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Posted by ajamafalous

Quality Kaos thread. I read this on my phone in McDonald's while I watched a fat kid stuff his face.

Posted by NakAttack

Quality Kaos thread. I read this on my phone in McDonald's while I watched a fat kid stuff his face.

sorry

Posted by Kierkegaard

@kierkegaard: L

ook bro, Google puts their top engineers out for presentations be it male or female. Apple does the same. Microsoft does the same. Nintendo does the same. Every fucking tech company uses their heads of engineering who know what they are talking about for the press events.

It just happens to be females don't go into STEM majors. You want to blame the companies for not hiring women?

Knock yourself out. When Google and Apple already have a very hard time finding females for engineering...what makes you think Sony will have an easier time?

But you are assuming that there is something intrinsic to biology that makes men like shiny metal gizmos more than women. Doesn't that sound insanely unlikely to you? Isn't it possible that a culture that markets shiny metal gizmos to dudes and has done so for 40 years, that an education system that has emphasized "soft science" to women for decades--that these social factors are at issue, not some kind of intrinsic difference?

History and anthropology have shown time and time again that assumed norms are only social facts, things brought about by humans acting on other humans, not some sort of biologic eternality. So shush.

Posted by SirOptimusPrime

@kaosangel said:

@kierkegaard: L

ook bro, Google puts their top engineers out for presentations be it male or female. Apple does the same. Microsoft does the same. Nintendo does the same. Every fucking tech company uses their heads of engineering who know what they are talking about for the press events.

It just happens to be females don't go into STEM majors. You want to blame the companies for not hiring women?

Knock yourself out. When Google and Apple already have a very hard time finding females for engineering...what makes you think Sony will have an easier time?

But you are assuming that there is something intrinsic to biology that makes men like shiny metal gizmos more than women. Doesn't that sound insanely unlikely to you? Isn't it possible that a culture that markets shiny metal gizmos to dudes and has done so for 40 years, that an education system that has emphasized "soft science" to women for decades--that these social factors are at issue, not some kind of intrinsic difference?

History and anthropology have shown time and time again that assumed norms are only social facts, things brought about by humans acting on other humans, not some sort of biologic eternality. So shush.

Actually, I think what you're saying about social construct is exactly what he's saying. Only a truly special person could imply the words you're putting in kaos' mouth, and although the OP was really blatant and hamfisted I don't think he's an idiot.

Posted by Snail
@snail said:

Well women do go into hard science majors. Saying otherwise it's kind of offensive. Medicinal schools are abundant with female students. Sure, engineering not so much, but biology is a hard science.

That aside, that was a kind of clever post.

Wah? I mentioned biology courses, and then wrote "engineering not so much". I know engineering isn't the most popular major with women, but in your post you repeatedly mentioned "hard sciences", sarcastically implying that women didn't "go into" them.

"The problem isn't females aren't going into hard since majors."

"When my soon to be wife pops out my daughter, I'll make sure she knows that she won't have to go into hard science majors."

Just saying, there are science majors other than engineering ones that are hard and challenging. That was kind of reductive.

Edited by envane

hard science was a porno version of weird science

just sayin

Edited by Bourbon_Warrior

Why do you care what someone in Australia says who represents her self by dressing up in "sexy" cosplay in her profile pic?

When you put so much effort into replying to her you actually are giving her what she wants.

Posted by Oldirtybearon

Why do you care what someone in Australia says who represents her self by dressing up in "sexy" cosplay in her profile pic?

When you put so much effort into replying to her you actually are giving her what she wants.

Because she's the type of woman who wants you to recognize how sexy she is, but also condemns that behaviour. She's a hypocrite.

Posted by Icemael

@kierkegaard said:

But you are assuming that there is something intrinsic to biology that makes men like shiny metal gizmos more than women. Doesn't that sound insanely unlikely to you? Isn't it possible that a culture that markets shiny metal gizmos to dudes and has done so for 40 years, that an education system that has emphasized "soft science" to women for decades--that these social factors are at issue, not some kind of intrinsic difference?

History and anthropology have shown time and time again that assumed norms are only social facts, things brought about by humans acting on other humans, not some sort of biologic eternality. So shush.

Test have been done on babies to see what toys they prefer to play with. There has even been a test done on one day old infants to see whether they prefer to look at a face or a mechanical object. All of these tests show differences between boys and girls. What's curious about the toy tests is that they've checked the hormone levels that the children had been exposed to during fetal development, and boys who had been exposed to lower testosterone levels were less interested in "male toys" than boys that had been exposed to higher testosterone levels. The toy study has also been done on young monkeys, who have no culture involving different types of toys (or toys at all), and the results were the same as in the studies on human children.

Furthermore, the same difference between the interests of men and women can be found in every culture globally, both now and in the distant past.

This "there are no real psychological gender differences, it's all society" idea is an absolute load of bullshit.

Posted by Video_Game_King
Posted by Icemael

@video_game_king: I think the typical example is a doll for girls and a motor vehicle of some sort for boys.

Posted by Video_Game_King

@icemael:

I'd say the motor vehicle is a cultural imposition, but that position is harder to defend in the face of monkey testing.

Posted by KamasamaK

@kaosangel: Google had a woman talk about Glass at their latest I/O.

Posted by punkxblaze

@conzed92 said:

@punkxblaze: She was responsible for the whole Assassins Creed things, right?

She was a producer, if I recall correctly.

@punkxblaze: She wasn't an engineer or a programmer. She was just the producer. The Kotaku and Lizzy rants are about them bitching Sony didn't bring out female engineers.

I'm just saying, the last time there was a prominent female spokeperson in the industry, everything went (if you'll pardon the expression) tits up.

Posted by HatKing

Everything is gross.

Edited by Kierkegaard

@icemael said:

@kierkegaard said:

But you are assuming that there is something intrinsic to biology that makes men like shiny metal gizmos more than women. Doesn't that sound insanely unlikely to you? Isn't it possible that a culture that markets shiny metal gizmos to dudes and has done so for 40 years, that an education system that has emphasized "soft science" to women for decades--that these social factors are at issue, not some kind of intrinsic difference?

History and anthropology have shown time and time again that assumed norms are only social facts, things brought about by humans acting on other humans, not some sort of biologic eternality. So shush.

Test have been done on babies to see what toys they prefer to play with. There has even been a test done on one day old infants to see whether they prefer to look at a face or a mechanical object. All of these tests show differences between boys and girls. What's curious about the toy tests is that they've checked the hormone levels that the children had been exposed to during fetal development, and boys who had been exposed to lower testosterone levels were less interested in "male toys" than boys that had been exposed to higher testosterone levels. The toy study has also been done on young monkeys, who have no culture involving different types of toys (or toys at all), and the results were the same as in the studies on human children.

Furthermore, the same difference between the interests of men and women can be found in every culture globally, both now and in the distant past.

This "there are no real psychological gender differences, it's all society" idea is an absolute load of bullshit.

Hey, yup. You're right. Looked it up rather than running my mouth off and that is true. Probably an argument to be had about what skills are focused on or something, but there are clear differences based on brain chemistry and hormones. Sexism in the industry, then, would be less about general statistics of employee number, and more about fair and just employee treatment, the stuff that 2012 and 2013 have churned out many examples about.

Also, it should be noted, many executives are philosophy and English majors, not math, science, or engineering, so the talking heads at companies should probably be more evenly split than they are. There's likely something about the history of exclusion of women (no female principals in Illinois until the early 1980s, for instance) to blame for that.

Thank you for bringing science here and changing my head on that section. This press conference is no smoking gun, but commenting on it (rationally, unlike the straw man argument y'all are attacking) is okay to do.

Edited by big_jon

@punkxblaze said:

@conzed92 said:

@punkxblaze: She was responsible for the whole Assassins Creed things, right?

She was a producer, if I recall correctly.

@kaosangel said:

@punkxblaze: She wasn't an engineer or a programmer. She was just the producer. The Kotaku and Lizzy rants are about them bitching Sony didn't bring out female engineers.

I'm just saying, the last time there was a prominent female spokeperson in the industry, everything went (if you'll pardon the expression) tits up.

Kiki Wolfkill Executive Producer on Halo 4.

Just saying.

Edited by egg
Edited by Pr1mus

@egg: They are the tweets that inspired this beautiful thread. The tweets are for real apparently.

Also c'mon people, don't turn this thread into something serious!

Posted by Draxyle

The core of this problem stems back to the fact that parents still give their boys videogames, legos, and various tinker toys while only giving girls dolls, playhouses, and other such things. It's a cultural issue that goes far beyond Sony, and I think it's quite silly to rake them over the coals for this. If women were actually barred from presenting because they were women, then we'd have a problem, but we have no evidence of that.

I remember Josh Sawyer of Obsidian answering why there aren't that many women in gaming development, and he said that he simply doesn't get applications from them. Women don't (in general) want those jobs because society itself has pigeonholed them away from those jobs; just like how you won't see quite as many men in teaching or nursing positions.

There have been strides to correct this over the last few years (like that kickstarter for engineering based toys for girls), but it's a solution that we'll only see the results of many decades away. The only thing we can do as individuals is to not help contribute to those stereotypes and cultural biases.

Edited by KamasamaK

@punkxblaze: She wasn't an engineer or a programmer. She was just the producer. The Kotaku and Lizzy rants are about them bitching Sony didn't bring out female engineers.

Not for the Assassin's Creed games, but she was a programmer/engineer.

Posted by Osaladin

My entire outlook on this is, unless a woman is the most qualified to give that specific talk, then Sony shouldn't bend over backwards just to get a female exec up there for the sake of having a female up there. If they went out of their way to not include a female, even though she is at the top of her respective field, and can talk about it in that setting, then maybe it's a problem. As far as I can tell however, that was not the case. They didn't put Cerny in there because he was a man, he was up there because that guy knows his shit.

Posted by KaosAngel
@draxyle said:

just like how you won't see quite as many men in teaching

That is false. More male professors the higher up you go in education. HS and College level the vast majority of teachers are male.

Quality Kaos thread. I read this on my phone in McDonald's while I watched a fat kid stuff his face.

We can't talk about that anymore. One of the mod(s) and/or user(s) gets offended when I bring up the obesity rates in America.

Edited by Morrow

I really don't understand why "sexism" is a recurring issue here. We are all gamers.

Sure, there is a lack of women in leading positions. But that is the case everywhere. And I, as a woman, daresay it is partially because, even in a time of growing equality, there are still a lot of women who chose family over career. And they have every right to. I mean, that is the point of equality, to give the possibility to chose, not to press women into becoming men.

I know women in leading positions. I have a female superior. And the head of our firm is female as well. If a woman wants a leading position, she can have one, I believe.

Oh, and women still earn less than men, even if it's exactly the same job. You want more women in high positions? Give them better pay.

So can we please stop with all that gender talk? It's getting old.

Edited by OfficeGamer

@envane said:

hard science was a porno version of weird science

just sayin

I have learned something today. Thank you, I shall look for that porno now!

Posted by iam3green

good read.

Posted by FierceDeity

@no0b0rama said:

This has been the greatest piece of content on Giant Bomb in a long while. I salute you sir.

Yes. Yay for poorly written satire attacking women who try to open boys to the problems of sexism in the industry. He really nailed those fighting for equal rights! Yay to stick to the people working to end misogyny, rape culture and sexism in gaming culture! They really deserved it.

Forums. Sometimes they're worse than comments.

Someone took the bait.

Posted by KaosAngel
Posted by guiseppe

Dude, what?

Posted by Jams

@draxyle said:

just like how you won't see quite as many men in teaching

That is false. More male professors the higher up you go in education. HS and College level the vast majority of teachers are male.

That's because all of the female teachers are going to jails for screwing their students.

Posted by SpaceInsomniac

@draxyle said:

just like how you won't see quite as many men in teaching

That is false. More male professors the higher up you go in education. HS and College level the vast majority of teachers are male.

Do you have any stats to back up that statement? It certainly goes against my personal experience. The majority of my college level teachers were female.

Edited by TrafalgarLaw

Oh dear god...not having been breastfed AT ALL is really hazardous in the long run for a baby.
I'd slap this woman for condemning a perfectly health baby boy to a life of increased systolic bloodpressure, being prone for diabetes and obesity, having a lower IQ and so on.