From the looks of things, nothing new is being discussed here as the arguments from both sides are getting repetitive, and what isn't repetitive is beginning to turn into a bit of a flame-fest.

Regardless, there's no need for this discussion to continue at this point. Better to stem this off then let it degenerate into full-on flaming and console fanboyism.

@haggis said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@haggis said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

Very poor attempt at avoiding reality for a third time. Extremely poor attempt at attacking my maturity too. Reality is. Your argument isn't. It's really THAT FUCKING SIMPLE.

You're not even making sense. Willing my opinion to go away isn't an argument. It's childish. But then, that's par for the course in my interactions with you on these forums. Here's some reality: my experiences on PSN were largely the same as on Xbox Live when it came to disruptive users. Deny it if you want, but you'll be denying reality. When you prove it wasn't true of my experiences, then come back and chat. I'm not making any earth-shattering claims here: make of it what you will. I expect more proof than a reference to a YouTube video.

You're sidestepping one of the most popular franchises on XBOX Live, nay online, to justify your opinion. As I said you can't just said supplant your blinkered view of reality and call it reality just to justify your opinion.

What in the hell are you talking about? "Sidestepping one of the most popular franchises"? I'm not giving an opinion, SeriouslyNow. I only said that I experienced the same level of disruption on both services in the games I played. I made no other claims. I already said that I have no opinion about which service was worst in this regard, only that in my experience I didn't see it go one way or the other. I have no idea what you're on about.

EDIT: You clearly think I'm saying something that I'm not. Go back and read what I wrote.

I haven't found Live to be any worse that PSN, but then I never played Halo online.

It's not relevant whether you've played it or not (which btw is probably utter bullshit - everyone has played Halo on a XBOX or 360 at some point) - the fact remains that it's one of the consistently played games online period and HALO KID is reflective of its community. You are supplanting some distorted view of reality with what's really going on to support some baseless argument.

@MideonNViscera said:

@haggis said:

@MideonNViscera: Yeah, I don't know why I keep going on like this with him. I ought to just ignore it.

He'll just show up again sometime down the road though. He has some weird knack for sucking you into a huge debate over something insignificant, and acting as if the fate of the universe depends on it.

"haha"

Hell yeah, another one of these threads! They're great because you get gems like "XBL doesn't cost Microsoft any money to run" which is pretty hilarious. You go ahead and create a massive network of servers with matchmaking software (and support it) and release regular firmware updates that actually change things for the better. Tell me how free that is for you to do. Granted, they are charging more for it than it costs them to run, but that is true with any product ever. Soft drinks at McDonalds cost them like 2 cents to give you. This is America.

I pay for XBL because it's a good service. Good enough that it's worth my $50/year even though Sony's is free. Yes, I'd like XBL better if it were free. I'd also like it if gasoline were free.

(On the other hand. It's absolute bullshit that the dashboard is plastered with ads even though I pay them.)

@MideonNViscera: Yeah, I don't know why I keep going on like this with him. I ought to just ignore it.

The choice is free or not 
I like free personally

@SeriouslyNow said:

@haggis said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

Very poor attempt at avoiding reality for a third time. Extremely poor attempt at attacking my maturity too. Reality is. Your argument isn't. It's really THAT FUCKING SIMPLE.

You're not even making sense. Willing my opinion to go away isn't an argument. It's childish. But then, that's par for the course in my interactions with you on these forums. Here's some reality: my experiences on PSN were largely the same as on Xbox Live when it came to disruptive users. Deny it if you want, but you'll be denying reality. When you prove it wasn't true of my experiences, then come back and chat. I'm not making any earth-shattering claims here: make of it what you will. I expect more proof than a reference to a YouTube video.

You're sidestepping one of the most popular franchises on XBOX Live, nay online, to justify your opinion. As I said you can't just said supplant your blinkered view of reality and call it reality just to justify your opinion.

What in the hell are you talking about? "Sidestepping one of the most popular franchises"? I'm not giving an opinion, SeriouslyNow. I only said that I experienced the same level of disruption on both services in the games I played. I made no other claims. I already said that I have no opinion about which service was worst in this regard, only that in my experience I didn't see it go one way or the other. I have no idea what you're on about.
 
EDIT: You clearly think I'm saying something that I'm not. Go back and read what I wrote.

no excuse (especially when they still have ads...) they just want extra money 
extras like netflix and other werent around from the beginning 

@haggis said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

Very poor attempt at avoiding reality for a third time. Extremely poor attempt at attacking my maturity too. Reality is. Your argument isn't. It's really THAT FUCKING SIMPLE.

You're not even making sense. Willing my opinion to go away isn't an argument. It's childish. But then, that's par for the course in my interactions with you on these forums. Here's some reality: my experiences on PSN were largely the same as on Xbox Live when it came to disruptive users. Deny it if you want, but you'll be denying reality. When you prove it wasn't true of my experiences, then come back and chat. I'm not making any earth-shattering claims here: make of it what you will. I expect more proof than a reference to a YouTube video.

You're sidestepping one of the most popular franchises on XBOX Live, nay online, to justify your opinion. As I said you can't just said supplant your blinkered view of reality and call it reality just to justify your opinion.

I really don't mind it. I am paying for a level of reliability that I don't seem to get from any other company. Sure sometimes games have rough launch days, but everyone is going to run into that problem every once in a while.

 I just play whenever I want  

People continue to pay for it, so MS will continue to charge for it.  it's really stupid because you're the one paying for internet and hooking it up to your Xbox, just like you would to your PC, but then out of nowhere there's this extra fee that goes to MS just because they know they can get away with it.  Look at PSN, look at Steam, they all do the same things with friends and chat, it's not super crazy and new nowadays.  I don't pay for XBL anymore, I just play PS3 online and I like it.  I just play whenever I want, wherever I want, there's no stupid subscription fee.  

They're all gonna laugh at you.

@haggis said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

Very poor attempt at avoiding reality for a third time. Extremely poor attempt at attacking my maturity too. Reality is. Your argument isn't. It's really THAT FUCKING SIMPLE.

You're not even making sense. Willing my opinion to go away isn't an argument. It's childish. But then, that's par for the course in my interactions with you on these forums. Here's some reality: my experiences on PSN were largely the same as on Xbox Live when it came to disruptive users. Deny it if you want, but you'll be denying reality. When you prove it wasn't true of my experiences, then come back and chat. I'm not making any earth-shattering claims here: make of it what you will. I expect more proof than a reference to a YouTube video.

You're sidestepping one of the most popular franchises on XBOX Live, nay online, to justify your opinion. As I said you can't just said supplant your blinkered view of reality and call it reality just to justify your opinion.

Actually the first line was a question, then I went on to make fun of your overprotective attitude towards MMOs and KOREA haha 
 
So it was actually you who sidestepped the real debate. 
 
EDIT: Also, are you ever not online? I go away for hours, reply, and you magically appear within seconds hahah

@MideonNViscera said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@MideonNViscera said:

@MysteriousBob said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@MideonNViscera said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@MideonNViscera said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

LOL @ Console players arguing over which service is best. PC gamers have LOTS of services to choose from and lots of destinations to get demos, media, games and information and most of them are free.

Yes, but most of us don't wanna play on PC.

MMOs, the largest market yet.

Yeah, and they take ridiculous amounts of time and effort. I will give WoW props for keeping it simple so everyone's computer can run it nowadays though.

WoW is a fucking drop in the ocean compared all of the K-MMOs in the wild.

I'd rather take sandpaper to my eyeballs than play any MMOs. The PC can have its crappy exclusive genres, I've got fighting games to play.

Ya know, I got to 48 in Everquest when 50 was the cap, I got to 60 in WoW when that was the cap, and I played DAoC and EQ2 both a fair bit. They were all exactly the same, for all intents and purposes. I absolutely cannot imagine an MMO that would persuade me to not only buy it, but buy a computer to run it, and then pay monthly to play it. If there's a genre in existence that truly needs a redefinition, it is the MMO. Until then, I'll stick to fighting games with you haha

So you played generic MMO A, B and C? WoW, you're brave and so well informed on the state of game development. Quick, better run to generic fighter X, Y and z where that $10/month 'saving' has gone into development and really evolved those fighting games SO MUCH FURTHER than every other genre in 20 years. Fighters : the most evolved genre in ALL gaming ever.

haha Where are these non-generic MMOs you imply exist actually coming from? Oh wait, lemme guess, KOREA?! Somebody loves his KOREAN MMO's a little too much. Do you maybe live in KOREA? Isn't there some amazingly ground-breaking yet disturbingly obsessive KOREAN website you should be on instead? BTW, you don't know where I'm from any more than I know you're from KOREA. For the record, that's not at all. You are hilarious though. KOREA

I talk facts and you fall once again into troll mode haha. You are definitely an ignorant troll haha.

Very poor attempt at avoiding reality for a third time. Extremely poor attempt at attacking my maturity too. Reality is. Your argument isn't. It's really THAT FUCKING SIMPLE.

@MideonNViscera: Actually you're just coming off like a prick.

@MideonNViscera said:

@MysteriousBob said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@MideonNViscera said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@MideonNViscera said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

LOL @ Console players arguing over which service is best. PC gamers have LOTS of services to choose from and lots of destinations to get demos, media, games and information and most of them are free.

Yes, but most of us don't wanna play on PC.

MMOs, the largest market yet.

Yeah, and they take ridiculous amounts of time and effort. I will give WoW props for keeping it simple so everyone's computer can run it nowadays though.

WoW is a fucking drop in the ocean compared all of the K-MMOs in the wild.

I'd rather take sandpaper to my eyeballs than play any MMOs. The PC can have its crappy exclusive genres, I've got fighting games to play.

Ya know, I got to 48 in Everquest when 50 was the cap, I got to 60 in WoW when that was the cap, and I played DAoC and EQ2 both a fair bit. They were all exactly the same, for all intents and purposes. I absolutely cannot imagine an MMO that would persuade me to not only buy it, but buy a computer to run it, and then pay monthly to play it. If there's a genre in existence that truly needs a redefinition, it is the MMO. Until then, I'll stick to fighting games with you haha

So you played generic MMO A, B and C? WoW, you're brave and so well informed on the state of game development. Quick, better run to generic fighter X, Y and z where that $10/month 'saving' has gone into development and really evolved those fighting games SO MUCH FURTHER than every other genre in 20 years. Fighters : the most evolved genre in ALL gaming ever.

I don't know I pay for it and I feel its worth it. Just for party chat alone.

@haggis said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@haggis said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

So basically you choose to ignore reality and have an opinion based what you choose not to see which everyone else, including the media (HALO KID/CHOCOLATE MILK) recognises as reality. Saying something is your own experience is fine and dandy but arguing against reality because you choose to ignore reality and calling that your own experience as if it's some evidence that your point of view holds any merit really isn't ok. It's not even crazy. It's just plain old blinkered bullshit. Bullshit yourself all you want but don't expect other people to agree with you.

Nice overreaction there, SeriouslyNow. Apparently I'm only allowed to have an opinion based on your experience, and not my own. That's blinkered bullshit. If you don't like what I say, that's fine, but your going to need to grow up someday and realize that other people have different experiences and opinions that are valid whether or not you like them.

Not MY experience. The broader experience. I mentioned the media and Halo Kid for a reason. Don't try and use my wording, structure and style in a false accusation you shape against me by, once again, ignoring reality and supplanting your own.

I never even tried to make a broad generalization about Xbox Live, I only said that my experiences have been the same on both consoles. I'm not arguing against anything, just sharing my experience. You object because my experience doesn't jibe with what you think the "broader experience" is. I must therefore be delusional, according to you ("choose not to see which everyone else ...recognises is reality"). You're not making an argument. You're saying my experience is somehow invalid because it doesn't conform to what you think reality is. There is no global hive mind, SeriouslyNow. We all have different experiences. They aren't somehow illegitimate because they are different one from the other. That is the reality: disagreement. Learn to accept it without taking it personally. In other words: grow up.

Very poor attempt at avoiding reality for a third time. Extremely poor attempt at attacking my maturity too. Reality is. Your argument isn't. It's really THAT FUCKING SIMPLE.

@haggis said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

So basically you choose to ignore reality and have an opinion based what you choose not to see which everyone else, including the media (HALO KID/CHOCOLATE MILK) recognises as reality. Saying something is your own experience is fine and dandy but arguing against reality because you choose to ignore reality and calling that your own experience as if it's some evidence that your point of view holds any merit really isn't ok. It's not even crazy. It's just plain old blinkered bullshit. Bullshit yourself all you want but don't expect other people to agree with you.

Nice overreaction there, SeriouslyNow. Apparently I'm only allowed to have an opinion based on your experience, and not my own. That's blinkered bullshit. If you don't like what I say, that's fine, but your going to need to grow up someday and realize that other people have different experiences and opinions that are valid whether or not you like them.

Not MY experience. The broader experience. I mentioned the media and Halo Kid for a reason. Don't try and use my wording, structure and style in a false accusation you shape against me by, once again, ignoring reality and supplanting your own.

Of course, it is entirely possible for Microsoft to offer Xbox Live for free and still make a profit. They just wouldn't make as much of a profit. And a business logically wants to maximize its profits (that, I remind you, is the point of a business - to make money for investors).

Is paying for it a bad thing? If you think it's worth it, and if you find you get your money's worth, then no, it's not a bad thing. If you like the service and you find the price reasonable, then it's not bad at all. If you do find it unreasonable and you don't derive enjoyment from the service then, uh, I suppose, don't pay for it? I do believe that's an option, if I'm not mistaken. It's not like there's a gun held to your head demanding that you buy it. It's not like you need Xbox Live. I'm pretty sure, according to most people that I've talked to, that Xbox live is not a requirement for a happy life. So if you think it's not worth the money, and this is just a suggestion mind you, you might not want to pay for it.

Should it be free? Well, here's another question: A Porsche Panamera S costs about 260,000 dollars. It certainly doesn't cost that much to make. Not by a mile. Should you angrily demand, shout and coerce the porsche dealer to lower the price by 50,000 dollars? Is anyone entitled to an immediate discount, merely because it doesn't cost that much to make? No! It's a completely optional luxury car!

Xbox live is a completely optional luxury gaming service that really, really isn't that important in the scheme of things. You say it should be free. Why? Are you being horribly oppressed by the fact that it is not free? Are you suffering immensely under the burden of paying for Xbox Live? Has your household budget been ruined and your family shattered by the fact that a completely optional multiplayer gaming service was not offered for free? No? Well keep following that line of thought.

You are well entitled to think that it is not worth the price. I don't think Xbox Live is worth the price myself. And you know what I do about it? I don't purchase a gold membership! That's all I had to do - not buy something, and so far, I appear to be alive, happy, healthy and in possession of everything I need to live a good life.

Back end stuff? It doesn't go down for 19 days?

They charge because they can. And because they want money. Believe me, if the PS3 had come out first, Sony would charge for PSN use. They only made it free because they thought it would undermine Microsoft. Since Microsoft came out with the 360 first, it got to set the price for online console stuff, and it decided to charge. Virtually any other company would have done the same.

If you don't think it's worth it, don't buy a gold membership. While I like Gears of War 2 and RSV2, I didn't think it was worth it - generally I don't think paying for multiplayer at all is worth it. I wouldn't even use the PSN if not for the fact that it was free.

Microsoft is a corporation. The purpose of a corporation is to make money. They have crunched the numbers, and Microsoft knows that it will continue to make more money charging for Xbox Live, than it would make from increased sales if they offered Microsoft Live for free. That's the reason: pure, cold, hard mathematics. They have calculated that this is the most optimal way to make money without alienating a significant portion of its user base. Even Microsoft customers are willing to pay for the Gold membership - so they continue to charge for it.

It's nothing to get too upset over. It's not like Microsoft is being an evil demon from beyond the furthest stars that eats the bones of children, simply for wanting to make money. If you think it's too expensive, then you are fully within your rights to not buy it. But why do you think you are entitled to free service? Running the service itself certainly isn't free. It's not a life necessity like water or food or anything else like that - it's just a luxury, a video game service. Microsoft have the total moral right to charge whatever they want for this service, because it's just a luxury. Not a necessity.

Hell, if you can afford a console, you are far luckier and richer than the vast majority of people on this planet. It's a little bit strange that you would complain that an optional video game service is not provided to you for free.

@MideonNViscera said:

@MysteriousBob said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@MideonNViscera said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@MideonNViscera said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

LOL @ Console players arguing over which service is best. PC gamers have LOTS of services to choose from and lots of destinations to get demos, media, games and information and most of them are free.

Yes, but most of us don't wanna play on PC.

MMOs, the largest market yet.

Yeah, and they take ridiculous amounts of time and effort. I will give WoW props for keeping it simple so everyone's computer can run it nowadays though.

WoW is a fucking drop in the ocean compared all of the K-MMOs in the wild.

I'd rather take sandpaper to my eyeballs than play any MMOs. The PC can have its crappy exclusive genres, I've got fighting games to play.

Ya know, I got to 48 in Everquest when 50 was the cap, I got to 60 in WoW when that was the cap, and I played DAoC and EQ2 both a fair bit. They were all exactly the same, for all intents and purposes. I absolutely cannot imagine an MMO that would persuade me to not only buy it, but buy a computer to run it, and then pay monthly to play it. If there's a genre in existence that truly needs a redefinition, it is the MMO. Until then, I'll stick to fighting games with you haha

So you played generic MMO A, B and C? WoW, you're brave and so well informed on the state of game development. Quick, better run to generic fighter X, Y and z where that $10/month 'saving' has gone into development and really evolved those fighting games SO MUCH FURTHER than every other genre in 20 years. Fighters : the most evolved genre in ALL gaming ever.

@MideonNViscera said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@MideonNViscera said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

@MideonNViscera said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

LOL @ Console players arguing over which service is best. PC gamers have LOTS of services to choose from and lots of destinations to get demos, media, games and information and most of them are free.

Yes, but most of us don't wanna play on PC.

MMOs, the largest market yet.

Yeah, and they take ridiculous amounts of time and effort. I will give WoW props for keeping it simple so everyone's computer can run it nowadays though.

WoW is a fucking drop in the ocean compared all of the K-MMOs in the wild.

Ok, but I don't know what the hell a K-MMO even is, though I'd guess it's Korean. However, that's the country that is the poster child for unhealthy gaming habits so I wouldn't exactly be surprised.

You mean like live national televised and institutionalised gaming? Yeah, that's Korea. You mean like having the largest MMO market in the world? That's Korea. You mean having a bigger games development market than the US and Europe combined? That's Korea. Calling a country a 'poster child' because some idiots didn't eat or didn't look after their children is rather specious when you ignore everything else happening in that country and the one you come from too.

@haggis said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

So basically you choose to ignore reality and have an opinion based what you choose not to see which everyone else, including the media (HALO KID/CHOCOLATE MILK) recognises as reality. Saying something is your own experience is fine and dandy but arguing against reality because you choose to ignore reality and calling that your own experience as if it's some evidence that your point of view holds any merit really isn't ok. It's not even crazy. It's just plain old blinkered bullshit. Bullshit yourself all you want but don't expect other people to agree with you.

Nice overreaction there, SeriouslyNow. Apparently I'm only allowed to have an opinion based on your experience, and not my own. That's blinkered bullshit. If you don't like what I say, that's fine, but your going to need to grow up someday and realize that other people have different experiences and opinions that are valid whether or not you like them.

Not MY experience. The broader experience. I mentioned the media and Halo Kid for a reason. Don't try and use my wording, structure and style in a false accusation you shape against me by, once again, ignoring reality and supplanting your own.

I think xbox live is alot better than psn and i am a psn plus member too.

I dont really use any of the other stuff on xbox live either.

I would love to be able to use netflix on xbox or even on pc or anything but we cant here in the UK :(

I could pay about £35 a month for a very limited version of sky tv on xbox but i did one month and found it was total pants !

@EpicSteve said:

Microsoft has the best online infrastructure. PSN is clunky, doesn't work as well as it should, and is impossible to navigate.

Pretty much.

I played Resident Evil 5 on both the 360 and the PS3 with different friends, and the ease with which I was able to set up a game and voice chat on the 360 compared to the PS3 was incredible. Right now I'm playing Mortal Kombat on the PS3 with a friend, and it's a fucking mess. We actually have to use our phones just to voice chat! (Google it, it's a common issue. We have everything set up right and we can't even voice chat on the PS3.)

I happily pay $3.30 a month for a superior service (thanks to sites like CheapAssGamer, I get Xbox Live for $40 or less a year). I'm already a PlayStation Plus member, but I would happily give Sony more monies if I could get an online service that was at least comparable with Xbox Live's.

@sammo21 said:

I don't see anyone bitching.

Need to go back and read your OP then.

This is still going? Can this just die off, it's a never ending argument.

@haggis said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

So basically you choose to ignore reality and have an opinion based what you choose not to see which everyone else, including the media (HALO KID/CHOCOLATE MILK) recognises as reality. Saying something is your own experience is fine and dandy but arguing against reality because you choose to ignore reality and calling that your own experience as if it's some evidence that your point of view holds any merit really isn't ok. It's not even crazy. It's just plain old blinkered bullshit. Bullshit yourself all you want but don't expect other people to agree with you.

Nice overreaction there, SeriouslyNow. Apparently I'm only allowed to have an opinion based on your experience, and not my own. That's blinkered bullshit. If you don't like what I say, that's fine, but your going to need to grow up someday and realize that other people have different experiences and opinions that are valid whether or not you like them.

Whoa whoa. Did someone just slam chocolate milk? That stuff is fucking delicious! You take that back!

I have my current Xbox live sub set till December of 2012. I started the sub around January 2010. If you'll notice, that's one month short of 3 years. Paid a grand total of 40 bucks for that whole time frame. I also added 2 years to my son's Xbox Live sub for another grand total of 40 bucks. Complain about the price all you want, but if you can use a search engine, there's no reason at all to ever have to pay full price. I think I've paid full price for a year of Xbox Live once and if I remember correctly, that was because I forgot to turn off auto renew. I have both systems, and I even bought 15 months of PSN+ before the network went down. I highly doubt I continue my PSN+ but you can rest assured that I'll continue my Xbox Live sub. It's just simply worth it for me. Especially since I never pay full price for it. 

No one is forcing you to pay for it if you don't like it. Vote with your wallet. I found it to be a good service worth the fee they were asking for it so I've had zero issue with this.

The Xbox Live fee is just business pure and simple, a company provides a service for a consumer and then places a price on said service. If that service's cost meets the value attached to it by the consumer they will pay. If Sony could have pulled off the same thing they would have done it, because no matter who the company, it's all about making money. The value of XBL is subjective and as such everyone will know where they sit on the 'issue', arguing over it is utterly pointless.

@MideonNViscera: Actually you're just coming off like a prick.

@MideonNViscera said:

It's funny because the people who pay for it don't mind paying for it at all, while the people who don't/can't are just bitching cause they want another hand-out.

"If you like paying for it you're cool, but if you don't like paying for it you're just cheap". I don't see anyone bitching. Bringing up a topic and asking a question is not bitching. Just because someone doesn't agree in something you love with your heart, soul, and mind doesn't automatically make you right and them wrong. You sound like someone who just waits to jump on whatever train and never questions anything.

@MideonNViscera said:

It's funny because the people who pay for it don't mind paying for it at all, while the people who don't/can't are just bitching cause they want another hand-out.

"If you like paying for it you're cool, but if you don't like paying for it you're just cheap". I don't see anyone bitching. Bringing up a topic and asking a question is not bitching. Just because someone doesn't agree in something you love with your heart, soul, and mind doesn't automatically make you right and them wrong. You sound like someone who just waits to jump on whatever train and never questions anything.

No matter how many good arguments either side makes, no one on the internet is going to say, "I'm sorry. I was wrong, thank you for the good reasoning." Both the OP and the people arguing with him are 100% convinced of their side, and no matter what anyone else says, its not going to change their mind. They may say, "If someone comes up with a good argument then I would listen, but no one has," but we all know statements like that are BS people say to bolster their own belief that they are right. They just keep their horse blinders on and continue to complain/argue. Again, I'm talking about both sides to this matter, not just the OP.

It's funny because the people who pay for it don't mind paying for it at all, while the people who don't/can't are just bitching cause they want another hand-out.

@buft said:

it costs barely anything and i like the service, i use it to watch sky player on my tv, for me thats great because otherwise i would have to watch it on a laptop screen and it doesnt always work well because my processor is slow. how come i gotta pay rates even though i own my house?

It costs the price of a game. That's not barely anything considering you could buy a new game with that money.

@buft said:

it costs barely anything and i like the service, i use it to watch sky player on my tv, for me thats great because otherwise i would have to watch it on a laptop screen and it doesnt always work well because my processor is slow. how come i gotta pay rates even though i own my house?

It costs the price of a game. That's not barely anything considering you could buy a new game with that money.

Hey, we are just talking about features here, nothing else. All I'm saying is that if you wanted a 360 with all of the features of a stock PS3 in 2007, you were going to be paying more than if you had just gotten a PS3. There was other stuff that made the 360 more successful (earlier launch, better games, and lower barrier-to-entry for developers just to name a few).

Like one guy said way back, if you see value in LIVE, you will pay for it. If you do not, then you won't. Simple. 
 
I used to pay for LIVE, then my 360 red-ringed so I started using PSN. Never went back. To me, the small differences between the two services does not warrant the extra money for LIVE, as I find the free PSN to be sufficiently competent (matchmaking, download speeds, community features) or better (XMB interface, PSN store, Netflix) than its paid counterpart.

No matter how many good arguments either side makes, no one on the internet is going to say, "I'm sorry. I was wrong, thank you for the good reasoning." Both the OP and the people arguing with him are 100% convinced of their side, and no matter what anyone else says, its not going to change their mind. They may say, "If someone comes up with a good argument then I would listen, but no one has," but we all know statements like that are BS people say to bolster their own belief that they are right. They just keep their horse blinders on and continue to complain/argue. Again, I'm talking about both sides to this matter, not just the OP.

Everything about Xbox Live is better than the alternatives from the other consoles; For the sake of being practical, this means PS3 since the Wii is an absolute joke.