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328 Comments
Posted by polyorpheus
@TekZero: I've said it all along. Buying a used car is no different than stealing it.
Posted by Mystyr_E
@Sanious: and yet there's trophies for getting every ending in the game, which you can only do by replaying the game :S
Posted by Matoya

Why would I buy a new game for 40 quid when I can wait a while and buy it for 20?

Posted by NotValeriusCato

Entomology is the study of bugs. I would posit that since they are so much much smaller than most cakes they can in fact have, even live in, their cake and eat it too.

Posted by probablytuna

For most big releases I tend to buy at launch, but I generally search online stores for the best price (aka lowest) without resorting to used games. Developers and publishers still get their share or profit and I get a great deal out of it as well.

Posted by Klei
@Sanious said:
@TekZero said:
I've said it all along, buying used games is no different than piracy. 
It actually is, by a long shot.

Oh yeah, it gives money to Gamestop. har har!
Posted by deliciousroastbeefsandwich

I don't want to be 'that guy', but entomology is the study of insects. You're looking for etymology, the study of the history of words.

Posted by RecSpec

@CanItRunBF3: No, that was someone else, David Cage.

Posted by Alex

@deliciousroastbeefsandwich: Oh Word auto-correct, you such a dick!

Staff
Posted by Dooftastic

Isn't this the guy who said that people playing this game should play through it only once and be satisfied with the ending they receive? Big mystery as to why people who bought the game new sold it to Gamestop for resale. This game works best as a rental/bought used for cheap.

Posted by Sword5

He should have made more DLC. Three well made $10 DLC stories would have pulled in money from some of the extra million users or would have convinced some of that first two million to keep it. 
 
Most people don't put finished games on the mantle. QD gave people 6 hours and empty promises of DLC. I hope a lot of people sold it back.

Posted by Alphazero

You can't own a cake any more than when you've just eaten it. It is about as yours as you can get.

Also, I didn't play your game because lost children make me stressed and unhappy.

Posted by Benny

@RiotBananas said:

Are you writing these titles just to take the piss now?

Would you prefer a pun in every title?

It's just a headline.

Posted by Scodiac

Yeah, this a great article. I totally agree with Alex on this one. That first paragraph is awesome. by the way.

Posted by chickdigger802

@deliciousroastbeefsandwich said:

I don't want to be 'that guy', but entomology is the study of insects. You're looking for etymology, the study of the history of words.

I knew something was 'bugging' me here. Words.

Posted by RecSpec

Now that I think about this, isn't calling this guy a developer the same as calling Bobby Kotick a developer? I don't think he had that much to do with the actual development.

Posted by Koobz

Guillaume de Fondaumiere seems like he's been upset for all kinds of reasons for all kinds of a while about his retooling of the Dragon's Lair gameplay formula not bringing about the technological singularity and making him a god among men.

I know there's lots of things to be upset about when it comes to video games (such as everything, all the time), but wouldn't it serve de Fondaumiere better to wax philosophical on what will make his next game totally worth $60 rather than complaining that aspects of current economic systems aren't designed to funnel profits into his wallet?

Posted by Nate
@ectoplasma said:

Well he complained that they didnt buy it and his reasoning is that its too expensive. I think he would think it reasonable if the game would have a lower pricepoint and less copies were bought used. I dont really see this as an contradiction.

 
Well said. I don't see any contradiction here. He's just suggesting that if pricing were more reasonable maybe more people would buy new games. And guess what - he wants people to buy HIS game new. Imagine that.  
 
I do, however, agree with Navarro about him seeming to complain that his game didn't sell more when it did sell really well. Good luck getting much sympahty with that one.
Posted by Phobos

I wanted to own a copy of Heavy Rain, and consume a good story; I wanted to eat my cake, but found out it was poop-cake.

Edited by Sanious
@Sooty said:

@Sanious said:

@TekZero said:

I've said it all along, buying used games is no different than piracy.
It actually is, by a long shot.

Not really. Piracy and used games both give the publishers and developers nothing. You can argue that the game was originally bought new at some point which gave them some money but it doesn't quite rule out the fact that two users have played the game while the publisher & developer only saw $60 from both of you combined.

Piracy is more of a concern due to you being able to easily distribute multiple copies of a game, though. You can't magic used games out of thin air.

Used games have a potential of bringing in more revenue if the individual likes the product. When it comes to DLC or further titles. Plus maybe the individual will look out for more titles by that developer. Either way this is not the fault of the person on how they want to purchase the game because the used market is a legal one.  Plus games are expensive and this is the fault of publishers.
 
Each used copy was a copy bought by someone else. Whether you like used games or not it is putting money where the people who sell those games used a business/place to give that service to you. Which in turn keeps more retail places for the publishers/developers to sell their games. Pirating is a bigger financial hit because it takes one person to upload the game and then an unlimited amount of people can obtain it without a penny.  There is no money to go anywhere and it doesn't support or benefit anyone. 

Comparing someone who is buying the game legitimately, whether it is used or not vs. someone who hops online and steals the product with no intention of putting any money towards anything is different. 
Posted by wumbo3000

I can tell whether it's an Alex Navarro article just by reading the headline. Alex, you are amazing.

Posted by SteveTabernacle

Heavy Rain is a modern day Dragon's Lair, that it even got anywhere near the sales it did get was something he should see as a fucking miracle as is.

Posted by MediumDave

Personally, should I be blessed to have a product out there that people would buy and watch and experience, I don't give a FUCK how they experience it, I'll just be happy that they did. Don't get me wrong, should the day arrive that I need the money, in the back of my head will probably be, "Damn, if only those *blank* amount of people had bought the Blu instead of Netflixing it, I would be able to..." but I would still be ecstatic that 3 million people saw my vision.

But maybe I'm weird.

Also, if not for Gamefly, I wouldn't have even played Heavy Rain. I still would've been annoyed with it, though. Jaaaayyy-son. Write a better story with some replay value and good acting that doesn't steal it's entire style and palette from late 90's thrillers that ripped their style and palette from Se7en and maybe I'll buy your goddamn game!

Posted by The_Martian

I was going to buy this game used...I don't think that has change based off his opinion.

Posted by BlatantNinja23

Maybe his game shouldn't have had such awful voice acting and such an awful ending to the story that it makes me forget anything good that game actually did.... Also games are kinda getting cheaper, inflation wise games would be easily over 100 based on previous console cycle costs

Posted by StealthRaptor

I once had a friend give me an amazing looking piece of chocolate cake, but I was really tired and when I started to eat it I zoned out. When I came to, there were only crumbs on the plate in front of me. I could really use a self-replenishing cake recipe.

Posted by Nate
@Sooty said:

@Sanious said:

@TekZero said:
I've said it all along, buying used games is no different than piracy.
It actually is, by a long shot.

Not really. Piracy and used games both give the publishers and developers nothing. You can argue that the game was originally bought new at some point which gave them some money but it doesn't quite rule out the fact that two users have played the game while the publisher & developer only saw $60 from both of you combined.

Piracy is more of a concern due to you being able to easily distribute multiple copies of a game, though. You can't magic used games out of thin air.


I'll readily admit that I have bought a new game before ONLY because I knew I could sell it when I was done. Therefore, the fellow buying my used game is enabling me to have bought the new game in the first place. I've done this with several games as my gaming budget (private school teacher with 2 kids and a mortgage) is about 20-25 bucks a month.  Also, I never would have bought a console in the first place if I knew I was going to need to plop down 60 bucks every time I wanted to buy a game.  Buying my 360 about 4 years ago was a step I took with a lot of trepidation.
Edited by Deathpooky

I also don't see the problem with what this guy said. Used game sales are a problem with developers and publishers - that's not controversial, and it's proven by the 1 million players versus sales number he cites. Pretty much every developer and publisher agrees on this. Yet this guy goes one step further than most and acknowledges that game prices might be driving people to buy used and developers should look into that. He should be commended for this, not trashed.

It's not contradictory to say "I have a problem with used game sales" and "games are too expensive maybe we should do something about that." It's not like he's trumpeting the $60 new price point as the proper one or anything.

ETA: And I'll even say that I think he's wrong that reducing sales prices would have a measurable impact on used game sales, which makes whining about his quote even more asinine. Reduce MSRP to $50 or $40 and you'd have Gamestop used sales at $5 below that. Gamestop has no problem matching new prices given that they have little to no costs associated with used sales.

Posted by Nicky92

That's right games are expensive. £39.99 average price in the UK and Call of duty always ever since MW2 price at £44.99 because they know there going to sell.

Posted by baron_calamity

And this is why they should make Heavy Rain for the pc and sell it on steam. no used copies there. ;)

Posted by Sooty

@Sanious said:

@Sooty said:

@Sanious said:

@TekZero said:

I've said it all along, buying used games is no different than piracy.
It actually is, by a long shot.

Not really. Piracy and used games both give the publishers and developers nothing. You can argue that the game was originally bought new at some point which gave them some money but it doesn't quite rule out the fact that two users have played the game while the publisher & developer only saw $60 from both of you combined.

Piracy is more of a concern due to you being able to easily distribute multiple copies of a game, though. You can't magic used games out of thin air.

Used games have a potential of bringing in more revenue if the individual likes the product. When it comes to DLC or further titles. Plus maybe the individual will look out for more titles by that developer. Either way this is not the fault of the person on how they want to purchase the game because the used market is a legal one. Plus games are expensive and this is the fault of publishers. Each used copy was a copy bought by someone else. Whether you like used games or not it is putting money where the people who sell those games used a business/place to give that service to you. Which in turn keeps more retail places for the publishers/developers to sell their games. Pirating is a bigger financial hit because it takes one person to upload the game and then an unlimited amount of people can obtain it without a penny. There is no money to go anywhere and it doesn't support or benefit anyone. Comparing someone who is buying the game legitimately, whether it is used or not vs. someone who hops online and steals the product with no intention of putting any money towards anything is different.

Well technically piracy also has the potential of bringing in revenue. If I recall correctly you can't pirate DLC on the 360, but you can purchase it. Of course you may eventually get banned for using a modified console on Xbox Live it's still an option for you to purchase any DLC available. Piracy can also persuade people to purchase the next game in a series, of course it's likely they will just pirate it but it's also likely they'll wait for a used copy.

I used to pirate games, I don't anymore as I need to buy stuff as extra motivation to see them through to the end, I do this with books too. However, I still don't see piracy and used games as much different. People can argue otherwise but when it comes down to it that developer isn't seeing money for the used sale, much like a pirated game.

Posted by SpudBug

I'm one of those million

and also one of the probably 700k or so that just returned it to gamestop after a day or two of laughing at the dialog, acting, plot, and gameplay

Posted by morrelloman

Everything this man says in the media is relatively French. Also, he seems pretty angry for a guy that makes games for a living. I hope the next time I read about him its related to a new game and not him complaining and/or boasting about how Heavy Rain's success and/or innovation or lack thereof.

Posted by Xer0Signal

This article is on some Fox News shit.
 
Sorry the guy with a job wants to make money off of a product he makes. How dare he!?
 
And be sure to remember this article next time you hear anyone on GB, or any other podcast complain about Gamestop's used game market and how it's "killing the industry" because no one buys new games.
 
Wow.

Posted by nick_verissimo

@Oginam said:

JASON!

Winner

Posted by WilliamHenry

@Sooty said:

@Sanious said:

@TekZero said:
I've said it all along, buying used games is no different than piracy.
It actually is, by a long shot.

Not really. Piracy and used games both give the publishers and developers nothing. You can argue that the game was originally bought new at some point which gave them some money but it doesn't quite rule out the fact that two users have played the game while the publisher & developer only saw $60 from both of you combined.

Piracy is more of a concern due to you being able to easily distribute multiple copies of a game, though. You can't magic used games out of thin air.

The only similarity is that devs/pubs don't receive any money from used game sales or pirated copies. You're trying to make it seem like its morally wrong to buy a used game because the creators don't make any profit off of it, and that is just wrong. Its perfectly legal and morally fine. Like others have said, is buying a used car the same as stealing one (piracy isn't stealing, but close enough)?

People always seem to forget to mention that just because someone bought a used copy, that doesn't mean they would have bought a new copy if there was no used game/rental market. Many would just never buy the game at all. A used copy/pirated copy/rented copy is not automatically a lost sale. I don't buy many games, but when I do, they're used. If there is no used market, I just won't buy any games at all, or at best, I would wait a year or two and pick them up for $20.

Posted by Lunar_Aura

Watch a letsplay of Heavy Rain, get accused of piracy.

Posted by Sooty

@WilliamHenry: I'm not saying it's morally wrong. I couldn't care less what other people do, I'm merely stating that piracy and used games aren't all that different when it comes down to it.

Posted by TorMasturba

I bought Heavy Rain pre-owned, and because of this guy's comments I would do it again if the clock were turned back.

Posted by ProfessorEss

Once, just once I would like to hear a developer say: "In addition to used purchases, I think the overall quality of our game and some of the decisions we made may have hurt sales. Bloated salaries and lack of efficiency played their part as well".  
 
These guys all use the used-games market as an easy way to make up "shoulda-woulda-coulda" numbers, show nothing to back these numbers up and then use these to backup any and every complaint they have. QD made niche game, exclusive to one platform, that put gameplay in the backseat to storytelling, and, from most people I've talked to, failed to really raise that storytelling bar that they based their entire game on. 
 
I mean, how many more than two million did they really think Heavy Rain was going to sell?
 
 
@SparkEngineer: You may be right, but in today's game industry I can't help but assume he's doing the exact same whining as every other pub and dev out there. Regardless, they are chipping away at the used market pretty consistently and I'm sure it's life is limited. I'm very anxious to see what they blame once the used market is gone. I'm sure it will be just as entertaining.

Posted by SgtGrumbles

@TekZero said:

I've said it all along, buying used games is no different than piracy.

You've been wrong all this time then.

Posted by yeah_write

If the industry changed the price of games to $35, I would buy way more games. Every now and then Amazon sells a brand new game at that price and I snatch it up immediately. It's affordable for a guy like me with bills, a family and other responsibilities. At $35 I would be willing to buy more and rent less, I'd also be willing to take a chance on games that I probably wouldn't have purchased. 
 
As for Heavy Rain, I played the first six hours through Gamefly. I got one of the black screen error discs and sent it back. The next one was the same. The game just DID NOT work with my PS3. When I went online to find a possible fix, I stumbled into a forum that spoiled the story. The ending was stupid. I sent the game back.

Posted by eloj

Wonder if "the used scrolls market" and "the need to extend copyright beyond ones lifetime" were really the big debates in ancient times, or if perhaps our creative forefathers channeled all their energies instead into creating the very works that have brought us to this technology-driven place in history.

Posted by wickedsc3

I see nothing wrong with this. He is trying to make more money but unlike most company's he is proposing doing that by lowering the cost of games. That kind of corporate greed I'm fine with. I wonder if maybe having a sell back program to the company would be good, like say instead of selling it back to Gamestop, sell it back to the company and get a discount on their next game.

Or if a bunch of publishers got together and decided not to release their games to gamestop and found a way to not allow trade in's. Maybe by doing something GS didn't like, such as the Deus Ex thing were it had a competing system. I would love me some $40 games lol.

But it really don't matter to me because I buy through Amazon so I usually always have some Amazon bucks and get new games for like $40 anyway.

Posted by Aetheldod

@rargy said:

I rented it. Sorry.

this

Edited by Pr1mus

They did not lose money. Made less yes but losing money no. Even if 3 millions people played the game they did not have to manufacture a new disc with all the packaging involved for the one millions people who didn't buy it new. They produced 2 millions disc and sold 2 millions. Those disc going into someone else's hand does not lose them money. They never had to provide for these people to begin with.

Also i recall David Cage saying that one should only play Heavy Rain once. That it has no replay value and playing again would ruin the magic of this story. Might just has well put a notice on the box saying not to buy it.

Posted by None_Braver

I get really sick of game industry "professionals" complaining about used game sales. A lot of people don't want to pay $60 for something that isn't proven or very short. With that said, you never hear about the auto industry complaining about used sales.

Posted by Sanious
@Sooty said:


I used to pirate games, I don't anymore as I need to buy stuff as extra motivation to see them through to the end, I do this with books too. However, I still don't see piracy and used games as much different. People can argue otherwise but when it comes down to it that developer isn't seeing money for the used sale, much like a pirated game.

The developer not seeing the money is the only similarity. The person is still buying the game in some form, which is not the fault of them when the option is there. It's a perfectly legal way and like I said, the money is going somewhere that contributes in some way to games in general. 
 
I have a hard time believing people who pirate would buy the next title of a game. I think there are people who just straight up pirate and do not have a single care in the world of who made the game. Where as people buying used are only buying used because it is cheaper, not for any ill intentions or to rip off publishers/developers.
Posted by NTM

The reason I didn't end up buying it, was because despite me wanting to play it countless times after I beat Indigo Prophecy, the voice acting in Heavy Rain reminded me of how much the voice acting sucks. That has to be the worst, a cinematic game, and it has laughably (or not so laughably) bad voice acting. Now that's annoying.