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Posted by TheMasterDS
@ajamafalous: Well I went on a trip for around a week and got a tiny bit of work done last week, and when I got back I felt lazy and ended up getting Starcraft II and Hydro Thunder and played a bunch of them instead of TF2, lowering my drive to make TF2 stuff. This happens at times. Basically the middle point is pretty much layed out and looking decent enough aside from an odd issue that makes the water not render from above. Hadn't started on the base yet, partially because I have some doubts about its design, but mainly because of the games I've been playing.  
 
Hopefully I'll get around to it sooner or latter, but for now it's on hold more or less.
Posted by ajamafalous
@TheMasterDS: Curious, how's the map coming along?
Posted by Belonpopo
@TheMasterDS:  Just build Bespin's loading platforms from  Star Wars: Battlefront, instant god status.
Posted by c1337us

My head is exploding try to interpret this into an actual place. I don't play TF2 anymore but good luck with it.

Posted by TheMasterDS
@ajamafalous: Yeah, looking at the scale I'm definitely gonna have to lower the size of the CP relative to the map. I just like a big CP when sketching because it looks real nice, I've got very little sense of scale when it comes to the CP. As for the water, it really depends. A lot of it is shallow and is more for swampy effect, but the water by the shack in the later sketches is deep enough for a small swim into the shack. As for cover, the three big circles are meant to represent ridiculously tall pier sticks that provide cover. As for the rest, I've been adding in cover, and one of the ideas was that the pier paths leading in have a solid patch underneath them breaking up the map a bit. I've also added a truck and a building off to the right to break up the flow some more that you can see here. 
 
I've also gone and changed the structure of the base from the last version made in Google Docs by removing the hallway completely and replacing it with a small rooftop area that ties into the other rooftop, and a narrow path down planks past a right door of the Right Spawn and to where the stairs came in. Again, this is from the later draft.
 
Also, this seems like a good a time as any to mention that I've been looking at the name of said mode, which I'd previously taken to calling Advantage, prefix being adv, to stress the importance of gaining and maintaining an advantage. In such a gametype you have the option to fall back and take the hit on the clock and simply hold your final point for the remainder of the time, focusing solely on defense. However, guys I've talked to about the name have pointed out how it sorta clashes with other gametype names. I've thought about it, and spent some time coming up with alternate names, such as Ignition (As in "Ignition in 5... 4.... 3..."), but the one I'm going with is Timeline, which prefixes to tl. There are several reasons this is a good idea, one  time is right in the name, two timeline in a war sense means (to my ears anyway) a dedicated plan for ending warfare, which is what the timers effectively do. Three, if the story for all these maps ends up being "They each send rocket propelled bombs at each other on the same zipline and they collide and break and they have to restart their ignition sequence" than the name gets another shot of goodness from the Line part of the title.
Posted by hedfone

owww shit my head

Posted by ajamafalous

The central area seems kinda small and coverless. Also, how deep is the water?

Posted by LordRupertEverton

Ill have to get this when you release it. Best of luck!

Posted by Ferginator4k

Looks awesome.

Posted by s7evn

I read the title and thought of the Thunderdome, so yeah, you should make a KotH Thunderdome map. 2 teams enter, 1 team leaves!!!!!

Posted by Dziggy

In a PM to me, you said that you added a hallway connected to the spawn rooms to prevent spawn camping, but I can't tell which halls these are. For the L Spawn, I'm guessing it's the gray rooms. The size of the map is kind of hard to judge with everything in your images being scattered, and there being multiple floors. Just make sure there are a few different ways to get to each point, but also make sure it isn't too complex. The map should be pretty easy to memorize, so people know where they're going, and can make a strategy. You don't want people to feel like they're just randomly wandering around your map, hoping they're not running in a circle, or not knowing where they'll end up.
 
Looks pretty good so far. If you can, give us some screenshots when you have enough of it made to give us an idea of how everything will be laid out.

Posted by TheMasterDS

I've been working on the map, and have come to a version I think will be the one I start to build. Here's the base and here's half the center point. I didn't feel like copying all the objects and flipping them, so you'll have to use your imagination a bit. As before, darker shades indicate higher areas and whenever I want to indicate a path goes under something without pulling it out to the side I use an arrow going under the object in question.  
 
Also, let me just explain a few things about the intricacies of the map that might not come off that well in the drawings. First the old way into the shed (The building in the lower right hand corner of the central area) is by swimming into it. Second, the piers (The wooden platforms flaking the point and the edges of the central area) are very high and have some impenetrable areas below them to break up the land. You might've noticed the arrow under it, but that was to indicate that there's a path under it at the far edge of the map good for coming around and getting to the point from the other side. Third, after playing 6 hours of prop hunt I added a bunch of boxes and barrels to the map to liven up some spaces. Please excuse the crudity of their representation, I didn't have time to draw them to scale. Also, the scale might be totally off because I have a crap eye for scale. Anyone want to comment on the size of the map judging by the Control Points or Doors? 
 
Finally, looking at the map I realize that the left staircase is totally overpowered as a route as it doesn't really wind and comes up in a place where no one but a camping guy, possibly an engie, would be. But since they'd have to either climb the crates that are pretty far out to get there, its not fair to expect people to be able to confront guys going up the left stairs. I'm adding stairs leading up to there on my paper version to increase the possibility that guys will populate that area.
 
Usually guys will spawn at either the Left or Right Spawn, but the Forward Spawn is there for when they have all the points. Anyone have any quick suggestions before I start building it?

Posted by TheMasterDS
@Dziggy: Yeah, the idea was to indicate that they lead into the base. I had decided to go ahead and post the topic before I sketched out the base in Google Docs because I wasn't sure what the base would look like exactly. Since the Tested Version of this blog got some posts however, I've sketched out the base real fast to get feedback on that design. 
 

 Here's basically what I had for BLU again with a few changes here and there. A lot of the changes probably fly in the face of anything I learned about managing room heights when trying to build a complex 2 to 3 story building, but still. There should probably be a hole in the ceiling of the center entryway to make that area slightly more accessible and the highest hallway needs a little more purpose, but it's better than nothing I think. The changes I've made go like this. First off I've made the entry way wider to make it more like the 2Fort entry way which is a solid location for fighting. Two, I've extended the stairs in the main room to stretch farther to increase the time it takes to climb them. Four I've made was once a ramp a stairwell. Five I've made the right spawn empty downward into the main point instead of into the higher hallway/a passage that leads to the higher hallway, and that's about all the major changes from the last version of it 7 months ago.
 

    

Thoughts anyone?     
That version's a little hard to make out, here's a full version uploaded elsewhere. I think I'll go back in and start improving that design now though.
Posted by Dziggy

That sounds like a really great concept for a map. I agree with your comments on control point and KOTH maps, and this sounds like a very nice way to combine the two. The map layout looks really good to me. Somewhat simple, yet it would allow for a lot of different strategies for taking control and defending each point. I like how the center point is open, which means it's really going to be a struggle to keep control of it. That should keep the action going and make the games fast-paced and more interesting. 
 
I don't see the other two capture points on the map, but I'm assuming they'd be each team's building. For the health and ammo, I'd say you should just wait until you can play on the map, then test out some different strategies you think will be used, and put them where you think they'd be useful and balanced. And I noticed that the building in the top-right and lower-left corners have paths leading out of them, the opposite direction of the center point. Do those lead somewhere?
 
Again, it looks like a very nice map, and I'd love to play on it. When you get a playable version of it made, I'd be happy to help you test it and give you feedback.

Posted by TheMasterDS

So a while back I came up with an idea for a mode which combined the merits of CP and KotH maps and fixed a few of the problems I perceived with them. I sketched out several maps, and over Christmas I started building a map which would prove the mode in Hammer. It came together well across around two weeks in terms of structure and, to a certain degree, appearance. However, after Christmas my Harddrive failed and I lost all progress I had made on the map. I was playing less TF2 at that point and I really didn't feel like going in and starting over at that time. However, since getting back into TF2 for the Engineer Update, I've been thinking about the map and I've decided to give it another go.
 
So then, this mode was designed to resolve the problems with CP and KOTH that I perceived. In CP maps the problem is that too much of the time it devolved to a struggle over the middle 3 points where rarely will the attacking team manage to take the last point and win the game. Like in CP_BlackMesa, which I am quite fond of, the middle three points mearly change hands countless times across the course of 30 minutes. And while one team may be doing better, unless they manage to take that last point from the other they'll have nothing to prove it with. Meanwhile I think KoTH isn't dynamic enough. Basically, you're either trying to defend a single solitary spot or you're trying to take that single solitary spot and force them off it. There's a single set of entrances and exits and never an event where you say "I have to push forward now that I've done X." In KOTH, when you've done X, you've finished! Now all that's left is to sit down and see how long you can sit. 
 
Basically it works like this. Two countdowns are always counting down from say, 3 to 5 minutes. However, capture the middle point and you add 30 seconds to the other teams timer. Capture all 3 points, and only your timer ticks down. That's about it really. Simple, but I believe it rewards a team which manages to dominate their enemy consistently and encourages pushing for the team that's behind because if they do not push to the 3rd point they will lose.
 
I figure such a mode would have to have points which are easy enough to capture, but tricky to defend. That's the reasoning I have for the design of the central point I've done justice in Google Docs for this post. It's loosely based on the central point of CP_BlackMesa. The shade of the color indicates the height and the color sorta indicates material for some reason. Also, for what its worth, I'm currently going with a swamp motif for the map, with one side having a big laboratory and the other having the kind of wooden mansion you would expect to be haunted.
 

I've changed up the design since 7 odd months ago mind, in a lot of little ways, but it has most of the same ideas. There probably should be more cover in a few places, and I've forgotten where I wanted the health and ammo, but still I like a lot about this design. 
 
The part I never really got down I think was the base, though it probably went through more design changes than the outside did. In theory, I believed that if the local team were to be expected to reclaim the control point, their spawns should be positioned on opposite ends of the base and have access to enough paths such that they could attack from anywhere to reclaim it. I was never able to figure out how exactly such a base should look, though I won't say I wasn't close. 
 
So that's basically it. I'm starting building it soon, but I'd really like to nail down the design of the map before I start this time and get the base right.  Also, I wanted to see what folk though of the design and the idea.