Log in or sign up to comment
268 Comments
Posted by habster3

@DevWill: I was saying that after reading your response to me,I changed my mind; this should not be locked and it's not offensive.

Posted by Virago
@TooWalrus said:
" @DevWil:  
@Virago:   The world needs more vegetarians like Virago and less like the OP. Thanks for NOT being a total douche, Virago. "
<3
Edited by DevWil
@habster3:  
 
either i'm misunderstanding you or you're misunderstanding me.  i really think it's more likely to be the former.
 
could you maybe re-word what you said?  

@LordXavierBritish said:

" @DevWil:  This shit is happening now. We've made extraordinary leaps in Biology very recently, and the medical benefits of such research is too great to be ignored. Synthetic meat is a reality at this point, because when synthetic organs are completed all the necessary work to create synthetic, edible tissue would already have been done. Arthur C. Clarke was a very intelligent man, though ultimately an idealist. The first synthetic cell has been created, and the time is now.  What I'm really struggling to understand is how can say your choice to be a Vegetarian is saving anything. By your definition, the only way you could actually live by your beliefs and not be a complete hypocrite would be to eat food grown on small local farms. Now, maybe you do do that but, I'm going to go with the safe bet and assume you don't. By eating any processed food you are actively funding the companies that  destroy enormous amounts of land each year, subsequently destroying the habitats of thousands of animals.  You aren't killing an animal with your bare hands when you eat meat from the slaughter house, so you and me are on the exact same level when it comes to harming wild life. "


yeah, scientists have proven that it works, but that doesn't mean it's pervading our culture in the slightest.  people might find it too expensive (which doesn't seem to be a factor from what i've read of it, though), ungodly, or just plain creepy.  none of those three things are necessarily my own personal view, but i really feel like it's likely that the majority of people could feel one of those ways about it.  there's no guarantee that synthetic meat will be a successful alternative.
 
"What I'm really struggling to understand is how can you say your choice to be a Vegetarian is saving anything." 
 
apparently you are indeed struggling to understand, because i've been saying the opposite.  my accomplishment is not in the number of animals' lives i've saved.  my accomplishment is a personal, ethical one to refuse to eat food that necessarily results in intentional violence towards sentient beings. 
 
i'm glad you have a critical enough mind to see the big picture and criticize the entire food industry, but, dude: i have to eat something.  it's easy not to eat meat; it's really hard not to eat anything that is suspect of causing any ill to the world. 
 
"you and me are on the exact same level when it comes to harming wild life." 
 
i couldn't disagree more.
 
first of all, your use of the term "wild life" is plainly troublesome.  practically none of the meat sold in any market is from wild animals.  it's from animals who are created solely for the purpose of being destroyed.  any animals affected by my diet are affected by happenstance, not by explicit design.  (edit: i may have misunderstood your point and didn't give you credit for using the term literally.  apologies, if so.)
 
more importantly, though, let me use a hypothetical to illustrate my disagreement with your larger point: 
 
you and i both shop exclusively at the same weekly farmers' market.  we both buy vegetables and fruits; you buy meat.  by purchasing the non-meat food, you and i are responsible for the same ecological footprint.  however, you are responsible for the additional footprint implied by the meat.
 
i don't think this point should be controversial, but i'm sure you'll argue with it.
Posted by Toms115
@DevWil said:
However, we're still animals. 

animals like meat.
Edited by ahriman22

I support the slaughtering of cows by barely paid workers to fill my tummy.
 
I don't remember anyone saying that eating meat is superior, if anything vegetarians/vegans are the worst because they think that just because they kill things that are green (and occasionally other colors) instead of pumping blood they're superior. 
 
If I were you I wouldn't try preaching to anyone, it's a sure way to get yourself told off big time. The hell should anyone care about the cows or whatnot that were born and raised for the sole purpose of being knocked out, strung upside down and then having their throats cut? Actually I'm going to be studying to be a butcher soon and the teacher told me I could probably breeze through the class, so if anything I'll be making profit by turning gigantic carcasses into not quite bit-sized pieces. It's actually pretty fun too, especially when you start up the dreaded table saw and cut through 10 ribs, almost loosing your fingers can be such a thrill.

Posted by LordXavierBritish
@DevWil: 
This shit is happening now. We've made extraordinary leaps in Biology very recently, and the medical benefits of such research is too great to be ignored. Synthetic meat is a reality at this point, because when synthetic organs are completed all the necessary work to create synthetic, edible tissue would already have been done. Arthur C. Clarke was a very intelligent man, though ultimately an idealist. The first synthetic cell has been created, and the time is now.
 
What I'm really struggling to understand is how can say your choice to be a Vegetarian is saving anything. By your definition, the only way you could actually live by your beliefs and not be a complete hypocrite would be to eat food grown on small local farms. Now, maybe you do do that but, I'm going to go with the safe bet and assume you don't. By eating any processed food you are actively funding the companies that  destroy enormous amounts of land each year, subsequently destroying the habitats of thousands of animals.
 
You aren't killing an animal with your bare hands when you eat meat from the slaughter house, so you and me are on the exact same level when it comes to harming wild life.
Posted by hedfone

woooooah text overload

Posted by TooWalrus
@DevWil:  
@Virago: 
 
The world needs more vegetarians like Virago and less like the OP. Thanks for NOT being a total douche, Virago.
Posted by habster3

I must say that after reading your response, you showed enough intelligence regarding the debate to make me think this is not a troublesome thread; at first, I thought you may have been a vegetarian based off the title (sorry, didn't read beginning), but now I see that you are, in fact, trying to gain ground with the ones I thought you may have been working against. I would say that your argument is perfect, but the convoluted structures of some of your sentences weakens the point. Good job on a decent argument, though.

Edited by DevWil
@LordXavierBritish said:

" @DevWil: 
 What vegetarianism is asking for is the complete genocide of millions of animals. "  

 
see, this is where you lose me. 
 
first of all, i think you're exaggerating.  secondly, i'm not concerned with the political or global effects of the vegetarian movement.  it'll probably always be a minority lifestyle.  but to answer your question: no, i'm not particularly bothered by the prospect of domesticated livestock species going extinct.  it's better than continuing to breed them just to destroy them.  i'm not invested in the number of species alive on earth, but also you seem to be ignoring that the number of species we've domesticated is a vast minority.
 
arthur c. clarke seemed to think that a space elevator was reasonably likely to exist in his lifetime.  hasn't happened.  so many technologies are deemed possible and then are never heard from again.  this could very well (and, in my opinion, very likely) be the case with synthetic meat. 
 
the whole thing seems irrelevant to my choice to be a vegetarian.  you don't seem to be accepting that my motivation isn't quite the preservation of animals.  when Cow #158392 is slaughtered for beef, i'd prefer that it was never born to live its life as nothing more than a food resource.  i know that it's going to die once it's born into the system, though.  i'm not crazy; i know i'm not saving that cow's life.  i also know that, by not eating meat (and, in this case specifically: beef), i'm not the one responsible for that cow's death (or miserable life, for that matter). 
 
it's about non-violence toward sentient beings; vegetarianism (in my case) is not an angry protest against death itself. 
 
edit: 
while i'm emphasizing how personal vegetarianism is for me, i obviously need to address that i'm promoting it with this blog.  as i've said, i'm not asking people to think about animals differently.  i'm asking people to think about animals the same way they already do, but not compartmentalize.  i want people to appreciate that a sentient being necessarily dies for them to eat meat.  if truly appreciating that fact doesn't change their mind about meat, there isn't much i can do.
Posted by LordXavierBritish
@DevWil: 
Yes she is an idiot, but you are missing the point. Agriculture kills life. Agriculture has killed life for millenia, that's just how it works. To create and sustain viable amounts of crops for our ever expanding population, ecosystems are torn down and obliterated. Hell, just look at the rain forests, that's a prime example of this happening every day.
 
The person that wrote the book is severely detached from how society works now. She is hell bent on saving the world, like you said, but she doesn't seem to realize that the world can't work in the way she wants it to.
 
And I didn't give you shit for science fiction:
First Synthetic Cell 
Artificial Organ Printer
Artificial Tissue
Artificial Meat
 
And for domesticated animal life being dependent on humanity, well that's pretty much the definition of domestication. If everyone stops eating meat, either by  the introduction of artificial meat or by vegetarianism, the effort made to keep those animal populations alive will no longer seem like a worthy cause for most companies. Those animals will die out and cease to exist outside of small populations that may be maintained by groups of scientists. What vegetarianism is asking for is the complete genocide of millions of animals. Now obviously, this is going to eventually happen because all in all the destruction of those animals is better for the environment, however you are opposed to this so I would really like to see how you justify being a vegetarian under that pretense.

And please, how about doing some research into the shit I'm talking about before telling me I'm on drugs next time yeah?
Posted by PNut_Buttr_Panda

sadly the fact of the matter is that human biology is specifically designed to consume meat AND potatoes.

Posted by DevWil
@LordXavierBritish:  
 
thanks for the intelligent rebuttal of my arguments. 
 
oh wait, that's not what you gave me.  you seem to have given me crazy science fiction.  try not to do mushrooms before arguing. 
 
i'm sorry to be so disrespectful, but you've been totally disrespectful to me. 
 
i read about four pages of that book and it really seems like the author is crazy.   she seems like she doesn't have a healthy way of dealing with death.  i read a little bit of an interview with her and she seems to be saying that everything that exists needs to be torn down because too many things are dying. 
 
she's speaking from a perspective that i can't sympathize with.  i'm not a vegetarian so i can save the world.  she seems hell-bent on saving the world and somehow she realized that vegetarianism either isn't enough or isn't the answer, it seems.  cool.  i don't care. 
 
as a buddhist, i put a lot of stock in the idea of impermanence (which is kind of an oxymoronic idea to express that way, oddly enough).  i understand that the natural way of things is to decay and die.  everyone gets old; everybody dies.  we shouldn't act surprised when it happens and we shouldn't be afraid of it. 
 
that said, i don't believe in violence.  i'm that guy who disapproves of killing a spider if it's crawling on your shirt at a picnic.   even if death is inevitable, i don't think that i have the right to inflict it upon sentient beings for no good reason.
 
the revolution isn't coming and it wouldn't work anyways.  the best you can do is--to put it simply--try not to be an asshole.  i think that eating meat is kind of an asshole thing to do.  vegetarianism doesn't save the world or even all of the animals, but i never expected it to.
Posted by LordXavierBritish
Posted by LordXavierBritish
@FiestaUnicorn: 
 
 <3
Posted by FiestaUnicorn
@LordXavierBritish said:
"@DevWil:  
I had a really long page stretching post to refute all the points you made, but then I had a better idea.
 
I am going to explain to you the state society is in and why the ethics of animal rights simply isn't a factor anymore.
 
Man is at an interesting cross road now because, when taken to the extreme, most animals are pretty much just left overs from the evolutionary war. We won the game, and in a century or perhaps even just a few decades the need for both plants and animals will be absolute nil. Wildlife should still be preserved of course, though it would really be only to the benefit of scholars.
 
Look, I know it's kind of hard to see the point I'm driving at because quite frankly I'm not even sure what I'm talking about now. There have been a shit load of scientific breakthroughs recently regarding synthetic tissue as of late and what the future holds is both very exciting and very unknown.
 
Let me phrase it in the form of a hypothetical.
 
Mankind is sitting at a decision and has two options and no way out. To continue the advancement of the human race, all wildlife outside of perserved specimens must be destroyed. No species will become extincted, and every animal is kept within a state of the art storage facility which simulates it's natural environment and populations of each species are regulated and monitored. Each little pocket of life is kept within a perfectly secure building accessible for both scholarly work and is open to the general public. A majority of Earth's animals though.
 
So what would you chose? The stagnation of human civilization, or the lives of trillions of animals.
 
That may seem like a radical concept to you, but is it really? Many animals are basically commodities at this point. They aren't much good for anything other than eating. These domesticated weaklings can no longer survive on their own, they are already extinct. Chickens, cows, pigs,  and all the other animals we have kept for companionship or food. They are no longer animals, they are goods. As much as most people hate to admit it, those animals are as good as dead.
 
What do you think would happen to domesticated animals if we decided to stop eating meat? Do you expect us to spend billions of dollars to keep the vast populations of these creatures alive? Are we supposed to just release them back into the wild? Do you expect most, if any, of these creatures to survive in our urbanized world, let alone the wild? What is the better option? Would you like them to all go at once or should we continue actually using them?
 
Vegatarians like to act like not eating animals is ethically correct, like it is morally right; but do you ever stop to consider the long term implications of your lifestyle? 
 
By being a Vegetarian you seek to ultimately destroy the very animal life you claim you wish to save.  It's too late to turn back the clock, the world is what it is and the lives of the animals you want to save were lost a long long time ago. I want to see your perfect world. I want to see the thousands of miles of land covered in the corpses of animals that have died from starvation or been killed by predators. I want to see a world in which the cow doesn't go "moo" because the cow is fucking dead.  Oh sure, some of them could be saved in facilities like Zoos, but how is that any better? That's just leading back to my hypothetical question, in fact it is the same exact choice.  Choose. The lives of billions animals, or a world of Vegetarians.  Go.  What needs to be changed is how we treat animals, not how we use them. That is what it comes down to. "

you're dumb.
Posted by LordXavierBritish
@DevWil:  
I had a really long page stretching post to refute all the points you made, but then I had a better idea.
 
I am going to explain to you the state society is in and why the ethics of animal rights simply isn't a factor anymore.
 
Man is at an interesting cross road now because, when taken to the extreme, most animals are pretty much just left overs from the evolutionary war. We won the game, and in a century or perhaps even just a few decades the need for both plants and animals will be absolute nil. Wildlife should still be preserved of course, though it would really be only to the benefit of scholars.
 
Look, I know it's kind of hard to see the point I'm driving at because quite frankly I'm not even sure what I'm talking about now. There have been a shit load of scientific breakthroughs recently regarding synthetic tissue as of late and what the future holds is both very exciting and very unknown.
 
Let me phrase it in the form of a hypothetical.
 
Mankind is sitting at a decision and has two options and no way out. To continue the advancement of the human race, all wildlife outside of perserved specimens must be destroyed. No species will become extincted, and every animal is kept within a state of the art storage facility which simulates it's natural environment and populations of each species are regulated and monitored. Each little pocket of life is kept within a perfectly secure building accessible for both scholarly work and is open to the general public. A majority of Earth's animals though.
 
So what would you chose? The stagnation of human civilization, or the lives of trillions of animals.
 
That may seem like a radical concept to you, but is it really? Many animals are basically commodities at this point. They aren't much good for anything other than eating. These domesticated weaklings can no longer survive on their own, they are already extinct. Chickens, cows, pigs,  and all the other animals we have kept for companionship or food. They are no longer animals, they are goods. As much as most people hate to admit it, those animals are as good as dead.
 
What do you think would happen to domesticated animals if we decided to stop eating meat? Do you expect us to spend billions of dollars to keep the vast populations of these creatures alive? Are we supposed to just release them back into the wild? Do you expect most, if any, of these creatures to survive in our urbanized world, let alone the wild? What is the better option? Would you like them to all go at once or should we continue actually using them?
 
Vegatarians like to act like not eating animals is ethically correct, like it is morally right; but do you ever stop to consider the long term implications of your lifestyle? 
 
By being a Vegetarian you seek to ultimately destroy the very animal life you claim you wish to save.
 
It's too late to turn back the clock, the world is what it is and the lives of the animals you want to save were lost a long long time ago. I want to see your perfect world. I want to see the thousands of miles of land covered in the corpses of animals that have died from starvation or been killed by predators. I want to see a world in which the cow doesn't go "moo" because the cow is fucking dead.
 
Oh sure, some of them could be saved in facilities like Zoos, but how is that any better? That's just leading back to my hypothetical question, in fact it is the same exact choice.
 
Choose. The lives of billions animals, or a world of Vegetarians.
 
Go.
 
What needs to be changed is how we treat animals, not how we use them. That is what it comes down to.
Posted by blackbird415

Everything is perception. Everything is an illusion. You are simply in continuous dreams. Every time you die you simply wake to a new life as a new person. Have fun as you know it, cause when you die none of it will truly matter. In the end we all die in out own shit. Therefore I eat tasty food vegetarian or not. 

Posted by AlwaysAngry

I like steak so rare, it moos at me. 
 
 
You're not going to change that.

Edited by Broitman

I'm not really wanting to jump into this conversation I just want to correct a misconception I've seen in said this thread a few times now.  

I've seen a lot of people on both sides use bears as an example of carnivores but in fact most bears (polar bears are mainly carnivorous but barren tundra will do that) are omnivores eating plants (mainly berries if I remember correctly), bugs, honey, and yes of course meat. Their diet changes depending of course on season and region and during their preparation for hibernation the eat mainly meat because they need to store fat but the point remains that they are not strict carnivores but rather omnivores. 
 
As for my own preference well I like meat and always have but that choice is mine and I can definitely understand where others are coming from with their own dietary habits.

Edited by DevWil
@LordXavierBritish said:

" @DevWil: May  I say, your ignorance of basic human biology is pretty astounding. Humans are built to eat meat. That is a fact. If we were meant to not eat meat we wouldn't have a set of canine teeth and our bodies would reject flesh. My logic is completely sound, your thinly vield excuse is akin to the work of a mad evangelist.   Oh, and please feel free to insult me all you like when it comes to my refrencing, but I figured you'd be clever enough to find the larger article on your own.  First off, plants actively try to survive. They react to their evirnoments and communicate with each other. That's about all a majority of animals do. Intelligence by your description is something that has only been observed in primates and some other mammals. If you want to talk about emotions, then I care even less. Even our emtions are simply chemical reactions brought about by the events we experience. What seperates us from animals is cognition, as I said before, and it is a very rare occurence and definetly does not occur with the common barn yard crew like cows, pigs, and chickens.  Also, plants do have a nervous system.They couldn't respond to the environment without one. It is actually far more sensitive than the human nervous system, and while it may not be as complex as our own plants are capable of feeling a sesnation similar to pain.  Another point, meat-eaters like myself are hurting animals just as much as you. Even if I stopped today, nothing would change. If 1,000 people stopped today, nothing would change. I can keep eating meat and still fight for humane treatment of animals if I want to, being a vegetarian is just a self-fuffling excuse to make people feel better instead of getting up and doing something. Trying to convince people to be Vegetarian isn't helping any animals.   Another thing, you wouldn't even be alive if your ancestors hadn't eaten meat. Vegetarianism is a phenomenon that only occurs within a civilization of at least rudimentary status. Vegitarians cannot even exist without agriculutre and food surpluses, this is a fact. All humans were at one point hunter-gathers and we had to kill animals to survive. That is instinct, that is nature. Let's just face facts, because this is what it comes down to; there is absolutely no scientific or historic basis that justifies Vegetarianism. Vegetarians are people that throw out scientific concepts they only have a loose understanding of because they like to play make believe and pretend that animals can operate on a similar mental and emotional level that we do.  That is complete and total horse shit.  You said it yourself, it makes you feel better, and tha'ts all it is.  Vegetarianism goes against nature, goes against science, and it contributes nothing but bullshit fanatics to soceity. It's a disease that has consumed this new wave of liberal ignorance who use shit like Vegetarianism to take a moral high ground on issues they know nothing about so that they can feel smarter than any one else.  I'm a human, and I eat meat. I'm a person, and I care about animal cruelty. I can be both of those things because I have dedicated the time and energy to actually learning about the world I live in instead of grabbing on to the closest feel good wagon.  And for the record, I read the fucking thread. "


 "Humans are built to eat meat." 
 
No.  Humans are able to eat meat.  You're claiming that because we can, we must.  I'm able to steal a shotgun and shoot someone in the head.  I'm not going to, because I find it unethical.  I don't steal and I don't shoot people in the head with shotguns.  Those aren't controversial values.
 
My argument against your logic isn't mad; it's logic.  Your argument is not logically sound.  That's all I can say.  You and other meat-eaters keep acting like you have logic on your side, but if you actually boiled it down to the facts about human biology and used real logic, you would be surprised.  I'm not simply using the word 'logic' like some 16-year-old atheist trying to prove a Christian wrong; I've studied the subject and I know what I'm talking about.
 
Half of what you're saying in this post you already said in the previous and I'm not going to address it again.  You took it a step further to include cognition in your argument, which is fine, but it doesn't make my position invalid in the slightest.  I'm not appealing to our similarities to animals on the basis that humans can write and understand language.  I'm appealing to fundamental biological truths about mammalian nervous systems (as most meat that humans eat is mammalian, I believe).  Birds have similar nervous systems as well.  If you really think you have biology on your side, find some studies that prove me wrong.  You seem like you care enough to.
 
Boycotting something makes you not responsible for its existence.  I don't buy ad time during the Super Bowl, I don't watch football, and I don't buy NFL merchandise.  Therefore, I'm not responsible for the NFL's existence.  This isn't a meaningless comparison.  Again, I can't single-handedly take down the meat industry any better than I can take down the NFL (not that I'd like to).  I can, however, single-handedly not be responsible for it.  I feel like I'm going over the same points over and over and  I don't know why I have to.
 
If 1 person boycotts the meat industry, it doesn't make an appreciable dent.  I'll concede that any day of the week.  However, when you say that if 1,000 people wouldn't make a difference, you sound like you aren't even thinking about what you're saying.  Any effort makes some difference, significant or not.  As soon as you start increasing the number of people not supporting a product/business/etc, the impact becomes greater.  I don't see what's controversial about this.  According to you, there's some magic number that makes vegetarianism matter once its subscribers are that number in population.  Is it when 73,000 people stop eating meat?  152,000?  2 million?  3 billion? 
 
How did Modern Warfare 2 break video game sales records?  A lot of individuals bought it.  How does vegetarianism affect the meat industry?  When a bunch of individuals subscribe to it.  This shouldn't be a contentious point at all.  I asked you for a suggestion to affect the meat industry and you didn't give me one.  It doesn't seem like you're actually listening to what I'm saying. 
 
If you want to be a strict materialist and tell me that everything is simply a chemical reaction and its complexity doesn't make a difference in how we understand and interact with the world around us, I'll listen to what you have to say, but I'll also stay far away from you because a strict materialist doesn't value life as anything but a sort of bio-electricity.  I have materialist leanings myself, but at some point our human nature precludes us from seeing the world in strictly materialist ways.  I'm not telling you that you have a soul; I'm saying that we don't value things purely based on their chemical composition. (Edit: I'm also not saying you're a bad person and therefore don't have a soul, I'm talking about dualism versus materialism)
 
You did get one thing correct: my ancestors ate meat.  My parents both still eat meat.  It's irrelevant.  If one of your parents kills someone, I'm not going to hold you responsible.  I hold myself responsible for my actions, which includes whether or not I eat meat.  I think the moral implications of eating meat outweigh the convenience, so I don't do it.  In 2010, eating meat is far from necessary.  It hasn't been necessary for a very long time.
 
You say that not eating meat goes against nature.  So what?  Building houses goes against nature; that doesn't mean it's bad.  Speaking a language, writing music, exploring non-violent solutions, and so many other things that humans can be proud of go against nature.  Stop wearing clothes, using money, using language, or doing anything but gathering food you can acquire with your bare hands if you want to champion nature so strictly (and notice that plants put up much less of a fight than most animals).  Go reproduce without consent or sentimentality if you think we're just brutal animals who need not answer to anything but primal urges.
 
Vegetarianism goes against science?  How?  Dietitians recognize vegetarianism (as well as veganism) as a healthy diet.  Red meat is strongly associated with colon cancer and I can speak to a case supporting that association: my uncle ate a lot of red meat and died from colon cancer fairly early (not that one incidence proves a theory).  Every time you eat red meat, I can easily (and more successfully) argue that you're the one going against science.  
 
No historical support for vegetarianism?  What does that even mean?  Historical support?  There are centuries-old vegetarian cultures.  I don't know what you're even trying to say.
 
I'd consider saying more, but there's no chance that you're changing your mind.  I shouldn't have even said this much.  Feel free to continue the debate, but I'm not going to repeat myself.
Posted by ArchScabby

Where would all those cows live if we didn't eat meat?  WHERE?!!  They would be everywhere, and they would want revenge. BLOOD THIRSTY COWS MAN!  It would be like the fucking zombie apocalypse except with cows!  OH MY GOD! I'll be right back I'm going to go buy as much steak as I can.

Posted by LordXavierBritish
@DevWil: 
May  I say, your ignorance of basic human biology is pretty astounding. Humans are built to eat meat. That is a fact. If we were meant to not eat meat we wouldn't have a set of canine teeth and our bodies would reject flesh. My logic is completely sound, your thinly vield excuse is akin to the work of a mad evangelist. 
  
Oh, and please feel free to insult me all you like when it comes to my refrencing, but I figured you'd be clever enough to find the larger article on your own. 
 
First off, plants actively try to survive. They react to their evirnoments and communicate with each other. That's about all a majority of animals do. Intelligence by your description is something that has only been observed in primates and some other mammals. If you want to talk about emotions, then I care even less. Even our emtions are simply chemical reactions brought about by the events we experience. What seperates us from animals is cognition, as I said before, and it is a very rare occurence and definetly does not occur with the common barn yard crew like cows, pigs, and chickens. 
 
Also, plants do have a nervous system.They couldn't respond to the environment without one. It is actually far more sensitive than the human nervous system, and while it may not be as complex as our own plants are capable of feeling a sesnation similar to pain. 
 
Another point, meat-eaters like myself are hurting animals just as much as you. Even if I stopped today, nothing would change. If 1,000 people stopped today, nothing would change. I can keep eating meat and still fight for humane treatment of animals if I want to, being a vegetarian is just a self-fuffling excuse to make people feel better instead of getting up and doing something. Trying to convince people to be Vegetarian isn't helping any animals.  
 
Another thing, you wouldn't even be alive if your ancestors hadn't eaten meat. Vegetarianism is a phenomenon that only occurs within a civilization of at least rudimentary status. Vegitarians cannot even exist without agriculutre and food surpluses, this is a fact. All humans were at one point hunter-gathers and we had to kill animals to survive. That is instinct, that is nature.
 
Let's just face facts, because this is what it comes down to; there is absolutely no scientific or historic basis that justifies Vegetarianism. Vegetarians are people that throw out scientific concepts they only have a loose understanding of because they like to play make believe and pretend that animals can operate on a similar mental and emotional level that we do. 
 
That is complete and total horse shit. 
 
You said it yourself, it makes you feel better, and tha'ts all it is. 
 
Vegetarianism goes against nature, goes against science, and it contributes nothing but bullshit fanatics to soceity. It's a disease that has consumed this new wave of liberal ignorance who use shit like Vegetarianism to take a moral high ground on issues they know nothing about so that they can feel smarter than any one else. 
 
I'm a human, and I eat meat. I'm a person, and I care about animal cruelty. I can be both of those things because I have dedicated the time and energy to actually learning about the world I live in instead of grabbing on to the closest feel good wagon. 
 
And for the record, I read the fucking thread.
Posted by ninjakiller
@DevWil said:
" @ninjakiller said:

" This thread is shit, vegetarians are preachy pussies, lock it already. "

i'm sure Georges Laraque would have an interesting reaction if you called him a pussy.  considering he made a video for PETA, you could call him preachy, too!
 
if this thread is locked, i'll be very disappointed in the GB mods.  it's a real, constructive debate that i think i've kept respectful for the most part.  if it devolves into "you're a shit person, meat eater" and "you're a pussy faggot, veggieboy", sure, consider locking it down.  it's not even in the wrong forum like the thread that someone made in response to this, and that one isn't locked.  this one has gone hundreds of comments without a lock or warning, and i hope for the sake of responsible discourse that doesn't change.  also, if you really want this thread to die, don't comment on it.  except for posting a link to a medical journal explaining how vegetarians can be perfectly healthy, i haven't bumped this blog once.  i've simply been reacting to other users' comments. "
Hockey?   Why doesn't he just take up ballet and get it over with?
Posted by DevWil
@habster3 said:
" This thread has led to nothing but anger from vegetarians, and this is coming from someone who hates veggies. This has gone on for way too long. This should be locked. "
it's led to awareness and constructive debate.  more than one person has told me, either in the thread or in a PM, that i have made them consider the issue more deeply. 
 
when this becomes a pissing match, maybe it'll deserve a lock.  we're not there yet.  my second-to-last post was addressing a brand new point: if plants are intelligent because they have reactions.  if new, relevant points are still coming up, the thread certainly still deserves to exist.  

and, again, if your only comment is "Lock it.", PM a mod rather than bump the thread.
Posted by habster3

This thread has led to nothing but anger from vegetarians, and this is coming from someone who hates veggies. This has gone on for way too long. This should be locked.

Edited by DevWil
@ninjakiller said:

" This thread is shit, vegetarians are preachy pussies, lock it already. "

i'm sure Georges Laraque would have an interesting reaction if you called him a pussy.  considering he made a video for PETA, you could call him preachy, too!
 
if this thread is locked, i'll be very disappointed in the GB mods.  it's a real, constructive debate that i think i've kept respectful for the most part.  if it devolves into "you're a shit person, meat eater" and "you're a pussy faggot, veggieboy", sure, consider locking it down.  it's not even in the wrong forum like the thread that someone made in response to this, and that one isn't locked.  this one has gone hundreds of comments without a lock or warning, and i hope for the sake of responsible discourse that doesn't change. 
 
also, if you really want this thread to die, don't comment on it.  except for posting a link to a medical journal explaining how vegetarians can be perfectly healthy, i haven't bumped this blog once.  i've simply been reacting to other users' comments.
Posted by ninjakiller

This thread is shit, vegetarians are preachy pussies, lock it already.

Posted by Cube

Oh beat it to fucking death, stop bumping this hopeless shit 
 
wait

Edited by DevWil
@LordXavierBritish said:

" @DevWil: 
 Before I start, let me say this. I am going to refute every one of your claims and prove that nearly every form of Vegetarianism is ultimately futile and completely self-fufilling 
 
I expect a reply.
 
Ok first off, being a vegetarian because "eating animals is wrong" is stupid. That isn't why a lot of vegetarians are vegetartians. They are vegetarians because they don't approve of the inhumane treatment that animals recieve in the slaughter house or before hand. You see, eating meat it nature. That's just how it works. This happens every day: 

  

  
  
Now obviously if you are a vegetarian becuase you want to protest the meat packing industry, then I also don't care because you aren't actually doing something to stop it. Eating vegetables does not "Stick it to the Man." You aren't doing anything to help those animals, in fact you are still being as complicit as you were when you ate meat.
 
Let me restate that. 
  
VEGETARIANISM DOESN'T HELP ANIMALS 
 
Finally, plants are fucking intelligent. This isn't news, it's been known for quite awhile. Just because you can look at the face of an animal and see some similarity to your own being, that doesn't mean it has the same brain processes as you. Most animals aren't even aware of their own existence, it is a rare few that actually have even rudimentary consciousness. 
 
If you want to help animals then put down the damn veggy burger and actually do something. "
you expect a reply?  i expect someone to read a thread before commenting so confidently.  you didn't do that.  however, being how invested you seem to be, i'll answer you: 
  
yet again, someone appeals to existing carnivorous species to justify human meat-eating.  birds are animals.  birds can fly (without human technology). humans are animals.  therefore, humans can fly (without human technology).  that's the kind of logic you're using. 
 
am i personally affecting the meat industry?  it's highly unlikely that i'm affecting them in any significant way, but that's no reason for me not to be a vegetarian.  why not murder people, they're just going to die eventually anyway, right?   
 
i'm not motivated by politics; i'm motivated by ethics.  i feel like i'm a better person for not eating meat.   i don't feel like i'm single-handedly taking down the meat industry.  people will probably always eat meat.  i don't have to be party to it and i'd rather not.
 
what do you suggest i do?  i have two options: violently attack slaughterhouses (which would be ironic in a terrible way) or encourage other people to stop eating meat.  i'm doing the latter.  if you want to attack vegetarians who never talk about it for not doing anything to help the world, go ahead.  i've very nearly been doing that myself in these threads about vegetarianism.
 
plants are not intelligent.  reacting to stimuli does not necessarily denote intelligence.   feel free to correct me, but i think that even comatose persons still retain their reflexes (when tapped in the knee, etc).  i believe (but i'm not well-versed enough in biology to say so authoritatively) that such reactions are handled by your spine.  your spine isn't what makes you an intelligent being.
 
computers can react to input as well, but that doesn't make them worthy of ethical consideration.  if you'd been more responsible, you'd have linked me to this article. the blog you sent me to is a piece of a longer article that cites the article that i've just provided.  the article basically just explains how plants have self-defense mechanisms.   
 
so what?  practically any living thing that has survived hundreds or thousands of years as a species does.  to use the computer comparison again: if your computer has anti-virus or anti-malware software, you don't take formatting the hard drive into ethical consideration.
 
there's no intelligence to these processes, though; they are biological reactions on a much simpler level than anything considered intelligent.   
 
if you have an allergy and are exposed to that allergen and then your skin breaks out into a rash: that was not intelligence.  if it was up to your intelligence, you wouldn't have that allergic reaction at all!   
 
plants do not have intelligence.  they have genetic traits that are expressed in evolutionarily advantageous characteristics.  these characteristics are no more intelligent than your ability to grow hair. 
 
your computer doesn't have an intelligent reaction when you scratch its case.  a blade of grass doesn't feel anything when you mow your lawn.  however, a typical mammal, when cut with a knife while still alive, has a reaction that is indisputably similar to what a human feels when they are cut.  i'm not saying that animals necessarily suffer when they're killed for meat (as i do understand that there are relatively humane ways of ending their lives); i'm saying that animals are more like humans than meat-eaters are willing to admit.  because of that, we should be able to be compassionate and not wish that they be created just to be violently destroyed (humanely or not). 
 
meat-eaters are quick to defend their lifestyle (as an animal) with examples of carnivorous animals, but when approached with the fact that most animals they eat have a nervous system comparable to our own (with nerve endings and, more commonly than you'd probably assume, emotions), they'll hear nothing of it. 
 
does my own vegetarianism help animals?  maybe not.  but it doesn't actively hurt animals and meat-eating indisputably does.  furthermore, if 5% of the population doesn't eat meat, that's that many fewer animals that are killed for the sake of human consumption.
 
i'm interested in reading your response.

@Turbofirejames said:

" People killing animals for food is what it is man.   I wish people would stop killing people for no good reason. One of my former class mates just got gunned down outside of his house, no reason.... humans should be smart enough to stop that kind of violence.   I dont know what diet is better for people. I dont know the morality of eating meat. For now, the only killing that bothers me is human on human.   "

maybe if, as a society, we were more opposed to violence towards all animals, we'd be less inclined to hurt other humans.
Posted by Turbofirejames

People killing animals for food is what it is man.  
 
I wish people would stop killing people for no good reason. One of my former class mates just got gunned down outside of his house, no reason.... humans should be smart enough to stop that kind of violence.  
 
I dont know what diet is better for people. I dont know the morality of eating meat. For now, the only killing that bothers me is human on human.  
Posted by LordXavierBritish
@DevWil: 
 Before I start, let me say this. I am going to refute every one of your claims and prove that nearly every form of Vegetarianism is ultimately futile and completely self-fufilling 
 
I expect a reply.
 
Ok first off, being a vegetarian because "eating animals is wrong" is stupid. That isn't why a lot of vegetarians are vegetartians. They are vegetarians because they don't approve of the inhumane treatment that animals recieve in the slaughter house or before hand. You see, eating meat it nature. That's just how it works. This happens every day: 

  
  
  
Now obviously if you are a vegetarian becuase you want to protest the meat packing industry, then I also don't care because you aren't actually doing something to stop it. Eating vegetables does not "Stick it to the Man." You aren't doing anything to help those animals, in fact you are still being as complicit as you were when you ate meat.
 
Let me restate that. 
  
VEGETARIANISM DOESN'T HELP ANIMALS 
 
Finally, plants are fucking intelligent. This isn't news, it's been known for quite awhile. Just because you can look at the face of an animal and see some similarity to your own being, that doesn't mean it has the same brain processes as you. Most animals aren't even aware of their own existence, it is a rare few that actually have even rudimentary consciousness. 
 
If you want to help animals then put down the damn veggy burger and actually do something.
Posted by JazzyJeff

Haha, DevWil! I can't believe this thread is still going on! Keep on standing up for your beliefs, man!

Edited by DevWil
@Heylook said:

" @DevWil: LONG THREAD IS LONG.  Seriously, just give up dude. I respect you, in fact I haven't had meat in about 2 weeks (not because of you, I just can't afford it right now, yay college) but man, this isn't the place for intense idiololigical debates like this. No one cares about your choices and you should know that by now. Sorry if it's frusterating but life tends to be that way, your best plan is to just accept and move on.   People will always eat meat, they always have. You may not like it, I may not like it. I feel sick as shit when I watch documentaries on the matter, when I see pigs thrown and tossed by their legs into holding areas way past their limit (not that I eat pork anyway, too dirty) but I still accept that others will eat it.   Would you go to a 3rd world country and ask the residents of said country to stop eating meat? No because they NEED it.   tl;dr  I'm sorry you hate so much, but get used to it. Or kill yourself (no don't, that's silly). "

i appreciate what you're saying, but don't misunderstand how ambitious i am.  i'm not trying to change the whole world with a giant bomb blog.  i just want people who wouldn't dream of killing a mammal themselves to re-consider if eating meat is worth inflicting the violence that they seem to be able to appreciate as undesirable. 
 
@MrSnow: 
 
i've addressed arguments like yours already, so i'll just say that--while our perspectives and values differ in core ways--you have to realize that your argument holds no water.  we don't take advantage of humans when they're physically weaker than us; we actually tend to try to care for them.  i'm not saying cow = human.  i'm saying your argument doesn't make as much sense as you think it does.
Posted by MrSnow

I is a farmer.  
 
We are animals. And we are the most intelligentanimal 
 
therefore we have control of the planet and can do what we like with it. 
 Animals (less humans) are our bitch.

Posted by Heylook
@DevWil:
LONG THREAD IS LONG.
 
Seriously, just give up dude. I respect you, in fact I haven't had meat in about 2 weeks (not because of you, I just can't afford it right now, yay college) but man, this isn't the place for intense idiololigical debates like this. No one cares about your choices and you should know that by now. Sorry if it's frusterating but life tends to be that way, your best plan is to just accept and move on. 
 
People will always eat meat, they always have. You may not like it, I may not like it. I feel sick as shit when I watch documentaries on the matter, when I see pigs thrown and tossed by their legs into holding areas way past their limit (not that I eat pork anyway, too dirty) but I still accept that others will eat it. 
 
Would you go to a 3rd world country and ask the residents of said country to stop eating meat? No because they NEED it. 
 
tl;dr
 
I'm sorry you hate so much, but get used to it. Or kill yourself (no don't, that's silly).
Edited by DevWil
@skinnyman said:

" People may have legitimate religious or health-related reasons for being vegetarian, but the "ethical" argument doesn't hold water. Why? Because just as many animals are crushed in combines while harvesting grains each year as are killed in slaughterhouses. Maddox breaks it down nicely for you here.
"

old.
 
it's not about the number of animals killed, it's about not supporting an industry that creates sentient beings just to destroy them.
 
nobody harvesting grain is willing that animals die.  animals die every day and i'm i've killed a lot of insects without knowing or willing it.  that isn't the point. 
 
maddox may ridicule the idea that vegetarians aren't willing the deaths of all these animals, but that really is the point. 
 
furthermore, the article maddox refers to doesn't cite any specific studies.  find those studies, and i'll find your argument more impressive.  maddox is certainly not one to shy away from exaggeration and i find it unlikely that i'm killing more animals by not eating meat than if i were to eat meat.
Posted by skinnyman

People may have legitimate religious or health-related reasons for being vegetarian, but the "ethical" argument doesn't hold water. Why? Because just as many animals are crushed in combines while harvesting grains each year as are killed in slaughterhouses. Maddox breaks it down nicely for you here.

Edited by DevWil
@Whisperkill:  
 
it's hard not to laugh at the poetry of someone crying out against elitism when they can't spell it.


 
@TheHBK

said:

" Dude, plants do a lot more for us than animals.  Why kill them?  All living things have to eat other living things to survive.  Including plants having to take in decayed material (ie. compost and fertilizer).  We get oxygen from plants and they dont take a shit in the backyard.  Our increased brain mass and therefore ability to be more awesome than other animals comes form eating meat. "

seriously, plants don't have central nervous systems.  i mean it.  really. 
 
i think you're mistaken about all living things needing to eat other living things to survive.  regardless, i don't see why we can't avoid eating things with brains.
Posted by EdIsCool
@Whisperkill said:
" @DevWil: Fuck You. Take your hippy vegetarian bullshit elsewhere.  People are supposed to eat meat. Its a scientific FACT. Don't push your fucking douchebag eletist ways on people who aren't like you. "
see defensive, they know that what they do is wrong, and they really dont like being told so. Yes people are supposed to eat meat, I should also be cheating on my girlfriend multiple times a night and destroying all rivals. Due to our unique position in the animal kingdom, that of always having a surplus of calories we have developed music,politics,art. We awesome monkeys now have a choice. Do we opt in or out of killing? Millions of peopke survive without eating meat, therefore it is not necessary to eat meat.Therefore the killing of animals for meat is wrong.
Posted by TheHBK

Dude, plants do a lot more for us than animals.  Why kill them?  All living things have to eat other living things to survive.  Including plants having to take in decayed material (ie. compost and fertilizer).  We get oxygen from plants and they dont take a shit in the backyard.  Our increased brain mass and therefore ability to be more awesome than other animals comes form eating meat.

Posted by Whisperkill
@DevWil: Fuck You. Take your hippy vegetarian bullshit elsewhere. 
 
People are supposed to eat meat. Its a scientific FACT. Don't push your fucking douchebag eletist ways on people who aren't like you.
Posted by DevWil
@Brendan said:
" @DevWil: Other animals kill each other for food constantly.  It's how the ecosystem works.  Human's overconsumption of animals due to such a large population would be the exact same for plants if we all stopped eating meat and made roomo for the whole world to be covered by farmland.  "
i don't see your point at all. yes, some animals eat other animals.  humans don't have to be like that and because we have the option not to eat animals, we should take it (imo).  if you really don't think it matters one way or another, i'll probably never change your mind. 
 
i don't really understand what you're trying to say with your final sentence. 
 
@EdIsCool: you're not wrong, sir.
Edited by EdIsCool

 I'm always amazed how meat eaters react when the topic gets around to "So Ed, you're a vegatarian".
it's like talking to a cult member, they get very defensive and come out with rubbish like "you're not gonna change me".Instead of actually thinking.
 
For me the immorality comes from how easy it is not to eat meat. I loved meat..I mean I really LOVED MEAT. But Morrissey with one line not a paticularly deep line changed me.
"This beautiful creature must die" 
and also "a death for no reason, and death for no reason is murder"
Eating meat  has no reason beyond its tasty. A point I wont deny, but it involves being complicit in causing suffering,pain and death as well as stress and discomfort during transport to innocent beautiful creatures. Doing something as bad  as eating meat just because you enjoy it is very immoral to me.
 
 " It's not "natural","normal" or "kind",
The flesh you so fancifully fry.

The meat in your mouth,
As you savour the flavour of murder."

Posted by Brendan
@DevWil:
Other animals kill each other for food constantly.  It's how the ecosystem works.  Human's overconsumption of animals due to such a large population would be the exact same for plants if we all stopped eating meat and made roomo for the whole world to be covered by farmland. 
Online
Posted by JasonDaPsycho
@DevWil: 
I just skipped to the conclusion. Don't bother reading the whole freaking article. It failed to convince me why vegan diet is better than having meat in your diet.
I'm just saying there is no point in giving up meat in the diet when:
  • vegan diet isn't necessarily healthier.
  • vegan diet doesn't help a cause that much.
 
I'm not hating on those who have a vegan diet. To me it's more of a preference issue. Vegan diet doesn't appeal to me because there is no point in doing so (at least no point that looks good to me).
You have to start taking another approach. You can't change their minds (as well as mine) with this one.
Posted by FiestaUnicorn
@DevWil said:
"i hesitated to bump my own blog, but here's some dumb-ass doctors saying that you can be perfectly healthy without eating meat: 
 
http://www.adajournal.org/article/PIIS0002822303002943/fulltext "

All the vegetarian threads on this site lead to the loud anti vegetarian crowd here yelling that it's a bad idea.  If any of them read your link they simply say that it says meat free diets are bad for you and put up their own, wrong, reports that were probably funded by the American Meat Institute.   
None of the anti vegetarian arguments are even worth arguing against here because none of them hold any merit. 
Posted by DevWil
Edited by DevWil
@muttjones said:

" @DevWil: So you're trying to convert the self admitting hypocrites.  Seriously dude though, what did you expect other than you to be shutdown by almost everyone when you start off your argument with saying that doing what you don't do is a dick move?   Also I feel considering you are not a Vegan that you shouldn't really be taking the complete moral high ground. Regardless of whether they are being killed or not, we are harassing the animals in ways that aren't natural to get what we want from them (meat, eggs etc.)  And it is hard to change from being an omnivore to a vegetarian is tough. Meat gives us plenty of vital nutrients and to get them from vegetables is a lot tougher and requires much more effort (especially to find in America I would think).    To say you still eat pizza means you are other not telling us what else you eat or you are living a very unhealthy lifestyle. "

of course pizza doesn't make up my entire diet.  i don't think i eat it any more than the average person.  i just meant that pizza is a very normal food and vegetarians such as my self eat it too.
 
it's not hard to find things to eat as a vegetarian.  it's easier in some places than others, but even in semi-rural western pennsylvania i am very much content with the food i eat.  i spend most of the year elsewhere where i have an easier time, but i'm not miserable here.  there are two grocery stores in the area (which are just large, run-of-the-mill stores comparable to any other) and i don't have to go anywhere but one of those stores to get food for myself. 
 
yes, it's an inconvenience.  but it's a worthwhile inconvenience if you place moral weight on the idea of eating meat.  you don't have to start shopping exclusively at tiny health food stores or stop going out to eat.  it really isn't that inconvenient.  if you don't believe me, take inventory of the things you eat in a week.  consider how many of those things don't have meat or don't necessarily need meat.  then consider how many of those things can be replaced with easily-acquired meat substitutes (or something different altogether).  veggie burgers and the like aren't gross.  i know meat eaters who find them tasty.
 
if i exercised more, i'd be as healthy as anybody else (barring pro athletes and the like, obviously).  i don't get sick or feel tired any more than anyone i know.
 
you really don't need to eat meat.  seriously.  it's a myth.
 
i don't claim to be automatically more moral than anybody else just because i don't eat meat and i have utmost respect for vegans.  i simply haven't adopted that lifestyle.  i probably should.  it'd take a big commitment to do it, a much bigger one than is required than not eating meat.  i'm not perfect, but i consider the sacrifice necessary to not eat meat to be trivial compared to the moral implications.
 
i thought that calling eating meat "kind of a dick move" would be a more delicate and better-received way of phrasing it than opening my argument by using the words "bad", "unethical", or anything else that isn't as colloquial.  maybe it was a poor choice, but i thought if people could think of it as simply "kind of a dick move" they'd be more inclined to seriously consider it.
Posted by muttjones
@DevWil: So you're trying to convert the self admitting hypocrites. 
 
Seriously dude though, what did you expect other than you to be shutdown by almost everyone when you start off your argument with saying that doing what you don't do is a dick move?  
 
Also I feel considering you are not a Vegan that you shouldn't really be taking the complete moral high ground. Regardless of whether they are being killed or not, we are harassing the animals in ways that aren't natural to get what we want from them (meat, eggs etc.) 
 
And it is hard to change from being an omnivore to a vegetarian is tough. Meat gives us plenty of vital nutrients and to get them from vegetables is a lot tougher and requires much more effort (especially to find in America I would think). To say you still eat pizza means you are other not telling us what else you eat or you are living a very unhealthy lifestyle.