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Edited by ninjakiller

Good, when the nuclear apocalypse hits you'll be too weak to fight off the marauding mutant biker gangs and I can make soup out of what's left of your retarded corpse.  All those vegetables should give you great flavor.   
 
 
Edit: Sorry for 2 separate posts, but such a smug dipshit post had my haunches all riled up like a junkyard dog.  

Posted by Ryax
@LaszloKovacs said:
" You lost me at the part where you declare yourself to be morally superior.  Honestly I sort of want to go to Five Guys now just to spite you. "
do it. spite the shit out of him.
Edited by DevWil
@LaszloKovacs said:

" You lost me at the part where you declare yourself to be morally superior.  Honestly I sort of want to go to Five Guys now just to spite you. "

if you want to argue meat-eating as morally superior, go ahead. 
 
thing is, nobody can.  i'll be super impressed if it's possible. 
 
if you think it's morally irrelevant, then this conversation isn't for you and i've already said that i don't have delusions of changing the minds of people like that. 
 
edit: i don't think at any point i said that i was automatically morally superior to all meat-eaters.  i've heard that adolf hitler was a vegetarian. obviously he wouldn't automatically be morally superior to an otherwise moral meat eater.
Posted by W0lfbl1tzers
@sddi: There actually is. The are very few and do it for religious reasons. They are called Jainists. Only the most devote Jainists only eat things that have died of natural causes or fruits and vegetables that have fallen from their respective plants.  They are a very interesting people.
 
 I don't have issues with vegetarians. I just don't like when people say that killing animals is morally wrong when you have plants to account for as "Living Beings".
Posted by Ryax
@DevWil: hold up. you think you're morally superior because you're a vegetarian? 
Posted by sddi
@LaszloKovacs: That's just childish, as you know. Of course he's going to think his view is morally superior. Why would he want to hold a view if he didn't think that? And you must know, ninjakiller, that a vegetarian diet (in general) is a heck of a lot healthier than the meat-based alternative. The OP was never rude, so why are so many of the people that are responding? 
Posted by blackbird415
@DevWil: @DevWil said:

by your logic, we can approximate that killing a 2-year-old human child is no different than accidentally stepping  on an ant to end its life.

"  
well what about reincarnation? I think that equates them. Theres human emotion and hormones to say otherwise because our primal subconcious tells us we need to furhter the human race, but in reality they are both living beings, you kill an ant, bam its soul reincarnates to a 2 year old child. 
 
I do equate other animals with humans, we are not special. Just because we have all these tools and comforts of modern day living thanks to apposable thumbs, vocal chords, and a brain that has some power to it.  
 
I also find it fairly offensive when you stereotype "the west". You say "the west" is disgusted by the idea of eating dog, but will gladly eat a cow. While America im asuming your speaking of and not canada, mexico, or the geographically correct west "europe", what you may find is not only is the reason behind this more so of the red meat industries lobbying and brainwashing of American culture, but that your statement is in reality fairly distant from the truth. Many people eat all kinds of things in America, and to stereotype over 350,000,000 people as these hypocrites is fairly ridiculous. America may be filled with Hippocratic people the hippocracies are of all shapes sizes and colors. 
Posted by Organicalistic_
@Ryax: i do
lol
Posted by Ryax
@organicalistic_ said:
" @Ryax: i do lol "
you do what my child?
Posted by MikkaQ

Well taking meat out of my diet would be VERY difficult. I don't think I go a single meal without some kind of meat, and I don't go a day in my life without eating at least some beef and a couple litres of milk. It's also never failed me. Doctors tell me I'm really quite healthy (to their dismay, actually), and I've never broken anything, and I have a solid build. But most of all, eating meat makes me happy, so I don't see a reason to stop. But I'm also not going to be a hypocrite about it, I've already killed an animal before and cared about it as much as eating a piece of bacon. I just don't care about non-human lives (barring cats).  
 
Yeah, it's a dick move, but other animals do it, and I'm not pretentious enough to see myself as being above that. Those animals just eat and bone, so do I, just being human means I get to do things on TOP of that, not as a replacement. That argument's never stuck with me, the whole "We're too advanced for this shit" argument. 

Posted by MAN_FLANNEL

Eric Cartman should kick your ass. 

Posted by ninjakiller
@sddi: 

Oh bullshit.  The op just came out and said his position was "morally superior" to that of nonvegatarians.  That immediately disqualifies his position.  
Posted by HS21

I like how all the people that aren't vegetarians sound more hateful than the vegetarian just trying to share his point of view.

Posted by DevWil
@W0lfbl1tzers said:
" @sddi: There actually is. The are very few and do it for religious reasons. They are called Jainists. Only the most devote Jainists only eat things that have died of natural causes or fruits and vegetables that have fallen from their respective plants.  They are a very interesting people.  I don't have issues with vegetarians. I just don't like when people say that killing animals is morally wrong when you have plants to account for as "Living Beings". "  
i mentioned people who only eat things that weren't the result of killing.   
 
it has less to do with life and more to do with sentience.
 
@sddi
said:
"And you must know, ninjakiller, that a vegetarian diet (in general) is a heck of a lot healthier than the meat-based alternative. The OP was never rude, so why are so many of the people that are responding?  "
  for real.  red meat is one of the worst things for your body. 
 
@blackbird415
said:
" @DevWil: @DevWil said:

by your logic, we can approximate that killing a 2-year-old human child is no different than accidentally stepping  on an ant to end its life.

"  
well what about reincarnation? I think that equates them. Theres human emotion and hormones to say otherwise because our primal subconcious tells us we need to furhter the human race, but in reality they are both living beings, you kill an ant, bam its soul reincarnates to a 2 year old child.  I do equate other animals with humans, we are not special. Just because we have all these tools and comforts of modern day living thanks to apposable thumbs, vocal chords, and a brain that has some power to it.   I also find it fairly offensive when you stereotype "the west". You say "the west" is disgusted by the idea of eating dog, but will gladly eat a cow. While America im asuming your speaking of and not canada, mexico, or the geographically correct west "europe", what you may find is not only is the reason behind this more so of the red meat industries lobbying and brainwashing of American culture, but that your statement is in reality fairly distant from the truth. Many people eat all kinds of things in America, and to stereotype over 350,000,000 people as these hypocrites is fairly ridiculous. America may be filled with Hippocratic people the hippocracies are of all shapes sizes and colors.  "
most people in the west eat meat without considering the morality of it.  that's something i feel confident saying and i don't think i'm being unfair.
 
and no, i'm not so simple that i meant "the West" as America.  that's why i capitalized 'West' and didn't say 'America'.  i meant the Western World as opposed to the Eastern (Oriental) World.  that isn't to say that everyone in India is a vegan, but it's a very different culture. 
 
i don't think all living beings are equal.  i don't even think all humans are equal.  if you want to label me as elitist, that's okay with me because there are much worse things you could call me. 
 
if you're appealing to Buddhism (which i mentioned) by invoking reincarnation, i'll be quick to point out that the whole point of reincarnating as a different being is that there are greater and lesser beings.  i don't subscribe to that interpretation of rebirth, anyways, so the argument is lost on me.
Posted by sddi
@ninjakiller: I'm sorry, but when did he actually say that? Maybe I missed it. It's just that I don't know how anyone can hold an opinion about anything (not including things like music or movies) without feeling that that opinion is morally superior. I don't recall him explicitly stating that, however. 
Posted by W0lfbl1tzers
@DevWil: The whole point of reincarnation is because you have fucked up as a being or spirit or whatever you want to call it. It is not about lesser or greater. Most Buddhists believe that what you will become in your next life is totally random. They believe that you can only reach Moksha (Freedom of life/death cycle) as a human.
Edited by LaszloKovacs
@DevWil: 
 
You say that the two are "directly comparable and there is really no coherent argument that [you]'ve heard for eating meat being the superior position."
 
You then go on to say that the people you would win over are people who are "compassionate/sympathetic and actually think about the consequences and morality of [their] actions."
 
So, eating meat is indefensible and vegetarianism is the realm of the morally conscious? 

It seems pretty clear what that implies. It might not be intentional, and if it's not then I'm sorry for my dumb post, but I'm not sure how else to read that.
 
P.S. my actual motivation for getting Five Guys would be the deliciousness of Five Guys, not spite.
Posted by DevWil
@W0lfbl1tzers said:
" @DevWil: The whole point of reincarnation is because you have fucked up as a being or spirit or whatever you want to call it. It is not about lesser or greater. Most Buddhists believe that what you will become in your next life is totally random. They believe that you can only reach Moksha (Freedom of life/death cycle) as a human. "
my only reference point for that literal kind of rebirth is tibetan buddhism and, even at that, i have a very limited understanding of it.   my understanding of that kind of rebirth is that you go up and down a cosmological ladder of sorts based on what kind of life you lead.
 
at risk of de-railing the thread: i have my own, personal interpretation of buddhism that i've based on literature i've read. fortunately, buddhism encourages individual interpretation, so it's not as though i'm heretical in my beliefs.
Posted by Spiritof

Trying to talk me into becoming a vegetarian sounds a whole lot like the people who ask me if I've found Jesus.
 
I've never seen a meat eater trying to convert a vegetarian, but then again meat eaters don't have the power of hand wringing guilt at their disposal either. Let me live my life and I'll gladly let you live yours. 100% guilt free, with Jesus, or without Jesus, and with all the sprouts you can eat.

Posted by ninjakiller
@sddi:  
 
the following: 
 
@LaszloKovacs said:
" @DevWil: 
 
You say that the two are "directly comparable and there is really no coherent argument that [you]'ve heard for eating meat being the superior position."
 
You then go on to say that the people you would win over are people who are "compassionate/sympathetic and actually think about the consequences and morality of [their] actions."  So, eating meat is indefensible and vegetarianism is the realm of the morally conscious?  It seems pretty clear what that implies. It might not be intentional, and if it's not then I'm sorry for my dumb post, but I'm not sure how else to read that.  P.S. my actual motivation for getting Five Guys would be the deliciousness of Five Guys, not spite. "
Shit, I just ate a hot dog, (beef, chicken, pork) when I wasn't hungry to spite him.  That's 3 animals (at least) that died for that tasty tasty meat product.  After reading his "well-reasoned" and completely "unpretentious" arguments I'll be sure to include meat in every meal/snack for the next week or so.  
Posted by sddi
@SpiritOf: The things is, people who do eat meat don't usually do it for moral reasons, so they aren't going to mind if people choose not to partake of it. I mean, it's no threat to them if a small percentage of the population think it's wrong. People who don't eat meat, on the other hand, don't because they find it morally objectionable (this is, of course, not always the case). While I'm not going to try to compare animal rights movements to human rights movements in content, I don't think it's crazy to compare them in method. In order for people to take a movement seriously, someone has to bring it to their attention. Again, he's not banging on your door, he's just putting the idea and his arguments out there, so you can come to your own conclusion in the privacy of your home at your computer. 
Posted by ImHungryx10

Nutrients is nutrients wherever you can get it.

Posted by sddi
@LaszloKovacs: Well, if you think there is a moral argument for eating meat, then say it. Or, at least, explain why the two opinions are on the same moral ground. If you think that morality doesn't come into play in the issue, then, as he said, he's not directing his argument at you.  Unfortunately, instead of rationally arguing their side, many have simply stated that they will eat all the more meat. I'm glad that's not the case for you :) 
 
Here's the thing. If you're going to be changing your mind about eating meat because of the OP's post, then yes, you probably are  "compassionate/sympathetic and actually think about the consequences and morality of [your] actions." Because if you decide that eating meat is wrong because it is killing animals, then you are being inherently compassionate/sympathetic. This doesn't mean at all, however, that you can ONLY be compassionate if you are a vegetarian. Of course not.    
Posted by FiestaUnicorn
@evanbrau said:
"Smug, preaching vegetarians are the reason so many people don't like vegetarians. I like to eat meat, you don't like me eating meat but you're not going to change me so why even try?"
Most smug, preaching vegetarians are members of PETA.  Please don't judge all of us vegetarians based on their retarded methods and practices.
@BiffMcBlumpkin said:
"@DevWil said:
"I know this isn't the perfect venue and I'm probably speaking to the wrong audience, but I'd like to do something good.  How good this thing is and if it's even significant at all is a subjective thing, or is it?  That's kind of the subject I want to bring up. 
 
Meat.  The Giant Bomb staff is composed of those who may, from time to time, talk about how they enjoy eating meat.  The Giant Bomb community seems to largely like to eat meat as well. 
 
This isn't a silly rant about how I feel alienated by the Giant Bomb staff or excluded from the Giant Bomb community and how I think that in itself is outrageous.  I laughed at Vinny's joke on an old Bombcast about a 29-year-old lifelong vegetarian who was going to try meat for the first time on his birthday.  One staff member suggested that the person may not be strong enough to lift a fork to their mouth (from not eating meat) and Vinny countered along the lines of, "Well his neck would be so long from reaching leaves..." 
 
That's funny.  At its core, it's offensive (something Ryan himself acknowledged during the discussion), but it's clever and didn't seem to be said in a way that indicated that Vinny really hated vegetarians or anything. 
 
However, let's get to the issue itself: 
 
Isn't eating meat just...kind of a dick move? 
 
Humans are (apparently) supremely intelligent.  We can create awesome works of film, music, video games, etc.  However, we're still animals.  Any biology textbook will tell you that.  Other animals have emotions and can sense pain just like we do.  The double standard of people in the West cringing at the thought of eating a dog and salivating at the idea of eating a cow is ridiculous.  Sure, cows may be way dumber than dogs.  I don't know.  I'm not a zoopsychologist or whatever the correct term is for studying animal intelligence, but why not just leave them be? 
 
We as a species spend enough time ruining each others' lives; why rope more species into it?   
 
My worldview is heavily influenced by Buddhism (and I self-identify as a Buddhist) and it shouldn't come as a surprise given the focus of this post.  While I don't hold a eulogy if I accidentally hit and kill a moth as I'm driving, I don't want to consent to the killing of another living being.  If these creatures didn't want to be alive, they'd stop eating and lie down and die.  They have a will to live and--while people in the West certainly have a history of being fine with imposing their will on others--it's just a dick move to kill them for food. 
 
I started dating a vegetarian in Fall 2007.  I'm still with her.  After about 8-9 months of being with her, I figured "maybe I'll give vegetarianism a go" after no pressuring from her.  Once I ate a hot dog, mini-BBQ-rib-thing, and hamburger in front of her in a single sitting without her suggesting that I was morally inferior.  I never expected vegetarianism to stick (at least, not on the first try), but it did and I've been a vegetarian for two years. 
 
It is so easy to cut meat out of your diet.  I'm not the healthiest person in the world (far from it as I--surprise, surprise--have a very sedentary lifestyle), but I am absolutely no less healthy than I would've been eating meat.  You don't need to take 8 pills a day to replace nutrients found in meat.  Want a view into my super-crazy, hippy-dippy vegetarian diet? 
 
A very ordinary day: 
-Breakfast: Cereal. 
-Lunch: Bagel. 
-Dinner: Pizza. 
 
It really sucks just eating iceberg lettuce and plain celery all day, guys. 
 
Now, obviously this is subjective: but my favorite pizza toppings have never been meat.  Green peppers and mushrooms have been my 1 and 2 even since I would eat a hamburger without any guilt.  YES, YOU CAN EAT NORMAL PEOPLE FOOD WHEN YOU ARE A VEGETARIAN.  Guess what I had this afternoon?  Ice cream.  I'm not an alien.  I'll be the first one to admit that eating out gets a little trickier (Chinese and Indian food become much more commonplace--but who cares, Indian is delicious) and I understand peoples' suspicions about faux-meat products.  Trust me, though.  Fake chicken patties taste a lot like chicken patties.  And nobody had to die!  Not every meat has an acceptable vegetarian substitute, but the options are a lot better than most people assume.  Raw tofu is kind of gross, but so are so many other foods when they're not prepared well.  I decided today that I'm going to start promoting vegetarianism when I'm out with friends and family rather than just be the guy who gets stupid questions like "so you eat Turkey burgers instead?" and "wait, can you eat eggs?! those are baby chickens!!!!" and answers them politely and sheepishly.  And then I wrote this blog.   Eating meat and not eating meat are directly comparable and there is really no coherent argument that I've heard for eating meat being the superior position.      I understand that some people are simply not interested in the welfare of animals or the process behind what they eat and this blog won't change those peoples' minds.  That can be such a deep-rooted value that I have no delusions of getting someone who simply doesn't care to stop eating meat.  However...if you're a little more compassionate/sympathetic and actually think about the consequences and morality of your actions...consider if you want to keep doing the dickish thing and kill animals just so you can have a trivially different diet.* As this blog is pretty stream-of-consciousness-y, I can guarantee I'll wish I wrote things differently later.  I'm definitely not going to shy away from discussion, but if it's nit-picking about the blog rather than arguments for/against a position that fuels the commentary, I'll probably just ignore what you have to say (or try to). * "
Wow, sounds like someone has a carrot stuck in his vagina. "

I think you mean, someone has a delicious carrot stuck in his vagina. 
Edited by DevWil
@LaszloKovacs said:

" @DevWil: 
 
You say that the two are "directly comparable and there is really no coherent argument that [you]'ve heard for eating meat being the superior position."
 
You then go on to say that the people you would win over are people who are "compassionate/sympathetic and actually think about the consequences and morality of [their] actions."  So, eating meat is indefensible and vegetarianism is the realm of the morally conscious?  It seems pretty clear what that implies. It might not be intentional, and if it's not then I'm sorry for my dumb post, but I'm not sure how else to read that.  P.S. my actual motivation for getting Five Guys would be the deliciousness of Five Guys, not spite. "   

i don't know what you're trying to say, really.
 
eating meat and not eating meat are directly comparable.  fact.  it can be expressed logically as M = 1 or M = 0, M being if someone eats meat or not.  if M = 1, the person eats meat.  this should be clear, but i don't know if we're on the same page. 
 
furthermore, eating meat can have one of three relationships (morally) to not eating meat: more moral, less moral, or neither more or less moral. 
 
i can't think of any argument for eating meat being morally superior to not eating meat.  i can not think of one proposed argument for that.  feel free to try it. 
 
logic time: 
 
Premise 1: Meat-eating is either more moral, less moral, or neither more nor less moral than vegetarianism. 
Premise 2: Meat-eating is not more moral than vegetarianism. 
____ 
Conclusion: Meat-eating is either less moral or neither more nor less moral than vegetarianism. 
 
Pick a side.
Posted by JumpKick

I respect the way you choose to live your life. But stating that "red meat is one of the worse things for your body" is utter nonsense. 
 
My great grandmother who ate meat basically everyday died last year at the grand old age of 98. My grandfather is 87 still going strong. My grandmother of 83 is still perfectly fine. They all eat meat on a daily basis. It's not like I sit down and have a plate of meat for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I'm perfectly healthy according to my doctor. A well rounded diet that incorporates meat is perfectly fine for your body. 
 
As far as morality goes. Whether someone eats meat or not isn't even on the list of morals I look for in people.  Far greater problems with people in the world.

Posted by masternater27

We are omnivores.  It is built into us to eat meat as well as plants.  There are no morals about the way our bodies are built to function.  Eating meat in and of itself is not morally wrong.  The way we procure our meat in modern times me be morally wrong, so argue that if you want to convert people, not that process of eating meat.
  
I'd also like to say that comparing the inconvenience of cooking for a vegetarian/becoming a vegetarian to that of a diabetic is totally invalid.  A diabetic could die if they don't eat properly, you will feel guilty.  Those two things are not equal, and I take offense to this argument as somebody who has to prepare meals for a diabetic family member. 
 
I don't remember if the OP brought up this scenario or it was somebody else but in response to the dog/cow argument; the East may salivate at the thought of dog but be mortified at the thought of eating cow (traditionally considered to be sacred by some cultures and religions, notably Hinduism).  It has everything to do with cultural values, and it is in no way more backward of the West than it is of the East.  Neither are wrong, neither are right.  They just value different things.  You think you're making a moral argument about us omnivores, but you're really just letting your cultural bias show through. 
 
Finally, give up now.  People in this board are pointing out that meat-eating people sound more hostile than the OP.  Perhaps that's true.  But the OP is insulting anybody who eats meat.  OP is not offering a discussion about the pros and cons of vegetarianism.  OP is attacking people and trying to "convert" them.  That is not something you can expect people to take lying down.  For every person you may convert to vegetarianism you are turning off 100 people to the idea who, without your preaching, may have come to it on their own.  People will have a knee jerk rejection to vegetarianism because of this kind of nonsense.  You're essentially acting like a more polite missionary coming to save us heathens.  Besides, the people that I've seen really listen to people like you preach about vegetarianism are usually the kind of people that will go along with whatever counterculture thing is in at the moment, you can have them.  Offer dialogue, not attacks and you might get somewhere. 
 
Sorry for the length of this, you should probably not reply if you want a response back from me, I'm too annoyed with all of this and won't check back, but feel free to use what I've said to discuss further.

Posted by LaszloKovacs
@DevWil: 
 
My problem is with the way you're phrased the original post. Full disclosure: I don't think morality even enters into this, and I'm not trying to argue for or against meat-eating. I'm just saying that your post clearly implies that you are morally superior to people who disagree with you. If you don't see it, then I guess you don't see it, but I'm sure I'm not the only one who read it (or will read it) that way.
 
If you want to make a decision like that based on your own morals, then good for you. The problem is when you suggest that morality is a fixed scale and that people with values different from your own are not compassionate, sympathetic or moral, you are going to get angry responses.
Posted by DevWil
@JumpKick said:
" I respect the way you choose to live your life. But stating that "red meat is one of the worse things for your body" is utter nonsense.   My great grandmother who ate meat basically everyday died last year at the grand old age of 98. My grandfather is 87 still going strong. My grandmother of 83 is still perfectly fine. They all eat meat on a daily basis. It's not like I sit down and have a plate of meat for breakfast, lunch and dinner. I'm perfectly healthy according to my doctor. A well rounded diet that incorporates meat is perfectly fine for your body.   As far as morality goes. Whether someone eats meat or not isn't even on the list of morals I look for in people.  Far greater problems with people in the world. "
red meat is bad for you.  it's true.  it's not nonsense.  my uncle ate a lot of red meat and died of colon cancer (a disease associated with red meat) before he was 60.  there are people that smoke into their 70s and 80s.  doesn't mean it's not bad for you.
 
if you want to tell me that eating meat is morally irrelevant, fine.  i disagree.  i think that how easy it is to cut meat out of your diet compared to how much better the world is makes it an easy decision to stop.  maybe if humans weren't so okay with killing and eating other animals, a lot of other problems would go away.  maybe not, but we certainly haven't given it a shot.
Posted by DoctorPineapple

I've always felt that we humans have canine teeth for a reason. Let's face it we humans are all omnivores by design, and meat is a fantastic source of protein. Also eating meat is bad for you, just as eating vegetables or jogging everyday is. Everything has its pluses and minuses.

Posted by InTheEnd

So you call yourself a Buddhist eh? And am go out on a limb here and assume you're an American. If that's the case then you've really fucked up in your past life because being reincarnated into an American could possibly be the worst punishment for a Buddhist. 

Edited by DevWil

i don't want to act like i'm ignoring it or didn't read it, so i'll just say that i really didn't like masternater's implications or tone.  or the fact that he came in to tell me to give up and isn't going to come back to the thread.  i think he was terribly rude and i don't think i'm crazy for saying so.  so yes, masternater, i just attacked someone. you for being rude, but nobody before that, i don't think.
 
regardless, how many times do i have to say it: 
 
if you think that eating meat is morally irrelevant, THIS CONVERSATION IS NOT FOR YOU.   nobody has been able to counter the argument that eating meat is morally indefensible.  that's the whole point.  i made some arguments for why killing animals is morally relevant, but i totally understand that it is next-to-impossible to change someone's values like that.

Edited by blackbird415

 
@DevWil said: 

 

most people in the west eat meat without considering the morality of it.  that's something i feel confident saying and i don't think i'm being unfair. and no, i'm not so simple that i meant "the West" as America.  that's why i capitalized 'West' and didn't say 'America'.  i meant the Western World as opposed to the Eastern (Oriental) World.  that isn't to say that everyone in India is a vegan, but it's a very different culture.  i don't think all living beings are equal.  i don't even think all humans are equal.  if you want to label me as elitist, that's okay with me because there are much worse things you could call me.  if you're appealing to Buddhism (which i mentioned) by invoking reincarnation, i'll be quick to point out that the whole point of reincarnating as a different being is that there are greater and lesser beings.  i don't subscribe to that interpretation of rebirth, anyways, so the argument is lost on me. "  

 
Did I say your were an elitest? no. 
  
I am not appealing to budihism, im appealing to the concept itself. 
 
To say its safe to say that the western world kills animals with no qualms at all I feel is quite unfair. Thats stereotyping almost as much as saying all black peoples' favorite food is  fried chicken and watermelon. Its really ridiculous stereotyping even more people that way. Different cultures and geographical locations eat very different things because of the area they live in and whats naturally available to them. Just because the western worlds food may look different and may seem to have a tendency to have meat in them, doesn't make it fact.  
 
Have you been to every single country your stereotyping? have you seen every type of food from each individual country? Have you met a wide variety of people in towns and cities that will show you what is a staple of food in that society?  
 
Until you have, you really have no real precedence to say one way or the other. I cant say I have been to every single country in the western world, but I have met enough people in my own country as well as others to at least say there is some discrepancy in your statement from what Ive seen throughout my home country of America.  
 
To judge other cultures and who they are is quite insulting as well. You do know who they are, why people eat what they eat, why people do what they do. Cultures and customs are very different throughout the world and to judge "the western world" as morally lesser than you because we apparently eat alot of meat is a pretty bold statement and a pretty outrageous one too. 
Posted by Spiritof

If everyone magically took the moral high road what do you propose be done with the existing poultry, beef, pork and fish? Set them all free? Let them roam the land in freedom? What happens when massive amounts of cows are slaughtered on our highways? Fish are ground up in boat propellers? Or massive amounts of pigs and birds go unchecked and start spreading disease? Is it more moral to let a cow get splattered by a car (possible injuring the driver) or is it less moral to control the animal population by raising, hunting, and harvesting them, creating sustenance for all mankind? Maybe we could start pig shelters where unwanted pigs can be humanely put to sleep?
 
Never mind the cattle, chicken and pig farmers that just lost their livelihood. A fishing industry and hobby completely shut down. All in the name of a higher "morality"? You can keep the morality, I'll take the reality.

Posted by Cube

Morals don't exist.

Edited by DevWil
@blackbird415 said:

"  
@DevWil said: 

 

most people in the west eat meat without considering the morality of it.  that's something i feel confident saying and i don't think i'm being unfair. and no, i'm not so simple that i meant "the West" as America.  that's why i capitalized 'West' and didn't say 'America'.  i meant the Western World as opposed to the Eastern (Oriental) World.  that isn't to say that everyone in India is a vegan, but it's a very different culture.  i don't think all living beings are equal.  i don't even think all humans are equal.  if you want to label me as elitist, that's okay with me because there are much worse things you could call me.  if you're appealing to Buddhism (which i mentioned) by invoking reincarnation, i'll be quick to point out that the whole point of reincarnating as a different being is that there are greater and lesser beings.  i don't subscribe to that interpretation of rebirth, anyways, so the argument is lost on me. "  

 Did I say your were an elitest? no.   I am not appealing to budihism, im appealing to the concept itself.  To say its safe to say that the western world kills animals with no qualms at all I feel is quite unfair. Thats stereotyping almost as much as saying all black peoples' favorite food is  fried chicken and watermelon. Its really ridiculous stereotyping even more people that way. Different cultures and geographical locations eat very different things because of the area they live in and whats naturally available to them. Just because the western worlds food may look different and may seem to have a tendency to have meat in them, doesn't make it fact.   Have you been to every single country your stereotyping? have you seen every type of food from each individual country? Have you met a wide variety of people in towns and cities that will show you what is a staple of food in that society?   Until you have, you really have no real precedence to say one way or the other. I cant say I have been to every single country in the western world, but I have met enough people in my own country as well as others to at least say there is some discrepancy in your statement from what Ive seen throughout my home country of America.   To judge other cultures and who they are is quite insulting as well. You do know who they are, why people eat what they eat, why people do what they do. Cultures and customs are very different throughout the world and to judge "the western world" as morally lesser than you because we apparently eat alot of meat is a pretty bold statement and a pretty outrageous one too.  "  
@SpiritOf said:

" If everyone magically took the moral high road what do you propose be done with the existing poultry, beef, pork and fish? Set them all free? Let them roam the land in freedom? What happens when massive amounts of cows are slaughtered on our highways? Fish are ground up in boat propellers? Or massive amounts of pigs and birds go unchecked and start spreading disease? Is it more moral to let a cow get splattered by a car (possible injuring the driver) or is it less moral to control the animal population by raising, hunting, and harvesting them, creating sustenance for all mankind? Maybe we could start pig shelters where unwanted pigs can be humanely put to sleep? Never mind the cattle, chicken and pig farmers that just lost their livelihood. A fishing industry and hobby completely shut down. All in the name of a higher "morality"? You can keep the morality, I'll take the reality. "  

 
You two win.  I didn't realize I was so ridiculous. 
 
Edit: you know what, no.  i've been more than polite for more than 4 pages and i'm just going to say it: you two are idiots and don't understand what you're saying or what i'm saying.  my patience is shot and i wish i'd never made this fucking blog post because of ignorant fuckers like you. 
 
i can't make a fucking statement about a culture without meeting fucking everybody...ridiculous.  CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER OH MY GOD IT WOULD BE CHAOS IF PEOPLE DIDN'T EAT MEAT.  MY GOD THE SLAUGHTERHOUSES WILL BE SHUT DOWN AND THOSE PEOPLE WON'T BE ABLE TO CUT ANIMALS APART WHILE THEY STILL BREATHE ANYMORE.  OH THE HUMANITY. 
 
don't expect me to feel bad for slaughterhouse workers and i won't expect you to feel bad for people you find morally reprehensible, k? k. 
Posted by Organicalistic_
@DevWil: i get what you are saying u win, lol
and i kinda do care if you eat meat, if you eat it get ti organic
Posted by sddi
@SpiritOf: Well, that is a hypothetical situation that isn't going to happen. The number of vegetarians is increasing, but very, very gradually. The economy and our culture can change with people's changing beliefs. If fewer and fewer people eat meat, fewer and fewer cows will be raised to be slaughtered. I doubt the former will happen too fast for the latter to react.  
 
The land used to graze cattle would provide much more food if used to grow crops. I know I'll get some flak for this, but many southern slave owners used the same argument. If all slaves were freed, the southern economy would take a nosedive. I'm not saying enslaving humans is the same thing, I'm just saying that I don't think you can necessarily use the livelihood of farmers as an excuse to do something morally objectionable. Y'know, does the end really justify the means? 
Edited by Supermarius
@DevWil:  i dont think it can be argued that killing animals for food is immoral. Are animals immoral when they kill prey to survive? What about animals such as cats that are carnivores and not omnivores. A carnivores literally cannot live on a plant based diet. They will die, as they often need essential amino acids that are only found in other animal species and not in plants. Cats  are a good example of this. There are several important amino acids that have to get from animal products because of how they have evolved. Are cats immoral? What kind of universe that had any sort of divine order would contrive a system that forced creature to be immoral to survive?

                                                                                                                                                                                EVIL!
 
Posted by blackbird415
 
@DevWil said:

"maybe if humans weren't so okay with killing and eating other animals, a lot of other problems would go away.  maybe not, but we certainly haven't given it a shot. "

While I do agree that the standard red meat is bad for you (buffalo is the objection to that) and while alot of meat has their own health issues depending on many factors (fish can give you mercury poisoning if you eat too much because of the human pollution in the water which Japan has huge health issues that relate to fish consumption)  
 
To say maybe if everyone were vegetarian alot more problems would go away ( presumably health problems, possibly psychological as well) might have some validity, but not enough for any scientist to give any credit to. Whatever pollution the animals intake the vegetables would as well. We find ourselves today with chemicals that are raising our chance of cancer and basically death are spread out throughout the world. Just because we might get rid of one source point of potential health risk doesn't mean we'll be safer.  
Wow I rambled there. 
 
 
@DevWil said:

  i think that how easy it is to cut meat out of your diet compared to how much better the world is makes it an easy decision to stop.  "  
 
I dont get this statement. Could you rephrase it in a possibly more understandable form?
Posted by Ryax
@organicalistic_: dont reply. just sit and watch the angry vegetarian.
Posted by DevWil
@Supermarius said:
" @DevWil:  i dont think it can be argued that killing animals for food is immoral. Are animals immoral when they kill prey to survive? What about animals such as cats that are carnivores and not omnivores. A carnivores literally cannot live on a plant based diet. They will die, as they often need essential amino acids that are only found in other animal species and not in plants. Cats  are a good example of this. There are several important amino acids that have to get from animal products because of how they have evolved. Are cats immoral? What kind of universe that had any sort of divine order would contrive a system that forced creature to be immoral to survive? "  
NOBODY HOLDS ANIMALS MORALLY RESPONSIBLE. 
 
@blackbird415
said:
"  
  
@DevWil said:

  i think that how easy it is to cut meat out of your diet compared to how much better the world is makes it an easy decision to stop.  "  
 I dont get this statement. Could you rephrase it in a possibly more understandable form? "
it's easy to cut meat from your diet.  it is only positive.  why not do it?
Posted by empfeix
@DevWil said:

 You two win.  I didn't realize I was so ridiculous.  Edit: you know what, no.  i've been more than polite for more than 4 pages and i'm just going to say it: you two are idiots and don't understand what you're saying or what i'm saying.  my patience is shot and i wish i'd never made this fucking blog post because of ignorant fuckers like you.  i can't make a fucking statement about a culture without meeting fucking everybody...ridiculous.  CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER OH MY GOD IT WOULD BE CHAOS IF PEOPLE DIDN'T EAT MEAT.  MY GOD THE SLAUGHTERHOUSES WILL BE SHUT DOWN AND THOSE PEOPLE WON'T BE ABLE TO CUT ANIMALS APART WHILE THEY STILL BREATHE ANYMORE.  OH THE HUMANITY.  don't expect me to feel bad for slaughterhouse workers and i won't expect you to feel bad for people you find morally reprehensible, k? k. "  
 
I thought the economic argument was a pretty good one.  I am sure you are aware there are many more jobs associated with meat other than slaughterhouses.  I am merely stating this as an observation not a justification.  
Posted by JumpKick
@DevWil: 
 
No one in my meat eating family have died from colon cancer. So the relation between the two isn't complete. Yes you may get colon cancer from eating red meat., doesn't mean you will. My aunt died from lung cancer in 2002, never smoked in her life. Lived in a rural area training race horses.  If I only ate carrots everyday I'd get sick.  Just like if someone who only ate meat everyday would too. That's why I said a well rounded diet is perfectly fine.
 
I read that Adolf Hitler was a supposed vegetarian. High morals there.  It's your personal decision to not eat meat, because you feel a better person for it. Good for you, your free to do so. If I stopped eating meat tomorrow would I feel morally better. No not at all. I know where my meat comes from.
Posted by Organicalistic_
@Supermarius: Animals kill do survive the human body does not need meat, animals eat animals because they are really different than us, u people are all upset cuz we are criticizing your foods.
Posted by brodywb
@DevWil: I've read through this whole thread, and I'm still not sure how being a vegetarian makes the world better. Could you elaborate a little?
Posted by Supermarius
@DevWil:  but you believe in a cosmic order. Why would humans be exempt from that order. Humans just happened to have evolved from omnivorous apes. What if the dominant sentient species had evolved from carnivorous ancestors, such as cats or wolves? Then we wouldn't have a choice. If you were a cat-person would you choose to waste away from a nutritional deficiency rather than eat a living thing?
Posted by sddi
@Supermarius: While cats are fairly intelligent, have the ability to feel love, pain, and fear, they do not have as powerful a moral compass as humans have. It's in their nature, and we can't change that. Humans, on the other hand, can choose not to eat meat. Even if our ancestors were omnivores, technology and our own bodies and minds have given us the ability to have a completely meat-free diet. Just because cats necessarily eat meat doesn't mean we have to. We also don't run around naked and give ourselves baths by licking ourselves. There is nothing natural about raising millions of animals each year for the sole purpose of consuming them. There is nothing natural about slaughterhouses. Do you deny that animals feel pain and fear? Why is it okay to subject them to that when we, unlike cats, do not have to?
Posted by DevWil
@JumpKick said:
" @DevWil:   No one in my meat eating family have died from colon cancer. So the relation between the two isn't complete. Yes you may get colon cancer from eating red meat., doesn't mean you will. My aunt died from lung cancer in 2002, never smoked in her life. Lived in a rural area training race horses.  If I only ate carrots everyday I'd get sick.  Just like if someone who only ate meat everyday would too. That's why I said a well rounded diet is perfectly fine.  I read that Adolf Hitler was a supposed vegetarian. High morals there.  It's your personal decision to not eat meat, because you feel a better person for it. Good for you, your free to do so. If I stopped eating meat tomorrow would I feel morally better. No not at all. I know where my meat comes from. "
you're missing the point and i'm not going to frustrate myself.  i don't think i need to say any more to address what you're saying and i think you need to go back and make sure you understood what i've already said.
Posted by empfeix
@DevWil said:
" @Supermarius said:
" @DevWil:  i dont think it can be argued that killing animals for food is immoral. Are animals immoral when they kill prey to survive? What about animals such as cats that are carnivores and not omnivores. A carnivores literally cannot live on a plant based diet. They will die, as they often need essential amino acids that are only found in other animal species and not in plants. Cats  are a good example of this. There are several important amino acids that have to get from animal products because of how they have evolved. Are cats immoral? What kind of universe that had any sort of divine order would contrive a system that forced creature to be immoral to survive? "  
NOBODY HOLDS ANIMALS MORALLY RESPONSIBLE.   
 
woa wait a second what if meat eaters dont find it immoral to kill animals for consumption?