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Posted by Akrid
@sddi: A good point to be sure. I thought it would be better to apologize beforehand then it being completely transparent that I didn't read that much of it.
Edited by NoXious

Survival of the Fittest / Natural Selection:
Man > Cow. This gives us the right to slaughter cow, if cow don't like it - why doesn't cow do something about it?
It can't, because it isn't on the top of the food chain. Too fucking bad, now go eat some grass so I can have my daily steak!

EDIT: Wait - the OP doesn't eat meat because he LOVES animals? Do you even realize that pigs serve no purpose on this planet (except meat supply)?
If we'd all stop eating meat, they'd all be killed since they are only helping the pollution of our planet... So you want the pig to go extinct? This counts for a lot of farm animals we're eating right now. What do chickens add if we stop eating eggs/chicken meat?

Edited by GIVEMEREPLAY

If we want to speak to the ethicality of eating, then eating plants is quite literally the worst thing you could do. Plants don't disturb anyone, they don't take up much space (individually, anyhow). They produce oxygen, prevent erosion, naturally replenish soil, and (with  the exception of carnivorous plants) don't do direct harm to any other creature. 
 
 Animals on the other hand universally live only via the destruction of other living things. Pigs, dogs, cats, whales, fish, cows and so on survive through the MURDER of other species.  This is of course the origin of the problem that vegetarian animal lovers face- they implore us to not eat meat, yet they embrace animals which survive through the massacre of others.  
 
If you want to be truly ethical you should eat ONLY animals, as each animal is by its very nature guilty of the murder of other plants and animals. This puts us ethically on the same plane as carnivores, but higher than herbivores, which kill the most defenseless of all living things to survive. 

Edited by jNerd
@DevWil said: 

Isn't eating meat just...kind of a dick move?   

That's where I stopped reading

 You're kind of a dick.
Posted by Virago

@Devwil: I appreciate the fact that you're trying to open people's minds, but the truth is, you're making the rest of us vegetarians look like sel-righteous dipshits, and now the forums are getting "is being a vegetarian dumb" threads. This is not fair, and I hold you accountable for weakening my respect as a vegetarian on this site. I'm disappointed in you sir.

Posted by sddi
@Virago: It really is too bad that's happening, but don't you think that's more of a reflection of the people starting the 'is being a vegetarian dumb' threads, rather than of the OP? Most of the people that have been attacking him have already made up their minds on the issue. Either they eat meat or they don't, they don't want someone trying to engage in an intelligent discussion about it. Some people have stated that they will now consider going vegetarian. Doesn't that make it worth it? 
Posted by angelfan91

Soy Chorizo is damn good.  It tastes exactly the same.
Posted by davidwitten22

I have never understood being a vegetarian and not going full blown vegan. If you're not going to eat animals because it's wrong to kill and torture animals, then it shouldn't be right to steal a cows milk or eat a chicken egg. These things are not made organically, as chances are the milk you're drinking is from tortured cows who are being pumped full of god knows what to produce that milk for you. 
 
There's nothing wrong with being a vegetarian or anything else in my opinion, but by starting off your argument by calling a huge percentage of the population a dick really hurts the validity of said argument.

Posted by rjayb89

I like to eat meat 
You do not like to eat meat 
Basically, fuck meat

Posted by JasonDaPsycho
@DevWil:  Nope, being hypocritical is not right, but yet here we are. We are all hypocrites. We just try not to be hypocrites. I'm trying not to be one, but yet I still am. 
I've read an article a couple of years back, and it was really fascinating. It was mentioning how Buddhists make food that resemble meat.
The whole thing about Buddhism is not to have earthly desires or something like that, and yet here we are. Buddhists wanting to eat something that resembles meat.
 
I understand your concerns about killing animals. I have Buddhists reelatives who are pretty close with me. I know how some of you think, about how taking a life is bad for karma, how much is a life worth and it shouldn't be up to us to decide on their rights to live.
But perhaps I'm just a heartless Catholic, I don't feel the same way some of you do. I think killing animals is part of ourselves. It's like a natural instinct in other animals which consume meat. It's inborn and it's the way of the world.
We all hate those soccer players in England who get paid a bunch for their gifts and talents. They don't even work half as hard as Kobe Bryant and yet they make much more than us in a month than we do in a year.  It's fucked up, but it's how the Earth spins.

And while it's true that we don't eat that much amount of meat, but there will be a void lareger than most expected when we give it up.
I mean, it's like TV to me. I don't watch that much TV anymore, but yet it feels like something is missing when the TV is gone.
 
By the way, one of the problems with the way you argue is how you make people who eat meat look wrong. You may not be trying to but the post just somehow ended up that way. If you really want people to follow your lifestyle, make people want to follow your lifestyle instead of making them want to give up their current one.
Posted by Ryax
@DevWil: yep. you're a fucking idiot.  get a life you retarded troll. go fuck a tree. no one gives a shit what you say and you're making yourself look like a giant douche.
 
/thread
Posted by Kazona
@sddi: By that reasoning, I should put my cat on a diet of vegetables as well since he doesn't have to hunt for his meat. But guess what: he doesn't eat vegetables.  
 
And if we don't need meat, why are there so many things to substitute it? Obviously there's things in meat that the human body needs, otherwise we wouldn't need those substitutes if we stopped eating it.  
 
I don't know where you get the idea from that all those animals are cooped up and pumped full of chemicals, but you're absolutely wrong. Yes, it does happen, and still too often. But you can choose to buy meat products of animals that were allowed to roam free, and had no contact with chemicals whatsoever, which is what I do. I'd say that the way I acquire my meat is a lot more humane than the way a crocodile does it. 
Edited by DevWil
@Akrid said:

" Cereal, bagel, pizza, ice cream. These things are not meant for you. All these foods have eggs or milk in them. Milk comes from cows. Said cows are on a farm. On this farm, the cows are artificially inseminated and, after however long a cows gestation period happens to be, gives birth to a calf. This calf is soon taken away to be bred as another dairy cow or used for veal. The calf is replaced with a machine.  It's fairly similar when it comes to chickens as well.  To an intelligent being, this would be considered torture. I don't really see a distinction between torture or death. I am not a vegan, I love meat. As for me, I can live with it. But it annoys me greatly when vegetarians think they're saving the animals.  Also, do you really want to take away roughly half of the worlds food supply when we're so close to finishing off world hunger? If everyone became a vegetarian over night, we would soon starve. It is unsustainable, if only because we are heavily set in our ways.  By the way, I'm in no ways a humanitarian, just playing the part of one for sake of argument. Sorry if this has already been said, I'm not reading 8 pages of this shit. "  

pretty sure most cereals and bagels are vegan.   
 
i'm not a vegan and it's something i feel guilty about on a regular basis.  i'd prefer not to be criticized for eating milk and eggs when the point of this thread is eating/not eating meat.  i won't be surprised if i end up a vegan in the near future.  it's just that milk and eggs aren't inherently unethical and i have a "don't ask/don't tell" approach to where they come from.  meat, on the other hand, necessarily comes from the killing of an animal.  chickens will regularly lay unfertilized eggs whether we want them to or not, though, and they aren't going to use them for anything themselves...so i don't feel especially guilty about eating eggs.  same goes for honey.  the way eggs and honey are procured and how ethically it's done is a company-specific thing and i just don't investigate (even if i should).
 
but i'm not perfect and i hope revealing so doesn't make people take me less seriously.
 
we wouldn't starve if we stopped eating meat.  that's an absurd notion and totally unfounded. 
 
@NoXious
said:

" Survival of the Fittest / Natural Selection:Man > Cow. This gives us the right to slaughter cow, if cow don't like it - why doesn't cow do something about it?It can't, because it isn't on the top of the food chain. Too fucking bad, now go eat some grass so I can have my daily steak!EDIT: Wait - the OP doesn't eat meat because he LOVES animals? Do you even realize that pigs serve no purpose on this planet (except meat supply)?If we'd all stop eating meat, they'd all be killed since they are only helping the pollution of our planet... So you want the pig to go extinct? This counts for a lot of farm animals we're eating right now. What do chickens add if we stop eating eggs/chicken meat? "  

we don't need to kill cows.  if someone is stronger than me or more adept with a gun than me, very few would say that they have a responsibility to express their ability to end my life.  we have evolved past that.
 
animals wouldn't go extinct if we stopped eating them.  most meat eaten in the world comes from domesticated animals, which are being created for the sole purpose of being destroyed.
 
wild animals will keep doing just fine and nature will do what it will with any existing domesticated animals (which shouldn't be cataclysmic by any stretch of the imagination).  i'm not suggesting that people who raise livestock right now keep raising it without killing it.  that's just stupid.  i'm saying leave animals alone.
 
@GIVEMEREPLAY
said:

" If we want to speak to the ethicality of eating, then eating plants is quite literally the worst thing you could do. Plants don't disturb anyone, they don't take up much space (individually, anyhow). They produce oxygen, prevent erosion, naturally replenish soil, and (with  the exception of carnivorous plants) don't do direct harm to any other creature.   Animals on the other hand universally live only via the destruction of other living things. Pigs, dogs, cats, whales, fish, cows and so on survive through the MURDER of other species.  This is of course the origin of the problem that vegetarian animal lovers face- they implore us to not eat meat, yet they embrace animals which survive through the massacre of others.   If you want to be truly ethical you should eat ONLY animals, as each animal is by its very nature guilty of the murder of other plants and animals. This puts us ethically on the same plane as carnivores, but higher than herbivores, which kill the most defenseless of all living things to survive.  "  

plants tend not to bother anybody, but they also don't have nervous systems.  also, plenty of plants are left undisturbed by vegetarians.  i don't eat pine trees.
 
and, again, animals are not held morally responsible. 
 
@JasonDaPsycho
said:

" @DevWil:  Nope, being hypocritical is not right, but yet here we are. We are all hypocrites. We just try not to be hypocrites. I'm trying not to be one, but yet I still am.  I've read an article a couple of years back, and it was really fascinating. It was mentioning how Buddhists make food that resemble meat. The whole thing about Buddhism is not to have earthly desires or something like that, and yet here we are. Buddhists wanting to eat something that resembles meat.  I understand your concerns about killing animals. I have Buddhists reelatives who are pretty close with me. I know how some of you think, about how taking a life is bad for karma, how much is a life worth and it shouldn't be up to us to decide on their rights to live. But perhaps I'm just a heartless Catholic, I don't feel the same way some of you do. I think killing animals is part of ourselves. It's like a natural instinct in other animals which consume meat. It's inborn and it's the way of the world. We all hate those soccer players in England who get paid a bunch for their gifts and talents. They don't even work half as hard as Kobe Bryant and yet they make much more than us in a month than we do in a year.  It's fucked up, but it's how the Earth spins.And while it's true that we don't eat that much amount of meat, but there will be a void lareger than most expected when we give it up. I mean, it's like TV to me. I don't watch that much TV anymore, but yet it feels like something is missing when the TV is gone.   By the way, one of the problems with the way you argue is how you make people who eat meat look wrong. You may not be trying to but the post just somehow ended up that way. If you really want people to follow your lifestyle, make people want to follow your lifestyle instead of making them want to give up their current one. "  

 
i'm a buddhist, but by no means a monk.
 
the "why do vegetarians eat food that is reminiscent of meat?" question is old and not really a concern.  i eat fake chicken patties fairly regularly, but not because i want to eat chicken.  it's because i want to eat something  and fake chicken patties taste good.  i just happen to have a prior point of reference from real chicken patties.
 
eating meat isn't as natural as people assert it is.  yes, our digestive systems can handle it, but it's wholly unnecessary and i personally don't have to repress urges to eat flesh.  we've evolved past our most primal instincts, regardless if being a carnivore is one of them.  people don't naturally see animals as a source of food.  even people who eat meat block it out of their minds.  we don't look at cats and dogs and think "that'd be tasty!"  and many people don't even look at cows that way.  but once it's rendered unalive and abstracted into a red slab of something you've eaten before, it's perceived as a food resource.
 
@Ryax
said:

" @DevWil: yep. you're a fucking idiot.  get a life you retarded troll. go fuck a tree. no one gives a shit what you say and you're making yourself look like a giant douche. /thread "  

despite your best efforts to be a stereotypical forum troll, the thread didn't end when you said '/thread'.  nice try, though.  i bet you really thought it'd work this time.
 
@Kazona
said:

" @sddi: By that reasoning, I should put my cat on a diet of vegetables as well since he doesn't have to hunt for his meat. But guess what: he doesn't eat vegetables.   And if we don't need meat, why are there so many things to substitute it? Obviously there's things in meat that the human body needs, otherwise we wouldn't need those substitutes if we stopped eating it.   I don't know where you get the idea from that all those animals are cooped up and pumped full of chemicals, but you're absolutely wrong. Yes, it does happen, and still too often. But you can choose to buy meat products of animals that were allowed to roam free, and had no contact with chemicals whatsoever, which is what I do. I'd say that the way I acquire my meat is a lot more humane than the way a crocodile does it.  "

you don't need to go out of your way to replace nutrients found in meat and you can do so without seeking foods that are specifically aimed at vegetarians.
Edited by GIVEMEREPLAY
@DevWil said:

 plants tend not to bother anybody, but they also don't have nervous systems.  also, plenty of plants are left undisturbed by vegetarians.  i don't eat pine trees.
 
and, again, animals are not held morally responsible. 
   

 The capacity to suffer doesn't change the issue of guilt. Killing something which doesn't kill to live is obviously more unethical than killing something which does kill other living things to survive. The idea that capacity for suffering produces guilt necessarily results in arbitrary line drawing about when the capacity to feel no longer constitutes something worth worrying about. Do yeast suffer? Do we have the capacity to tell whether they suffer?  
 
I will also remind you that we humans are also animals.  
 

 also, plenty of plants are left undisturbed by vegetarians.  i don't eat pine trees.

   And omnivores don't necessarily eat every animal that exists, either. What was your point here?
Posted by muttjones

@ DevWil 
 
Why make the decision to promote vegetarianism and create this thread when you have already agreed that you can't change some people's values. Forums are made of ignorant and illogical people, the exact people you have come to terms with the reality that you could never change their mind. 
 
This thing is just a fucking waste of time. Stop crapping up the forums.

Posted by DevWil
@GIVEMEREPLAY said:

" @DevWil said:

 plants tend not to bother anybody, but they also don't have nervous systems.  also, plenty of plants are left undisturbed by vegetarians.  i don't eat pine trees.
 
and, again, animals are not held morally responsible. 
   

 The capacity to suffer doesn't change the issue of guilt. Killing something which doesn't kill to live is obviously more unethical than killing something which does kill other living things to survive. The idea that capacity for suffering produces guilt necessarily results in arbitrary line drawing about when the capacity to feel no longer constitutes something worth worrying about. Do yeast suffer? Do we have the capacity to tell whether they suffer?  
 
I will also remind you that we humans are also animals.  
 

 also, plenty of plants are left undisturbed by vegetarians.  i don't eat pine trees.

   And omnivores don't necessarily eat every animal that exists, either. What was your point here? "
you said: 
 
 " They produce oxygen, prevent erosion, naturally replenish soil "

me eating some plants doesn't preclude those positive things from happening.

i don't really understand your point before the second quote. your assertion that killing an herbivore is less ethical than killing a carnivore is debatable. i personally don't think it matters, unless the carnivore is trying really hard to eat you and you're trying really hard not to be eaten.    (this whole thing is underlined and i can't un-underline it) 
 

Edited by DevWil
@muttjones said:

" @ DevWil  Why make the decision to promote vegetarianism and create this thread when you have already agreed that you can't change some people's values. Forums are made of ignorant and illogical people, the exact people you have come to terms with the reality that you could never change their mind.  This thing is just a fucking waste of time. Stop crapping up the forums. "

because in promoting vegetarianism i'm trying to appeal to certain people's existing values.  you'd understand that if you'd read everything i've said, as i've laid it out plainly more than once.  i'm not going to get most people to put down their hunting rifle to pick up a veggie burger, but i think i can get people to re-consider why they love dogs and love to eat cows.  if someone thinks animals are just resources to be exploited by humans, i'm not trying to get them to stop eating meat.  while i may respond to those people here and there, it's not my focus because i know it's a fool's errand.
 
i'm not making you waste your time and if i was crapping up the forums to a degree that needed to be stopped, the forum has moderators who are tasked with the responsibility of dealing with it.  after so many comments and views, i think a moderator would've taken care of it (or at least warned me) by now if i was doing anything reprehensible.
Posted by SirSuperior

I would eat a dog.

Posted by muttjones
@DevWil: So you're trying to convert the self admitting hypocrites. 
 
Seriously dude though, what did you expect other than you to be shutdown by almost everyone when you start off your argument with saying that doing what you don't do is a dick move?  
 
Also I feel considering you are not a Vegan that you shouldn't really be taking the complete moral high ground. Regardless of whether they are being killed or not, we are harassing the animals in ways that aren't natural to get what we want from them (meat, eggs etc.) 
 
And it is hard to change from being an omnivore to a vegetarian is tough. Meat gives us plenty of vital nutrients and to get them from vegetables is a lot tougher and requires much more effort (especially to find in America I would think). To say you still eat pizza means you are other not telling us what else you eat or you are living a very unhealthy lifestyle.
Edited by DevWil
@muttjones said:

" @DevWil: So you're trying to convert the self admitting hypocrites.  Seriously dude though, what did you expect other than you to be shutdown by almost everyone when you start off your argument with saying that doing what you don't do is a dick move?   Also I feel considering you are not a Vegan that you shouldn't really be taking the complete moral high ground. Regardless of whether they are being killed or not, we are harassing the animals in ways that aren't natural to get what we want from them (meat, eggs etc.)  And it is hard to change from being an omnivore to a vegetarian is tough. Meat gives us plenty of vital nutrients and to get them from vegetables is a lot tougher and requires much more effort (especially to find in America I would think).    To say you still eat pizza means you are other not telling us what else you eat or you are living a very unhealthy lifestyle. "

of course pizza doesn't make up my entire diet.  i don't think i eat it any more than the average person.  i just meant that pizza is a very normal food and vegetarians such as my self eat it too.
 
it's not hard to find things to eat as a vegetarian.  it's easier in some places than others, but even in semi-rural western pennsylvania i am very much content with the food i eat.  i spend most of the year elsewhere where i have an easier time, but i'm not miserable here.  there are two grocery stores in the area (which are just large, run-of-the-mill stores comparable to any other) and i don't have to go anywhere but one of those stores to get food for myself. 
 
yes, it's an inconvenience.  but it's a worthwhile inconvenience if you place moral weight on the idea of eating meat.  you don't have to start shopping exclusively at tiny health food stores or stop going out to eat.  it really isn't that inconvenient.  if you don't believe me, take inventory of the things you eat in a week.  consider how many of those things don't have meat or don't necessarily need meat.  then consider how many of those things can be replaced with easily-acquired meat substitutes (or something different altogether).  veggie burgers and the like aren't gross.  i know meat eaters who find them tasty.
 
if i exercised more, i'd be as healthy as anybody else (barring pro athletes and the like, obviously).  i don't get sick or feel tired any more than anyone i know.
 
you really don't need to eat meat.  seriously.  it's a myth.
 
i don't claim to be automatically more moral than anybody else just because i don't eat meat and i have utmost respect for vegans.  i simply haven't adopted that lifestyle.  i probably should.  it'd take a big commitment to do it, a much bigger one than is required than not eating meat.  i'm not perfect, but i consider the sacrifice necessary to not eat meat to be trivial compared to the moral implications.
 
i thought that calling eating meat "kind of a dick move" would be a more delicate and better-received way of phrasing it than opening my argument by using the words "bad", "unethical", or anything else that isn't as colloquial.  maybe it was a poor choice, but i thought if people could think of it as simply "kind of a dick move" they'd be more inclined to seriously consider it.
Posted by DevWil
Posted by FiestaUnicorn
@DevWil said:
"i hesitated to bump my own blog, but here's some dumb-ass doctors saying that you can be perfectly healthy without eating meat: 
 
http://www.adajournal.org/article/PIIS0002822303002943/fulltext "

All the vegetarian threads on this site lead to the loud anti vegetarian crowd here yelling that it's a bad idea.  If any of them read your link they simply say that it says meat free diets are bad for you and put up their own, wrong, reports that were probably funded by the American Meat Institute.   
None of the anti vegetarian arguments are even worth arguing against here because none of them hold any merit. 
Posted by JasonDaPsycho
@DevWil: 
I just skipped to the conclusion. Don't bother reading the whole freaking article. It failed to convince me why vegan diet is better than having meat in your diet.
I'm just saying there is no point in giving up meat in the diet when:
  • vegan diet isn't necessarily healthier.
  • vegan diet doesn't help a cause that much.
 
I'm not hating on those who have a vegan diet. To me it's more of a preference issue. Vegan diet doesn't appeal to me because there is no point in doing so (at least no point that looks good to me).
You have to start taking another approach. You can't change their minds (as well as mine) with this one.
Posted by Brendan
@DevWil:
Other animals kill each other for food constantly.  It's how the ecosystem works.  Human's overconsumption of animals due to such a large population would be the exact same for plants if we all stopped eating meat and made roomo for the whole world to be covered by farmland. 
Edited by EdIsCool

 I'm always amazed how meat eaters react when the topic gets around to "So Ed, you're a vegatarian".
it's like talking to a cult member, they get very defensive and come out with rubbish like "you're not gonna change me".Instead of actually thinking.
 
For me the immorality comes from how easy it is not to eat meat. I loved meat..I mean I really LOVED MEAT. But Morrissey with one line not a paticularly deep line changed me.
"This beautiful creature must die" 
and also "a death for no reason, and death for no reason is murder"
Eating meat  has no reason beyond its tasty. A point I wont deny, but it involves being complicit in causing suffering,pain and death as well as stress and discomfort during transport to innocent beautiful creatures. Doing something as bad  as eating meat just because you enjoy it is very immoral to me.
 
 " It's not "natural","normal" or "kind",
The flesh you so fancifully fry.

The meat in your mouth,
As you savour the flavour of murder."

Posted by DevWil
@Brendan said:
" @DevWil: Other animals kill each other for food constantly.  It's how the ecosystem works.  Human's overconsumption of animals due to such a large population would be the exact same for plants if we all stopped eating meat and made roomo for the whole world to be covered by farmland.  "
i don't see your point at all. yes, some animals eat other animals.  humans don't have to be like that and because we have the option not to eat animals, we should take it (imo).  if you really don't think it matters one way or another, i'll probably never change your mind. 
 
i don't really understand what you're trying to say with your final sentence. 
 
@EdIsCool: you're not wrong, sir.
Posted by Whisperkill
@DevWil: Fuck You. Take your hippy vegetarian bullshit elsewhere. 
 
People are supposed to eat meat. Its a scientific FACT. Don't push your fucking douchebag eletist ways on people who aren't like you.
Posted by TheHBK

Dude, plants do a lot more for us than animals.  Why kill them?  All living things have to eat other living things to survive.  Including plants having to take in decayed material (ie. compost and fertilizer).  We get oxygen from plants and they dont take a shit in the backyard.  Our increased brain mass and therefore ability to be more awesome than other animals comes form eating meat.

Posted by EdIsCool
@Whisperkill said:
" @DevWil: Fuck You. Take your hippy vegetarian bullshit elsewhere.  People are supposed to eat meat. Its a scientific FACT. Don't push your fucking douchebag eletist ways on people who aren't like you. "
see defensive, they know that what they do is wrong, and they really dont like being told so. Yes people are supposed to eat meat, I should also be cheating on my girlfriend multiple times a night and destroying all rivals. Due to our unique position in the animal kingdom, that of always having a surplus of calories we have developed music,politics,art. We awesome monkeys now have a choice. Do we opt in or out of killing? Millions of peopke survive without eating meat, therefore it is not necessary to eat meat.Therefore the killing of animals for meat is wrong.
Edited by DevWil
@Whisperkill:  
 
it's hard not to laugh at the poetry of someone crying out against elitism when they can't spell it.


 
@TheHBK

said:

" Dude, plants do a lot more for us than animals.  Why kill them?  All living things have to eat other living things to survive.  Including plants having to take in decayed material (ie. compost and fertilizer).  We get oxygen from plants and they dont take a shit in the backyard.  Our increased brain mass and therefore ability to be more awesome than other animals comes form eating meat. "

seriously, plants don't have central nervous systems.  i mean it.  really. 
 
i think you're mistaken about all living things needing to eat other living things to survive.  regardless, i don't see why we can't avoid eating things with brains.
Posted by skinnyman

People may have legitimate religious or health-related reasons for being vegetarian, but the "ethical" argument doesn't hold water. Why? Because just as many animals are crushed in combines while harvesting grains each year as are killed in slaughterhouses. Maddox breaks it down nicely for you here.

Edited by DevWil
@skinnyman said:

" People may have legitimate religious or health-related reasons for being vegetarian, but the "ethical" argument doesn't hold water. Why? Because just as many animals are crushed in combines while harvesting grains each year as are killed in slaughterhouses. Maddox breaks it down nicely for you here.
"

old.
 
it's not about the number of animals killed, it's about not supporting an industry that creates sentient beings just to destroy them.
 
nobody harvesting grain is willing that animals die.  animals die every day and i'm i've killed a lot of insects without knowing or willing it.  that isn't the point. 
 
maddox may ridicule the idea that vegetarians aren't willing the deaths of all these animals, but that really is the point. 
 
furthermore, the article maddox refers to doesn't cite any specific studies.  find those studies, and i'll find your argument more impressive.  maddox is certainly not one to shy away from exaggeration and i find it unlikely that i'm killing more animals by not eating meat than if i were to eat meat.
Posted by Heylook
@DevWil:
LONG THREAD IS LONG.
 
Seriously, just give up dude. I respect you, in fact I haven't had meat in about 2 weeks (not because of you, I just can't afford it right now, yay college) but man, this isn't the place for intense idiololigical debates like this. No one cares about your choices and you should know that by now. Sorry if it's frusterating but life tends to be that way, your best plan is to just accept and move on. 
 
People will always eat meat, they always have. You may not like it, I may not like it. I feel sick as shit when I watch documentaries on the matter, when I see pigs thrown and tossed by their legs into holding areas way past their limit (not that I eat pork anyway, too dirty) but I still accept that others will eat it. 
 
Would you go to a 3rd world country and ask the residents of said country to stop eating meat? No because they NEED it. 
 
tl;dr
 
I'm sorry you hate so much, but get used to it. Or kill yourself (no don't, that's silly).
Posted by MrSnow

I is a farmer.  
 
We are animals. And we are the most intelligentanimal 
 
therefore we have control of the planet and can do what we like with it. 
 Animals (less humans) are our bitch.

Edited by DevWil
@Heylook said:

" @DevWil: LONG THREAD IS LONG.  Seriously, just give up dude. I respect you, in fact I haven't had meat in about 2 weeks (not because of you, I just can't afford it right now, yay college) but man, this isn't the place for intense idiololigical debates like this. No one cares about your choices and you should know that by now. Sorry if it's frusterating but life tends to be that way, your best plan is to just accept and move on.   People will always eat meat, they always have. You may not like it, I may not like it. I feel sick as shit when I watch documentaries on the matter, when I see pigs thrown and tossed by their legs into holding areas way past their limit (not that I eat pork anyway, too dirty) but I still accept that others will eat it.   Would you go to a 3rd world country and ask the residents of said country to stop eating meat? No because they NEED it.   tl;dr  I'm sorry you hate so much, but get used to it. Or kill yourself (no don't, that's silly). "

i appreciate what you're saying, but don't misunderstand how ambitious i am.  i'm not trying to change the whole world with a giant bomb blog.  i just want people who wouldn't dream of killing a mammal themselves to re-consider if eating meat is worth inflicting the violence that they seem to be able to appreciate as undesirable. 
 
@MrSnow: 
 
i've addressed arguments like yours already, so i'll just say that--while our perspectives and values differ in core ways--you have to realize that your argument holds no water.  we don't take advantage of humans when they're physically weaker than us; we actually tend to try to care for them.  i'm not saying cow = human.  i'm saying your argument doesn't make as much sense as you think it does.
Posted by JazzyJeff

Haha, DevWil! I can't believe this thread is still going on! Keep on standing up for your beliefs, man!

Posted by LordXavierBritish
@DevWil: 
 Before I start, let me say this. I am going to refute every one of your claims and prove that nearly every form of Vegetarianism is ultimately futile and completely self-fufilling 
 
I expect a reply.
 
Ok first off, being a vegetarian because "eating animals is wrong" is stupid. That isn't why a lot of vegetarians are vegetartians. They are vegetarians because they don't approve of the inhumane treatment that animals recieve in the slaughter house or before hand. You see, eating meat it nature. That's just how it works. This happens every day: 

  
  
  
Now obviously if you are a vegetarian becuase you want to protest the meat packing industry, then I also don't care because you aren't actually doing something to stop it. Eating vegetables does not "Stick it to the Man." You aren't doing anything to help those animals, in fact you are still being as complicit as you were when you ate meat.
 
Let me restate that. 
  
VEGETARIANISM DOESN'T HELP ANIMALS 
 
Finally, plants are fucking intelligent. This isn't news, it's been known for quite awhile. Just because you can look at the face of an animal and see some similarity to your own being, that doesn't mean it has the same brain processes as you. Most animals aren't even aware of their own existence, it is a rare few that actually have even rudimentary consciousness. 
 
If you want to help animals then put down the damn veggy burger and actually do something.
Posted by Turbofirejames

People killing animals for food is what it is man.  
 
I wish people would stop killing people for no good reason. One of my former class mates just got gunned down outside of his house, no reason.... humans should be smart enough to stop that kind of violence.  
 
I dont know what diet is better for people. I dont know the morality of eating meat. For now, the only killing that bothers me is human on human.  
Edited by DevWil
@LordXavierBritish said:

" @DevWil: 
 Before I start, let me say this. I am going to refute every one of your claims and prove that nearly every form of Vegetarianism is ultimately futile and completely self-fufilling 
 
I expect a reply.
 
Ok first off, being a vegetarian because "eating animals is wrong" is stupid. That isn't why a lot of vegetarians are vegetartians. They are vegetarians because they don't approve of the inhumane treatment that animals recieve in the slaughter house or before hand. You see, eating meat it nature. That's just how it works. This happens every day: 

  

  
  
Now obviously if you are a vegetarian becuase you want to protest the meat packing industry, then I also don't care because you aren't actually doing something to stop it. Eating vegetables does not "Stick it to the Man." You aren't doing anything to help those animals, in fact you are still being as complicit as you were when you ate meat.
 
Let me restate that. 
  
VEGETARIANISM DOESN'T HELP ANIMALS 
 
Finally, plants are fucking intelligent. This isn't news, it's been known for quite awhile. Just because you can look at the face of an animal and see some similarity to your own being, that doesn't mean it has the same brain processes as you. Most animals aren't even aware of their own existence, it is a rare few that actually have even rudimentary consciousness. 
 
If you want to help animals then put down the damn veggy burger and actually do something. "
you expect a reply?  i expect someone to read a thread before commenting so confidently.  you didn't do that.  however, being how invested you seem to be, i'll answer you: 
  
yet again, someone appeals to existing carnivorous species to justify human meat-eating.  birds are animals.  birds can fly (without human technology). humans are animals.  therefore, humans can fly (without human technology).  that's the kind of logic you're using. 
 
am i personally affecting the meat industry?  it's highly unlikely that i'm affecting them in any significant way, but that's no reason for me not to be a vegetarian.  why not murder people, they're just going to die eventually anyway, right?   
 
i'm not motivated by politics; i'm motivated by ethics.  i feel like i'm a better person for not eating meat.   i don't feel like i'm single-handedly taking down the meat industry.  people will probably always eat meat.  i don't have to be party to it and i'd rather not.
 
what do you suggest i do?  i have two options: violently attack slaughterhouses (which would be ironic in a terrible way) or encourage other people to stop eating meat.  i'm doing the latter.  if you want to attack vegetarians who never talk about it for not doing anything to help the world, go ahead.  i've very nearly been doing that myself in these threads about vegetarianism.
 
plants are not intelligent.  reacting to stimuli does not necessarily denote intelligence.   feel free to correct me, but i think that even comatose persons still retain their reflexes (when tapped in the knee, etc).  i believe (but i'm not well-versed enough in biology to say so authoritatively) that such reactions are handled by your spine.  your spine isn't what makes you an intelligent being.
 
computers can react to input as well, but that doesn't make them worthy of ethical consideration.  if you'd been more responsible, you'd have linked me to this article. the blog you sent me to is a piece of a longer article that cites the article that i've just provided.  the article basically just explains how plants have self-defense mechanisms.   
 
so what?  practically any living thing that has survived hundreds or thousands of years as a species does.  to use the computer comparison again: if your computer has anti-virus or anti-malware software, you don't take formatting the hard drive into ethical consideration.
 
there's no intelligence to these processes, though; they are biological reactions on a much simpler level than anything considered intelligent.   
 
if you have an allergy and are exposed to that allergen and then your skin breaks out into a rash: that was not intelligence.  if it was up to your intelligence, you wouldn't have that allergic reaction at all!   
 
plants do not have intelligence.  they have genetic traits that are expressed in evolutionarily advantageous characteristics.  these characteristics are no more intelligent than your ability to grow hair. 
 
your computer doesn't have an intelligent reaction when you scratch its case.  a blade of grass doesn't feel anything when you mow your lawn.  however, a typical mammal, when cut with a knife while still alive, has a reaction that is indisputably similar to what a human feels when they are cut.  i'm not saying that animals necessarily suffer when they're killed for meat (as i do understand that there are relatively humane ways of ending their lives); i'm saying that animals are more like humans than meat-eaters are willing to admit.  because of that, we should be able to be compassionate and not wish that they be created just to be violently destroyed (humanely or not). 
 
meat-eaters are quick to defend their lifestyle (as an animal) with examples of carnivorous animals, but when approached with the fact that most animals they eat have a nervous system comparable to our own (with nerve endings and, more commonly than you'd probably assume, emotions), they'll hear nothing of it. 
 
does my own vegetarianism help animals?  maybe not.  but it doesn't actively hurt animals and meat-eating indisputably does.  furthermore, if 5% of the population doesn't eat meat, that's that many fewer animals that are killed for the sake of human consumption.
 
i'm interested in reading your response.

@Turbofirejames said:

" People killing animals for food is what it is man.   I wish people would stop killing people for no good reason. One of my former class mates just got gunned down outside of his house, no reason.... humans should be smart enough to stop that kind of violence.   I dont know what diet is better for people. I dont know the morality of eating meat. For now, the only killing that bothers me is human on human.   "

maybe if, as a society, we were more opposed to violence towards all animals, we'd be less inclined to hurt other humans.
Posted by Cube

Oh beat it to fucking death, stop bumping this hopeless shit 
 
wait

Posted by ninjakiller

This thread is shit, vegetarians are preachy pussies, lock it already.

Edited by DevWil
@ninjakiller said:

" This thread is shit, vegetarians are preachy pussies, lock it already. "

i'm sure Georges Laraque would have an interesting reaction if you called him a pussy.  considering he made a video for PETA, you could call him preachy, too!
 
if this thread is locked, i'll be very disappointed in the GB mods.  it's a real, constructive debate that i think i've kept respectful for the most part.  if it devolves into "you're a shit person, meat eater" and "you're a pussy faggot, veggieboy", sure, consider locking it down.  it's not even in the wrong forum like the thread that someone made in response to this, and that one isn't locked.  this one has gone hundreds of comments without a lock or warning, and i hope for the sake of responsible discourse that doesn't change. 
 
also, if you really want this thread to die, don't comment on it.  except for posting a link to a medical journal explaining how vegetarians can be perfectly healthy, i haven't bumped this blog once.  i've simply been reacting to other users' comments.
Posted by habster3

This thread has led to nothing but anger from vegetarians, and this is coming from someone who hates veggies. This has gone on for way too long. This should be locked.

Posted by DevWil
@habster3 said:
" This thread has led to nothing but anger from vegetarians, and this is coming from someone who hates veggies. This has gone on for way too long. This should be locked. "
it's led to awareness and constructive debate.  more than one person has told me, either in the thread or in a PM, that i have made them consider the issue more deeply. 
 
when this becomes a pissing match, maybe it'll deserve a lock.  we're not there yet.  my second-to-last post was addressing a brand new point: if plants are intelligent because they have reactions.  if new, relevant points are still coming up, the thread certainly still deserves to exist.  

and, again, if your only comment is "Lock it.", PM a mod rather than bump the thread.
Posted by ninjakiller
@DevWil said:
" @ninjakiller said:

" This thread is shit, vegetarians are preachy pussies, lock it already. "

i'm sure Georges Laraque would have an interesting reaction if you called him a pussy.  considering he made a video for PETA, you could call him preachy, too!
 
if this thread is locked, i'll be very disappointed in the GB mods.  it's a real, constructive debate that i think i've kept respectful for the most part.  if it devolves into "you're a shit person, meat eater" and "you're a pussy faggot, veggieboy", sure, consider locking it down.  it's not even in the wrong forum like the thread that someone made in response to this, and that one isn't locked.  this one has gone hundreds of comments without a lock or warning, and i hope for the sake of responsible discourse that doesn't change.  also, if you really want this thread to die, don't comment on it.  except for posting a link to a medical journal explaining how vegetarians can be perfectly healthy, i haven't bumped this blog once.  i've simply been reacting to other users' comments. "
Hockey?   Why doesn't he just take up ballet and get it over with?
Posted by LordXavierBritish
@DevWil: 
May  I say, your ignorance of basic human biology is pretty astounding. Humans are built to eat meat. That is a fact. If we were meant to not eat meat we wouldn't have a set of canine teeth and our bodies would reject flesh. My logic is completely sound, your thinly vield excuse is akin to the work of a mad evangelist. 
  
Oh, and please feel free to insult me all you like when it comes to my refrencing, but I figured you'd be clever enough to find the larger article on your own. 
 
First off, plants actively try to survive. They react to their evirnoments and communicate with each other. That's about all a majority of animals do. Intelligence by your description is something that has only been observed in primates and some other mammals. If you want to talk about emotions, then I care even less. Even our emtions are simply chemical reactions brought about by the events we experience. What seperates us from animals is cognition, as I said before, and it is a very rare occurence and definetly does not occur with the common barn yard crew like cows, pigs, and chickens. 
 
Also, plants do have a nervous system.They couldn't respond to the environment without one. It is actually far more sensitive than the human nervous system, and while it may not be as complex as our own plants are capable of feeling a sesnation similar to pain. 
 
Another point, meat-eaters like myself are hurting animals just as much as you. Even if I stopped today, nothing would change. If 1,000 people stopped today, nothing would change. I can keep eating meat and still fight for humane treatment of animals if I want to, being a vegetarian is just a self-fuffling excuse to make people feel better instead of getting up and doing something. Trying to convince people to be Vegetarian isn't helping any animals.  
 
Another thing, you wouldn't even be alive if your ancestors hadn't eaten meat. Vegetarianism is a phenomenon that only occurs within a civilization of at least rudimentary status. Vegitarians cannot even exist without agriculutre and food surpluses, this is a fact. All humans were at one point hunter-gathers and we had to kill animals to survive. That is instinct, that is nature.
 
Let's just face facts, because this is what it comes down to; there is absolutely no scientific or historic basis that justifies Vegetarianism. Vegetarians are people that throw out scientific concepts they only have a loose understanding of because they like to play make believe and pretend that animals can operate on a similar mental and emotional level that we do. 
 
That is complete and total horse shit. 
 
You said it yourself, it makes you feel better, and tha'ts all it is. 
 
Vegetarianism goes against nature, goes against science, and it contributes nothing but bullshit fanatics to soceity. It's a disease that has consumed this new wave of liberal ignorance who use shit like Vegetarianism to take a moral high ground on issues they know nothing about so that they can feel smarter than any one else. 
 
I'm a human, and I eat meat. I'm a person, and I care about animal cruelty. I can be both of those things because I have dedicated the time and energy to actually learning about the world I live in instead of grabbing on to the closest feel good wagon. 
 
And for the record, I read the fucking thread.
Posted by ArchScabby

Where would all those cows live if we didn't eat meat?  WHERE?!!  They would be everywhere, and they would want revenge. BLOOD THIRSTY COWS MAN!  It would be like the fucking zombie apocalypse except with cows!  OH MY GOD! I'll be right back I'm going to go buy as much steak as I can.

Edited by DevWil
@LordXavierBritish said:

" @DevWil: May  I say, your ignorance of basic human biology is pretty astounding. Humans are built to eat meat. That is a fact. If we were meant to not eat meat we wouldn't have a set of canine teeth and our bodies would reject flesh. My logic is completely sound, your thinly vield excuse is akin to the work of a mad evangelist.   Oh, and please feel free to insult me all you like when it comes to my refrencing, but I figured you'd be clever enough to find the larger article on your own.  First off, plants actively try to survive. They react to their evirnoments and communicate with each other. That's about all a majority of animals do. Intelligence by your description is something that has only been observed in primates and some other mammals. If you want to talk about emotions, then I care even less. Even our emtions are simply chemical reactions brought about by the events we experience. What seperates us from animals is cognition, as I said before, and it is a very rare occurence and definetly does not occur with the common barn yard crew like cows, pigs, and chickens.  Also, plants do have a nervous system.They couldn't respond to the environment without one. It is actually far more sensitive than the human nervous system, and while it may not be as complex as our own plants are capable of feeling a sesnation similar to pain.  Another point, meat-eaters like myself are hurting animals just as much as you. Even if I stopped today, nothing would change. If 1,000 people stopped today, nothing would change. I can keep eating meat and still fight for humane treatment of animals if I want to, being a vegetarian is just a self-fuffling excuse to make people feel better instead of getting up and doing something. Trying to convince people to be Vegetarian isn't helping any animals.   Another thing, you wouldn't even be alive if your ancestors hadn't eaten meat. Vegetarianism is a phenomenon that only occurs within a civilization of at least rudimentary status. Vegitarians cannot even exist without agriculutre and food surpluses, this is a fact. All humans were at one point hunter-gathers and we had to kill animals to survive. That is instinct, that is nature. Let's just face facts, because this is what it comes down to; there is absolutely no scientific or historic basis that justifies Vegetarianism. Vegetarians are people that throw out scientific concepts they only have a loose understanding of because they like to play make believe and pretend that animals can operate on a similar mental and emotional level that we do.  That is complete and total horse shit.  You said it yourself, it makes you feel better, and tha'ts all it is.  Vegetarianism goes against nature, goes against science, and it contributes nothing but bullshit fanatics to soceity. It's a disease that has consumed this new wave of liberal ignorance who use shit like Vegetarianism to take a moral high ground on issues they know nothing about so that they can feel smarter than any one else.  I'm a human, and I eat meat. I'm a person, and I care about animal cruelty. I can be both of those things because I have dedicated the time and energy to actually learning about the world I live in instead of grabbing on to the closest feel good wagon.  And for the record, I read the fucking thread. "


 "Humans are built to eat meat." 
 
No.  Humans are able to eat meat.  You're claiming that because we can, we must.  I'm able to steal a shotgun and shoot someone in the head.  I'm not going to, because I find it unethical.  I don't steal and I don't shoot people in the head with shotguns.  Those aren't controversial values.
 
My argument against your logic isn't mad; it's logic.  Your argument is not logically sound.  That's all I can say.  You and other meat-eaters keep acting like you have logic on your side, but if you actually boiled it down to the facts about human biology and used real logic, you would be surprised.  I'm not simply using the word 'logic' like some 16-year-old atheist trying to prove a Christian wrong; I've studied the subject and I know what I'm talking about.
 
Half of what you're saying in this post you already said in the previous and I'm not going to address it again.  You took it a step further to include cognition in your argument, which is fine, but it doesn't make my position invalid in the slightest.  I'm not appealing to our similarities to animals on the basis that humans can write and understand language.  I'm appealing to fundamental biological truths about mammalian nervous systems (as most meat that humans eat is mammalian, I believe).  Birds have similar nervous systems as well.  If you really think you have biology on your side, find some studies that prove me wrong.  You seem like you care enough to.
 
Boycotting something makes you not responsible for its existence.  I don't buy ad time during the Super Bowl, I don't watch football, and I don't buy NFL merchandise.  Therefore, I'm not responsible for the NFL's existence.  This isn't a meaningless comparison.  Again, I can't single-handedly take down the meat industry any better than I can take down the NFL (not that I'd like to).  I can, however, single-handedly not be responsible for it.  I feel like I'm going over the same points over and over and  I don't know why I have to.
 
If 1 person boycotts the meat industry, it doesn't make an appreciable dent.  I'll concede that any day of the week.  However, when you say that if 1,000 people wouldn't make a difference, you sound like you aren't even thinking about what you're saying.  Any effort makes some difference, significant or not.  As soon as you start increasing the number of people not supporting a product/business/etc, the impact becomes greater.  I don't see what's controversial about this.  According to you, there's some magic number that makes vegetarianism matter once its subscribers are that number in population.  Is it when 73,000 people stop eating meat?  152,000?  2 million?  3 billion? 
 
How did Modern Warfare 2 break video game sales records?  A lot of individuals bought it.  How does vegetarianism affect the meat industry?  When a bunch of individuals subscribe to it.  This shouldn't be a contentious point at all.  I asked you for a suggestion to affect the meat industry and you didn't give me one.  It doesn't seem like you're actually listening to what I'm saying. 
 
If you want to be a strict materialist and tell me that everything is simply a chemical reaction and its complexity doesn't make a difference in how we understand and interact with the world around us, I'll listen to what you have to say, but I'll also stay far away from you because a strict materialist doesn't value life as anything but a sort of bio-electricity.  I have materialist leanings myself, but at some point our human nature precludes us from seeing the world in strictly materialist ways.  I'm not telling you that you have a soul; I'm saying that we don't value things purely based on their chemical composition. (Edit: I'm also not saying you're a bad person and therefore don't have a soul, I'm talking about dualism versus materialism)
 
You did get one thing correct: my ancestors ate meat.  My parents both still eat meat.  It's irrelevant.  If one of your parents kills someone, I'm not going to hold you responsible.  I hold myself responsible for my actions, which includes whether or not I eat meat.  I think the moral implications of eating meat outweigh the convenience, so I don't do it.  In 2010, eating meat is far from necessary.  It hasn't been necessary for a very long time.
 
You say that not eating meat goes against nature.  So what?  Building houses goes against nature; that doesn't mean it's bad.  Speaking a language, writing music, exploring non-violent solutions, and so many other things that humans can be proud of go against nature.  Stop wearing clothes, using money, using language, or doing anything but gathering food you can acquire with your bare hands if you want to champion nature so strictly (and notice that plants put up much less of a fight than most animals).  Go reproduce without consent or sentimentality if you think we're just brutal animals who need not answer to anything but primal urges.
 
Vegetarianism goes against science?  How?  Dietitians recognize vegetarianism (as well as veganism) as a healthy diet.  Red meat is strongly associated with colon cancer and I can speak to a case supporting that association: my uncle ate a lot of red meat and died from colon cancer fairly early (not that one incidence proves a theory).  Every time you eat red meat, I can easily (and more successfully) argue that you're the one going against science.  
 
No historical support for vegetarianism?  What does that even mean?  Historical support?  There are centuries-old vegetarian cultures.  I don't know what you're even trying to say.
 
I'd consider saying more, but there's no chance that you're changing your mind.  I shouldn't have even said this much.  Feel free to continue the debate, but I'm not going to repeat myself.
Edited by Broitman

I'm not really wanting to jump into this conversation I just want to correct a misconception I've seen in said this thread a few times now.  

I've seen a lot of people on both sides use bears as an example of carnivores but in fact most bears (polar bears are mainly carnivorous but barren tundra will do that) are omnivores eating plants (mainly berries if I remember correctly), bugs, honey, and yes of course meat. Their diet changes depending of course on season and region and during their preparation for hibernation the eat mainly meat because they need to store fat but the point remains that they are not strict carnivores but rather omnivores. 
 
As for my own preference well I like meat and always have but that choice is mine and I can definitely understand where others are coming from with their own dietary habits.

Posted by AlwaysAngry

I like steak so rare, it moos at me. 
 
 
You're not going to change that.