Why I got brain cancer from the Bombcast.

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Edited By Ping5000

E3 Day Two: Leigh Alexander's spiel on MGS4 and Hideo Kojima.


I understand she loves the Metal Gear series and I understand she loves Hideo Kojima.

The problem, I guess, lies in the fact that she was Too Human. Oh. I just did a Leigh. I think.

Obviously, I disagree with how she went about MGS4, not the specifics. The standard of scrutiny that was set for that game alone was beyond the beyond. The only reason so many obviously obfuscated details were extrapolated from MGS4 was because of her reverence for Hideo Kojima.

So, that leads to my general issue: Is this fair? Hideo Kojima, Shigeru Miyamoto, Chris Avellone, Suda 51 and so on and so forth -- they're well-known developers and when someone realizes that a big name is attached to a project, the game suddenly becomes "That game from that guy." and not "That game that is a game."

This in itself is fine, but once you tack this detail onto reviews, it suddenly becomes an issue. I know, we're human, but once the game becomes more than just a game, there's an initial bias, a pervasive one that will either tilt overall feelings from glee and ecstacy or mega-disappointment because the developer failed to live up to his usual standards.

I know I've done this. I love Valve. Besides the whole fiasco with Left 4 Dead 2 considered to be too early, their games are attatched with quality and I bring those expectactions with me when I play their games. Leigh Alexander has only helped me realize how unfair that can be by showing the most extreme and lop-sided face of it. Thank you.

So no, of course it isn't fair. It isn't fair at all. It puts well-regarded developers in a bind, where they suddenly need to match pre-concieved expectations just because their last game was delicious and awesome. Then again, names are a big deal and when we all hear that BioWare is making something, we all start to care. This thing is just confusing. I don't know where I'm going with this anymore. This can go on forever. I'm hungry. Oh and I think BioWare games are a bit overrated. I am totally aware of how hypocritical I am being right now. I am so hungry, though.

Besides, Hideo Kojima needs to take a look at a goddamn dictionary, because he either needs some fresh and better writers or just not write anything ever.

Hook, line and...
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Ping5000

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#1  Edited By Ping5000

E3 Day Two: Leigh Alexander's spiel on MGS4 and Hideo Kojima.


I understand she loves the Metal Gear series and I understand she loves Hideo Kojima.

The problem, I guess, lies in the fact that she was Too Human. Oh. I just did a Leigh. I think.

Obviously, I disagree with how she went about MGS4, not the specifics. The standard of scrutiny that was set for that game alone was beyond the beyond. The only reason so many obviously obfuscated details were extrapolated from MGS4 was because of her reverence for Hideo Kojima.

So, that leads to my general issue: Is this fair? Hideo Kojima, Shigeru Miyamoto, Chris Avellone, Suda 51 and so on and so forth -- they're well-known developers and when someone realizes that a big name is attached to a project, the game suddenly becomes "That game from that guy." and not "That game that is a game."

This in itself is fine, but once you tack this detail onto reviews, it suddenly becomes an issue. I know, we're human, but once the game becomes more than just a game, there's an initial bias, a pervasive one that will either tilt overall feelings from glee and ecstacy or mega-disappointment because the developer failed to live up to his usual standards.

I know I've done this. I love Valve. Besides the whole fiasco with Left 4 Dead 2 considered to be too early, their games are attatched with quality and I bring those expectactions with me when I play their games. Leigh Alexander has only helped me realize how unfair that can be by showing the most extreme and lop-sided face of it. Thank you.

So no, of course it isn't fair. It isn't fair at all. It puts well-regarded developers in a bind, where they suddenly need to match pre-concieved expectations just because their last game was delicious and awesome. Then again, names are a big deal and when we all hear that BioWare is making something, we all start to care. This thing is just confusing. I don't know where I'm going with this anymore. This can go on forever. I'm hungry. Oh and I think BioWare games are a bit overrated. I am totally aware of how hypocritical I am being right now. I am so hungry, though.

Besides, Hideo Kojima needs to take a look at a goddamn dictionary, because he either needs some fresh and better writers or just not write anything ever.

Hook, line and...
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#2  Edited By trophyhunter

she was basically a troll

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#3  Edited By jakob187

Alright, let's get something clear:  Leigh Alexander is NOT from a developer, NOT from a publisher, and therefore, she didn't have any games to push and what not.  In turn, she jabbered just like the guys do on the Bombcast on a weekly basis.  Did she continue on forever and ever?  Yes, for about an hour it seemed.  She even apologized on her blog for being so crazy and rambling on it.  She's a journalist that had some things to say, and she got to say them.


Does it mean I enjoyed that Bombcast?  No, not really.  I'm not going to get all bent about her jabbering, though...even if it DID go on forever.
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Ping5000

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#4  Edited By Ping5000
@jakob187: Oh, that's perfectly clear to me. I said that her jibber jabber was just fine. I used that as a jump off point to what I wanted to really talk about.
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@trophyhunter said:
" she was basically a troll "
Podcast troll 
Thread/
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JazzyJeff

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#6  Edited By JazzyJeff

I totally get what you're saying about games being "game from that guy." A lot of movies work the same way. I mean, we should recognize the people behind these projects, but I the names attached sway many people's opinions. Someone like David Lynch can make a movie that's completely horrible, but will get praised by some just because it's David Lynch.

Same with game designers. Kojima could make a game about him taking a shit and there is a group of people who would love it. "The turd falling into the water is symbolic of Snake falling down in MGS4."

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#7  Edited By fr0br0

Jakob took the words right out of my mouth. The girl runs a blog where the point is to talk about her opinion. This is where she stands in the video game industry, to voice her opinion on what she likes, give an explanation and try to relay it to others. I had no problem with her doing this.

As for the constant comments she gave, that was mostly due to her being drunk. I can't really blame her for that...

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Pibo47

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#8  Edited By Pibo47

I now hate that lady. Annoying and ass kissy towards MGS for my tastes.

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#9  Edited By TheGremp

God, don't remind me about that Ear-hurt.  The second that she said "OHAY DIS IS LEIGH ALEXANDER!" I knew I was in for something deadly.  She was so drunk...  She didn't even catch on to the "Chucklehead" joke.

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Insectecutor

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#10  Edited By Insectecutor

God not this thread again. I thought some of her comments on MGS4 were quite well reasoned. I thought it was well understood that MGS games are a bit of a commentary on his opinions of the fans and the industry, and I barely even play them.

PS everyone shut up about Leigh. She knows she did wrong, we've had at least two massive threads on this already.

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Ping5000

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#11  Edited By Ping5000

I'm not really talking about Leigh, though.

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#12  Edited By jakob187
@Pibo47: Ass kissy towards MGS?  I could say the same thing about a TON of people on these forums...and other forums...and in the world...because frankly, that franchise is nothing more than 3 hours of gameplay and 18 hours of cutscenes per "game".  Regardless, that's her tastes.  Who are you to judge that?  I'm sure people could say the same thing about you and a game that you would treat the same way.

Also, Ping, I understood the point of what you were making.  I was just generally trying to tell people that they need to look at the position Leigh was in (not being a developer or publisher, but rather a journalist/blogger guest on the Bombcast) and to deal with it.  If you really want me to hit on that point you make about "that game by that guy", well...it's because names attached to games = hype.  It's about offering instant recognition to people.

For instance:

"Dood, Uwe Boll has a new movie coming out."  What is the automatic reaction to that?  That's right.  "Oh fuck, he's STILL making movies?"

Another example:

"Dood, Hideo Kojima is making the new Castlevania game."  What is the atuomatic reaction to that?  Yep.  "Whoa...I've GOTTA see this."

The same goes in movies and music...Hell, in almost all forms of entertainment media.  "Dood, Scorsese has a new movie coming out" or "Hey, I heard that Van Halen is getting together with Roth for a new album".  It doesn't matter what you do.  It's about carrying a certain recognition.  You can't blame people for name-dropping creative directors and masterminds and such when they have earned the right to have that name mentioned.  Granted, I also agree with JazzyJeff about how some people will automatically forgive shortcomings in a game, film, or music because of the name attached to it.  Just look at Spielberg.  The dood made Close Encounters, E.T., Schindler's List...and he also make Amistad and Munich, which were less than good movies.  Granted, those two movies are better than at least 70% of the trash we see on a regular basis, but for Spielberg, they were definitely low points.
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Hamz

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#13  Edited By Hamz

I suggest people go through and read the OP's post again and continue to do so until they realise this topic is simply using Leigh Alexander's comments on the Day2 E309 Bombcast as a starting point for him to break into a topic of discussion based around his own views on how we perceive video games.

Essentially this is not a place for everyone to come together and bash on Leigh. Do so at your own risk. You've all been warned.

As for the OP's point. I have to agree that not being a fan of the MGS series at all I still instantly think of Kojima the moment someone mentions a Metal Gear game. And with that always comes the issue of whether specific person X managed to live up to the heavy expectations people have for games they are associated with. For me personally I find the sheer amount of hype and interest over Kojima and the MGS series to be overrated and blown way out of proportion. I see the games as generic and poorly written to be honest. And that is sort of why I think some people have a jaded view when it comes to certain games. They look at it as "oh person X is associated to the game, clearly it WILL be a masterpiece!" and don't view the game for its own merits but rather for the merits of the person associated too it.

The less 'hero' worship the better I think.

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#14  Edited By HandsomeDead

The only thing I particularly enjoyed about the Day 2 podcast was Leigh's view on Hideo Kojima and the MGS franchise because she seemed spot on about all of that stuff, particularly on how badly Kojima's work is interpreted.

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#15  Edited By Jimbo

Hmmm, I think having a big name on a project generally ensures that the game will at least meet a minimum standard.  These guys aren't going to let a really poor game see the light of day, because maintaining their reputation is too important (personally and financially) - they'll delay or start over until they get it right.  Take away that name or brand and a publisher is more likely to just put it out as it is.

(Considering the thrust of this thread really has nothing to do with Leigh or the Bombcast, wouldn't Gen Disc be more appropriate?  Edit: and really the title doesn't represent the purpose of the thread either...)

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#16  Edited By Disgaeamad
@Hamz said:
"The less 'hero' worship the better I think. "
This sentence sums it up the best. As soon as a game starts getting hype due to the person that's worked on it, people refuse to see the reality that it might not be a so called "masterpiece" like one of their previous works, which brings around cries of "This game is a flop!" and "It doesn't live up to the expectations the other game set", even if it is a genuinely good game.

Judge a game based on what it itself has achieved, not what the developer has.
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#17  Edited By TheKidNixon

I actually think that the development of an "auteur" mystique around gaming is a good thing. Despite what your opinions of each individual game is, Hideo Kojima definitely has a style in and to himself: overly intricate plots, social and political commentary (if a touch heavy-handed), extended cut scenes, unexpected shifts in gameplay demands, etc. He is someone who really has made a name for himself. I think the same can be said for people like Suda 51, Hideki Kamiya, Sid Meiers and Wil Wright. I would posit that if each of these creators created a single game that was original IP, but put it out there without their name on it, we'd be able to tell which is which. The name isn't attached to the project as merely marketing; the name is attached to the project because it is fundamental to the way the game will be made. If someone says that a new Tarrentino movie is in production, I can get a good idea of what sort of elements will appear in that film. He has a definable style. David Lynch, who you mention, is another great example;  there is a throughline of creativity to his films that make them authentically his.

The reason why I think this shift of perspective towards lauding creators of games is important is because it shows a maturing of the art form into a point where we can distinguish and identify the goal of the creators. A lot of Leigh Alexander's analysis of MGS4 is informed by her knowledge of Kojima's history and work, so his attachment is relevant in that way. Furthmore, it also informs in what kind of game we're discussing. Bioware and Kojima Productions don't make the same game. Valve and Double Fine don't make the same game. And that isn't to say that those auteurs are above the need for criticism. But the distinguishing characteristics of those singular creators or creative teams I think creates an elevated conversation. When I say "This is a Kojima/Schafer/Dyack game," I mean more than merely the level of quality the title provides. That name because an short-hand for a broad group of adjectives that describe the game. In my opinion, it informs the conversation, rather than stifles it.

By the by, excellently written blogpost.

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walreese55

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#18  Edited By walreese55

What the hell is this? We're talking about video games here, not some elitist art bullshit. Who gives a fuck what developer it comes from. I like Mario because it's Mario, not Miyamoto. I like L4D even though I hate every other Valve game. The fact that you are even talking about this is creating more flame wars. This was never an issue to begin with. AS for Leigh Alexander, she's well-informed and has good opinions, but they are opinions that no one should give a shit about. She talked more about Second Life than anyone would ever want to know. No one gives a shit. Talk about stuf actually related to E3, which is the motherfucking point at E3. Listen to Carrie and Paul on Day 3: they actually talked about crap on E3. And I guarantee you not everyone there was sober.

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#19  Edited By jakob187

Hamz, I gotta say this to counter your argument:  Valve.  They are NOT infallible.  Yeah, they seem to consecutively make great games...even if I can point out some issues with all of them that aren't Portal.  However, if they announced a new IP right now, you'd be all over it...because it's Valve.  It wouldn't have to do with the merit of the game itself.


I do the same thing with Codemasters racing games.

Disgaea does the same with...well, Disgaea.

JRPG fans do it with Square Enix.

Fanfic wet-dream lovers do it with Kojima.

Regardless of whether you like it or not, every single person in the gaming industry can be found guilty of exactly what you are speaking against...including yourself.  It's about the quality of products attached to that name.  There are a fuckton of people that find quality attached to Kojima's name in every project he's ever made, and to some extent, I can agree with them.  While I might not like the MGS series, I can't deny that they do have some form of quality to them that exceeds so many other games.

Therefore, it's less about "hero worship" and more about showing respect and adoration for similar interests with a person who is capable of making those interests come true.
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#20  Edited By VWGTI

The Metal Gear Solid franchise is fantasic just like Lee feels, but where Lee rambled on about Kojima doing "this" and "that"  to purposely say "fuck you!' to the consumer was a bit much. Much like a movie director, Kojima makes games to enterain people and he enjoys what he does. I mean look at all of the MGS games since the PSX. They all have tons of long cutscenes that flesh out the story and thus have made the MGS frahcise what is it today. He may have something to say in the end, but I don't think he tries to make a game where he tries to say "fuck you" to the consumer.

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#21  Edited By jakob187
@VWGTI: Kojima stopped making "games" with Metal Gear Solid 2 and propogated the new form of "interactive movie" that we see so much of.  It basically pisses me off.  Half-Life 2 had just as much detail in the story without having hour-long cutscenes.
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#22  Edited By VWGTI
@jakob187:

I didn't know that. But all Metal Gear games feel the same to me (MS1-4). I think that without Kojima at the helm as far as story is concerned it wouldn't be the same. He has a way of bringing the player into the game, much like a movie, that most developers/producers/directors wish they could do. I don't believe for a second that Kojima wishes to say "fuck you" to any of the fans of his games.
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#23  Edited By BiffMcBlumpkin

Did you know that Kojima wears a new leather jacket to protect himself from the loneliness carried on the wind?

If you said that to a doctor he'd lock you up in the mental ward so fast your head would spin.

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#24  Edited By jakob187
@VWGTI: He ISN'T saying "fuck you" to the fans?  Really?  I thought making people pay $60 for what is essentially 2/3 cutscene after cutscene of convoluted and pretentious wet-dream fanfic and 1/3 sneaking around that could've been made into a cutscene was already a big enough "fuck you" to the fans...because they continue to shell out money for the MGS games.  Metal Gear Solid: VR Missions was a game.  Why?  Because there was actually GAMEPLAY in it.  At least he gave me the option to skip the cutscenes in MGS4.  Unfortunately, the gameplay itself was merely mediocre.  MGS apparently isn't MGS without the aforementioned fanfic.

Meanwhile, a game like DEAD SPACE knows how to lure the player in.  It doesn't clutter the screen up with a HUD, it tells the story IN THE GAME rather than through cutscene after cutscene, and it's a short and concise gameplay experience.
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#25  Edited By TheKidNixon
@jakob187 I know you're being reductive, but does it really qualify as "fanfic" if the piece in question is something officially part of the franchise, and written by the original creator? Does that make every sequel merely fanfic? Fan service, sure...

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jakob187

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#26  Edited By jakob187
@TheKidNixon: Given that "fanfic" is usually convoluted, pretentious, and over-the-top with ridiculousness...I think it's a fair way of describing Kojima's limited view of writing.
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#27  Edited By TheKidNixon
@jakob187 ...alright.

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TheKidNixon

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#28  Edited By TheKidNixon
@Hailinel said:
" Leigh was drunk, she made a fool of herself, and she apologized.  I think it's safe for all of us to just leave the whole episode behind.  There's no need to blast her any further when she already feels the need to make an unsolicited public apology. "
Agreed, though I think the OP was more actually approaching the things she was talking about. The less said about the show the better, but I think a discussion on gaming "auteurs" and the benefit of talking about them is interesting and worthwhile. Anyone who's just come in here to Leigh-bash is wasting everyone's time.
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#29  Edited By toowalrus

Ha, I listened to that entire podcast on the drive out of town. I actually really enjoyed it, I laughed so hard when Ryan told her that she was fucking crazy. Good podcast (although I'm glad I was listening through car speakers and not earbuds.)

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Supermarius

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#30  Edited By Supermarius

yeah. Its true that she was annoying and not a good guest but the more people talk about this, the more we all look like misogynists. It makes giant bomb look like some sort of "He-Man Woman hater's club". Thats a stereotype that as gamers I think we need to avoid, that we are socially award geeks who paradoxically seem to resent women as much as we desire them. Hopefully a mod locks this thread soon.

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jakob187

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#31  Edited By jakob187
@Supermarius: Again, one of those things where if you read the OP, you'd know that it was less about Leigh on the Bombcast and more about what she was talking about...  The only reason people are commenting on Leigh's appearance is because they aren't reading the OP and just commenting on it.
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VWGTI

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#32  Edited By VWGTI
@Supermarius said:
"yeah. Its true that she was annoying and not a good guest but the more people talk about this, the more we all look like misogynists. It makes giant bomb look like some sort of "He-Man Woman hater's club". Thats a stereotype that as gamers I think we need to avoid, that we are socially award geeks who paradoxically seem to resent women as much as we desire them. Hopefully a mod locks this thread soon."

Notice how people aren't hating on the other woman who was on the Day Three Bombcast? It has nothing to do with being misogynists.
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Supermarius

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#33  Edited By Supermarius

well if you read my post you would see that i agree with you about that. I don't think hardly anyone is actually being misogynist. I posted to that effect yesterday if you look at my post history. But the truth is that ppl went to her blog and called her a C***. So some hateful members of the giantbomb community are making us look bad even though indeed we arent bad. Im not saying that ppl shouldnt talk about it because what they are saying is bad, but because as this is a growing site i dont think we want ppl on the web to wrongly think the site is hostile to ladies.

It reminds me of a Doom forum i used to post/lurk on, Doomworld. If anyone, anyone brought up columbine, the columbine shooting or the doom addon levels made by Eric Harris, those thread were locked and nuked to oblivion. Not becuase the content in those posts was necessarily supportive of the shooters, but because the Doom community has been haunted by the idea that it created child killers and that its players were totally desensitized to violence. So the doom community practices self-censorship on those topics, simply so that the bad reputation in the media doesnt come back. Free speech is, of course, important to a healthy dialog, but what certain bad apples say can hurt us all, know what i mean?

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penguindust

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#34  Edited By penguindust

If you check out Leigh Alexander's blog Sexy Videogameland, she apologizes for blathering on and on during the podcast.

As for the OP's topic, I think what he is describing is what game makers, in fact all people in their fields of endeavor strive to achieve.  It's the reason why the conferences had people like Paul McCartney, Steven Spielberg and James Cameron at their presentations.  Microsoft was able to bring out Kojima, have him announce a Metal Gear title and that was all they needed to get people excited.  Sony just promised a Rockstar Games title and all they showed was a title screen.  The consistancy in their past titles produce expectations that they can trade on when promising future creations.  But the same thing can work in reverse as well.  At the 2007 E3, many people were impressed by the Hannah Montana music game but were embarrassed to say so because it was a Hannah Montana game.  Names are our identies, and we would all like our names to be associated with quality I believe.  But fame has a price and that is high expectations.  There is an old saying, "You've got all your life to write a your first novel, but only six months to write your second."  And to carry the analogy further, most "books" in life are judged first by what's on the cover.