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Edited by flanker22

does drew regularly review games??

Edited by GetEveryone

@blimble: You're losing me a bit. You saying that discussion of systems is irrelevant, but then bring up two distinct systems in a game.

I agree that dialogue and combat mechanics don't need to be integrated, but I thought we were talking about depth v. complexity.

If you mean the point about them 'acting cohesively' is irrelevant, that's solely directed at the action genre (in that they must give you viable ways to approach any combat scenario).

This is one of the difficulties in discussing abstract concepts. The depth of Ninja Gaiden involves it's elegant use of a few simple mechanics to avoid what would otherwise be a fatal encounter. It is a brutally hard game, but mastery of the systems at play offers a deep control of the character and offers possible responses to every situation.

The point was not that they can't co-exist, just that they can be mutually exclusive.

Posted by Dallas_Raines

Only a 4 out of 5?!?!?! This is like 9/11 all over again.

Online
Posted by Blimble

@blimble: You're losing me a bit. You saying that discussion of systems is irrelevant, but then bring up two distinct systems in a game.

I agree that dialogue and combat mechanics don't need to be integrated, but I thought we were talking about depth v. complexity.

If you mean the point about them 'acting cohesively' is irrelevant, that's solely directed at the action genre (in that they must give you viable ways to approach any combat scenario).

This is one of the difficulties in discussing abstract concepts. The depth of Ninja Gaiden involves it's elegant use of a few simple mechanics to avoid what would otherwise be a fatal encounter. It is a brutally hard game, but mastery of the systems at play offers a deep control of the character and offers possible responses to every situation.

The point was not that they can't co-exist, just that they can be mutually exclusive.

No I was saying I didn't get how it factored into this. My analogy was just as I thought your point was if systems don't intertwine they can't be deep or complex when that isn't true. The number of systems and how they link isn't necessary for something to be deep and/or complex

As for NG yeah there are some simple rules in play but it is a very deep game. Understand what is the best solution in the wide variety of situations in the game is complex

Your saying if the rule set (or moves in this case kinda) aren't complex themselves the game isn't complex but that isn't true. By being deep it leads to many options and is thus complex

Posted by Brendan

Reads like a fantastic rental to me. Sweet!

Edited by GetEveryone

Ah, right. I think there's been a fundamental misunderstanding somewhere, man.

@blimble said:

Your saying if the rule set (or moves in this case kinda) aren't complex themselves the game isn't complex but that isn't true. By being deep it leads to many options and is thus complex

That's the opposite of what I'm saying. I was trying to use NG as an example of what I mean about depth (with specific reference to action games).

The game mechanics page I linked earlier sums it up with the example of Go: "Go is perhaps one of the simplest of all games, yet exhibits extraordinary depth of play."

(I'm actually a bit of a Go nut, so this is helpful)

Go only really has a handful of simple rules (far fewer than Chess), but hides an unparalleled depth.

Where the 'systems acting cohesively' comment comes into play is that complexity meets depth where you have lots of these systems working together to the benefit of the player.

Conversely, just because you have something that is superficially complex, doesn't mean it hides any depth.

An example being hammering out 45 button presses in MK in order to pull off a pre-determined combo.

Hope that clears it up a little; I actually think we're on the same page.

Posted by Phished0ne

Man i love venturing into the comments thread on a review.

Posted by Shaanyboi

@pr1mus said:

People that compare review scores of two different games from 2 different developers reviewed by 2 different persons are just sad.

yup

Posted by GaspoweR

@mormonwarrior said:

I played the demo and didn't like what I saw at all. Not being able to dodge was a real bummer to me and the camera was insanely bad. I dunno...maybe the actual game would be alright but it just didn't feel as tight as Bayonetta or DmC and the slicing got old by the end of the demo.

And I'd consider myself a mild MGS fan as well. Hmm...

What is it with people thinking that there's no dodge mechanic? There totally is and it's pretty intricate stuff (and it definitely was in the demo):

I didn't like the demo very much at first glance either but after I gave it another shot it grew on me really fast and I became practically addicted to the gameplay. It's so satisfying.

Actually, the camera is fine to me but I'm guessing the part's wherein you might get crowded would be harder due to the closeness of the camera to the character.

Posted by GaspoweR

I don't know if anybody who played the demo has noticed this but I have to ask: does the enemy AI have unparry-able attacks other than the grapple/throw move (I'm using the mini-Rex here for a frame of reference)?

Posted by Blimble

Ah, right. I think there's been a fundamental misunderstanding somewhere, man.

That's the opposite of what I'm saying. I was trying to use NG as an example of what I mean about depth (with specific reference to action games).

The game mechanics page I linked earlier sums it up with the example of Go: "Go is perhaps one of the simplest of all games, yet exhibits extraordinary depth of play."

(I'm actually a bit of a Go nut, so this is helpful)

Go only really has a handful of simple rules (far fewer than Chess), but hides an unparalleled depth.

Where the 'systems acting cohesively' comment comes into play is that complexity meets depth where you have lots of these systems working together to the benefit of the player.

Conversely, just because you have something that is superficially complex, doesn't mean it hides any depth.

An example being hammering out 45 button presses in MK in order to pull off a pre-determined combo.

Hope that clears it up a little; I actually think we're on the same page.

I think we are but saying something has depth like Go while isn't complex is wrong, the depth gives it complexity. By having depth it inherently becomes complex as there is a lot to understand it the depth of it

I think it can be summed up as something with depth becomes complex but something complex isn't necessarily deep

So getting back to the original post he is actually doing a disservice to the game by saying it should only be called complex and when someone calls something deep they generally mean it is complex

Edited by GetEveryone

This is getting pretty abstract. I'd be as well writing this in notepad now, because it's mostly for my own peace-of-mind.

Go isn't complex. It is, at its most basic, a very simple game.

The application of those rules, however, offers a wide, wide range of options. All of those options are provided for by that small set of rules, but in having options, the game isn't made complex. I can attack, build strength or extend my influence across the board, all the while adhering to the rule-set. Through the execution of a specific set of moves, I effect a complex plan; this complexity, though, is derived in the process and reasoning involved in arriving at my desired outcome, not in the moves themselves. The game isn't suddenly made complex by having these options at my disposal.

Similarly, you can use a relatively simple set of gates to build a complex circuit.

This, then, is where we differ: 'depth' is the tools available to us to achieve certain goals, and any complexity, therein, lies in the implementation (whether by action, reasoning or otherwise) of those tools.

Depth does not automatically infer complexity, but it may give way to it. The system itself remains relatively simple, even if we can use that system to enact a complex series of manoeuvres; they are not interchangeable.

...I've bored myself and, in a roundabout way, agreed with you. Yay?

Posted by Supah_Ted

Can't wait

Posted by cannedstingray

@randombattle said:

I have to laugh at DmC getting a perfect 5 and this getting a 4.

It says more about who's reviewing them:

If Brad likes a game, he'll "really like it a lot" and sensationalise the heck out of it for the purpose of his agenda.

If Jeff likes a game, he'll give it 5 stars and keep playing it after the review.

4 stars seems to be Jeff's secret "eh, this game is ok, but by the end of the year I'll either resent it or have forgotten about it". I think if Brad got this game and not DMC, it would be 5 stars ;)

I agree that Brad gets really into games he likes, and tends to sensationalize them, and he may hand out the 5 star a little too often. But with the lack of .5 star I can see where he is coming from.

However I'm curious, What exactly is his "agenda"?

Posted by stryker1121

No challenge rooms or anything ala Vanquish? I'm one of those value-minded dudes you mention; can't believe that there aren't unlockable maps where you just slice up waves of enemies. This game seems like it would be perfect for that...

Posted by CreamStarter

@stryker1121: There are 20 VR Missions, and like Vanquish's challenges they get pretty fucking difficult.

Posted by Draxyle

@notdavid said:

Wait. This takes place AFTER Guns of the Patriots? I thought that it was going to take place in between 2 and 4. Besides, didn't Raiden get rid of his cyborg bits at the end of 4?

That was what the game was supposed to be while Konami was still working on it. For some reason they changed it when it was handed over to Platinum.

I was kinda disappointed with the switch, because it did feel like there was a lot they could explore during that gap between the two games.

Posted by Gerhabio

So DmC is apparently a much better game and retains title as Giantbomb's GOTY 2013.

Wonder what future holds,probably no one will be able to beat DmC.

It's way too early to say that, duder. Don't forget Bioshock Infinite is around the corner.

Posted by StriderNo9

Thanks for the review Jeff.

Posted by GERALTITUDE

@blimble @cptbedlam

Which makes these reviews perfect for me, as I also only plays these games periodically!

I'm not certain a review by a dude who is a total master of this genre and discusses it seriously at a technical level would be more useful to everybody.

Three Moves Ahead will have the more insightful, expert discussion and opinion on SimCity, but I'm more interested in Ryan, Brad, Vinny and Jeff's take on the game, because they are more like me in this scenario, and so more useful.

If anyone really cares about the lack of genre/franchise-specific experience reviewing games like DMC and Revengeance, then I urge them to review the game themselves, and put it up on GB. Cover the ground they can't instead of wishing they were different human beings with knowledge/interests they'll never have.

Posted by Nightfang

Well i'm sold.

Posted by m2cks

@randombattle said:

I have to laugh at DmC getting a perfect 5 and this getting a 4.

It says more about who's reviewing them:

If Brad likes a game, he'll "really like it a lot" and sensationalise the heck out of it for the purpose of his agenda.

If Jeff likes a game, he'll give it 5 stars and keep playing it after the review.

4 stars seems to be Jeff's secret "eh, this game is ok, but by the end of the year I'll either resent it or have forgotten about it". I think if Brad got this game and not DMC, it would be 5 stars ;)

*cough*Mortal Kombat vs. Dc Universe*cough*

Posted by SpartanHoplite

Tried the demo and didnt really care for the gameplay, and the fact i hate raiden makes me think its better just wait for 0.

Posted by golguin

Sounds very good and I can't wait to play it. I'm all about Platinum and have never played a MGS game before so I guess mission accomplished?

Edited by Bladefire

Will probably pick this up eventually but I really wish there was more weapon variety. One of the best parts of Bayonetta was mixing and matching the different weapon sets to find new combos. Limiting the primary weapon to always be the sword kind of bums me out. I loved playing with combos like the whip and the ice skates or the claws and rocket launchers. Just seems like forcing the sword as always primary could be limiting (as well as the lack of quick swapping to use multiple weapon sets in a combo).

Posted by AV_Gamer

This game is clearly a rental. Play it, send it back, then move on.

Posted by Fozimuth

Why is anybody surprised that this got 4 stars? Did people just forget who Platinum was? They have people who were involved in the first Devil May Cry, Viewtiful Joe, Okami, Bayonetta, and Vanquish, what could leave you to believe they would they screw this up?

Posted by Jackal888

I was going to buy this anyway. Jeff saying it is good only makes me feel good about my purchase.

Posted by I_Stay_Puft

Great review Jeff, was pessimistic about the length but you saying metal gear universe and the last boss was crazy drove me to bought it. Played a little bit so far and am enjoying what I see.

Posted by SpasticHeathen

@gaspower said:

I don't know if anybody who played the demo has noticed this but I have to ask: does the enemy AI have unparry-able attacks other than the grapple/throw move (I'm using the mini-Rex here for a frame of reference)?

I ran into an enemy with a flame thrower at one point. Only thing I can do is Defensive-Offense away and Ninja Run until it stops.

Edited by Rahxephon91

To be fair. 4 hours is kind of inline with a lot of the MGS games.1,2,4(thank jesus), PO, and MG1 aren't very long either.

Posted by sickVisionz

I've been up and down on my anticipation of this game. I was super excited to hear that Platinnum was making it. Then I heard that it wasn't Kamiya and I lost all interest in it. But, seconds in the gameplay of the quick look got it in my head that even though Kamiya wasn't there, the gameplay of this was going to be the type of insanity I like. Later Jeff cut a cardboard lady in half and it was replaced with a sexily dressed cardboard lady and that pretty much sold me on it having the goofball Kojima stuff I'd want as well.

Hearing that it's only 4 hours is a bummer so I won't be buying it at $60, but the day it goes on sale for $40 is the day Platinum/KojiPro will have my money.

Posted by Nettacki

@cptbedlam said:

@randombattle said:

I have to laugh at DmC getting a perfect 5 and this getting a 4.

We all knew this would happen. The guys just don't know enough about this type of game and the flashy but shallow game would of course score higher than the game that offers depth and challenge. ;)

Knew what would happen? That they would have a different opinion and affix one less totally irrelevant star than you would have liked?

Check this out:

Aside from the decent juggling/string system, there are parries and cancels, too (though, less than I'd like). It most definitely has depth. The system may be changed from previous iterations, but you're confusing accessible with shallow.

This isn't high-school where you need to fight one for the other's affection. We've just seen two awesome action games released within a couple weeks of each other, and you're pissing all over DmC for no reason.

Have you played through MGR?

Okay, so it does have some depth. Problem is, the game's generally not hard enough (or the reward system isn't strict enough) to encourage one to go deeper than what they normally use in the first place.

Edited by Nettacki

@fozimuth said:

Why is anybody surprised that this got 4 stars? Did people just forget who Platinum was? They have people who were involved in the first Devil May Cry, Viewtiful Joe, Okami, Bayonetta, and Vanquish, what could leave you to believe they would they screw this up?

Development Hell related stuff, the fact that they essentially adopted this game from Kojima Productions, and the uncertainty regarding how well the elements of one mesh with elements of the other.

Posted by RAMBO604

Its surprising to hear its good, that demo was so shitty. But the four hours is a deal breaker. I have a hard time replaying anything anymore even stuff I love. Four hours and me likely not touching it again or for awhile at $60 is a deal breaker. Plus with games plummeting in price weeks after release half the time anymore I'll just hold off. Wait till summer and pick it up on the cheap.

Edited by Undeadpool

@geteveryone QUITE the contrary! I agree with you!

@cannedstingray said:

@kittyvondoom said:

@randombattle said:

I have to laugh at DmC getting a perfect 5 and this getting a 4.

It says more about who's reviewing them:

If Brad likes a game, he'll "really like it a lot" and sensationalise the heck out of it for the purpose of his agenda.

If Jeff likes a game, he'll give it 5 stars and keep playing it after the review.

4 stars seems to be Jeff's secret "eh, this game is ok, but by the end of the year I'll either resent it or have forgotten about it". I think if Brad got this game and not DMC, it would be 5 stars ;)

I agree that Brad gets really into games he likes, and tends to sensationalize them, and he may hand out the 5 star a little too often. But with the lack of .5 star I can see where he is coming from.

However I'm curious, What exactly is his "agenda"?

I was curious about this myself. I'm going to guess the answer involves the words "X-bot," "dumbing down," and, if I'm lucky "bribery." If it involves all three, I win "Fanboy/Fangirl Bingo!"

Posted by MJones916
@elwoodan said:

I guess you could say he got his reviewgence?

*Stands up and claps*

Posted by HyperionXR

Just finished the game. I will say that while the game was extremely fun and enjoyable, and the plot relatively decent, the finale and main antagonist at the end was truly horrible. Some of the worst most ridiculous writing/acting/design I've seen in a game yet, and it all comes out of nowhere. What an anti-climactic end...

Posted by MHumphreys89

I'm not complaining, as i'm going to be buying the game regardless, but; I thought the developer claimed it wasn't a short game? Here's Jeff saying it is.

Posted by HeyImPhoenix

Excited to play it this Friday! Also dynasty warriors 7 empires!

Edited by durden77

I've been playing it for the past 3 hours or so and godddd it's soooo siiccck. Platinum just brings down the fucking house with their style like no other.

Nice review Jeff.

Edited by bunnymud

<p>Fucking chainsaw dog is eating my lunch. I need to learn to parry better</p>

Posted by Gordo789

Glad to see this turned out alright. Was going to buy it anyway, but relieved to see it's not awful.

Posted by AxleBro

The combat is a lot deeper than Jeff gives it credit for. I doubt this is the last we'll see of stupid-crazy robot Raiden.

Posted by Nettacki

@rambo604 said:

Its surprising to hear its good, that demo was so shitty. But the four hours is a deal breaker. I have a hard time replaying anything anymore even stuff I love. Four hours and me likely not touching it again or for awhile at $60 is a deal breaker. Plus with games plummeting in price weeks after release half the time anymore I'll just hold off. Wait till summer and pick it up on the cheap.

Even if there's a lot of nice stuff to unlock and look for anyway?

Posted by mORTEN81

Sweet readin' as always Jeff.

Edited by Puflwiz

Based Platinum does it again.

Posted by RedRavN

This game seems crazy and awesome but its a shame about the length. It doesn't really seem like the best value proposition although this is the type of game that you are meant to replay. I'm still enjoying dmc(pc) so maybe I'll give this game a shot when its a bit more affordable.

It seems like such a crazy idea to release such a ridiculous action game as a spin off to a series that has been so different in form. However, I think it fits well tonally given how absurd and dumb(in the good way) metal gear has always been. I like asian games that embrace the crazy and are a bit more self aware. I think that aspect makes games like this and binary domain more fun. Thx for the review Jeff!

Edited by durden77

Holy shit he wasn't kidding about that final boss.

Game was greattttttt. It may have been a little short but ear to ear all the way.

Posted by apoloimagod

I will probably just rent this, but I will definitely play it, just because it has 'Metal Gear' on it!