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Posted by FluxWaveZ
@gbrading said:
"

Fantastic, moving and dramatic episode. It was actually really sad when Nanako "died"; Vinny and Jeff didn't know what to say. Yosuke's disposition was understandable (although I'm glad they didn't follow his suggestion through); I still think he might be the most emotionally complex/realistic character there is.

"

Funny that you say that because in Persona 3, the character Junpei pretty much has the same role as Yosuke and kind of has the same personality.  He also of the same arcana (Magician) but Junpei is no doubt the most emotionally complex character in the game.  Even more than Yosuke, I even thought that he was going to turn evil at least a couple of times.
Posted by Turambar
@legendary1: Actually, yes, I would have.  I never said I wasn't selfish.  I want to know why, and killing him wouldn't get me that info.
Posted by guilherme

Congratulations for making the right choices!!!
 
Brace yourselves because there is more to come!

Posted by Hairydutchman

"What did you say?" "I don't know..."
 
Oh men what a heavy episode!

Posted by CannibalFerox

Righteous!

Posted by Turambar
@FluxWaveZ: I just wish his whole "angsty at the leader" phase had a bit more development, instead of just a few insults thrown at you, followed by an apology at the end of the month.
Posted by 8bitman
@atomic_dumpling said:
" @ArbitraryWater said:
" Nice acting Jeff and Vinny. It's almost like you didn't actually know the correct answers to get the good ending. "
Wasn't that the whole point of bombarding them with the correct answers? "
I know. A lot of people try to give "advise" on how to get the good ending and such. Still, it kind of feels weird to watch The ER if their reactions aren't genuine.
Posted by Sasanagui

Ooh, I call dibs on the lamp! 
 
Seriously though, what a horrible/good game this has been so far:(
Posted by legendary1
@Turambar said:
" @legendary1: Actually, yes, I would have.  I never said I wasn't selfish.  I want to know why, and killing him wouldn't get me that info. "
You are looking at it from the point of being a video game. People in video games don't lie much if at all, so its reasonable to suspect that if you ask they will tell you the truth and everyone goes on to live peacefully in the land of sunshine. People in real life, especially those who are suspected of murder, lie all the time. There was nothing to suggest he would be telling the truth, why would you believe him?
Posted by deFacto
@Turambar: It's not being dark for the sake of being dark when it truly strengthens the story. Personally, watching this episode I wanted to almost buy the game and play it myself after Nanako died. I imagined how awesome the final boss would be keeping in mind the killer (assuming he's the final boss) KILLED Nanako. It would feel so much better actually beating the game. 
 
When Nanako woke up though most of that drive dissapeared. That's just how it was for me. I won't deny that the characters have the same drive to catch the killer since Nanako ALMOST dies, but myself, as a viewer, saw the story as weaker when that happened, and had less desire to play the game. I agree that the CHARACTER's motivation to catch the killer is still strong, just not mine.
Edited by Turambar
@legendary1 said:


  Morally, not preventing the murder of innocents is far more important then letting someone you know is responsible for people's deaths live. "

 
*whistles something about differing degrees and forms of morality*  Really, you're not about to tell me you expect everyone to act the same way as you in this situation?  We're different people with different methods and different morality.  I doubt any of us are going to go through the exact same process in this situation.
Edited by legendary1
@Turambar said:

" @legendary1 said:


  Morally, not preventing the murder of innocents is far more important then letting someone you know is responsible for people's deaths live. "

 *whistles something about differing degrees and forms of morality*  Really, you're not about to tell me you expect everyone to act the same way as you in this situation?  We're different people with different methods and different morality.  I doubt any of us are going to go through the exact same process in this situation. "
That's just a cop out. Next thing you will tell me 9/11 or the holocaust was morally correct. After all, some twisted people think so. The life of someone who is guilty of multiple counts of murder and attempted murder is worth less then the life of innocents. Namatame IS guilty of murder (or at the very least manslaughter), whatever his intentions may be.
Posted by Tuggah

so I guess I was the only one who didn't care about Nanako?

Posted by legendary1
@Tuggah said:
" so I guess I was the only one who didn't care about Nanako? "
Yes *cries*
Edited by Turambar
@deFacto said:

" @Turambar: It's not being dark for the sake of being dark when it truly strengthens the story. Personally, watching this episode I wanted to almost buy the game and play it myself after Nanako died. I imagined how awesome the final boss would be keeping in mind the killer (assuming he's the final boss) KILLED Nanako. It would feel so much better actually beating the game.  When Nanako woke up though most of that drive dissapeared. That's just how it was for me. I won't deny that the characters have the same drive to catch the killer since Nanako ALMOST dies, but myself, as a viewer, saw the story as weaker when that happened, and had less desire to play the game. I agree that the CHARACTER's motivation to catch the killer is still strong, just not mine. "

Well, different strokes and all that jazz.  I don't know how Nanako's death would have strengthed the story, since, well, I had all the motivation that I as a player needed by the Heaven's dungeon.  If her death was only going to serve the purpose of making me angry at the killer, it would have been wasted on me because I already was.  
 
Like I said before, I think her death would have provided a lot of emotion, but it would have ultimately been empty and meaningless.  Of course, that situation would have mirrored reality the most, but that's not enough for me.  The game have made me invest enough into her that I don't want her to die, but not enough that her death would impact me in any profound way, hence emotional, but ultimately meaningless.
 
But yeah, character deaths are always tricky things, because different players invest different degrees of emotion into the character, and depending just on investment that provides differing results.
Posted by amino
@Ventilator said:
" I AM GOING TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN THIS EPISODE, PERSONA 3 AND ALSO A LITTLE BIT ABOUT MGS4 SO ROLL ON IF YOU DON`T WANT TO SEE THIS.  I have been waiting for a major good-character death in this game for a while now, seeing as Persona 3 killed (and killed for realzies) 3 kinda major characters. This game managed to kill expendable side-characters.  What the fuck was the point in killing Nanako if she was going to wake up 5 minutes later? If you are going to kill a character and be dark then just do it, you are losing whatever point or message you were trying to have if you just revive people like that. HAHAAAAAAA We were kidding is just stupid. That´s also a reason why I didn´t like Mgs4´s story as much as I like Mgs3´s. In my opinion, they fucked up the ending in 4. "
 There are 4 endings in P4: worst,bad,good, and true ending.
In the worst ending,when you decide to push Namatame into TV,Nanako is still dead.
Nanako is revived only when the player choose the bad/good/true ending path.
They still not avoid bad ending route yet.They only avoided worst ending.They need to find the right culprit to get the route to good or true ending.
Posted by ryanwho

I like that they saved immediately after over the previous following the finals, since the only point in really caring about the ending you get is if you want to see more than one. I hope that stung the backseat drivers a bit. They're not going for all three endings lol

Posted by GameFreak315

I don't know, they chose all the answers I would have chosen.  Either way, great episode.  That was exhausting.
Posted by JeffGoldblum

BOOM TUBE!

Posted by FluxWaveZ
@Turambar: That kind of made me hate him.  He wishes he was the special one, the leader and all that crap and takes it all out on the leader himself even if the main character was forced on being the leader.  He even blames the leader for all that is happening after the big reveal of what was inside him and at that point I just wished the main character punched him. 
 
But the way he acts in The Answer part of Persona 3 is much more reasonable than the other characters.
Edited by Cloneslayer

i cried during this episode

Edited by Turambar
@legendary1 said:

" @Turambar said:

" @legendary1 said:


  Morally, not preventing the murder of innocents is far more important then letting someone you know is responsible for people's deaths live. "

 *whistles something about differing degrees and forms of morality*  Really, you're not about to tell me you expect everyone to act the same way as you in this situation?  We're different people with different methods and different morality.  I doubt any of us are going to go through the exact same process in this situation. "
That's just a cop out. Next thing you will tell me 9/11 or the holocaust was morally correct. After all, some twisted people think so. The life of someone who is guilty of multiple counts of murder and attempted murder is worth less then the life of innocents. Namatame IS guilty of murder (or at the very least manslaughter), whatever his intentions may be. "
Uh, dude.  What the hell are you talking about?  You might go through that degree of through process, but I'd just be going "He just killed my cousin.  Do I want to kill him or ask him why?  Yeah, I'm sure I want to know why more."  Seriously, you are blowing this way out of proportion.
Posted by Turambar
@FluxWaveZ: Yeah, I know what you mean.  I didn't mean I wanted him to bitch more.  I just felt like that whole process and the end to it passed far too unsatisfactorily.
Edited by Turambar
@legendary1 said:

" @Turambar said:

" @legendary1: Actually, yes, I would have.  I never said I wasn't selfish.  I want to know why, and killing him wouldn't get me that info. "
You are looking at it from the point of being a video game. People in video games don't lie much if at all, so its reasonable to suspect that if you ask they will tell you the truth and everyone goes on to live peacefully in the land of sunshine. People in real life, especially those who are suspected of murder, lie all the time. There was nothing to suggest he would be telling the truth, why would you believe him? "
You're the one who wants to know what we would do in the heat of the moment in this situation.  I told you what I would do.  Seriously, get over it.  Not everyone shares your sentiments.  Some are more rational, others less.  Whether you think my method is rational or not is up to you.  I don't know myself, I just know it's what I'd do.  Get over it.
 
Trying to add logic to something that should be decided at the heat of the moment ruins the whole point of it.
Posted by FrankCanada97
@legendary1 said:
" @Turambar said:

" @legendary1 said:


  Morally, not preventing the murder of innocents is far more important then letting someone you know is responsible for people's deaths live. "

 *whistles something about differing degrees and forms of morality*  Really, you're not about to tell me you expect everyone to act the same way as you in this situation?  We're different people with different methods and different morality.  I doubt any of us are going to go through the exact same process in this situation. "
That's just a cop out. Next thing you will tell me 9/11 or the holocaust was morally correct. After all, some twisted people think so. The life of someone who is guilty of multiple counts of murder and attempted murder is worth less then the life of innocents. Namatame IS guilty of murder (or at the very least manslaughter), whatever his intentions may be. "
In the common law system, in order to be guilty of a crime, one would have to be shown that they had the actus reus and the mens rea, the elements of a crime. Namatame will not be guilty of the charges you claim, even though he had the actus reus, he certainly has shown he did not have the mens rea. As the saying goes: "the act does not make the person guilty unless the mind be also guilty".
Posted by moelarrycurly

80 hours!! whoa...

Edited by BenderUnit22

Teddie's world, Teddie's world! Party time! Excellent!

Edited by legendary1
@FrankCanada97 said:

In the common law system, in order to be guilty of a crime, one would have to be shown that they had the actus reus and the mens rea, the elements of a crime. Namatame will not be guilty of the charges you claim, even though he had the actus reus, he certainly has shown he did not have the mens rea. As the saying goes: "the act does not make the person guilty unless the mind be also guilty". "

Then I suppose "involuntary manslaughter" is a bogus charge that means nothing? Cause people have been convicted of that just fine. If he knew he was killing them by throwing them in there, it was murder, otherwise it was manslaughter. He possess the correct mens rea to convict by directly kidnapping people and leading them to their deaths. Otherwise I could point a gun at anyone and pull the trigger, then say I thought the gun was unloaded.
Posted by skrutop

Wow, sorta just pulled all of the air out of the room there.

Posted by Killroycantkill

Wow, greatest endurance run ever... So awesome.

Posted by Dixperiken

Woop, Grats on the normal ending guys! Fingers crossed for the True ending, though that one is harder to find. :)

Posted by MiserableGerm

Man, everyone is so bitter. Did you forget your meds today? Are u mad? Huh?

Posted by Daroki
@FluxWaveZ said:
" @gbrading said:
"

Fantastic, moving and dramatic episode. It was actually really sad when Nanako "died"; Vinny and Jeff didn't know what to say. Yosuke's disposition was understandable (although I'm glad they didn't follow his suggestion through); I still think he might be the most emotionally complex/realistic character there is.

"
Funny that you say that because in Persona 3, the character Junpei pretty much has the same role as Yosuke and kind of has the same personality.  He also of the same arcana (Magician) but Junpei is no doubt the most emotionally complex character in the game.  Even more than Yosuke, I even thought that he was going to turn evil at least a couple of times. "
And at points, if Junpei snapped, I couldn't have blamed him.  It would have sucked to hunt him down as a rogue Persona user but if the key moment killed someone in S.E.E.S. instead of Strega and he turned I would have went after him with a VERY heavy heart.  
 
And I threw his ass in no questions asked the first time I played.  I didn't care that it wasn't going to lead to the good ending, true ending, bad ending, I wanted that bastard to pay and was more than willing to get my hands dirty before being left alone without my parents, my cousin dead, my uncle arrested and a murderer.   
 
Body?  What body?
Edited by Turambar
@legendary1 said:

" @FrankCanada97 said:

In the common law system, in order to be guilty of a crime, one would have to be shown that they had the actus reus and the mens rea, the elements of a crime. Namatame will not be guilty of the charges you claim, even though he had the actus reus, he certainly has shown he did not have the mens rea. As the saying goes: "the act does not make the person guilty unless the mind be also guilty". "

Then I suppose "involuntary manslaughter" is a bogus charge that means nothing? Cause people have been convicted of that just fine. If he knew he was killing them by throwing them in there, it was murder, otherwise it was manslaughter. He possess the correct mens rea to convict by directly kidnapping people and leading them to their deaths. Otherwise I could point a gun at anyone and pull the trigger, then say I thought the gun was unloaded. "
You do realize even in the context of the game, Namatame isn't going to be acquitted of charges of kidnapping.  And if he killed anyone, manslaughter probably as well.  But you can't make murder stick without a motive.  It is as you call it, "involuntary manslaughter."
Posted by FluxWaveZ
@MiserableGerm said:
"Man, everyone is so bitter. Did you forget your meds today? Are u mad? Huh? "

Arguments pretty much always happen in this comment section.
Edited by Turambar
@FluxWaveZ said:

" @MiserableGerm said:

"Man, everyone is so bitter. Did you forget your meds today? Are u mad? Huh? "
Arguments pretty much always happen in this comment section. "
I actually think it's a good sign that the game has invoked this degree of emotion in some.  With plot and theme related matters of course, not "how to perfect mode the game" matters.
Edited by chronix

No I haven't finished watching (and I'm behind right before the test) but they should put their glasses on and see if the fog clears up
 
 edit: obviously I play for another 60 seconds and this happens :)

Posted by FluxWaveZ
@Turambar said:
"@FluxWaveZ said:

" @MiserableGerm said:

"Man, everyone is so bitter. Did you forget your meds today? Are u mad? Huh? "
Arguments pretty much always happen in this comment section. "
I actually think it's a good sign that the game has invoked this degree of emotion in some.  With plot and theme related matters of course, not "how to perfect mode the game" matters. "

I agree, it also keeps things lively rather than just commenting saying that this video was great or something.
Edited by EpicBenjamin

Awesome! They're defiantly getting the normal ending. Let's hope they also get the true ending. 
 
EDIT: Oh wait, they will probably get the normal ending. Tihi!
Posted by Hemlock

Best episode. Ugh, why did it have to arrive on a Friday?

Posted by b1zarr0

Intense episode!  What a way to end the week.

Edited by ZmillA

I wish you guys would stop saying they got the "true" ending. They shouldn't know that until it actually happens
 
anyways great episode. This game really is awesome. Definitely getting PS5, even if that means buying a ps3

Edited by FrankCanada97
@legendary1 said:

" @FrankCanada97 said:

In the common law system, in order to be guilty of a crime, one would have to be shown that they had the actus reus and the mens rea, the elements of a crime. Namatame will not be guilty of the charges you claim, even though he had the actus reus, he certainly has shown he did not have the mens rea. As the saying goes: "the act does not make the person guilty unless the mind be also guilty". "

Then I suppose "involuntary manslaughter" is a bogus charge that means nothing? Cause people have been convicted of that just fine. If he knew he was killing them by throwing them in there, it was murder, otherwise it was manslaughter. "
@legendary1: I should have been more specific, by the two charges I was referring to the "murder" and "attempted murder." I never claimed that manslaughter meant nothing. Although, he is still not guilty of that in this case because, Namatame did not cause the deaths of anyone in the game, so he is not guilty, because there is no actus reus. Kidnapping maybe.
Edited by legendary1
@Turambar said:

You do realize even in the context of the game, Namatame isn't going to be acquitted of charges of kidnapping.  And if he killed anyone, manslaughter probably as well.  But you can't make murder stick without a motive.  It is as you call it, "involuntary manslaughter." "

Actually, he probably is getting acquitted. The worst concrete charge the police can stick him with is resisting arrest. Everything else comes from a few kids with an outlandish story that, for all they know, kidnapped Nanako and framed an innocent man. Namatame will be set free.
 

@FrankCanada97said:


@legendary1: I should have been more specific, by the two charges I was referring to the "murder" and "attempted murder." I never claimed that manslaughter meant nothing. Although, he is still not guilty of that in this case because, Namatame did not cause the deaths of anyone in the game, so he is not guilty, because there is no actus reus. Kidnapping maybe. " 

 When I speak, I'm speaking from the viewpoint of the characters in the story, not a P4 player who knows all the facts. As far as all the characters are concerned, all the evidence in the world points against Namatame and only his own crazy ramblings say he didn't do it. You can't know all the facts, justice is blind, as they say.
Posted by MaSteRMaSteR

wait isn't it still possible to get the bad ending?

Edited by Turambar
@legendary1 said:


  When I speak, I'm speaking from the viewpoint of the characters in the story, not a P4 player who knows all the facts. As far as all the characters are concerned, all the evidence in the world points against Namatame and only his own crazy ramblings say he didn't do it. Justice is blind, as they say. "

Alright, if you want to do this from the perspective of the MC, then sure.  
 
When I fought him at the top of heaven, he said "You are the ones I saved" to those who were kidnapped and rescued.  If to save was actually to kill, then he would have actually "failed" to save them.  This implies he truely was trying to save Nanako, as in literally save her life, just as he had thought he saved the others.  Now, the question is, what was he trying to save her from.  This question is far too important to kill him without being answered first.  Further more, when the midnight channel appeared, it was unlike anything that I have experienced before.  If it was Shadow Namatame speaking through the TV, all previous experiences have pointed to the real Namatame being inside the TV at the time, but he obviously wasn't.  So who is the Namatame in the TV?  And is what he's saying actually Namatame's "true feelings"?  Without answering this, killing Namatame may very well be a giant mistake, one that I am not willing to risk just yet.
 
You wanted to how Charlie might have acted?  That above is exactly how I think he would have thought and acted.
 
 Oh, and no, he doesn't get acquitted.  I'd say more, but then it'd be spoilers.
Posted by FrankCanada97
@legendary1 said:
 When I speak, I'm speaking from the viewpoint of the characters in the story, not a P4 player who knows all the facts. As far as all the characters are concerned, all the evidence in the world points against Namatame and only his own crazy ramblings say he didn't do it. You can't know all the facts, justice is blind, as they say. "
If I recall correctly, didn't some of the characters know that Namatame had a rock solid alibi for the very first victim? I think they read it in a newspaper or heard about it on TV, plus Naoto knew about but in the heat of the moment, had it locked away in the back of her mind.
Posted by FrankCanada97
@Turambar said:
" @legendary1 said:


  When I speak, I'm speaking from the viewpoint of the characters in the story, not a P4 player who knows all the facts. As far as all the characters are concerned, all the evidence in the world points against Namatame and only his own crazy ramblings say he didn't do it. Justice is blind, as they say. "

Alright, if you want to do this from the perspective of the MC, then sure.  
 
When I fought him at the top of heaven, he said "You are the ones I saved" to those who were kidnapped and rescued.  If to save was actually to kill, then he would have actually "failed" to save them.  This implies him truely was trying to save Nanako, as in literally save her life, just as he saved the others.  Now, the question is, what was he trying to save her from.  This question is far too important to kill him without being answered first.  Further more, when the midnight channel appeared, it was unlike anything that I have experienced before.  If it was Shadow Namatame speaking through the TV, all previous experiences have pointed to the real Namatame being inside the TV at the time, but he obviously wasn't.  So who is the Namatame in the TV?  And is what he's saying actually Namatame's "true feelings"?  Without answering this, killing Namatame may very well be a giant mistake, one that I am not willing to risk just yet.  You wanted to how Charlie might have acted?  That above is exactly how I think he would have acted. "
There's that too.
Edited by legendary1
@Turambar: 
He also "saved" nanako, who just died. Do I need to tell you of all the crazy people in the world who have thought "saving" people meant putting them in life threatening danger?
 
The shadows speaking through the TV on the midnight channel are those of the people he is kidnapping, not Namatame himself.
 
 @FrankCanada97 said:

If I recall correctly, didn't some of the characters know that Namatame had a rock solid alibi for the very first victim? I think they read it in a newspaper or heard about it on TV, plus Naoto knew about but in the heat of the moment, had it locked away in the back of her mind. "

 Its certainly possible to consider that, but remember Namatame only has a rock solid alibi as far as the police are concerned. The police don't happen to know about magical TV's that take you to other dimensions.
Posted by Baal_Sagoth

Well, this game proves to be interesting time and time again. As intense as it was, I still don't really like that they go out of their way to make the player think Nanako dies and then back out of it again. That sort of move makes them look like incompetent storytellers .... if they were actually talented they shouldn't have to resort to the worst kind of narrative cliché to pull the players emotional strings (and they've shown their talent before). Also I'm torn about Nanako's life being a twisted "reward" for acting considerate and stepping back from revenge (don't know if they had a karma-concept in mind with that).
But the game isn't even finished so I'll have to wait before I come to a meaningful conclusion about the quality of the plot. At the very least it will have been an exciting plot enjoyed in conjunction with exceptionally funny commentary :)