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Posted by blackbird415
@DevWil: @DevWil said:

 You two win.  I didn't realize I was so ridiculous.  Edit: you know what, no.  i've been more than polite for more than 4 pages and i'm just going to say it: you two are idiots and don't understand what you're saying or what i'm saying.  my patience is shot and i wish i'd never made this fucking blog post because of ignorant fuckers like you.  i can't make a fucking statement about a culture without meeting fucking everybody...ridiculous.  CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER OH MY GOD IT WOULD BE CHAOS IF PEOPLE DIDN'T EAT MEAT.  MY GOD THE SLAUGHTERHOUSES WILL BE SHUT DOWN AND THOSE PEOPLE WON'T BE ABLE TO CUT ANIMALS APART WHILE THEY STILL BREATHE ANYMORE.  OH THE HUMANITY.  don't expect me to feel bad for slaughterhouse workers and i won't expect you to feel bad for people you find morally reprehensible, k? k.  "
 
 
I love how you call us ignorant when you make blanket statements about whole cultures and societies as well as semi preaching values of vegetarianism only to your suprise have the interenet confront you... ITS THE GOD DAMN INTERNET!!!  
 
I never said you couldn't make such a statement, I said you couldn't make the statement with validity. As well you have to expect people to not take a liking to your statements when you look down at millions of people. 
 
I never said being a vegetarian was bad either, my girlfriend is vegetarian as well I do go for extended periods of time without eating meat. Do I care if slaughterhouses were shut down? no. Would I like to see much better regulation at least on the meat industry? YES! 
 
But im not gonna look down on people who think otherwise. I may bicker and argue and debate, but do I think less of them? no. Do I think less of you for making the statements you make? no.  
 
Im simply challenging what you believe to be morally right and just as well as challenging your views on the people of the world. Without people like me and other people that bicker at you, you wouldnt think more of it therefore not engaging your brain into the subject matter only seeing one side of the picture leaving you as ignorant as you claim I am.
Posted by tooPrime

Killing animals for food is wrong because it increases suffering and loss of life.  But what is the point of suffering and pain?  To alert one to danger and to ensure survival of the individual and in turn the species.  The animals that are commonly consumed by humans (cow, chickens, pigs) have hit the evolutionary jackpot.  As long as humans are the dominate species, cows will always survive because we always need to eat them, hence pain is an evolutionary vestige that no longer matters.  If we stopped eating cows, they'd go extinct in a week, because they've become retarded through domestication and no one will want to take care of them.  In short: Eat meat.  Do it for the cows.

Posted by DevWil
@Ryax said:
" @organicalistic_: dont reply. just sit and watch the angry vegetarian. "
i'm so glad this guy is allowed to post.  he adds so much to the discussion!@brodywb said:
" @DevWil: I've read through this whole thread, and I'm still not sure how being a vegetarian makes the world better. Could you elaborate a little? "  
i really don't see what people aren't understanding.  unless there's an argument i haven't heard, eating meat is either less moral than vegetarianism OR it is morally irrelevant.  if you believe the latter, this discussion is a waste of time to you, given your current values. 
 
@Supermarius
said:
" @DevWil:  but you believe in a cosmic order. Why would humans be exempt from that order. Humans just happened to have evolved from omnivorous apes. What if the dominant sentient species had evolved from carnivorous ancestors, such as cats or wolves? Then we wouldn't have a choice. If you were a cat-person would you choose to waste away from a nutritional deficiency rather than eat a living thing? "
we don't need to eat meat.  eating meat is either morally indefensible or morally irrelevant. it depends on your values.  i believe the former but i understand that arguing that specific point is probably just going to be unproductive.
 
i'm sick of saying the same thing over and over.
Posted by Supermarius

i think we should treat animals with more dignity but i believe that for mammals, eating meat is an acceptable part of the natural order. We should treat animals kindly whenever possible and free range meat is much preferable to meat from animals who had to spend all their time in cages. If you can afford that sort of food and can find a place where its available im all for it. I think it is wrong to eat animals that are significantly self aware so maybe we should all eat more fish. I dont think fish or other seafood can feel any significant emotions. Chickens can live though with pretty much just their brain stem. I think its pretty questionable as to whether a chicken experiences more than the most basic rudiments of emotion. Really more just stimulus response. Pigs though, i have to say they are a little too smart. Watch a video of a baby piglet. Pretty smart. I do feel kind of bad eating them.

Posted by DevWil
@blackbird415 said:
" @DevWil: @DevWil said:

 You two win.  I didn't realize I was so ridiculous.  Edit: you know what, no.  i've been more than polite for more than 4 pages and i'm just going to say it: you two are idiots and don't understand what you're saying or what i'm saying.  my patience is shot and i wish i'd never made this fucking blog post because of ignorant fuckers like you.  i can't make a fucking statement about a culture without meeting fucking everybody...ridiculous.  CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER OH MY GOD IT WOULD BE CHAOS IF PEOPLE DIDN'T EAT MEAT.  MY GOD THE SLAUGHTERHOUSES WILL BE SHUT DOWN AND THOSE PEOPLE WON'T BE ABLE TO CUT ANIMALS APART WHILE THEY STILL BREATHE ANYMORE.  OH THE HUMANITY.  don't expect me to feel bad for slaughterhouse workers and i won't expect you to feel bad for people you find morally reprehensible, k? k.  "
  I love how you call us ignorant when you make blanket statements about whole cultures and societies as well as semi preaching values of vegetarianism only to your suprise have the interenet confront you... ITS THE GOD DAMN INTERNET!!!   I never said you couldn't make such a statement, I said you couldn't make the statement with validity. As well you have to expect people to not take a liking to your statements when you look down at millions of people.  I never said being a vegetarian was bad either, my girlfriend is vegetarian as well I do go for extended periods of time without eating meat. Do I care if slaughterhouses were shut down? no. Would I like to see much better regulation at least on the meat industry? YES!  But im not gonna look down on people who think otherwise. I may bicker and argue and debate, but do I think less of them? no. Do I think less of you for making the statements you make? no.   Im simply challenging what you believe to be morally right and just as well as challenging your views on the people of the world. Without people like me and other people that bicker at you, you wouldnt think more of it therefore not engaging your brain into the subject matter only seeing one side of the picture leaving you as ignorant as you claim I am. "
Just stop.  Please.  You're frustrating as hell and you are not adding anything. 
 
You're putting words in my mouth left and right, telling me that I can't make accurate generalizations (that can be backed up by statistical reports, but don't need to be because they're blindingly obvious), and generally just trolling.  Hard. 
Edited by Supermarius
@DevWil:  So would eating meat be morally indefensible for a sentient species that was carnivorous? Honestly i think its an interesting hypothetical question. And i think you are making some interesting points. Not everyone is calling you a hypocrite or dumb. You just have to expect those responses on an internet forum.
Edited by Spiritof
@DevWil said:

 You two win.  I didn't realize I was so ridiculous.  Edit: you know what, no.  i've been more than polite for more than 4 pages and i'm just going to say it: you two are idiots and don't understand what you're saying or what i'm saying.  my patience is shot and i wish i'd never made this fucking blog post because of ignorant fuckers like you.  i can't make a fucking statement about a culture without meeting fucking everybody...ridiculous.  CATS AND DOGS LIVING TOGETHER OH MY GOD IT WOULD BE CHAOS IF PEOPLE DIDN'T EAT MEAT.  MY GOD THE SLAUGHTERHOUSES WILL BE SHUT DOWN AND THOSE PEOPLE WON'T BE ABLE TO CUT ANIMALS APART WHILE THEY STILL BREATHE ANYMORE.  OH THE HUMANITY.  don't expect me to feel bad for slaughterhouse workers and i won't expect you to feel bad for people you find morally reprehensible, k? k.  "

For the record I don't think you're ridiculous (even with the sarcasm). If you (or anyone) want to be vegetarian I wholeheartedly support you and wish you zero grief. The same way I would pat you on the back if you wanted to be celibate, a missionary, or an astronaut. I'm a big fan of free choice, not so much a fan of someone trying to justify an opinion in order to softly take away MY choice.
Posted by Cube

Telling people to stop posting kind of defeats the purpose of an open forum. 

Edited by DevWil
@Supermarius said:

" @DevWil:  So would eating meat be morally indefensible for a sentient species that was carnivorous? Honestly i think its an interesting hypothetical question. "  

such an enormous part of my argument is that humans can go without meat VERY easily, so it changes everything. 
 
@SpiritOf
said:

 not so much a fan of someone trying to justify an opinion in order to softly take away that choice. "

what does that even mean?  i'm not saying meat should be illegal.  i'm encouraging people to consider how easy it is to become a vegetarian and how it's morally indefensible not to become one. 
 
and i will say it ONE MORE TIME: I HAVE NEVER HEARD AN ARGUMENT FOR EATING MEAT BEING MORE MORAL THAN VEGETARIANISM.  so either it's LESS MORAL or MORALLY IRRELEVANT.  if you believe the latter, that is something based on values you have and that is something entirely different to behold.
Posted by Organicalistic_
@DevWil: U know what is even worse than meat... cloned meat, america is the only "westernized" that does it, hell our fast food companies do, another problem is that we all eat too much. we eat two two three servings instead of 1.
Posted by Supermarius

Here's a brain twister, would it be morally indefensible to eat a artificially sentient robot made of vegetables? I dont think the problem here is eating animal tissue, its eating things that are aware. Very few animals pass the mirror test. If an animal doesn't even know its alive, can it really suffer like a human or other self aware being suffers? Unfortunately, pigs DO pass the mirror test. :(

Posted by Ryax
@DevWil: oh my god dude, stop your stupid bitching. talking about how vegetarianism is awesome on the internet is instant flame bait. you cant change how to world works on a video game forum. 
Posted by blackbird415
@DevWil:   
How am I  trolling? Please explain?  
 
How am I putting words in your mouth?  could you give example of how im putting words in your mouth?  
 
From what can see I haven't accused you stating anything you havent said. 
 Ive related statements you've made to other points.  
 
You say you can back up your statements that the western world eats the vast majority of meat product produced in the world. 
Can you give me statistical reports?  
Do you have any or are you just assuming there are and that they support your statements?  
If there are any can you display where they are?  
I would be interested in reading those studies. 
 
I love how you assume its "blindingly obvious". Let me make a ridiculous parallel to that. To neo nazis its blindingly obvious the holocaust was simply a conspiracy to make hitler and the national socialist party look bad and didn't really happen. 
 
It seems to me your making assumptions about the western world you perceive as facts, i'm asking now where your facts are in order back up your perceptions. 
Posted by TheHT

Nope, not douchy. Being wasteful with something that you had to kill another living being to get is douchy though.

Posted by Organicalistic_
@DevWil: duder go vegan, it is even better
Posted by DevWil
@Supermarius said:
" Here's a brain twister, would it be morally indefensible to eat a artificially sentient robot made of vegetables? I dont think the problem here is eating animal tissue, its eating things that are aware. Very few animals pass the mirror test. If an animal doesn't even know its alive, can it really suffer like a human or other self aware being suffers? Unfortunately, pigs DO pass the mirror test. :( "  
sentience and self-awareness are different.  honestly, i'd rather get a handle on the real-world situation than deal with all of these science fiction hypotheticals.  no offense meant, i just don't think it's relevant or productive. 
 
@Ryax
said:
" @DevWil: oh my god dude, stop your stupid bitching. talking about how vegetarianism is awesome on the internet is instant flame bait. you cant change how to world works on a video game forum.  "
being an asshole on the internet for the sake of being an asshole on the internet is old, tired, and terrible.
Posted by sddi

Here goes some arguments for not eating meat that only concern people, since many posters seem to have little regard for the lives of cows and chickens. 
 -Switching grazing fields to crop fields would provide more food for the same amount of space. This is a fact, not an opinion. World hunger would decrease. Sounds pretty good, right? 
-With fewer cows being raised for consumption, much less ammonia, methane, and carbon dioxide will be emitted. Also a huge plus. 
-Most of the food scares (admittedly, not all) concern meat. Mad cow disease, H1N1, and Avian Influenza to name a few.  
While people who eat meat may indeed live to be 100, the average vegetarian will be healthier than the average omnivore. Add that to helping end global warming, starvation, and disease and it sounds pretty good, doesn't it? 

Posted by Meowayne

Oh look


 its this thread. Why don't you go open a thread about US politics and one about religion while you're at it?
Posted by Spiritof
@DevWil said:  
@SpiritOf said:

 not so much a fan of someone trying to justify an opinion in order to softly take away that choice. "

what does that even mean?  i'm not saying meat should be illegal.  i'm encouraging people to consider how easy it is to become a vegetarian and how it's morally indefensible not to become one.
What I'm saying is that you have every right to ask me to consider becoming a vegetarian as I have the right to tell you that my answer is, "No."
 
I could argue until I'm blue in the face that I think abortion is morally indefensible, but at the end of the day I have to concede that the option is still out there. Asking them to consider morality won't stop it from happening, so I'd rather it have some kind of professional monitoring, and honor the decision of the patient. As long as they can live with their decision, I'm the last guy on the face of the Earth to tell them how they should live.
Posted by Spiritof
@Supermarius said:
" Here's a brain twister, would it be morally indefensible to eat a artificially sentient robot made of vegetables? I dont think the problem here is eating animal tissue, its eating things that are aware. Very few animals pass the mirror test. If an animal doesn't even know its alive, can it really suffer like a human or other self aware being suffers? Unfortunately, pigs DO pass the mirror test. :( "
You gotta admit though, pretty damn funny.
 
(I think I'd eat the vegetable robot if there was a nice side of ranch dressing)
Posted by blackbird415
@sddi: actually there is enough food to feed the world already. Its just that people arent willing to safely distribute it to areas of the world that arent commercially viable (i.e. villages in Africa) healthy food supply isnt the real problem as many see it. Its distribution, and in some cases thats not even a real problem. 
 
Posted by DevWil
i'm not going to waste my time dealing with all of what you're saying, blackbird.  you simply aren't understanding--like i said--what both you and i have been saying.  you are not reading or remembering well. 
 
@blackbird415
said:
" @DevWil:   How am I  trolling? Please explain?   How am I putting words in your mouth?  could you give example of how im putting words in your mouth?   From what can see I haven't accused you stating anything you havent said.  Ive related statements you've made to other points.   You say you can back up your statements that the western world eats the vast majority of meat product produced in the world. Can you give me statistical reports?  Do you have any or are you just assuming there are and that they support your statements?  If there are any can you display where they are?  I would be interested in reading those studies.  I love how you assume its "blindingly obvious". Let me make a ridiculous parallel to that. To neo nazis its blindingly obvious the holocaust was simply a conspiracy to make hitler and the national socialist party look bad and didn't really happen.  It seems to me your making assumptions about the western world you perceive as facts, i'm asking now where your facts are in order back up your perceptions.  "  
 
i didn't say that "the western world eats the vast majority of meat product produced in the world".  that's putting words in my mouth.
 
the majority of people in the western world--and, FINE, the world over so we can get past your stupid hangup--are not vegetarians.  i do not need to prove that.  that is not controversial. 
 
i can't believe i'm not just ignoring you.
Posted by mshaw006
@DevWil: After reading this entire thread, I believe DevWil has not been condescending, has been entirely reasonable in his politeness and subsequent frustration, and has, thus far, not met with a successful counter to his argument. Props to you, man, for putting up with all the crazies who turn vicious at the word vegetarian and then accuse you of being a jerk.
Edited by DevWil
@Meowayne said:

"

Oh look

 its this thread. Why don't you go open a thread about US politics and one about religion while you're at it? "
yeah, vegetarianism is such a common discussion topic on GB, i'm sure. 
 
come on.  enough with the pointless flaming. 
 
@mshaw006 said: 

@DevWil: After reading this entire thread, I believe DevWil has not been condescending, has been entirely reasonable in his politeness and subsequent frustration, and has, thus far, not met with a successful counter to his argument. Props to you, man, for putting up with all the crazies who turn vicious at the word vegetarian and then accuse you of being a jerk. "


   thanks.  i needed that.
Posted by Supermarius
@DevWil:  Did you read my whole post? The important part wasn't science fiction. Whether an animal is self aware or not seems like the important bit. Can a fish suffer to any meaningful capacity? Can a chicken? If it lacks the cognitive ability to experience fear, because it cannot conceive of its own mortality or of a "self", can it suffer in the traditional sense of the word. The moral problem with eating meat has to be causing suffering, because if it is simply the extinguishment of life, then eating plants would be wrong too, as they are most certainly alive. 
 
What if farmers bred or genetically engineered an animal that had a severely stunted stunted brain, lets say just a brain stem. It can't really do anything on its own. It has to be fed by tubes, but thats pretty much all food animals get to do anyways so maybe not that different. It has no cerebrum. It never has a thought. It cant have a thought. Of course if you poked it with a pointy stick it would still flinch away, because rapid response to dangerous stimuli is handled by the spinal cord and brain stem, ie it can automatically flinch from pain. It can physically respond to pain, but it can't experience pain. Would it be wrong to eat them, they wouldn't be able to suffer anymore than a plant.
Edited by blackbird415
@DevWil:  
 
You are correct. I thought you had made a statement similar to that and I was wrong, im sorry. 
 
Problem is you have yet to answer any of my other questions. 
  

 Why is that? 
 
Are you simply having a hard time finding answers for those questions? 
 
is your brain exploding from the number of questions I have for you? 
 
Or are you simply so annoyed by all my questioning of your point of view and challenging your views to where you dont want to answer them? 
 
or is it a mixture of the questions above? 
 
im simply asking you questions at this point and you have failed to  answer my questions. 
My thoughts are that you simply cant argue all of my points and questions therefore you ignore them 
so that you dont have to think differently from you have set for yourself.  
 
Thats what most people do and its due to the the education systems of the world, 
 
This is just a thought though, not necessarily true or fact. The reason your not answering my questions, not the education thing, 
I could write a 20 page paper about that.
Edited by DevWil
@Supermarius said:

" @DevWil:  Did you read my whole post? The important part wasn't science fiction. Whether an animal is self aware or not seems like the important bit. Can a fish suffer to any meaningful capacity? Can a chicken? If it lacks the cognitive ability to experience fear, because it cannot conceive of its own mortality or of a "self", can it suffer in the traditional sense of the word. The moral problem with eating meat has to be causing suffering, because if it is simply the extinguishment of life, then eating plants would be wrong too, as they are most certainly alive. 
 
What if farmers bred or genetically engineered an animal that had a severely stunted stunted brain, lets say just a brain stem. It can't really do anything on its own. It has to be fed by tubes, but thats pretty much all food animals get to do anyways so maybe not that different. It has no cerebrum. It never has a thought. It cant have a thought. Of course if you poked it with a pointy stick it would still flinch away, because rapid response to dangerous stimuli is handled by the spinal cord and brain stem, ie it can automatically flinch from pain. It can physically respond to pain, but it can't experience pain. Would it be wrong to eat them, they wouldn't be able to suffer anymore than a plant. "

this is more like it.  maybe i read your post too fast, because this is a meaningful question. 
 
at this point, i don't want to eat animal flesh.  i just find it unappealing on an aesthetic level.  i don't want to put muscle in my mouth.  however, if somehow people are growing beef nearly the same way they might grow bananas, the moral concern is--indeed--greatly lowered.  if it's meat sans animal, it becomes much more acceptable, of course.
 
fish and chickens aren't brilliant animals, of course.  but it's still better to leave them alone, i think.  i just don't want blood on my hands at the dinner table, so to speak.
 
  @blackbird415 said:

" @DevWil:   You are correct. I thought you had made a statement similar to that and I was wrong, im sorry.  Problem is you have yet to answer any of my other question.  Why is that?  Are you simply having a hard time finding answers for those questions?  is your brain exploding from the number of questions I have for you?  Or are you simply so annoyed by all my questioning of your point of view and challenging your views to where you dont want to answer them?  or is it a mixture of the questions above? "

i'm, unfortunately, too dismissive of you to go back and see what you want me to answer.  it seems like you wanted me to substantiate my claim that the western world is horrified by dog meat but loves cow meat (and leather, etc).  i don't feel that's controversial enough that i need to prove it.  frankly, i think you're being distracting and i am not interested in entertaining you.  feel free to prove me wrong. 
 
post-edit edit: don't try to criticize education when earlier you couldn't spell multiple words that i'd spelled correctly in a post of mine that you quoted.  you're being ridiculous and egotistical.
Edited by Supermarius
@DevWil:   You know i think a better focus for the immorality argument for meat eating would be the idea that the production of meat on the scale utilized by western society requires an amount of resources that is disproportionate relative to the number of people it serves.  The western meat heavy diet would be unsustainable if the resources of the earth were fairly distributed to all peoples. You could argue that in a more egalitarian society the amount of precious resources a meat heavy diet consumes would be immoral because resources are a zero-sum game once they are being fully utilized. It would be immoral if people in africa were starving in order to feed americans need for meat. This sort of happened with the irish potato famine where are all the prime farmland in ireland was forcibly used to feed cattle for british beef while the irish people themselves were forced to grow potatoes in the remaining low-quality land for sustenance.  
Posted by MAN_FLANNEL
@sddi said:
" Here goes some arguments for not eating meat that only concern people, since many posters seem to have little regard for the lives of cows and chickens.  -Switching grazing fields to crop fields would provide more food for the same amount of space. This is a fact, not an opinion. World hunger would decrease. Sounds pretty good, right? -With fewer cows being raised for consumption, much less ammonia, methane, and carbon dioxide will be emitted. Also a huge plus. -Most of the food scares (admittedly, not all) concern meat. Mad cow disease, H1N1, and Avian Influenza to name a few.  While people who eat meat may indeed live to be 100, the average vegetarian will be healthier than the average omnivore. Add that to helping end global warming, starvation, and disease and it sounds pretty good, doesn't it?  "
Yeah, that wouldn't work at all, and it is not going to happen.  The more diverse our food sources are, the more sustainable they are. Everything is so interconnected that you can't simply put a halt to the livestock industry.  How do you plan on growing crops without manure?  Artificial fertilizer?  Yeah I guess you could do that if you wanted to pollute our water and ruin our lakes.  Point is that reasoning such as yours is inconsiderate and uneducated.               
Posted by JJWeatherman
@mshaw006 said:
" @DevWil: After reading this entire thread, I believe DevWil has not been condescending, has been entirely reasonable in his politeness and subsequent frustration, and has, thus far, not met with a successful counter to his argument. Props to you, man, for putting up with all the crazies who turn vicious at the word vegetarian and then accuse you of being a jerk. "
Agreed. 
 
This should be locked soon so the OP doesn't have to feel tempted to respond to ridiculous comments. I think this has run it's course anyways.
Edited by Rowr

wtf, i didnt know it was possible to be offensive to vegetarians with jokes.
 
What the hell is this.
 
I dont understand your Beef.
 
 
 
(geddit?)
 
I think your being a whiny bitch, everyone deals with a few jokes in some manner of how they are different, thats fucking life. Sure it can get tiresome but its not in any mean spirit - it doesnt breed any hate. I disagree that those comments were reasonabley offensive.

Posted by Supermarius

I dunno, i think people are just posting alot because its late and this is interesting :P

Posted by Derecto
@Ryax said:
" eat all the meat you want? who gives a fuck?  "
'cus ppl like you is why this society is just fucked up...
Edited by OllyOxenFree

What's that?  I can't hear you over eating my delicious steak, bacon, pork, and chikkenz.
 
Also hamburgers.

Edited by blackbird415
@DevWil:  
 
Thats not my only question. If thats all you read from my posts then you clearly were not reading what I was saying. That was one point I brought up, but if you decide to dismiss people's statements in order to keep to your own little mind, I guess thats your choice. At least I read your full blog post. 
 
Dismissive is what you are.  
Yes of course Im the distracting one. Im the one who just is making such ridiculous claims as to ask questions about your opinion and object to some. Yes Im the one who made the judging blog post that had me and many others "trolling" you for statements you made. 
 
I dont think your concept of people hating the concept of dogs as food, but eat beef is controversial. I think your blanket statement about people is the more controversial. Its not the fried chicken and watermelon thats controversial about black stereotypes, its  the idea of stereotyping itself.  
 
Frankly I find you Highly smug, high and mighty, dismissive, rude, and prejudicial. You have your head stuck pretty far up your ass to where vegetarians are calling you ridiculous.
 
So.... what do you think of the meat made from a petri dish? Basically the flesh without the animal.   
 
You entertain plenty with your ignorance. You have very few points to your argument and all you do is repeat them and never expand on anything else, you just repeat yourself as you have said many times throughout this thread. 
Posted by ColumnBreaker

Original post is a bunch of bullshit. However, you retain style points for the epic forsberg crocs avatar.

Posted by sddi
@MAN_FLANNEL: Sigh. As I stated in an earlier comment, I agree that you 'can't simply put a halt on the meat industry.' That's never going to happen over night. The reasons I listed are reasons I don't want to be a part of the meat industry (in addition to not wanting to harm animals), but there is not going to be a day when one hour everyone's eating hamburgers, and the next everyone has a veggie burger in their hands. There is also not going to be a day (at least any time soon) when there are no cows on earth. We haven't even begun to talk about the dairy industry. Manure will not be hard to come by anytime soon. If people's eating patterns change slowly over time, our practices for harvesting food will evolve as well. I'm new to internet threads, but is it so hard to state your opinion without resorting to calling the other person 'uneducated' and 'inconsiderate'? 
Posted by jim_dandy

This post makes me want to go hunting. Something I never had an interest in before.
 
The blood of innocent wild luchadeer is on your hands.

Posted by Virago
@jim_dandy said:
" This post makes me want to go hunting. Something I never had an interest in before. The blood of innocent wild luchadeer is on your hands. "
Kill the infidel!
heh =)
Posted by DevWil
@blackbird415 said:
" @DevWil:   Thats not my only question. If thats all you read from my posts then you clearly were not reading what I was saying. That was one point I brought up, but if you decide to dismiss people's statements in order to keep to your own little mind, I guess thats your choice. At least I read your full blog post.  Dismissive is what you are.  Yes of course Im the distracting one. Im the one who just is making such ridiculous claims as to ask questions about your opinion and object to some. Yes Im the one who made the judging blog post that had me and many others "trolling" you for statements you made.  I dont think your concept of people hating the concept of dogs as food, but eat beef is controversial. I think your blanket statement about people is the more controversial. Its not the fried chicken and watermelon thats controversial about black stereotypes, its  the idea of stereotyping itself.   Frankly I find you Highly smug, high and mighty, dismissive, rude, and prejudicial. You have your head stuck pretty far up your ass to where vegetarians are calling you ridiculous. So.... what do you think of the meat made from a petri dish? Basically the flesh without the animal.    You entertain plenty with your ignorance. You have very few points to your argument and all you do is repeat them and never expand on anything else, you just repeat yourself as you have said many times throughout this thread.  "
i already answered a "flesh without animal" hypothetical and i have no idea what you're talking about otherwise.
 
i gave you a chance to elaborate and you really didn't.  i don't understand what stereotyping i'm doing and you seriously sound crazy to me.  i don't understand you and that's only one of our faults.  i'm not rushing to take credit.
Edited by JumpKick
@DevWil: 
 
You were saying that  "red meat is one of the worse things for your body". Which is incorrect.  People can live perfect normal long living lives with a diet containing meat. Not everyone who eats meat gets cancer. Maybe his colon cancer stemmed from herbicides and pesticides. 
 
Yes I am saying that the killing is for myself and others morally irreverent. I could just not eat meat sure. But I don't feel one way or the other about it and I like my meat and veg. 
 
I think you have a good discussion about the morality of eating a sentient conscious being. I guess as animal cloning becomes more successful they could just bread animals that have no ability beyond eating and reproducing. No self conciusness what so ever.
Posted by Supermarius
@DevWil:  well, yes. Some posters are crazy. Imagine if you tried having this conversation with Ted Nugent.
Edited by DevWil
@JumpKick said:

" @DevWil:   You were saying that  "red meat is one of the worse things for your body". Which is incorrect.  People can live perfect normal long living lives with a diet containing meat. Not everyone who eats meat gets cancer. Maybe his colon cancer stemmed from herbicides and pesticides.    Yes I am saying that the killing is for myself and others morally irreverent. I could just not eat meat sure. But I don't feel one way or the other about it and I like my meat and veg.   I think you have a good discussion about the morality of eating a sentient conscious being. I guess as animal cloning becomes more successful they could just bread animals that have no ability beyond eating and reproducing. No self conciusness what so ever. "

red meat is bad for you.  i said that and based on my limited understanding of medicine (which isn't based simply on anecdotal evidence of ONE family like yours seems to be), it's not false.
 
i did not say "meat is bad for you".  stop acting like i did.  i never said meat automatically shortens your life by 20 years.  i barely said anything about the health benefits of going vegetarian.
Posted by JazzyJeff

I enjoyed reading your blog post, but I don't feel the argument you pose calls for a direct response. Your position is based purely on what you perceive to be moral. While I do see that as being an acceptable basis for your lifestyle choice, subjective arguments can only come to one conclusion: We don't agree on the morality of the subject matter. No one wins, no one loses.
 
That said, I think it's awesome that you're standing up for your beliefs by not supporting the meat industry. I sometimes wrestle with the idea of trying vegetarianism, but haven't felt strongly enough about the issue to actually take the plunge. I'd like to at least try it someday, and your blog post put the idea back in my mind. In that that regard, I'd say that you've succeeded in at least making someone think about it. :)

Posted by DevWil
@JazzyJeff:  That's awesome.  All the grief I dealt with in the comments is worth it if it makes just one person re-consider their diet.
Posted by blackbird415
@DevWil:
@DevWil said:

i already answered a "flesh without animal" hypothetical and i have no idea what you're talking about otherwise.  
um, thats real. It really exists. Its not a hypothetical or science fiction. It is real and is being developed even more.
  
@DevWil said:
 i gave you a chance to elaborate and you really didn't.  i don't understand what stereotyping i'm doing and you seriously sound crazy to me.  i don't understand you and that's only one of our faults.  i'm not rushing to take credit. "
@DevWil said:

  @blackbird415 said:

" @DevWil:   You are correct. I thought you had made a statement similar to that and I was wrong, im sorry.  Problem is you have yet to answer any of my other question.  Why is that?  Are you simply having a hard time finding answers for those questions?  is your brain exploding from the number of questions I have for you?  Or are you simply so annoyed by all my questioning of your point of view and challenging your views to where you dont want to answer them?  or is it a mixture of the questions above? "

i'm, unfortunately, too dismissive of you to go back and see what you want me to answer.  it seems like you wanted me to substantiate my claim that the western world is horrified by dog meat but loves cow meat (and leather, etc).  i don't feel that's controversial enough that i need to prove it.  frankly, i think you're being distracting and i am not interested in entertaining you.  feel free to prove me wrong.  post-edit edit: don't try to criticize education when earlier you couldn't spell multiple words that i'd spelled correctly in a post of mine that you quoted.  you're being ridiculous and egotistical. "
Was the "feel free to prove me wrong" the chance to elaborate? Are you trying to defend the education system now? I have made minimal spelling errors this entire time actually and the automatic spell checker has shown me to be correct, and if you are making an indirect statement that school has something to do with intelligence and correctness of grammar and spelling you are sorely mistaken.  
 
The quote below is a statement saying that most people in the western world (obviously the east is so much different and really does think about the morality of killing animals before eating any  (sarcasm))   

" most people in the west eat meat without considering the morality of it.  that's something i feel confident saying and i don't think i'm being unfair."
 
and no, i'm not so simple that i meant "the West" as America.  that's why i capitalized 'West' and didn't say 'America'.  i meant the Western World as opposed to the Eastern (Oriental) World.  that isn't to say that everyone in India is a vegan, but it's a very different culture.      
 
 
This is the real point of view you have that I have to some extent honed in on from which I find prejudicial and ridiculous. Not only is it that you consider that people don't think about the animals they are eating and the morality of it, but that the eastern world is much different in its attitude on the morality of killing animals ( which I find ironic considering "the cove" a documentary of the slaughtering of thousands of dolphins in Japan won an oscar this year) 
Posted by DevWil
@blackbird415:   
 
you're cute. 
 
i commented on the west because: 
 
1. that's where i've spent my whole life 
 
2.  the east has more cultures that are more accomodating/promotional of vegetarianism.  my own vegetarianism is influenced by buddhism, which is an eastern religion.  this isn't something i should have to tell you. 
 
was it so hard to ask a question explicitly? 
 
i'm done with the forums for tonight.  don't make me wake up to a frustrating mess, please, community.
Posted by Asurastrike
@DevWil said:
" I know this isn't the perfect venue and I'm probably speaking to the wrong audience, but I'd like to do something good.  How good this thing is and if it's even significant at all is a subjective thing, or is it?  That's kind of the subject I want to bring up. 
 
Meat.  The Giant Bomb staff is composed of those who may, from time to time, talk about how they enjoy eating meat.  The Giant Bomb community seems to largely like to eat meat as well. 
 
This isn't a silly rant about how I feel alienated by the Giant Bomb staff or excluded from the Giant Bomb community and how I think that in itself is outrageous.  I laughed at Vinny's joke on an old Bombcast about a 29-year-old lifelong vegetarian who was going to try meat for the first time on his birthday.  One staff member suggested that the person may not be strong enough to lift a fork to their mouth (from not eating meat) and Vinny countered along the lines of, "Well his neck would be so long from reaching leaves..." 
 
That's funny.  At its core, it's offensive (something Ryan himself acknowledged during the discussion), but it's clever and didn't seem to be said in a way that indicated that Vinny really hated vegetarians or anything. 
 
However, let's get to the issue itself: 
 
Isn't eating meat just...kind of a dick move? 
 
Humans are (apparently) supremely intelligent.  We can create awesome works of film, music, video games, etc.  However, we're still animals.  Any biology textbook will tell you that.  Other animals have emotions and can sense pain just like we do.  The double standard of people in the West cringing at the thought of eating a dog and salivating at the idea of eating a cow is ridiculous.  Sure, cows may be way dumber than dogs.  I don't know.  I'm not a zoopsychologist or whatever the correct term is for studying animal intelligence, but why not just leave them be? 
 
We as a species spend enough time ruining each others' lives; why rope more species into it?   
 
My worldview is heavily influenced by Buddhism (and I self-identify as a Buddhist) and it shouldn't come as a surprise given the focus of this post.  While I don't hold a eulogy if I accidentally hit and kill a moth as I'm driving, I don't want to consent to the killing of another living being.  If these creatures didn't want to be alive, they'd stop eating and lie down and die.  They have a will to live and--while people in the West certainly have a history of being fine with imposing their will on others--it's just a dick move to kill them for food. 
 
I started dating a vegetarian in Fall 2007.  I'm still with her.  After about 8-9 months of being with her, I figured "maybe I'll give vegetarianism a go" after no pressuring from her.  Once I ate a hot dog, mini-BBQ-rib-thing, and hamburger in front of her in a single sitting without her suggesting that I was morally inferior.  I never expected vegetarianism to stick (at least, not on the first try), but it did and I've been a vegetarian for two years. 
 
It is so easy to cut meat out of your diet.  I'm not the healthiest person in the world (far from it as I--surprise, surprise--have a very sedentary lifestyle), but I am absolutely no less healthy than I would've been eating meat.  You don't need to take 8 pills a day to replace nutrients found in meat.  Want a view into my super-crazy, hippy-dippy vegetarian diet? 
 
A very ordinary day: 
-Breakfast: Cereal. 
-Lunch: Bagel. 
-Dinner: Pizza. 
 
It really sucks just eating iceberg lettuce and plain celery all day, guys. 
 
Now, obviously this is subjective: but my favorite pizza toppings have never been meat.  Green peppers and mushrooms have been my 1 and 2 even since I would eat a hamburger without any guilt.  YES, YOU CAN EAT NORMAL PEOPLE FOOD WHEN YOU ARE A VEGETARIAN.  Guess what I had this afternoon?  Ice cream.  I'm not an alien.  I'll be the first one to admit that eating out gets a little trickier (Chinese and Indian food become much more commonplace--but who cares, Indian is delicious) and I understand peoples' suspicions about faux-meat products.  Trust me, though.  Fake chicken patties taste a lot like chicken patties.  And nobody had to die!  Not every meat has an acceptable vegetarian substitute, but the options are a lot better than most people assume.  Raw tofu is kind of gross, but so are so many other foods when they're not prepared well.  I decided today that I'm going to start promoting vegetarianism when I'm out with friends and family rather than just be the guy who gets stupid questions like "so you eat Turkey burgers instead?" and "wait, can you eat eggs?! those are baby chickens!!!!" and answers them politely and sheepishly.  And then I wrote this blog.   Eating meat and not eating meat are directly comparable and there is really no coherent argument that I've heard for eating meat being the superior position.      I understand that some people are simply not interested in the welfare of animals or the process behind what they eat and this blog won't change those peoples' minds.  That can be such a deep-rooted value that I have no delusions of getting someone who simply doesn't care to stop eating meat.  However...if you're a little more compassionate/sympathetic and actually think about the consequences and morality of your actions...consider if you want to keep doing the dickish thing and kill animals just so you can have a trivially different diet.* As this blog is pretty stream-of-consciousness-y, I can guarantee I'll wish I wrote things differently later.  I'm definitely not going to shy away from discussion, but if it's nit-picking about the blog rather than arguments for/against a position that fuels the commentary, I'll probably just ignore what you have to say (or try to). * "
Is my cat a dick when he eats mice?
Posted by Heylook
@DevWil:  This debate is the same debate as any other.
 
Life will end as we know it some day, none of this will matter at that point. Shitty idiology but it's the most accurate.
Everything ends, and once the world as we know it and all life is gone no one will give a flying fuck about who ate what in their life span of 90 years or what not. 
 
Also, your opinion is your opinion and I respect it. I was a vegetarian for about 5 years before I got out of that phase, yeah I still feel bad when I eat meat sometimes but I also feel bad when I see starving kids in third world countries and yet I don't donate money to them. I wouldn't consider myself to be evil or hate filled or even morally supirior to anyone based on my view and opinions, to do that is the definition of smug (don't you watch south park?). Being a caring individual for what matters to you morally is what's most important in life, at least in my eyes it is.
 
Good for you though, you're doing what you think is right and you're obviously getting some self satisfaction from it. It probably makes you feel super awesome and that's cool but it's just not fair to guilt people into your point of view, and yes that is what I got from reading your OP and later posts.
 
tl;dr version:
 
People have free will.
 
Also, the majority rules, always. If you don't like it, cope with it.
Edited by JumpKick
@DevWil: 
 
Okay you said RED meat is bad for you. But lets no split hairs. You also said that red meat was associated with  your uncles cancer. Which is a health thing is it not.  Also the belief that red meat causes bowel cancer is not proven and studies have shown that it does and that it doesn't depending on what scientific study is being cited at the time. It's an ongoing debate. Just like mobile phones causing cancer there is two sides, one study shows yes and  the other no.  So yes,  I am possibly wrong in saying that red meat doesn't cause cancer as well, since it's not conclusive. 
 
It's an interesting subject. Really they could produce animals in the future that have no more consciousness than a plant.  Then I guess the  dilemma would be if its appropriate to do so. There is already development in ways to grow human organs and tissue and such  going on, so I could see that going into meat production.
 
I'd say that the idea of growing meat or genetically developing animals for people who will eat meat is fairly likely in the future. Cuts costs and waste. But who knows maybe we will all be eating some new kind of  food by then, which is artificially made specifically for sustenance . 
 
But really everything in life is a moral decision by people, if they personally feel like what there doing is justifiable. You've made your choice and good for you.