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Posted by DocHaus

There was a joke to be made here, but it is gone now. Some wonder if it ever existed, but alas we'll never know.

Posted by Oldirtybearon

@truthtellah: Either I'm speaking an alien tongue or you're just willfully ignorant. I'm not going around in circles with you any longer, no matter how many anecdotes you want to tell me about while working inside the bubble. Look it up sometime and you'll see that I'm right in that STEM related fields of study are dominated by men. I'm not pulling it out of my fucking ass here.

Posted by Ben_H

I liked the blog more without the context of the tweets. I thought you had just gone off the deep end and had starting calling the reader Lizzy for no real reason.

Posted by TruthTellah

@truthtellah: Either I'm speaking an alien tongue or you're just willfully ignorant. I'm not going around in circles with you any longer, no matter how many anecdotes you want to tell me about while working inside the bubble. Look it up sometime and you'll see that I'm right in that STEM related fields of study are dominated by men. I'm not pulling it out of my fucking ass here.

I'm not sure why you have to be rude about it, @Oldirtybearon. You responded to -me-. Not the other way around. I wouldn't be pointing out how incorrect you are here if you hadn't replied to me saying that women in general just don't give a shit about making games. That simply isn't true.

I have met a similar amount of women as men interested in game development, and fortunately, many are finally progressing in the industry. I'm not sure if you've ever worked in a game studio or been around people making games, but what you're saying about women just isn't accurate. More and more women each year are pursuing gaming because it seems more and more like a viable field to get into. And that's great. But it isn't absurd to suggest that we can do more to make women feel welcome in the gaming community and make sure that women are facing similar levels of opportunity and advancement within the gaming industry. That isn't a radical notion. That's acknowledging the reality that is out there and trying to find ways to improve the situation over time.

Posted by gogosox82

@depecheload said:

@no0b0rama said:

This has been the greatest piece of content on Giant Bomb in a long while. I salute you sir.

Yes. Yay for poorly written satire attacking women who try to open boys to the problems of sexism in the industry. He really nailed those fighting for equal rights! Yay to stick to the people working to end misogyny, rape culture and sexism in gaming culture! They really deserved it.

Forums. Sometimes they're worse than comments.

Yes clearly Elizabeth Deloria and Kotaku were making completely justifiable points and arguments that definitely should be taken seriously. These people are to feminism what the Black Panther Party was to the civil rights movement; crazies who ruin it for people who are actually trying to make change.

You do realize that the Black Panthers was a response to the police regularly coming into their neighborhoods and harassing for no apparent reason right? The police would intimidate, harass, arrest, and even kill them before the Black Panthers showed up. The Black Panthers were essentially a neighborhood watch program. Yes it got out of hand, but what did you expect when the force that's supposed to be protecting them is the source of the problem? Learn a little history before you make an ignorant comment and make yourself look silly.

Posted by TruthTellah

@no0b0rama said:

@depecheload said:

@no0b0rama said:

This has been the greatest piece of content on Giant Bomb in a long while. I salute you sir.

Yes. Yay for poorly written satire attacking women who try to open boys to the problems of sexism in the industry. He really nailed those fighting for equal rights! Yay to stick to the people working to end misogyny, rape culture and sexism in gaming culture! They really deserved it.

Forums. Sometimes they're worse than comments.

Yes clearly Elizabeth Deloria and Kotaku were making completely justifiable points and arguments that definitely should be taken seriously. These people are to feminism what the Black Panther Party was to the civil rights movement; crazies who ruin it for people who are actually trying to make change.

You do realize that the Black Panthers was a response to the police regularly coming into their neighborhoods and harassing for no apparent reason right? The police would intimidate, harass, arrest, and even kill them before the Black Panthers showed up. The Black Panthers were essentially a neighborhood watch program. Yes it got out of hand, but what did you expect when the force that's supposed to be protecting them is the source of the problem? Learn a little history before you make an ignorant comment and make yourself look silly.

I think that actually kind of reinforces his comparison. The point is that both were based on meaningful movements but got out of hand. So, just as the Black Panthers was based on a reasonable concern for people's safety but then evolved into extremism, some championing the reasonable cause of women's rights have gone too far into extremism. Both give a bad name to the more reasonable parts of their causes.

Posted by the_OFFICIAL_jAPanese_teaBAG

Mannnn, lifes sexist!

Edited by JasonR86
Online
Posted by Everyones_A_Critic

At first I was gonna say "I didn't know Patrick had an alt account!" But then I actually read the OP and laughed heartily. Well done.

Posted by gogosox82

@gogosox82 said:

@no0b0rama said:

@depecheload said:

@no0b0rama said:

This has been the greatest piece of content on Giant Bomb in a long while. I salute you sir.

Yes. Yay for poorly written satire attacking women who try to open boys to the problems of sexism in the industry. He really nailed those fighting for equal rights! Yay to stick to the people working to end misogyny, rape culture and sexism in gaming culture! They really deserved it.

Forums. Sometimes they're worse than comments.

Yes clearly Elizabeth Deloria and Kotaku were making completely justifiable points and arguments that definitely should be taken seriously. These people are to feminism what the Black Panther Party was to the civil rights movement; crazies who ruin it for people who are actually trying to make change.

You do realize that the Black Panthers was a response to the police regularly coming into their neighborhoods and harassing for no apparent reason right? The police would intimidate, harass, arrest, and even kill them before the Black Panthers showed up. The Black Panthers were essentially a neighborhood watch program. Yes it got out of hand, but what did you expect when the force that's supposed to be protecting them is the source of the problem? Learn a little history before you make an ignorant comment and make yourself look silly.

I think that actually kind of reinforces his comparison. The point is that both were based on meaningful movements but got out of hand. So, just as the Black Panthers was based on a reasonable concern for people's safety but then evolved into extremism, some championing the reasonable cause of women's rights have gone too far into extremism. Both give a bad name to the more reasonable parts of their causes.

True, but generalizing a whole movement isn't helpful. There is a reason for their existence. Its not like a bunch of black people woke up one day and said "Hey start carrying around shotguns and blast on anyone who isn't black/we don't like" which is kind of what he's referring to. There are good and bad parts to every movement and yes the black panthers are extreme just like radical feminists are extreme but its really up to people to have that context and not generalize about a movement/ideology.

Edited by TruthTellah

@gogosox82 said:

@truthtellah said:

@gogosox82 said:

@no0b0rama said:

@depecheload said:

@no0b0rama said:

This has been the greatest piece of content on Giant Bomb in a long while. I salute you sir.

Yes. Yay for poorly written satire attacking women who try to open boys to the problems of sexism in the industry. He really nailed those fighting for equal rights! Yay to stick to the people working to end misogyny, rape culture and sexism in gaming culture! They really deserved it.

Forums. Sometimes they're worse than comments.

Yes clearly Elizabeth Deloria and Kotaku were making completely justifiable points and arguments that definitely should be taken seriously. These people are to feminism what the Black Panther Party was to the civil rights movement; crazies who ruin it for people who are actually trying to make change.

You do realize that the Black Panthers was a response to the police regularly coming into their neighborhoods and harassing for no apparent reason right? The police would intimidate, harass, arrest, and even kill them before the Black Panthers showed up. The Black Panthers were essentially a neighborhood watch program. Yes it got out of hand, but what did you expect when the force that's supposed to be protecting them is the source of the problem? Learn a little history before you make an ignorant comment and make yourself look silly.

I think that actually kind of reinforces his comparison. The point is that both were based on meaningful movements but got out of hand. So, just as the Black Panthers was based on a reasonable concern for people's safety but then evolved into extremism, some championing the reasonable cause of women's rights have gone too far into extremism. Both give a bad name to the more reasonable parts of their causes.

True, but generalizing a whole movement isn't helpful. There is a reason for their existence. Its not like a bunch of black people woke up one day and said "Hey start carrying around shotguns and blast on anyone who isn't black/we don't like" which is kind of what he's referring to. There are good and bad parts to every movement and yes the black panthers are extreme just like radical feminists are extreme but its really up to people to have that context and not generalize about a movement/ideology.

I think it's actually rather nice to compare the Black Panther Party to radical feminists, as most radical feminists are on the low end of the extremist group spectrum. It's not like they compared the Black Panther Party to Al Qaeda or something. They just said that there is a similar situation where the extreme fringe end up making things harder for the more reasonable parts of a movement, and that's quite true. The Black Panther Party may have meant well at first, but it eventually became something destructive. They were still a historical net negative, and it's a shame that extremists advocating for feminism may equally give a bad name to those with more reasonable approaches to improving things for women in the world today.

Edited by gogosox82

@gogosox82 said:

@truthtellah said:

@gogosox82 said:

@no0b0rama said:

@depecheload said:

@no0b0rama said:

This has been the greatest piece of content on Giant Bomb in a long while. I salute you sir.

Yes. Yay for poorly written satire attacking women who try to open boys to the problems of sexism in the industry. He really nailed those fighting for equal rights! Yay to stick to the people working to end misogyny, rape culture and sexism in gaming culture! They really deserved it.

Forums. Sometimes they're worse than comments.

Yes clearly Elizabeth Deloria and Kotaku were making completely justifiable points and arguments that definitely should be taken seriously. These people are to feminism what the Black Panther Party was to the civil rights movement; crazies who ruin it for people who are actually trying to make change.

You do realize that the Black Panthers was a response to the police regularly coming into their neighborhoods and harassing for no apparent reason right? The police would intimidate, harass, arrest, and even kill them before the Black Panthers showed up. The Black Panthers were essentially a neighborhood watch program. Yes it got out of hand, but what did you expect when the force that's supposed to be protecting them is the source of the problem? Learn a little history before you make an ignorant comment and make yourself look silly.

I think that actually kind of reinforces his comparison. The point is that both were based on meaningful movements but got out of hand. So, just as the Black Panthers was based on a reasonable concern for people's safety but then evolved into extremism, some championing the reasonable cause of women's rights have gone too far into extremism. Both give a bad name to the more reasonable parts of their causes.

True, but generalizing a whole movement isn't helpful. There is a reason for their existence. Its not like a bunch of black people woke up one day and said "Hey start carrying around shotguns and blast on anyone who isn't black/we don't like" which is kind of what he's referring to. There are good and bad parts to every movement and yes the black panthers are extreme just like radical feminists are extreme but its really up to people to have that context and not generalize about a movement/ideology.

I think it's actually rather nice to compare the Black Panther Party to radical feminists, as most radical feminists are on the low end of the extremist group spectrum. It's not like they compared the Black Panther Party to Al Qaeda or something. They just said that there is a similar situation where the extreme fringe end up making things harder for the more reasonable parts of a movement, and that's quite true. The Black Panther Party may have meant well at first, but it eventually became something destructive. They were still a historical net negative, and it's a shame that extremists advocating for feminism may equally give a bad name to those with more reasonable approaches to improving things for women in the world today.

Well, I'm friends with a few radical feminist and they classify themselves as extreme. As extreme as the black panthers? Depends on who you talk to honestly. Some rad fems are more radical than others. See that's the issue with trying to say "this one group of people are extreme and crazy". It gets complicated because their are a lot of factors that go into why someone becomes a rad fem or any other kind of activist for that matter. Its just not conducive to what's actually being discussed. If you really want to improve things for women you actually have to discuss the issues that women are concerned about and try to come up with solutions through reasoned debate. Saying something like Kotaku is just as crazy as the black panthers is really meant to shut down debate and discussion. What's he's ultimately saying is that Kotaku, Elizabeth Deloria, and by extension, anyone who agrees with them are as extreme as the black panthers isn't saying that in an effort to help bring awareness to women's issues. There are saying that to shut down the discussion. And while I don't agree with everything that goes up on Kotaku, I also don't believe that they are as destructive as the black panther party. That's just being sensationalist.

Posted by dudeglove

Oh come on, guys, KaosAngel does this shit all the time.

Edited by Blu3V3nom07
Edited by JZ

Women are not allowed to be around driveclub guy, or the other way around.

Edited by troll93

@truthtellah said:

@oldirtybearon said:

@truthtellah said:

@oldirtybearon said:

@truthtellah said:

This... is awful.

I'm actually inclined to agree with criticizing those overreacting about the lack of women in the Sony presentation when the real issue is more in the day to day industry than big press events, but this was just bad. We don't need to construct an absurd straw man to critique some responses here.

But how and why is it a problem?

Women aren't on stage because women aren't really that into STEM fields, of which "video game developer" falls under. Do we really need to manufacture diversity when the truth is that women in general just don't give a shit about making games? How do we force them to, then? And if we do force them into it, isn't that just as bad as the oft-cited oppression they faced pre-feminist revolution in the 1960's? Aren't we then dictating to them who they are and what they get to be?

I thought feminism's big goal was about giving women the freedom to choose who they want to be and what they want to do? So if they're choosing not to be engineers, why the hell is it a problem when none of the engineers on stage for Sony's event are women?

Also that black cat cosplayer is a douche.

Wait, what female game developers are you hanging out with? What ever gave you the impression that women just "aren't really that into STEM fields" or "don't give a shit about making games"?

I can't really imagine a more misinformed opinion than that.

Plenty of women want to work in gaming, and it seems like more every year are working toward it. And you know what? Many are succeeding, too. But that's because a lot of women are pushing through the issues and trying to make games anyway. I'd say the ratio I've seen is closer to 60/40 than a definite 50/50 as far as people trying to make it in the games industry, but it's simply incorrect to suggest that women aren't interested in making games. They're human beings like anyone else, and games have near universal appeal. Women don't just have to be trotted out for big events like this, but to suggest that there aren't any particular issues and challenges facing women being a major part of the gaming community, getting into game development, or trying to advance in those jobs is just not the reality that is out there.

Oh so we're just going to ignore the fact that 98% of STEM related classes are attended by men then? That in the 40+ years of women getting a post-secondary education not only are there more women going to college than men, but that they unilaterally avoid STEM fields of study like it had herpes?

Okay, don't let me stop you from re-thinking your holy crusade.

No need to jump to absurdity. I'm not on some kind of crusade. I'm just sharing the reality of women in the industry. They're just normal people with varied interests, like men. Women certainly are interested in science, engineering, programming, and game development jobs. And I have met a significant amount of women studying game design. One of my good friends works at Blizzard and another is about a month from having her game on XBOX Live and Steam, and I have worked alongside many women working in 3D modeling and others pursuing game programming. And that's just game design, let alone the many working in fields of science and technology. Some of the smartest people I've ever met in science and mathematics are women.

As I said, I've seen something close to 60/40 as far as men to women working toward being in the games industry. Plenty of women love games and are passionate about being a part of making them. I can agree with those saying Sony didn't need to trot out women for the press conference; I think that's understandable. Those on stage were just the top people in their respective companies. But I can't agree with someone suggesting that women aren't interested in STEM subjects or game development. That simply isn't the women I have met and worked with.

You seem to be confusing first hand experience with scientific data. I have never meet a person from Spain that was a total piece of shit, but without doubt, there are people in Spain that are dicks.

I'm not sure if it is the same in the US, but using Australia as an example, because I know these numbers, and women only account for around 20% of the graduates of it/computer systems engineering while all electrical is around 18% in 2010, after rising for several years. This may be wildly different in the US, Japan and Europe, but this my represent it a bit. These numbers are from Engineers Australia, the peek and licensing body for all engineers in Australia.

Edited by TruthTellah

@truthtellah said:

@gogosox82 said:

@truthtellah said:

@gogosox82 said:

@no0b0rama said:

@depecheload said:

@no0b0rama said:

This has been the greatest piece of content on Giant Bomb in a long while. I salute you sir.

Yes. Yay for poorly written satire attacking women who try to open boys to the problems of sexism in the industry. He really nailed those fighting for equal rights! Yay to stick to the people working to end misogyny, rape culture and sexism in gaming culture! They really deserved it.

Forums. Sometimes they're worse than comments.

Yes clearly Elizabeth Deloria and Kotaku were making completely justifiable points and arguments that definitely should be taken seriously. These people are to feminism what the Black Panther Party was to the civil rights movement; crazies who ruin it for people who are actually trying to make change.

You do realize that the Black Panthers was a response to the police regularly coming into their neighborhoods and harassing for no apparent reason right? The police would intimidate, harass, arrest, and even kill them before the Black Panthers showed up. The Black Panthers were essentially a neighborhood watch program. Yes it got out of hand, but what did you expect when the force that's supposed to be protecting them is the source of the problem? Learn a little history before you make an ignorant comment and make yourself look silly.

I think that actually kind of reinforces his comparison. The point is that both were based on meaningful movements but got out of hand. So, just as the Black Panthers was based on a reasonable concern for people's safety but then evolved into extremism, some championing the reasonable cause of women's rights have gone too far into extremism. Both give a bad name to the more reasonable parts of their causes.

True, but generalizing a whole movement isn't helpful. There is a reason for their existence. Its not like a bunch of black people woke up one day and said "Hey start carrying around shotguns and blast on anyone who isn't black/we don't like" which is kind of what he's referring to. There are good and bad parts to every movement and yes the black panthers are extreme just like radical feminists are extreme but its really up to people to have that context and not generalize about a movement/ideology.

I think it's actually rather nice to compare the Black Panther Party to radical feminists, as most radical feminists are on the low end of the extremist group spectrum. It's not like they compared the Black Panther Party to Al Qaeda or something. They just said that there is a similar situation where the extreme fringe end up making things harder for the more reasonable parts of a movement, and that's quite true. The Black Panther Party may have meant well at first, but it eventually became something destructive. They were still a historical net negative, and it's a shame that extremists advocating for feminism may equally give a bad name to those with more reasonable approaches to improving things for women in the world today.

Well, I'm friends with a few radical feminist and they classify themselves as extreme. As extreme as the black panthers? Depends on who you talk to honestly. Some rad fems are more radical than others. See that's the issue with trying to say "this one group of people are extreme and crazy". It gets complicated because their are a lot of factors that go into why someone becomes a rad fem or any other kind of activist for that matter. Its just not conducive to what's actually being discussed. If you really want to improve things for women you actually have to discuss the issues that women are concerned about and try to come up with solutions through reasoned debate. Saying something like Kotaku is just as crazy as the black panthers is really meant to shut down debate and discussion. What's he's ultimately saying is that Kotaku, Elizabeth Deloria, and by extension, anyone who agrees with them are as extreme as the black panthers isn't saying that in an effort to help bring awareness to women's issues. There are saying that to shut down the discussion. And while I don't agree with everything that goes up on Kotaku, I also don't believe that they are as destructive as the black panther party. That's just being sensationalist.

Now that I would agree with. I was only talking about comparing extremist feminists with the Black Panther Party and their shared ability to make things more difficult for the reasonable people fighting for a good cause. I don't agree with who they are specifically declaring as extremist feminists. As with you, I don't agree that Kotaku fits in with that. I'd say it's at least fair to say that Elizabeth Deloria's specific comments here fit, as they certainly are both extreme and misguided; though, I wouldn't say that automatically makes her an extremist feminist. There isn't enough information for me to say that definitively. Even normal people can occasionally make rather extreme comments at times.

Edited by ll_Exile_ll

@troll93 said:

@truthtellah said:

@oldirtybearon said:

@truthtellah said:

@oldirtybearon said:

@truthtellah said:

This... is awful.

I'm actually inclined to agree with criticizing those overreacting about the lack of women in the Sony presentation when the real issue is more in the day to day industry than big press events, but this was just bad. We don't need to construct an absurd straw man to critique some responses here.

But how and why is it a problem?

Women aren't on stage because women aren't really that into STEM fields, of which "video game developer" falls under. Do we really need to manufacture diversity when the truth is that women in general just don't give a shit about making games? How do we force them to, then? And if we do force them into it, isn't that just as bad as the oft-cited oppression they faced pre-feminist revolution in the 1960's? Aren't we then dictating to them who they are and what they get to be?

I thought feminism's big goal was about giving women the freedom to choose who they want to be and what they want to do? So if they're choosing not to be engineers, why the hell is it a problem when none of the engineers on stage for Sony's event are women?

Also that black cat cosplayer is a douche.

Wait, what female game developers are you hanging out with? What ever gave you the impression that women just "aren't really that into STEM fields" or "don't give a shit about making games"?

I can't really imagine a more misinformed opinion than that.

Plenty of women want to work in gaming, and it seems like more every year are working toward it. And you know what? Many are succeeding, too. But that's because a lot of women are pushing through the issues and trying to make games anyway. I'd say the ratio I've seen is closer to 60/40 than a definite 50/50 as far as people trying to make it in the games industry, but it's simply incorrect to suggest that women aren't interested in making games. They're human beings like anyone else, and games have near universal appeal. Women don't just have to be trotted out for big events like this, but to suggest that there aren't any particular issues and challenges facing women being a major part of the gaming community, getting into game development, or trying to advance in those jobs is just not the reality that is out there.

Oh so we're just going to ignore the fact that 98% of STEM related classes are attended by men then? That in the 40+ years of women getting a post-secondary education not only are there more women going to college than men, but that they unilaterally avoid STEM fields of study like it had herpes?

Okay, don't let me stop you from re-thinking your holy crusade.

No need to jump to absurdity. I'm not on some kind of crusade. I'm just sharing the reality of women in the industry. They're just normal people with varied interests, like men. Women certainly are interested in science, engineering, programming, and game development jobs. And I have met a significant amount of women studying game design. One of my good friends works at Blizzard and another is about a month from having her game on XBOX Live and Steam, and I have worked alongside many women working in 3D modeling and others pursuing game programming. And that's just game design, let alone the many working in fields of science and technology. Some of the smartest people I've ever met in science and mathematics are women.

As I said, I've seen something close to 60/40 as far as men to women working toward being in the games industry. Plenty of women love games and are passionate about being a part of making them. I can agree with those saying Sony didn't need to trot out women for the press conference; I think that's understandable. Those on stage were just the top people in their respective companies. But I can't agree with someone suggesting that women aren't interested in STEM subjects or game development. That simply isn't the women I have met and worked with.

You seem to be confusing first hand experience with scientific data. I have never meet a person from Spain that was a total piece of shit, but without doubt, there are people in Spain that are dicks.

I'm not sure if it is the same in the US, but using Australia as an example, because I know these numbers, and women only account for around 20% of the graduates of it/computer systems engineering while all electrical is around 18% in 2010, after rising for several years. This may be wildly different in the US, Japan and Europe, but this my represent it a bit. These numbers are from Engineers Australia, the peek and licensing body for all engineers in Australia.

Here is some data for the US. It gives the percentage of recipients of bachelors degree which are women from 1984-2009.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-IcssWRNT-TY/T1U1ilWxxyI/AAAAAAAAQ-0/EEzLi72YOwI/s1600/Capture.JPG

Nearly 80% of education degrees go to women. Close to 60% of degrees pertaining to natural sciences to go women. Only 15% or so of engineering and computer based degrees go to women. Obviously there are women in the games industry, but its clear the reason the industry is dominated by men is, like was stated many times in this comment chain, men tend to gravitate more toward engineering while women tend to be interested in other things, as a generality.

That's not to say the industry doesn't have some issues on this subject, but for some people to say "I personally know women interested in making games or being a physicist, therefore the problem is the industry" is a little silly. No one is saying that women with these interests don't exist at all, but in general women tend to gravitate to other areas. I don't see anyone calling for more men as grade school teachers.

Gender equality is something I feel strongly about, but we also need to understand that men and women are still different. They think differently, they often have different opinions, and as you see with these numbers, they can have vastly different interests. If we are really to achieve true gender equality, we need to identify which things are actual inequality, and which are just a result of the inherent differences of men and women.

Just to note, I don't know what working conditions or career advancement are like in the gaming industry, it may be horribly sexist for all I know, I just want to point out that the main reason there are so few women in the industry isn't some big sexist conspiracy, but more a fact of the differences between the interests of men and women.

Posted by HeyImPhoenix

Loved this! Brilliant start to my Friday!

Posted by TruthTellah

@troll93 said:

@truthtellah said:

@oldirtybearon said:

@truthtellah said:

@oldirtybearon said:

@truthtellah said:

This... is awful.

I'm actually inclined to agree with criticizing those overreacting about the lack of women in the Sony presentation when the real issue is more in the day to day industry than big press events, but this was just bad. We don't need to construct an absurd straw man to critique some responses here.

But how and why is it a problem?

Women aren't on stage because women aren't really that into STEM fields, of which "video game developer" falls under. Do we really need to manufacture diversity when the truth is that women in general just don't give a shit about making games? How do we force them to, then? And if we do force them into it, isn't that just as bad as the oft-cited oppression they faced pre-feminist revolution in the 1960's? Aren't we then dictating to them who they are and what they get to be?

I thought feminism's big goal was about giving women the freedom to choose who they want to be and what they want to do? So if they're choosing not to be engineers, why the hell is it a problem when none of the engineers on stage for Sony's event are women?

Also that black cat cosplayer is a douche.

Wait, what female game developers are you hanging out with? What ever gave you the impression that women just "aren't really that into STEM fields" or "don't give a shit about making games"?

I can't really imagine a more misinformed opinion than that.

Plenty of women want to work in gaming, and it seems like more every year are working toward it. And you know what? Many are succeeding, too. But that's because a lot of women are pushing through the issues and trying to make games anyway. I'd say the ratio I've seen is closer to 60/40 than a definite 50/50 as far as people trying to make it in the games industry, but it's simply incorrect to suggest that women aren't interested in making games. They're human beings like anyone else, and games have near universal appeal. Women don't just have to be trotted out for big events like this, but to suggest that there aren't any particular issues and challenges facing women being a major part of the gaming community, getting into game development, or trying to advance in those jobs is just not the reality that is out there.

Oh so we're just going to ignore the fact that 98% of STEM related classes are attended by men then? That in the 40+ years of women getting a post-secondary education not only are there more women going to college than men, but that they unilaterally avoid STEM fields of study like it had herpes?

Okay, don't let me stop you from re-thinking your holy crusade.

No need to jump to absurdity. I'm not on some kind of crusade. I'm just sharing the reality of women in the industry. They're just normal people with varied interests, like men. Women certainly are interested in science, engineering, programming, and game development jobs. And I have met a significant amount of women studying game design. One of my good friends works at Blizzard and another is about a month from having her game on XBOX Live and Steam, and I have worked alongside many women working in 3D modeling and others pursuing game programming. And that's just game design, let alone the many working in fields of science and technology. Some of the smartest people I've ever met in science and mathematics are women.

As I said, I've seen something close to 60/40 as far as men to women working toward being in the games industry. Plenty of women love games and are passionate about being a part of making them. I can agree with those saying Sony didn't need to trot out women for the press conference; I think that's understandable. Those on stage were just the top people in their respective companies. But I can't agree with someone suggesting that women aren't interested in STEM subjects or game development. That simply isn't the women I have met and worked with.

You seem to be confusing first hand experience with scientific data. I have never meet a person from Spain that was a total piece of shit, but without doubt, there are people in Spain that are dicks.

I'm not sure if it is the same in the US, but using Australia as an example, because I know these numbers, and women only account for around 20% of the graduates of it/computer systems engineering while all electrical is around 18% in 2010, after rising for several years. This may be wildly different in the US, Japan and Europe, but this my represent it a bit. These numbers are from Engineers Australia, the peek and licensing body for all engineers in Australia.

Featuring in all STEM professions, women continue to expand their share of such jobs, and that's because it is less of a problem of women somehow inherently being less drawn to such professions due to their sex but because of cultural and business issues making STEM professions seem less desirable or viable for women. A woman isn't born being less interested in a profession; that's the point I'm trying to get across. If women are unlikely to be drawn toward a field of study, that's more of an issue involving our culture and history than some kind of physiological feature which makes women less interested in something. Women are normal human beings with the potential to be interested in whatever they like.

Statistically, there still is a gender gap, and part of that certainly is someone's perception of a career. That's part of why showing young women that there are women in these jobs often makes such pursuits appear more viable. Now, that isn't necessarily reason to just grab women and put them out there in press events like this, but I've not been talking about that. I've been responding to someone alleging that women weren't on stage because women in general aren't really into STEM fields and don't give a shit about making games. That simply isn't accurate. If you want to discuss figures, over a quarter of all STEM jobs in the world today are held by women, and I would say that's a significant amount of women. More than enough to dispel the fallacy that women in general just don't have any interest in such fields. And their numbers are growing every year as more women see that they are now viable avenues for women. The same is true in game development.

There are a lot of female gamers now, and a good number of them are interested in making games. A similar amount next to the amount of men interested, as well. Yet there is still a disparity in the industry, and while it's improving, it isn't true that women don't face some additional challenges in the gaming community and even game development. Women, when they come to enjoy videogames, tend to share a similar amount of interest in making games as men who enjoy videogames. Because they're not some special breed. They're normal people who can appreciate games and game development just as much as anyone else. That's all I'm saying. I'm acknowledging the reality of women today and their efforts to be a bigger part of the gaming community and game development.

Posted by Devil240Z

I I um..

Posted by TruthTellah

@jz said:

Women are not allowed to be around driveclub guy, or the other way around.

Honestly, I really don't think women have anything to fear from the Drive Club guy. I'm pretty sure he's only interested in the contours and crevasses of motor vehicles.

Posted by Sploder

You are the new Patricia Hernandez

Posted by Kazona

Satire for the win!

Posted by MikeJFlick

I'll just leave this here.

Posted by gogosox82

@gogosox82 said:

@truthtellah said:

@gogosox82 said:

@truthtellah said:

@gogosox82 said:

@no0b0rama said:

@depecheload said:

@no0b0rama said:

This has been the greatest piece of content on Giant Bomb in a long while. I salute you sir.

Yes. Yay for poorly written satire attacking women who try to open boys to the problems of sexism in the industry. He really nailed those fighting for equal rights! Yay to stick to the people working to end misogyny, rape culture and sexism in gaming culture! They really deserved it.

Forums. Sometimes they're worse than comments.

Yes clearly Elizabeth Deloria and Kotaku were making completely justifiable points and arguments that definitely should be taken seriously. These people are to feminism what the Black Panther Party was to the civil rights movement; crazies who ruin it for people who are actually trying to make change.

You do realize that the Black Panthers was a response to the police regularly coming into their neighborhoods and harassing for no apparent reason right? The police would intimidate, harass, arrest, and even kill them before the Black Panthers showed up. The Black Panthers were essentially a neighborhood watch program. Yes it got out of hand, but what did you expect when the force that's supposed to be protecting them is the source of the problem? Learn a little history before you make an ignorant comment and make yourself look silly.

I think that actually kind of reinforces his comparison. The point is that both were based on meaningful movements but got out of hand. So, just as the Black Panthers was based on a reasonable concern for people's safety but then evolved into extremism, some championing the reasonable cause of women's rights have gone too far into extremism. Both give a bad name to the more reasonable parts of their causes.

True, but generalizing a whole movement isn't helpful. There is a reason for their existence. Its not like a bunch of black people woke up one day and said "Hey start carrying around shotguns and blast on anyone who isn't black/we don't like" which is kind of what he's referring to. There are good and bad parts to every movement and yes the black panthers are extreme just like radical feminists are extreme but its really up to people to have that context and not generalize about a movement/ideology.

I think it's actually rather nice to compare the Black Panther Party to radical feminists, as most radical feminists are on the low end of the extremist group spectrum. It's not like they compared the Black Panther Party to Al Qaeda or something. They just said that there is a similar situation where the extreme fringe end up making things harder for the more reasonable parts of a movement, and that's quite true. The Black Panther Party may have meant well at first, but it eventually became something destructive. They were still a historical net negative, and it's a shame that extremists advocating for feminism may equally give a bad name to those with more reasonable approaches to improving things for women in the world today.

Well, I'm friends with a few radical feminist and they classify themselves as extreme. As extreme as the black panthers? Depends on who you talk to honestly. Some rad fems are more radical than others. See that's the issue with trying to say "this one group of people are extreme and crazy". It gets complicated because their are a lot of factors that go into why someone becomes a rad fem or any other kind of activist for that matter. Its just not conducive to what's actually being discussed. If you really want to improve things for women you actually have to discuss the issues that women are concerned about and try to come up with solutions through reasoned debate. Saying something like Kotaku is just as crazy as the black panthers is really meant to shut down debate and discussion. What's he's ultimately saying is that Kotaku, Elizabeth Deloria, and by extension, anyone who agrees with them are as extreme as the black panthers isn't saying that in an effort to help bring awareness to women's issues. There are saying that to shut down the discussion. And while I don't agree with everything that goes up on Kotaku, I also don't believe that they are as destructive as the black panther party. That's just being sensationalist.

Now that I would agree with. I was only talking about comparing extremist feminists with the Black Panther Party and their shared ability to make things more difficult for the reasonable people fighting for a good cause. I don't agree with who they are specifically declaring as extremist feminists. As with you, I don't agree that Kotaku fits in with that. I'd say it's at least fair to say that Elizabeth Deloria's specific comments here fit, as they certainly are both extreme and misguided; though, I wouldn't say that automatically makes her an extremist feminist. There isn't enough information for me to say that definitively. Even normal people can occasionally make rather extreme comments at times.

Yes, i would agree her comments seem a little misguided seeing as Nintendo has no problem parading out 20 year old models to showcase there new products and i'm sure Deloria wouldn't be ok with that considering her comments on twitter and in Patrick's piece from a few weeks back. She may have just been pissed off and said it on twitter instead of to herself or friends and family. She doesn't strike me as a radical feminist but then again, i don't know her so i could be wrong. And I do understand what your saying about making it harder. Reading some of the comments in this thread has opened my eyes to that a little more, but that could just be people misunderstanding things or just blowing off steam like Deloria was more than likely doing.

Posted by Carousel

TRIGGER WARNING

Excuse me sir.

You are portraying women in a negative light. That is not allowed on the GiantBomb forums.

Someone delete this thread before a fair maiden has a flashback.

Edited by SpaceInsomniac

@oldirtybearon said:

@chrissedoff said:

@oldirtybearon said:

But how and why is it a problem?

Women aren't on stage because women aren't really that into STEM fields, of which "video game developer" falls under. Do we really need to manufacture diversity when the truth is that women in general just don't give a shit about making games? How do we force them to, then? And if we do force them into it, isn't that just as bad as the oft-cited oppression they faced pre-feminist revolution in the 1960's? Aren't we then dictating to them who they are and what they get to be?

I thought feminism's big goal was about giving women the freedom to choose who they want to be and what they want to do? So if they're choosing not to be engineers, why the hell is it a problem when none of the engineers on stage for Sony's event are women?

Also that black cat cosplayer is a douche.

My sister has a master's in physics from one of the best universities in the world and works as an engineer. The idea that women aren't interested in science or engineering is horseshit and while I acknowledge that it would be pointless to seek out women to put on stage at a press conference purely for the sake of diversity, it's despicable to imply that any woman that we might see at video game press conferences wouldn't know what she's talking about.

First of all, big ups to your sister. Give her a pat on the back for me.

Second of all, I referred to women in general. And whether you want to be an uppity prick about it or not, the data says that the majority of women in post secondary education have avoided STEM related fields of study. They prefer to do other shit. Of course there are women who make games and enjoy making them, just as your physics sister probably enjoys her work. However, it doesn't stop the rest of the field from being predominantly male because not a lot of women are interested in those fields.

Yeah, this is the case. Women simply aren't drawn to STEM fields in the numbers that men are, and for some reason this outrages some people. If it didn't, the poster in this video would never have existed:

The thing is, there's absolutely NOTHING wrong with not having many women in STEM fields, if most women themselves don't want to be in those fields. There was a great comment from a women on NeoGAF concerning this issue, which I'll quote here:

Quick anecdote for everyone. I had to go to a nursing legislation conference a couple weeks ago. There was not a single male speaker the entire conference. Furthermore, the majority of attendees were women. There were door prizes given out if you signed up and they were all lotion baskets, or pink scrubs, and were all gifts for women. The men were told over loud speaker that all male bathrooms on the first floor were now female bathrooms for the duration of the conference to accommodate everyone. The males attending were told to go to the basement to use the bathroom.

I can't imagine anyone telling women at a majority male event to go use the bathroom in the basement.

If you have major issues with the lack of women in STEM fields (including being outraged by the lack of women at the Sony conference), and have absolutely no problem with the lack of male nurses or teachers, there's a word for that. That word isn't "feminist," it's "hypocrite."

Edited by mrfluke

@big_jon said:

This even though it's a joke, it still makes me so sad. Those Tweets were SO FUCKING STUPID!

those imo hyperbolic tweets are exactly why "sexism" will never get the audience it wants

Posted by Demoskinos

Remember when video games were about games and not this bullshit? Yeah those were good days.

Posted by bvilleneuve

Woah, a sexist clumsily taking satirical jabs at the very concept that maybe equal rights under the law don't immediately and effortlessly bring equality? People claiming that it's a really tight, well-crafted piece of satire just because it happens to agree with their prejudiced views? I must have wandered onto the Giant Bomb forums!

Posted by Kaiserreich

@bvilleneuve: I guess you did, now flee and don't look back!

Posted by bvilleneuve

@kaiserreich said:

@bvilleneuve: I guess you did, now flee and don't look back!

I'm just joshin', I love it here. I love you crazy bastards.

Posted by EarthBowl

@kaosangel: Sir, I understand and respect your remorse and anguish on the view of sexism in the gaming industry, but I feel your anger and the anger of your contemporaries are being expressed with a narrow minded view. Not to say those who support your opinion are stupid, far from it, but what I conceived from this was your disdain for the similar and the lack of recognition for female game developers. There are plenty of articles that specifically call out this argument and have adequate and reasonable responses for these questions. The industry needs mo...........................wait... IS THIS SATIRICAL?

Posted by big_jon
Leading the charge for anti sexism, one Wii at a time.

Like give me a fucking break.

Edited by TheDudeOfGaming
Posted by Nilazz

I guess they can't handle all the joysticks.

Edited by sopranosfan

<p>I am really mad that The View doesn't have any male hosts! I am really mad that no women are in the NBA! I am really mad that 95% of elementary teachers are female. I am mad that I had a job wher I lifted twice as heavy items for the same pay as women lifting lighter products. I am angry at Danica Patrick for complaining about people talking about her being a woman racecar driver and then making GoDaddy ads in a piece of string.</p>

Posted by Conzed92

@depecheload: Yay sir, yay indeed!

How spoiled we are my brothers and sisters. In India females are in very real danger of being literally, raped to death, beaten beyond recognition or having acid thrown in their faces. In Afghanistan women are dying because of vitamin-D (technically a hormone, pro-hormone) deficiency. Ever heard about that? No, 'cause women in the western world can walk outside, they are not confined to a shitty clay hut by an extreme and oppressive culture dominated by men. In China the authorities have yet to confront the ''boy-over-girl'' complex that so many families seem to indulge in, it is so bad that the ratio between males and females are 1:20 some places. They kill baby girls, just because they do not have balls and sticks.

In the western world however, a man is called a sexist pig when he asks a woman to shut her mouth, not because she is a woman, but because some humans are so incapable of saying anything even slightly coherent. Whole industries and areas of academia are branded as sexist, oppressive and subversive with their pro-male agenda. For doing what? Being good at their job and taking a liking to something which, due a variety of factors may not interest the opposite sex, in this case females. Face it, men and women are very different from each other. Humans are nothing, not in a million years, besides complex organisms controlled by the total result of the interaction between neurotransmitters, hormones, organic processes etc. Therefore it is highly likely that males and females will perform differently in a variety of fields. This could be an explanation of why females are so under-represented in the gaming industry (and is this even a true statement?).

Beating, raping or killing women is something which society must harshly punish, it cannot be tolerated.

Blaming a man for being a man is just stupid, one should know better.

Posted by Strife777

As a great man once said: "Bitches ain't shit but hoes and tricks."

Edited by punkxblaze

Not to interrupt this amazing, intellectual discourse, but on the topic of female spokepersons, whether or not this whole topic is satire;

Remember Jade Raymond? Yeah, that went well.

Edited by Conzed92

@punkxblaze: She was responsible for the whole Assassins Creed things, right?

Edited by KaosAngel

Found this on /v/ and Reddit on the treads about the whole situation with Sony hating women. Clearly it's not a social problem but rather all Sony's fault.

Edited by Kierkegaard

Really y'all? Really. No female presenter for two hours didn't feel weird for you? Doesn't matter what word you append to it. It's odd having only middle aged dudes telling you about things for 2 hours. It's not what you expect from a global corporation. It's not what you expect in the world. Assuming that the status quo is somehow a moral and practical certitude is a really problematic perspective.

Posted by KaosAngel

@punkxblaze: She wasn't an engineer or a programmer. She was just the producer. The Kotaku and Lizzy rants are about them bitching Sony didn't bring out female engineers.

Posted by KaosAngel

@kierkegaard: Look bro, Google puts their top engineers out for presentations be it male or female. Apple does the same. Microsoft does the same. Nintendo does the same. Every fucking tech company uses their heads of engineering who know what they are talking about for the press events.

It just happens to be females don't go into STEM majors. You want to blame the companies for not hiring women?

Knock yourself out. When Google and Apple already have a very hard time finding females for engineering...what makes you think Sony will have an easier time?

Posted by Snail

Well women do go into hard science majors. Saying otherwise it's kind of offensive. Medicinal schools are abundant with female students. Sure, engineering not so much, but biology is a hard science.

That aside, that was a kind of clever post.

Posted by KaosAngel

@snail: The majority don't though. I'm not saying that's good. It's just sad that women want to call shit sexist every second about the tech industry but then they don't want to take those majors.

Posted by jakob187
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