@DevWill: I was saying that after reading your response to me,I changed my mind; this should not be locked and it's not offensive.
@DevWill: I was saying that after reading your response to me,I changed my mind; this should not be locked and it's not offensive.
@Virago: The world needs more vegetarians like Virago and less like the OP. Thanks for NOT being a total douche, Virago. "
" @DevWil: This shit is happening now. We've made extraordinary leaps in Biology very recently, and the medical benefits of such research is too great to be ignored. Synthetic meat is a reality at this point, because when synthetic organs are completed all the necessary work to create synthetic, edible tissue would already have been done. Arthur C. Clarke was a very intelligent man, though ultimately an idealist. The first synthetic cell has been created, and the time is now. What I'm really struggling to understand is how can say your choice to be a Vegetarian is saving anything. By your definition, the only way you could actually live by your beliefs and not be a complete hypocrite would be to eat food grown on small local farms. Now, maybe you do do that but, I'm going to go with the safe bet and assume you don't. By eating any processed food you are actively funding the companies that destroy enormous amounts of land each year, subsequently destroying the habitats of thousands of animals. You aren't killing an animal with your bare hands when you eat meat from the slaughter house, so you and me are on the exact same level when it comes to harming wild life. "
However, we're still animals.
I support the slaughtering of cows by barely paid workers to fill my tummy.
I don't remember anyone saying that eating meat is superior, if anything vegetarians/vegans are the worst because they think that just because they kill things that are green (and occasionally other colors) instead of pumping blood they're superior.
If I were you I wouldn't try preaching to anyone, it's a sure way to get yourself told off big time. The hell should anyone care about the cows or whatnot that were born and raised for the sole purpose of being knocked out, strung upside down and then having their throats cut? Actually I'm going to be studying to be a butcher soon and the teacher told me I could probably breeze through the class, so if anything I'll be making profit by turning gigantic carcasses into not quite bit-sized pieces. It's actually pretty fun too, especially when you start up the dreaded table saw and cut through 10 ribs, almost loosing your fingers can be such a thrill.
woooooah text overload
I must say that after reading your response, you showed enough intelligence regarding the debate to make me think this is not a troublesome thread; at first, I thought you may have been a vegetarian based off the title (sorry, didn't read beginning), but now I see that you are, in fact, trying to gain ground with the ones I thought you may have been working against. I would say that your argument is perfect, but the convoluted structures of some of your sentences weakens the point. Good job on a decent argument, though.
What vegetarianism is asking for is the complete genocide of millions of animals. "
sadly the fact of the matter is that human biology is specifically designed to consume meat AND potatoes.
I had a really long page stretching post to refute all the points you made, but then I had a better idea.
I am going to explain to you the state society is in and why the ethics of animal rights simply isn't a factor anymore.
Man is at an interesting cross road now because, when taken to the extreme, most animals are pretty much just left overs from the evolutionary war. We won the game, and in a century or perhaps even just a few decades the need for both plants and animals will be absolute nil. Wildlife should still be preserved of course, though it would really be only to the benefit of scholars.
Look, I know it's kind of hard to see the point I'm driving at because quite frankly I'm not even sure what I'm talking about now. There have been a shit load of scientific breakthroughs recently regarding synthetic tissue as of late and what the future holds is both very exciting and very unknown.
Let me phrase it in the form of a hypothetical.
Mankind is sitting at a decision and has two options and no way out. To continue the advancement of the human race, all wildlife outside of perserved specimens must be destroyed. No species will become extincted, and every animal is kept within a state of the art storage facility which simulates it's natural environment and populations of each species are regulated and monitored. Each little pocket of life is kept within a perfectly secure building accessible for both scholarly work and is open to the general public. A majority of Earth's animals though.
So what would you chose? The stagnation of human civilization, or the lives of trillions of animals.
That may seem like a radical concept to you, but is it really? Many animals are basically commodities at this point. They aren't much good for anything other than eating. These domesticated weaklings can no longer survive on their own, they are already extinct. Chickens, cows, pigs, and all the other animals we have kept for companionship or food. They are no longer animals, they are goods. As much as most people hate to admit it, those animals are as good as dead.
What do you think would happen to domesticated animals if we decided to stop eating meat? Do you expect us to spend billions of dollars to keep the vast populations of these creatures alive? Are we supposed to just release them back into the wild? Do you expect most, if any, of these creatures to survive in our urbanized world, let alone the wild? What is the better option? Would you like them to all go at once or should we continue actually using them?
Vegatarians like to act like not eating animals is ethically correct, like it is morally right; but do you ever stop to consider the long term implications of your lifestyle?
By being a Vegetarian you seek to ultimately destroy the very animal life you claim you wish to save. It's too late to turn back the clock, the world is what it is and the lives of the animals you want to save were lost a long long time ago. I want to see your perfect world. I want to see the thousands of miles of land covered in the corpses of animals that have died from starvation or been killed by predators. I want to see a world in which the cow doesn't go "moo" because the cow is fucking dead. Oh sure, some of them could be saved in facilities like Zoos, but how is that any better? That's just leading back to my hypothetical question, in fact it is the same exact choice. Choose. The lives of billions animals, or a world of Vegetarians. Go. What needs to be changed is how we treat animals, not how we use them. That is what it comes down to. "
Everything is perception. Everything is an illusion. You are simply in continuous dreams. Every time you die you simply wake to a new life as a new person. Have fun as you know it, cause when you die none of it will truly matter. In the end we all die in out own shit. Therefore I eat tasty food vegetarian or not.
I like steak so rare, it moos at me.
You're not going to change that.
I'm not really wanting to jump into this conversation I just want to correct a misconception I've seen in said this thread a few times now.
I've seen a lot of people on both sides use bears as an example of carnivores but in fact most bears (polar bears are mainly carnivorous but barren tundra will do that) are omnivores eating plants (mainly berries if I remember correctly), bugs, honey, and yes of course meat. Their diet changes depending of course on season and region and during their preparation for hibernation the eat mainly meat because they need to store fat but the point remains that they are not strict carnivores but rather omnivores.
As for my own preference well I like meat and always have but that choice is mine and I can definitely understand where others are coming from with their own dietary habits.
" @DevWil: May I say, your ignorance of basic human biology is pretty astounding. Humans are built to eat meat. That is a fact. If we were meant to not eat meat we wouldn't have a set of canine teeth and our bodies would reject flesh. My logic is completely sound, your thinly vield excuse is akin to the work of a mad evangelist. Oh, and please feel free to insult me all you like when it comes to my refrencing, but I figured you'd be clever enough to find the larger article on your own. First off, plants actively try to survive. They react to their evirnoments and communicate with each other. That's about all a majority of animals do. Intelligence by your description is something that has only been observed in primates and some other mammals. If you want to talk about emotions, then I care even less. Even our emtions are simply chemical reactions brought about by the events we experience. What seperates us from animals is cognition, as I said before, and it is a very rare occurence and definetly does not occur with the common barn yard crew like cows, pigs, and chickens. Also, plants do have a nervous system.They couldn't respond to the environment without one. It is actually far more sensitive than the human nervous system, and while it may not be as complex as our own plants are capable of feeling a sesnation similar to pain. Another point, meat-eaters like myself are hurting animals just as much as you. Even if I stopped today, nothing would change. If 1,000 people stopped today, nothing would change. I can keep eating meat and still fight for humane treatment of animals if I want to, being a vegetarian is just a self-fuffling excuse to make people feel better instead of getting up and doing something. Trying to convince people to be Vegetarian isn't helping any animals. Another thing, you wouldn't even be alive if your ancestors hadn't eaten meat. Vegetarianism is a phenomenon that only occurs within a civilization of at least rudimentary status. Vegitarians cannot even exist without agriculutre and food surpluses, this is a fact. All humans were at one point hunter-gathers and we had to kill animals to survive. That is instinct, that is nature. Let's just face facts, because this is what it comes down to; there is absolutely no scientific or historic basis that justifies Vegetarianism. Vegetarians are people that throw out scientific concepts they only have a loose understanding of because they like to play make believe and pretend that animals can operate on a similar mental and emotional level that we do. That is complete and total horse shit. You said it yourself, it makes you feel better, and tha'ts all it is. Vegetarianism goes against nature, goes against science, and it contributes nothing but bullshit fanatics to soceity. It's a disease that has consumed this new wave of liberal ignorance who use shit like Vegetarianism to take a moral high ground on issues they know nothing about so that they can feel smarter than any one else. I'm a human, and I eat meat. I'm a person, and I care about animal cruelty. I can be both of those things because I have dedicated the time and energy to actually learning about the world I live in instead of grabbing on to the closest feel good wagon. And for the record, I read the fucking thread. "
Where would all those cows live if we didn't eat meat? WHERE?!! They would be everywhere, and they would want revenge. BLOOD THIRSTY COWS MAN! It would be like the fucking zombie apocalypse except with cows! OH MY GOD! I'll be right back I'm going to go buy as much steak as I can.
" @ninjakiller said:Hockey? Why doesn't he just take up ballet and get it over with?i'm sure Georges Laraque would have an interesting reaction if you called him a pussy. considering he made a video for PETA, you could call him preachy, too!
" This thread is shit, vegetarians are preachy pussies, lock it already. "
if this thread is locked, i'll be very disappointed in the GB mods. it's a real, constructive debate that i think i've kept respectful for the most part. if it devolves into "you're a shit person, meat eater" and "you're a pussy faggot, veggieboy", sure, consider locking it down. it's not even in the wrong forum like the thread that someone made in response to this, and that one isn't locked. this one has gone hundreds of comments without a lock or warning, and i hope for the sake of responsible discourse that doesn't change. also, if you really want this thread to die, don't comment on it. except for posting a link to a medical journal explaining how vegetarians can be perfectly healthy, i haven't bumped this blog once. i've simply been reacting to other users' comments. "
" This thread has led to nothing but anger from vegetarians, and this is coming from someone who hates veggies. This has gone on for way too long. This should be locked. "it's led to awareness and constructive debate. more than one person has told me, either in the thread or in a PM, that i have made them consider the issue more deeply.
This thread has led to nothing but anger from vegetarians, and this is coming from someone who hates veggies. This has gone on for way too long. This should be locked.
i'm sure Georges Laraque would have an interesting reaction if you called him a pussy. considering he made a video for PETA, you could call him preachy, too!
" This thread is shit, vegetarians are preachy pussies, lock it already. "
This thread is shit, vegetarians are preachy pussies, lock it already.
Oh beat it to fucking death, stop bumping this hopeless shit
you expect a reply? i expect someone to read a thread before commenting so confidently. you didn't do that. however, being how invested you seem to be, i'll answer you:
Before I start, let me say this. I am going to refute every one of your claims and prove that nearly every form of Vegetarianism is ultimately futile and completely self-fufilling
I expect a reply.
Ok first off, being a vegetarian because "eating animals is wrong" is stupid. That isn't why a lot of vegetarians are vegetartians. They are vegetarians because they don't approve of the inhumane treatment that animals recieve in the slaughter house or before hand. You see, eating meat it nature. That's just how it works. This happens every day:
Now obviously if you are a vegetarian becuase you want to protest the meat packing industry, then I also don't care because you aren't actually doing something to stop it. Eating vegetables does not "Stick it to the Man." You aren't doing anything to help those animals, in fact you are still being as complicit as you were when you ate meat.
Let me restate that.
VEGETARIANISM DOESN'T HELP ANIMALS
Finally, plants are fucking intelligent. This isn't news, it's been known for quite awhile. Just because you can look at the face of an animal and see some similarity to your own being, that doesn't mean it has the same brain processes as you. Most animals aren't even aware of their own existence, it is a rare few that actually have even rudimentary consciousness.
If you want to help animals then put down the damn veggy burger and actually do something. "
maybe if, as a society, we were more opposed to violence towards all animals, we'd be less inclined to hurt other humans.
" People killing animals for food is what it is man. I wish people would stop killing people for no good reason. One of my former class mates just got gunned down outside of his house, no reason.... humans should be smart enough to stop that kind of violence. I dont know what diet is better for people. I dont know the morality of eating meat. For now, the only killing that bothers me is human on human. "
Haha, DevWil! I can't believe this thread is still going on! Keep on standing up for your beliefs, man!
i appreciate what you're saying, but don't misunderstand how ambitious i am. i'm not trying to change the whole world with a giant bomb blog. i just want people who wouldn't dream of killing a mammal themselves to re-consider if eating meat is worth inflicting the violence that they seem to be able to appreciate as undesirable.
" @DevWil: LONG THREAD IS LONG. Seriously, just give up dude. I respect you, in fact I haven't had meat in about 2 weeks (not because of you, I just can't afford it right now, yay college) but man, this isn't the place for intense idiololigical debates like this. No one cares about your choices and you should know that by now. Sorry if it's frusterating but life tends to be that way, your best plan is to just accept and move on. People will always eat meat, they always have. You may not like it, I may not like it. I feel sick as shit when I watch documentaries on the matter, when I see pigs thrown and tossed by their legs into holding areas way past their limit (not that I eat pork anyway, too dirty) but I still accept that others will eat it. Would you go to a 3rd world country and ask the residents of said country to stop eating meat? No because they NEED it. tl;dr I'm sorry you hate so much, but get used to it. Or kill yourself (no don't, that's silly). "
I is a farmer.
We are animals. And we are the most intelligentanimal
therefore we have control of the planet and can do what we like with it.
Animals (less humans) are our bitch.
" People may have legitimate religious or health-related reasons for being vegetarian, but the "ethical" argument doesn't hold water. Why? Because just as many animals are crushed in combines while harvesting grains each year as are killed in slaughterhouses. Maddox breaks it down nicely for you here.
People may have legitimate religious or health-related reasons for being vegetarian, but the "ethical" argument doesn't hold water. Why? Because just as many animals are crushed in combines while harvesting grains each year as are killed in slaughterhouses. Maddox breaks it down nicely for you here.
seriously, plants don't have central nervous systems. i mean it. really.
" Dude, plants do a lot more for us than animals. Why kill them? All living things have to eat other living things to survive. Including plants having to take in decayed material (ie. compost and fertilizer). We get oxygen from plants and they dont take a shit in the backyard. Our increased brain mass and therefore ability to be more awesome than other animals comes form eating meat. "
" @DevWil: Fuck You. Take your hippy vegetarian bullshit elsewhere. People are supposed to eat meat. Its a scientific FACT. Don't push your fucking douchebag eletist ways on people who aren't like you. "see defensive, they know that what they do is wrong, and they really dont like being told so. Yes people are supposed to eat meat, I should also be cheating on my girlfriend multiple times a night and destroying all rivals. Due to our unique position in the animal kingdom, that of always having a surplus of calories we have developed music,politics,art. We awesome monkeys now have a choice. Do we opt in or out of killing? Millions of peopke survive without eating meat, therefore it is not necessary to eat meat.Therefore the killing of animals for meat is wrong.
Dude, plants do a lot more for us than animals. Why kill them? All living things have to eat other living things to survive. Including plants having to take in decayed material (ie. compost and fertilizer). We get oxygen from plants and they dont take a shit in the backyard. Our increased brain mass and therefore ability to be more awesome than other animals comes form eating meat.
" @DevWil: Other animals kill each other for food constantly. It's how the ecosystem works. Human's overconsumption of animals due to such a large population would be the exact same for plants if we all stopped eating meat and made roomo for the whole world to be covered by farmland. "i don't see your point at all. yes, some animals eat other animals. humans don't have to be like that and because we have the option not to eat animals, we should take it (imo). if you really don't think it matters one way or another, i'll probably never change your mind.
I'm always amazed how meat eaters react when the topic gets around to "So Ed, you're a vegatarian".
it's like talking to a cult member, they get very defensive and come out with rubbish like "you're not gonna change me".Instead of actually thinking.
For me the immorality comes from how easy it is not to eat meat. I loved meat..I mean I really LOVED MEAT. But Morrissey with one line not a paticularly deep line changed me.
"This beautiful creature must die"
and also "a death for no reason, and death for no reason is murder"
Eating meat has no reason beyond its tasty. A point I wont deny, but it involves being complicit in causing suffering,pain and death as well as stress and discomfort during transport to innocent beautiful creatures. Doing something as bad as eating meat just because you enjoy it is very immoral to me.
" It's not "natural","normal" or "kind",
The flesh you so fancifully fry.
The meat in your mouth,
As you savour the flavour of murder."
"i hesitated to bump my own blog, but here's some dumb-ass doctors saying that you can be perfectly healthy without eating meat:
i hesitated to bump my own blog, but here's some dumb-ass doctors saying that you can be perfectly healthy without eating meat:
of course pizza doesn't make up my entire diet. i don't think i eat it any more than the average person. i just meant that pizza is a very normal food and vegetarians such as my self eat it too.
" @DevWil: So you're trying to convert the self admitting hypocrites. Seriously dude though, what did you expect other than you to be shutdown by almost everyone when you start off your argument with saying that doing what you don't do is a dick move? Also I feel considering you are not a Vegan that you shouldn't really be taking the complete moral high ground. Regardless of whether they are being killed or not, we are harassing the animals in ways that aren't natural to get what we want from them (meat, eggs etc.) And it is hard to change from being an omnivore to a vegetarian is tough. Meat gives us plenty of vital nutrients and to get them from vegetables is a lot tougher and requires much more effort (especially to find in America I would think). To say you still eat pizza means you are other not telling us what else you eat or you are living a very unhealthy lifestyle. "