Log in or sign up to comment
526 Comments
Edited by Danielsan
@deFacto said:

" WOWW. I hate that Nanako is still alive. All the passion the player should have for finding the real killer just kind of disappeared at that moment.   That's really bad story design IMO. This game turned to amazing when Nanako died, and then went back to "pretty good" when she woke up. I'll see what happens, but I was still dissapointed. "

Definitely agreed on that part.
When I first went through the game I couldn't believe the balls that Atlus had to kill off Nanako. I too thought it was a bit of a cop out for her to recover but ooh well.
 
I had similar feelings about MGS4. They should have ended that game with snake pulling the trigger, a bang and then a fade to credits.
Posted by SniperMOUS

"There seem to be no messages..."
 
Ouch...

Edited by atomic_dumpling
@FelixLighter said:

" Honestly, I don't think they knew the exact answers but I think they knew where the turning point was.  I didn't know the exact answers but I would have made those same dialog choices because I knew the turning point involved picking "correct" choices during a big scene. "

[SPOILER!]
 
Yeah, something like that. I also couldn't follow the "revenge" logic at all. Why did they want throw N. in the TV? So the monsters can kill him? Or the shadow? Why did they assume that they could away with this? Wouldn't the police like to know where N. suddenly disappeared to?
 
I think the game makes pretty clear that 1) killing N. is not the right thing to do and 2) that the decision is crucial (the most obvious cue is the music). Vinny's idea of Nanako being Teddie is intriguing and plausible given the weirdness of the game, but I doubt it.
 
Yosuke: "So, what''s this thing we are missing?"
Jeff: "If you knew, we wouldn't be missing it."
ZING!
Edited by shanchett99

YES.now monday will be worth watching !
 
i.e suspect list
 
and their acting as if they didnt know the right answers was kinda bad :P

Posted by 8bitman
@atomic_dumpling: So Jeff turned clever overnight eh.
Edited by Turambar
@Ventilator:  If you don't mind me asking, what would have been the message if Nanako remained dead?  The thing is, Nanako's death falls into one of many character through out RPGs that can be constituted as ultimately pointless.  It helps bring a great deal of tension and emotion to a scene, but it carries no weight in the long run.  I won't disagree that having her "die" in the first place wasn't really great writing either since I'm certain there are other better methods to bring about the same degree of anger at Namatame which was necessary for the plot to continue as it did, but anyone that says the game would have been better if she remained dead, no.
  
 
 
 
 

PERSONA 3 SPOILERS BELOW 
 
 
 
 

 

Regarding Persona 3, which three mains?  Shinji was a side character, no ands, ifs, or buts about it, and I honestly can't recall a second one that can be considered a major character either.  The only major character death, MC's death, was incomparable to that of Nanako's because of the symbolism behind it that is in line with the major themes of that game.  A miracle was not enough to stop Nyx.  The power of the universe was not enough to do anything more than to shield against that which the negativity of man conjures.  Humanity is fated to die, however long a process it takes.  That was the symbolism behind his death, and there isn't any such thing when it comes to Nanako.
 
Oh, and do remember: she stays dead if you kill Namatame.  If you want one message to take out of it, blind revenge never leads to anything good.
Posted by Porridgelad

You have chosen...wisely

Edited by Mikeymania

dudes, what the fuck is going ON?!

Edited by Tovan
@Ventilator said:

" I AM GOING TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS EPISODE, PERSONA 3 AND ALSO A LITTLE BIT ABOUT MGS4 SO ROLL ON IF YOU DON`T WANT TO SEE THIS.  I have been waiting for a major good-character death in this game for a while now, seeing as Persona 3 killed (and killed for realzies) 3 kinda major characters. This game managed to kill expendable side-characters.  What the fuck was the point in killing Nanako if she was going to wake up 5 minutes later? If you are going to kill a character and be dark then just do it, you are losing whatever point or message you were trying to have if you just revive people like that. HAHAAAAAAA We were kidding is just stupid. That´s also a reason why I didn´t like Mgs4´s story as much as I like Mgs3´s. In my opinion, they fucked up the ending in 4. "

The point of her "dying", is that in the bad ending, she stays like that.
Online
Edited by Turambar
@atomic_dumpling: They wanted to throw Namatame in the TV so the shadows can kill him because Nanako just died and everyone is pissed off.  And yeah, they could probably get away with it.  "We killed him by throwing him inside the TV."  Can the cops prove anything even if they said that?
 
Spoilers for Bad Ending #1 I suppose: If you throw Namatame in, you fast forward to the final day, and learn that Namatame was found later dead hanging from a tall building, and it was assumed that he was trying to escape. 
Posted by FluxWaveZ
@Tovan51 said:
"@Ventilator said:

" I AM GOING TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS EPISODE, PERSONA 3 AND ALSO A LITTLE BIT ABOUT MGS4 SO ROLL ON IF YOU DON`T WANT TO SEE THIS.  I have been waiting for a major good-character death in this game for a while now, seeing as Persona 3 killed (and killed for realzies) 3 kinda major characters. This game managed to kill expendable side-characters.  What the fuck was the point in killing Nanako if she was going to wake up 5 minutes later? If you are going to kill a character and be dark then just do it, you are losing whatever point or message you were trying to have if you just revive people like that. HAHAAAAAAA We were kidding is just stupid. That´s also a reason why I didn´t like Mgs4´s story as much as I like Mgs3´s. In my opinion, they fucked up the ending in 4. "

The point of her "dying", is that in the bad ending, she stays like that. "
Posted by Poki3

Yay! Good ending! Woo! (Yes, she can die in one of the bad endings...)
 
Too bad you had no messages. I had a bunch. Your school friends send you good wishes if you're R10 with them.
Can't wait till Monday. I wonder if they'll figure out who the real killer is or not ;]

Posted by FluxWaveZ
@iAmJohn said:
" @8bitman said:
" @Satune: They knew which answers were the right ones, no doubt . There has been so much talk about this game and the endurance run. If they hadn't checked them up themselves  someone told them. They are just pretending to make it interesting is my guess. "
I'm not so sure.  I bet they knew that Namatame's not the killer (and I have a feeling they know bits and pieces about what goes down in the true ending), but I think it would have been easy to figure that stuff out if you were set on not murdering Namatame.  The stuff that happens on 12/5?  I don't know.  But this seemed pretty self-explanatory to me. "

Jeff seemed pretty confident about the answers and there are 2 answers in that dialogue that are similar: "Why he's scared" and "Something's missing" are pretty interchangeable.  Vinny also wanted to say "I'm sorry" but Jeff insisted on saying "Calm the hell down!" a lot.  My guess is Jeff knew the answers to take and was making reasons why those answers are the right ones, and Vinny really had no idea even that those answers decided upon the ending.
Posted by Tebbit

Good grief
Posted by FluxWaveZ
@Turambar: You should edit that about the massive spoiler concerning Persona 3.
Edited by Turambar
@Poki3: I would be surprised if people haven't already messaged them with the name.  Hell, someone posted it in the comments to yesterday's video.
Posted by 8bitman
@FluxWaveZ said:
" @iAmJohn said:
" @8bitman said:
" @Satune: They knew which answers were the right ones, no doubt . There has been so much talk about this game and the endurance run. If they hadn't checked them up themselves  someone told them. They are just pretending to make it interesting is my guess. "
I'm not so sure.  I bet they knew that Namatame's not the killer (and I have a feeling they know bits and pieces about what goes down in the true ending), but I think it would have been easy to figure that stuff out if you were set on not murdering Namatame.  The stuff that happens on 12/5?  I don't know.  But this seemed pretty self-explanatory to me. "
Jeff seemed pretty confident about the answers and there are 2 answers in that dialogue that are similar: "Why he's scared" and "Something's missing" are pretty interchangeable.  Vinny also wanted to say "I'm sorry" but Jeff insisted on saying "Calm the hell down!" a lot.  My guess is Jeff knew the answers to take and was making reasons why those answers are the right ones, and Vinny really had no idea even that those answers decided upon the ending. "
I agree with that Flux. And also, Jeff has apparently been playing the game himself so what you suggest makes a lot of sense.
Posted by Enns

Haha. 
No one called to comfort Charlie about his family. 
You would think they would max atleast one non party social link by then. 
 
Only one pitfall left now.
Edited by Turambar
@FluxWaveZ: The game came out years ago.  Pretty sure the moratorium on it has ended.  I'll throw up a sufficient spoiler warning though.
Posted by FluxWaveZ
@Turambar: Yeah, but the Endurance Run has convinced people to go and play that game so here it could cause a problem.
Posted by Vorbis

All those whining that Nanko recovered, go play the game and aim for the bad ending.
 
Great episode and well done avoiding the above, just remember you only get 3 chances, I know its pretty obvious but it's tempting to randomly click the answers.

Posted by atomic_dumpling
@Turambar said:

" @Ventilator: If you don't mind me asking, what would have been the message if Nanako remained dead?  The thing is, Nanako's death falls into one of many character through out RPGs that can be constituted as ultimately pointless.

From what I saw, it's a typical "deus ex machina" setup, used to idolize gods for centuries in literature and theater (and obviously in crazy Japanese video games as well). Today' it's usually avoided because it's always somewhat unsatisfying once the initial alleviation subsides. It leaves no lasting emotional impact.
 
Makes you wonder if Teddie is some sort of persona god though…
Posted by Chip

I'm not going to lie, I shed a manly tear during this episode.

Edited by Turambar
@atomic_dumpling said:

" @Turambar said:

" @Ventilator: If you don't mind me asking, what would have been the message if Nanako remained dead?  The thing is, Nanako's death falls into one of many character through out RPGs that can be constituted as ultimately pointless.

From what I saw, it's a typical "deus ex machina" setup, used to idolize gods for centuries in literature and theater (and obviously in crazy Japanese video games as well). Today' it's usually avoided because it's always somewhat unsatisfying once the initial alleviation subsides. It leaves no lasting emotional impact. Makes you wonder if Teddie is some sort of persona god though… "
Oh, you'll know soon enough exactly what he is.  Here's a hint from the video though: what Shadow Teddie said?  It was all true.
Posted by Turambar

Oh, one thing that I always found hilarious about this scene.  Notice when Kanji was man handling Adachi for Namatame's room number, that it was still light outside?  Now notice that when you get to his room, it's almost midnight?  Yeah.

Posted by 8bitman
@Turambar said:
" @atomic_dumpling said: Oh, you'll know soon enough exactly what he is.  Here's a hint from the video though: what Shadow Teddie said?  It was all true. "
What the shadows say is always true it seems.
Posted by Poki3
@Turambar: Yeah, well not to tell too much but Jeff... 
Doesn't really matter though ;]
Posted by FluxWaveZ
@8bitman said:
" @Turambar said:
" @atomic_dumpling said: Oh, you'll know soon enough exactly what he is.  Here's a hint from the video though: what Shadow Teddie said?  It was all true. "
What the shadows say is always true it seems. "

Well, that's not necessarily the case.  In the TV, what the shadows say is true because they're the hidden selves of the characters, but what the shadows say when you're watching the midnight channel is not always true.  That will be explained in the game soon enough, though.
Posted by deFacto
@Vorbis: I think the game would have been better if they just scrapped the three endings and left her dead so the player had a real motivation to get the real killer. Atlas could have had the three endings and still left her dead too right (I didn't play the game so i dont know)? The story would be better that way either way.
Edited by legendary1

SHOULD HAVE GONE FOR THE BAD ENDING.
 
Teddie's stupid magical "now shes all better" part was a bunch of BS that felt thrown in just to reward players who chose a certain choice. It made no logical sense and was just made as a heavy handed way to distinguish the "GOOOOOOD CHOICE" from the BAAAAAD CHOICE".

Posted by FrankCanada97
@Chip: You're not the only one.
Posted by Scotto
I think their reactions to Nanako's "death" were genuine.  They seemed genuinely surprised at it, and Jeff seemed surprised when the narrative in Namatame's room turned to "not letting him get away with it".
 
I don't think they looked at a walkthrough.  To be honest, most of the speech options they choose were the ones I would have gone for too.
 
- Scott
Posted by atomic_dumpling
@FluxWaveZ said:
Well, that's not necessarily the case.  In the TV, what the shadows say is true because they're the hidden selves of the characters, but what the shadows say when you're watching the midnight channel is not always true.  That will be explained in the game soon enough, though. "
Now I am confused. Which is good.
Posted by MeatSim

Nice guys, you avoided the bad ending. When this came up for me I used a gamefaq just so I was sure I wasn't picking the wrong dialogue choices but you guys picked all the right dialogue choices with no help at all, so that's damn impressive. Damn though, this game can get really heavy real fast.

Posted by Earthborn
@Scotto said:
" I think their reactions to Nanako's "death" were genuine.  They seemed genuinely surprised at it, and Jeff seemed surprised when the narrative in Namatame's room turned to "not letting him get away with it".  I don't think they looked at a walkthrough.  To be honest, most of the speech options they choose were the ones I would have gone for too.  - Scott "
Totally agree.  I was led to believe the choices for the good ending were completely impossible without a walkthrough, but I absolutely was right with Jeff and Vinny in their choices. Plus, the game was TOTALLY baiting them into doing the "wrong thing" and gamers know that when a game has an agenda, you should probably take a step back. You're probably missing something.
Posted by Turambar
@deFacto: My take on it is, you don't need to kill her to give your character some "real motivation."  The very act of her being kidnapped, and being brought to the door step of death would have been enough.  Make her fall into a coma or something.  But killing her off would really have served to accomplish nothing but "make things dark."  And honestly, making things dark for the sake of it being dark is just overrated.
Posted by Turambar
@atomic_dumpling said:
" @FluxWaveZ said:
Well, that's not necessarily the case.  In the TV, what the shadows say is true because they're the hidden selves of the characters, but what the shadows say when you're watching the midnight channel is not always true.  That will be explained in the game soon enough, though. "
Now I am confused. Which is good. "
Well, when one of the central themes is Truth, it'd be sad if we didn't get a whole lot of mystery :D
Posted by kirisame

To Vinny and Jeff:
~Congratulations!! ~
Investigation Team ---> SEEKERS OF TRUTH

Edited by legendary1

Who honestly would not have killed namatame in real life? You have seen him in the TV, you know he was the one to kidnap people, you have all the evidence against him yet you know he isn't going to get convicted. The only evidence he didn't do it is his own messed up word.   The only reason you believe it is because its a game, and you know that if it presents the option that he didn't do it, 99.9% of the time he didn't do it.

Being able to talk yourself into believing him was stupid. You should have been required to perform some kind of optional secondary investigation before hand so that you had at least some kind of evidence that he didn't do it before the option even came up.

Posted by Expletive

WOW, so they actually chose all the right answers? i've never played the game. 
I got worried there for a minute, it would such a bummer if they got really anything but the true ending.

Posted by Turambar
@legendary1: Actually, we still don't know what Teddie had to do with Nanako's revival, if anything at all.  Saying more on my theory on this would be quite spoiler-tastic for the next episode or so, so I'll wait until Tuesday.
Posted by FelixLighter

We're going to charge it to a biiiiiiiitchhhhhhhh...

Edited by Turambar
@legendary1 said:

" Who honestly would not have killed namatame in real life? You have seen him in the TV, you know he was the one to kidnap people, you have all the evidence against him yet you know he isn't going to get convicted. The only evidence he didn't do it is his own messed up word.   The only reason you believe it is because its a game, and you know that if it presents the option that he didn't do it, 99.9% of the time he didn't do it. Being able to talk yourself into believing him was stupid. You should have been required to perform some kind of optional secondary investigation before hand so that you had at least some kind of evidence that he didn't do it before the option even came up. "

Well, I wouldn't have, for one.  Yes, even in real life.  Revenge isn't my thing and I'd really have been more interested in just WHY he did it.  And this is whole scenario was never about whether he did it or not.  It was always about why he did it.  Even in my first play through, the game offered me enough hints over the course of the game (if you talk to Namatame on the streets regularly) to know that there's something more to his motives.
Posted by CoryBoom

I am at peace for the weekend with this ER at a great stopping point. :)

Posted by gbrading

Fantastic, moving and dramatic episode. It was actually really sad when Nanako "died"; Vinny and Jeff didn't know what to say. Yosuke's disposition was understandable (although I'm glad they didn't follow his suggestion through); I still think he might be the most emotionally complex/realistic character there is.

Posted by ArbitraryWater

Nice acting Jeff and Vinny. It's almost like you didn't actually know the correct answers to get the good ending.

Posted by FrankCanada97
@legendary1: I wouldn't have, partly because I'm a wimp, and partly because my moral standing is too high.
Edited by legendary1
@Turambar said:

" @legendary1 said:

" Who honestly would not have killed namatame in real life? You have seen him in the TV, you know he was the one to kidnap people, you have all the evidence against him yet you know he isn't going to get convicted. The only evidence he didn't do it is his own messed up word.   The only reason you believe it is because its a game, and you know that if it presents the option that he didn't do it, 99.9% of the time he didn't do it. Being able to talk yourself into believing him was stupid. You should have been required to perform some kind of optional secondary investigation before hand so that you had at least some kind of evidence that he didn't do it before the option even came up. "

Well, I wouldn't have, for one.  Yes, even in real life.  Revenge isn't my thing and I'd really have been more interested in just WHY he did it. "
So you would rather let him go and (AFAIK) kill more people? Thats a rather harsh penalty just so that you can know some background info. Remember, he just killed your kid cousin. Don't pretend you would be happy to sit down and talk about it then share hugs. You aren't even killing him in the game, just throwing him into the TV.
 @FrankCanada97 said:

" @legendary1: I wouldn't have, partly because I'm a wimp, and partly because my moral standing is too high. "

  Morally, not preventing the murder of innocents is far more important then letting someone you know is responsible for people's deaths live.
Posted by atomic_dumpling
@ArbitraryWater said:
" Nice acting Jeff and Vinny. It's almost like you didn't actually know the correct answers to get the good ending. "
Wasn't that the whole point of bombarding them with the correct answers?
Posted by CitizenKane

One of the the best episodes of the ER.  Looks like they chose all the right answers, so I'm happy.
 
A great way to end the week!  ^__^