statement didn't really reference it at all. Also don't get why people are focusing on the FF bit when the OP is talking more in general anyway.

@DystopiaX: Exactly, it makes no sense. So why did the OP bring it up to begin with? And we're all focusing on Final Fantasy because the Final Fantasy 13-2 section of the podcast is what started this whole thing.

@DystopiaX: My intention was for it to be more of a general discussion, but people asked for an example, and my first example was a wrong one, even if the general point still stands. Without going through each bombcast episode ever and cataloguing every instance that the kind of things that people are pointing out, its difficult to really make a true case beyond an angry and generalized thread about it.

@themightymonarch said:

@Darkpen: Yes, you lost me a while ago.

@DystopiaX: No, I replied to the right person. My point was by referencing both the holocaust and the "First they came for the communists..." statement or poem or whatever you want to call it, and then saying the Bombcast was like that because there's no one to speak up for Final Fantasy/Nomura is to reach a level of hyperbole that I despise. Having no one to speak up for Nomura is nothing like what the Nazi's did to millions.

Hahahaha, oh man, is that what you interpreted my quoting of that to mean? Hardly. I was making reference to the person I was quoting in response to, not the bombcast. Goodness, me. If I was referencing the podcast, it was the podcast format's nature of people's mind's to wander with such off-cuff remarks, as I believe I hinted to. Nothing so deep as yours.

Please reassess that post with this new information.

The podcast is free and isn't going to be tailored to you and never should be, the second any form of media starts to cater to its fans instead of sticking to what brought people there in the first place they've lost their way.

I'd rather he talked shit about any and all games and caused drama than be stiff and boring.

I'm pretty sure there is a video where Vinny states this site is entertainment first and informative second, if you come here purely to be informed or have stopped enjoying it, then it's probably not or never was for you.

@DarkPen That was sort of my point - my main issues when it comes to Japanese design tends to be art related or to do with outdated design decisions, which I seem to have in common with them.

@ModerateViolence said:

The podcast is free and isn't going to be tailored to you and never should be, the second any form of media starts to cater to its fans instead of sticking to what brought people there in the first place they've lost their way.

And I would hope that they wouldn't, but that certainly doesn't mean that there isn't room for improvement in general. If the Bombcast truly had their way, they'd still have a food segment and complaints like mine would mean nothing in comparison to others.

I hope everyone caught my biting subtext.

@Tim_the_Corsair: Fair enough.

@Benny said:

I'd rather he talked shit about any and all games and caused drama than be stiff and boring.

I'm pretty sure there is a video where Vinny states this site is entertainment first and informative second, if you come here purely to be informed or have stopped enjoying it, then it's probably not or never was for you.

I like how many people keep coming up and offering ways in which its "not for me," as if there's never room for improvement or changes have never occurred from user feedback.

I clearly like the show, and have repeatedly expressed that I have no delusions that anything said in this thread will actually affect the bombcast, but whatever.

@Darkpen:

Fair point and you're right, rereading what you said I interpreted it wrong. But now that I've read it again, it seems like you're saying that you're like a holocaust victim because no one in this thread is sticking up for you. And that's even worse.

@ModerateViolence: lol

I think I've been refreshing this thread for the past 2 hours or something, but I need to sleep. I think everyone's expressed one thing or another, and I hope it's proven cathartic for some as it has for me. If not, then I'm sorry for wasting your evening (or morning?).

@themightymonarch said:

@Darkpen:

Fair point and you're right, rereading what you said I interpreted it wrong. But now that I've read it again, it seems like you're saying that you're like a holocaust victim because no one in this thread is sticking up for you. And that's even worse.

Oh my goodness, no. It was simply an absurd commentary on the quoted person's regard to point out how his canadian-ism has been attacked in the past, but is more than willing to jump on the back of others while they're "down."

I have had plenty of people stick up for me, or see my point in this thread.

You are a part of a very small and quickly shrinking niche of gamers. AKA they don't care about you or what tiny, insignificant things annoy you. Deal with it.

Jeff said it best: Anime is for Jerks.

To sum up this thread we have mostly two sides of people.

1. People who have different opinions than the Bomb-crew and say that they are wrong even though it is pretty much all opinions.

2. People who agree with the Bomb-crew and defends them.

I think the first group just needs to realize and accept that this isn't the place for intelligent discussion on Japanese games and culture by the Bomb-crew.

Darkpen,

You're missing several levels of nuance if you think that the GB crew was doing anything other than calling out played out, meaningless designs in everything from enemies to font, irritating music and clichéd over-exaggerated ridiculous nonsense storylines and pointlessly whiny, dramatic, and annoying characters that has so clearly become a trend among certain current-gen mainstream JRPGs. Lost Odyssey, Last Story, Last Rebellion, Resonance of Fate, and especially, especially The Last Remnant. Even the names are robbed of meaning by how same-y they are.

If the art of all these is such that you could place all in the same game universe and not bat an eye, that has some very damning implications about that school of game design.

These are the types of trends that a reviewer would feel far more strongly about because there are so many games that they have reviewed that have copped that same aesthetic. If you could ignore it when playing FF13, good for you, but it's irrelevant in the face of questions such as:

"Why design a world in which there is no aesthetic standard in that world's game elements setting that world apart from those of my competitors?"

"Is my game's fate-of-the-world mission a fun story or is it a Lord of the Rings/Beowulf/Gilgamesh/Old Testament mishmash of fantastical nonsense?"

Persona 4, a game that answers those questions with better answers, was without contest the larger breakout JRPG success of recent memory in terms of critical acclaim. Yes, it sold something like 600k copies to FF13's 5.5 million, apparently continuing the rumored trend of 60% first day sales. Guitar Hero went from selling 1.5 million in its first week to its latest iteration selling 86k copies in the span of four years.

Even other SMT games didn't have quite the same art direction that P3 and 4 used. The visual design of everything in the world of Persona 4 not only had a definable purpose, but moreover took tired tropes like Japanese school uniforms (that old chestnut, the High School Anime/Manga) and at least made them seem relatively different.

Reviewers, and by way of extrapolation, some of the general public outside of JRPG diehards, were able to enjoy it in a way that is easily attributed to these aspects, thus earning P4 the wide appeal needed to earn a top review score and cement their brand.

P4 is a game in which you are guided through a small-town serial murder mystery in which people die after they appear on local television at midnight. You and others have the ability to summon manifestations of your/their personality, but you alone are free to capture spirits you encounter. Your world, consisting of a school and small town, has a clear, easily definable purpose.

I find these two links explain the appeal of Final Fantasy 13.http://forums.gametrailers.com/thread/ff13-story-makes-no-sense--spo/1112083http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tmC9H3fLTI&feature=related

Rather than "ignorance and apathy... hate and dismissal", I heard a brusquely expressed desire that these types of games either justify the worlds they've created or design worlds that matter. The Final Fantasy series will eventually have to inject substance into the franchise to sustain their business model of pouring money into increasingly dated CG.

The matter of when exactly they will do so is mostly up to the market, of course.

The next Final Fantasy game: an multi-million-strong international group of teenage Linkin Park AMV making Final Fantasy fans must determine the fate of their favorite franchise. The final boss is Meg Ryan as Tidus.

@Enigma777: I know I said I was going to sleep, but I just have to reply to this one last one...

First, I find it amusing that you feel that way, when in reality everything is a niche. You can look at Modern Warfare 3 numbers and make all of the "bro-gamer" jokes that the internet can provide, but its still a niche.

Second, why do you feel so compelled to discredit or condescend towards another group of gamers? If anything, I can extrapolate some insecurity that you have in your hobby of choice, which is honestly something you should probably deal with. I find it very curious that you've clumped me with this "group" you speak of. I don't believe I ever expressed my general tastes or whom I identify with at any point in this thread.

Finally, this is a message board. Its meant for messaging and rants. "Deal with it."

@I_smell said:

@Darkpen said: .

@BoOzak said:

I think the site would benefit from having someone on staff (Vinny and Ryan's shaky DBZ knowledge doesnt count) who doesnt hate anime. But then again it's their job to write about/play videogames, and they're pretty good at it. On a related note I think 13-2's character design is fucking garbage. And with the exception of Hope and Vanille I didnt mind 13's characters.

This is the large point that I kind of wanted to get at, but didn't. I ultimately don't mind them getting shit wrong: afterall, this is the fucking Skyrim-palooza-cast, not Obscure-portable-JRPG-cast; I have shows to listen to for that kind of talk. What you point out is part of a larger weakness for the site, which is the absence of someone who doesn't outright hate anime or has general apathy for anime. While this is a site for videogames, you cannot deny the strong connection that anime holds over many Japanese games that may or may not make it over here.

I realize that Giant Bomb's website philosophy is "we only do coverage for games we're interested in," but if that were the case they why bother with 13-2 at all, or is it a morbid curiosity like Blackwater. It speaks to a larger problem than simply anything having to do with the podcast itself.

To be fair: the guys are way into Persona, Chrono Trigger, and all fighting games. There's a tonne of Japanese games the site likes, like Bayonetta, Catherine, Zelda, Vanquish, Half-Minute Hero- they've done loads of Quick Looks for games I've never heard of. I think they give Japanese games as much of a fair shake as anything else, and I don't think they NEED someone who likes anime. They just don't like Final Fantasy any more because it's a pretty tired game with pretty boring characters, regardless of whether or not you hate anime. This is not a "larger problem" or a "deficit" or a "desperate need" for anything. The site's not broken just because nobody on-staff wants to play Final Fantasy Dissidia, that's actually pretty natural.

They don't have anyone who covers sports games either, and nobody really gives a shit. Hint hint.

And their philosophy is that they cover the games that matter. Obviously they're doing a quick look of FInal Fantasy 13-2 because it's a Final Fantasy game.

This, definitely. While Jeff and the others have long since moved on from Final Fantasy, Brad seems to be the only one (and I guess to a lesser extent, Patrick) that's still willing to give the franchise a fair shake. Personally, I'm surprised Brad is willing to finish XIII-2, and he seems to be looking forward to it from the quick look. Plus, I'm pretty sure not all of them hate or have a general apathy for anime. And yes, I'm pretty sure Vinny and Ryan know about anime outside their "extensive" knowledge of Dragon Ball. I've heard them mention other anime shows occasionally.

I'm getting kinda off-topic, but w/e.

Nilo and FateOfNever dropping truth in this thread.

@Nilo: Dammit, ok, last post, I swear.

I really want to read your post, but I am dead tired, but thank you for writing all of that stuff. I just want to say that my problem wasn't with their opinions on design philosophy, as that's another subject entirely, and indeed that's their opinion. From what I could skim of your post, its about design philosophy and design differences, and GB's discussion and past discussion of this. That's not what this thread was about, but I appreciate your post from what I've read.

This thread was about general lack of homework done by some of the crew members during the podcast (and as later pointed out by others in the thread, this complaint can be extended to Quicklooks), and their tendency to make very factually wrong comments and then run off the rails with them. Sometimes it hits a nerve, sometimes not. Sometimes the OP gets angry about something that he was entirely wrong about, sometimes not. But the complaint as a general issue still stands.

I don't hold their opinions against them, and opinions on general game design is something that is very difficult to be "wrong" about (unless your name is Dean Takahashi). I just wish Patrick wouldn't be so quick to start a hate pile when compared to the rest of the crew, especially if this hate is such a generalized one with internet bias.

I wish people in the GB community would accept that not all criticism of the guys is a personal attack or an attack on the site.

I wish people who criticise GB and the guys would do so on a more measured, less ranty, less whiny manner.

I wish people on both sides would refrain from piling on the overly defensive or overly aggressive posts. If somebody else has said the same thing you think, reiterating it brings nothing to the table.

On the topic at hand, yep, I kind of sort of agree that the group as a whole has a tendency to take things for granted and if most people agree on the same issue they will accept it as fact, accuracy be damned. That sometimes turns into "this is just BAD" rants that can be moderately annoying if you disagree.

...which is perfectly normal, on the other hand. All groups of people sort of work like that, and GB's "reality show" take on gaming coverage kind of encourages that. Doesn't mean I have to like it, but taking their opinions with a grain of salt and a lot of patience sort of comes with the territory.

This whole thread is weird to me, because Nomura's art style, which seems to be the crux of the issue, is about the least interesting thing in the debate about the Japanese/Western gaming divide, and I agree that the GB crew is not too open to seeing the Japanese situation in a particularly informed manner, content with assuming Japanese gaming is weird and moving on.

@Nilo: You hit the nail on the head. Teenage, AMV making, Linkin Park fans sum up the audience all too well.

It should come as no surprise that people dislike the "I fight for my friends!" cliches and D-rate anime stylings of the FF series. The questionable character designs of Tetsuya Nomura act as mere icing on the cake.

I was more annoyed by Patrick's comments about Chrono Cross.