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Posted by vhold

Thank you for getting right to the point. The game sold two million copies, but he's ignoring that and focusing on this hypothetical one million copies. They're going to shoot themselves in the foot if they keep getting their priorities reversed like that.

Posted by originalgamer

I believe his name is too long, and too hard to pronounce.

Posted by TheMasterDS

@patronics: The thing is a used couch is used and often in poor condition. There's no wear and tear that makes a used copy inferior to a new copy outside of stuff like Project 10 Dollar, which I consider to be the way to approach it. Hell, I think they should throw whole single player campaigns behind a project 10 dollar wall if you buy used. That'll show people thinking they can buy used without paying a cent to you.

Or everything should just be downloaded. Either or.

Posted by Arc209

Amazing, this whole article

Posted by onan

Has he played his own game? He should be happy they tricked 66% of purchasers into paying full price for it. And THREE MILLION players? History has shown this rarely ever is the case for a game like this. He should thank whatever deity he prays to every night for that windfall.

Posted by zels
@TheMasterDS: Yeah, except for scratches, damaged boxes, missing manuals and so on. Complaining about used games' sales in such a way in SP only games is just stupid because there's no guarantee that a person who bought a used game would've spent the additional money to get that same game new (blahblahblah we would've gotten $x more cash). 
 
Also, if you want to start solving the problem of used games market, force m$ and sony to finally catch up to the PC market and offer proper digital distribution with lower prices and special sales on older titles. I can't recall how many times I had to buy an older game used just because a new copy was nowhere to be found.
Edited by Gorehorn

@patronics said:

Tough shit. I don't know why game developers feel like they should be immune to people exercising their right of first sale. Does every furniture maker wring their hands about people buying second hand couches at a thrift store?

That's all fine and well, but you have to consider that video games are somewhat unique in not suffering wear and tear. Before the advent of Online Passes used games were indistinguishable from new products. 'Real-life' used products diminish in value cause they're more likely to break, but games like Heavy Rain will offer the same experience regardless of when you put them in your PS 3.

That said I don't agree with de Fondaumiere's math, it's as flawed as the calculations publishers present on piracy. Sure, he might be correct IF every one of those 1 million players had bought the game new but I can speak for myself and say I rented Heavy Rain and never would have considered even buying a used copy cause it didn't seem worth it.

Posted by SonicBoyster
@SparkEngineer said:

What a terrible article.

First of all, Quantic Dream has no choice in what their game costs. That's up to Sony, the developer.

As a producer of goods, I believe his issue is that he is upset that more people didn't feel his game was worth retail pricing. That seems to be what I get out of the article.

He's also not saying he lost 1million sales, he's saying that there were 1 million people willing to play the game that he could not sell it to. Of course, as a game developer, your number one priority is to make as much money as possible, so obviously he's going to be aiming to figure out how to sell the game to those extra 1 million people.

He's not an English native speaker and I just feel that this article is being highly misinterpreted by those who read others work and spit it out in a different way.

Posted by Pr1mus

@originalgamer said:

I believe his name is too long, and too hard to pronounce.

haha nice :D

Posted by Tan

Oh no 2 million

Posted by Marz

I enjoyed heavy rain a lot and how there can be multiple paths and endings through mainly a cinematic type of game.  But I didn't feel the urge to play through it multiple times.  Thus i just ended up selling it back on Ebay the following week.

Posted by Undeadpool

I almost worked out self-replenishing cake...but the icing matrix always collapsed, rending the very fabric of reality, and then it's just "Shoggoth" this and "Yog sothoth" that.

Edited by John1912

Yea it is a bit sad how the 2nd hand market affects game devs.  Really no other market has such a high volume turn over in such a short period of time.  I know its really not practical or enforceable, but Id almost be inclined to say companies should be entitled to a % of the 2nd had sales.  Least if they stop fucking nickle and dimeing us on DLC, character costumes and map packs 2 weeks after the game comes out >.>

Posted by MusiM

Wow is that an inaccurate way to count sales.  See I bought a copy of Heavy Rain.  My fiancee played it through a time or two, her sister played it a bit, and several other of my friends played it.  So from my copy at least 3 people with PSN registered accounts played the game.  So even though my fiancee and I live in the same place, we should buy two copies?  I don't think so.  That's a really inaccurate way to figure out numbers.  

Posted by Meowshi

It sucks that the lost about a million sales in profit, but I'm simply beyond the point of caring when the cost of games (plus DLC) is so high.  It's a lose-lose situation for everyone.  

Posted by aceofspudz

Console games should come with unique keys that lock it to your account, like arcade titles. In the meantime: start supporting developers and stop buying used games.

Posted by TheMasterDS

@zels: That's true, and I do agree that if there were steam like sales for retail software instead of used software it'd be loads better for all involved. However as it stands that's not the case, and I feel as a result making people pay for access when they get a used copy makes sense because atleast that way for every used sale you're getting a piece. Additionally this means that used softtware prices goes down as the caveat involved in buying used increases, meaning less money going to the Gamestop without cutting a ton of money on your end.

Or, if you want to make it a step simpler, sell New Copy Codes to Gamestop. Make it so they can put on their used copies "Comes with online pass!" so they can still sell them at inflated prices but have the upshot of used gaming while giving the publisher their cut.

Posted by AgnosticJesus

I bought it, hated it, and traded it in 3 days layers. Make a better game and people will buy it. You never hear Naughty Dog complaining about sales of the Uncharted games or Epic with GOW. Probably because their games are fun to play and you're not constantly battling poor controls.

Edited by phrali

2 million people bought it. 1 million played used copies
 
you know what that means? 
 
A MILLION PEOPLE PLAYED IT ONCE AND THEN SOLD IT BECAUSE THERE WAS NO REASON TO PLAY IT AGAIN
 
whose fault is that?

Posted by tourgen

HAHAHAHAH what an idiot. Fine, take your ball and go home crybaby. If even a mediocre game like Heavy Rain can sell 2 million units at $60 there will be 5 people ready to move in and take your place. Either compete or GTFO. No more whiny entitlement complex please.

Posted by JudgeDread

2 million bought the game, 1 million did not think it was worth keeping and sold it.  1 million did not think the game was worth purchasing at ful price. There is the problem you greedy developer pos.
 
fuck the developers whining about used sales. If they cannot make things work in a market using thousand year old rules they deserve to go under (out of business).

Posted by Tumbler

Meh, got this used from from goozex, played it for a few min and decided it wasn't for me and passed it on to another. There is no way I'd have taken the chance to even try this game if I was stuck with it at full price. What publishers should probably pay the most attention to is how many people who bought the game chose to trade it off when done with it. Assuming none of those people buy your game without that ability how many sales will you have? In this case 50% fewer sales. 2 million copies sold, 3 million people played it, that means 1 million people played it without buying it new. So that means that if you take away the ability to resell you only sell 1 million copies are sold since those last million clearly bought it and traded it.

So you tell me, is it better to sell 1 million copies or 2 million copies? Go ahead and put up restrictions that stop resale and see what happens. It's worked so well for the PC. Look how many big budget games are being shipped on that platform. Oh...right...most of the big games have moved to the consoles because they sell more copies there...I guess console gamers just don't know about the PC? I mean once you know about the PC and all it's restrictions and bullshit hoops to jump through it's just crazy to think about spending money elsewhere right?

Posted by pyromagnestir

I signed up to gamefly for a month to play this game, among others. So does that mean I'm part of the problem?

Posted by abrasion

Loved the game, 2 million sales is more than enough,. He should stop whining.

Posted by theuselessgod

I wish less people bought Heavy Rain. I thought that game was a poor excuse for storytelling.  
But hey, I'm glad people enjoyed it I guess. I rented it, so there's that. 

Posted by shinluis

Well then make better games with less astoundingly lame ass plot holes then.

Posted by ViciousAnchovy

12 pages of comments and not one mention of Fat Princess after seeing the term "self-replenishing" cake: I don't know what to think about the GB community right now.

Posted by daviddoel

My girlfriend played through my copy on her account and then I played it through on my account - both on my PS3. Is he completely blind to the fact that people share games like that?

Edited by TEAMHOLT

@TheMasterDS said:

@patronics: The thing is a used couch is used and often in poor condition. There's no wear and tear that makes a used copy inferior to a new copy outside of stuff like Project 10 Dollar, which I consider to be the way to approach it. Hell, I think they should throw whole single player campaigns behind a project 10 dollar wall if you buy used. That'll show people thinking they can buy used without paying a cent to you.

Or everything should just be downloaded. Either or.

The condition doesn't matter, it's a basic principle that you don't get paid for one thing twice. You can't decide "Hrm, you know, I think I want MORE money from that thing I already sold" and hold out your hand. Nothing works that way, and for good reason.

The entire point of a free market economy is that businesses who can adapt and can offer value to people thrive while those who are bad at it fuck off. "Project 10 dollar" doesn't benefit consumers at all, and it screws over even new buyers who's copies of games are worth less on the after market as soon as they punch in their codes. That's just not okay. If a business needs to screw over or inconvenience consumers over to get by, then they're doing something terribly wrong and need to change or fuck off.

A lot of gamers seem to think that publishers are charity cases and have the right to survive, and that it would be the end of the world if they went under. Well, none of that is true. They are businesses, which means they need to persuade people to give them their money, and they never have the right to twist the consumer's arm. If big publishers like EA or Ubisoft go down because of used games, so what? Someone will take their place, and it'll probably someone who knows how to make money without pissing people off.

Posted by apoloimagod

I played this game. I didn't buy it new. I didn't buy it used. I rented it :-)

Posted by Pr1mus

@TEAMHOLT: You make way too much sense for the internet son.

But i agree completely.

Posted by phish09

Oh, for gods sake.  I bought it new, and I still have my copy, but I can definitely see why people would sell it, especially after a couple of playthoughs.  
 
Who cares though?  The issue as I see it is this guy seems to think that 2nd hand sales are hurting his new game sales, which I think is B.S.  First of all, in order to sell a game used it has to first be sold new.  Secondly, think of how many people who bought the game used went and told their friends what a good game it was (and it was), and then their friend's go and buy the game new.  
 
I can't stand when game developers complain about the used game market.  How often do you hear the video/movie business complaining about used DVD sales?  How often do you hear the automobile industry complaining about used car sales?  You don't, because used sales drive new sales.  There are only so many used copies to go around, and if it's a good game, like a Batman Arkham Asylum or Fallout 3, used copies are actually usually very hard to come by, and most people aren't willing to hold out on playing a good game on the off chance that they may find a used copy for $5 less.  
 
Buddy, should just be thanking god that most libraries don't lend out video games yet.  I bet you if most libraries do start carrying video games that this guy will be spewing nonsense about how they should be shut down because they are cutting into his sales.  Most author's are pro-library because libraries get peoeple reading, which in turn could generate sales for them. That's how he should look at used game sales.  Someone probably went and bought Heavy Rain because it was cheap or on sale, and they will probably buy QD's next game new or at least recommend the game to their friends who will go and buy it new.   Selling 1 million used copies is better than selling 1 thousand new copies, but most game developers don't understand that logic. 

Posted by ProfessorEss
@ViciousAnchovy said:

12 pages of comments and not one mention of Fat Princess after seeing the term "self-replenishing" cake: I don't know what to think about the GB community right now.

I'm assuming nobody played Fat Princess because they couldn't get it used.
Posted by MangyForestCat
@TEAMHOLT said:



A lot of gamers seem to think that publishers are charity cases and have the right to survive, and that it would be the end of the world if they went under. Well, none of that is true. They are businesses, which means they need to persuade people to give them their money, and they never have the right to twist the consumer's arm. If ANY COMPANY goes down because of used games, so what? Someone will take their place, and it'll probably someone who knows how to make money without pissing people off.

 
If that's not the honest truth about how real god damn capitalism works then I don't know what is. Don't feel bad for developers or publishers. Fuck them all. This is not something that is affecting the consumer end. This is a truly "pull yourself by your own boot straps" fucking deal. Next thing that'll happen is that idiots will demand we "bail-out" developers and publishers that are going under for having a shitty business model.
Posted by JimmyJackJones

God bless you Alex, as this may be the best thing I've read all day. If only by comparing this to the "I love cats" lady.

Posted by Simplexity

Alex is such a delightful writer, I can litterally feel the snark seeping off my screen.

Also fuck that whiny guy.

Posted by outerabiz

@MangyForestCat said:

@TEAMHOLT said:

A lot of gamers seem to think that publishers are charity cases and have the right to survive, and that it would be the end of the world if they went under. Well, none of that is true. They are businesses, which means they need to persuade people to give them their money, and they never have the right to twist the consumer's arm. If ANY COMPANY goes down because of used games, so what? Someone will take their place, and it'll probably someone who knows how to make money without pissing people off.

If that's not the honest truth about how real god damn capitalism works then I don't know what is. Don't feel bad for developers or publishers. Fuck them all. This is not something that is affecting the consumer end. This is a truly "pull yourself by your own boot straps" fucking deal. Next thing that'll happen is that idiots will demand we "bail-out" developers and publishers that are going under for having a shitty business model.

they should proberbly focus on making better games instead of trying to make more people buy it,

quality generates sales, is the simple truth. (Theory of relativity applies but the statement stands.)

Still haven't finished it because i dont think it's very good.

Posted by Napalm

Project Ten Dollar is one of the greatest things to happen to gaming in a long while. 
 
I'm all about fucking over cheapskates that only buy used and then complain about it. Buy it new and literally all of your complaints will be answered, but you're probably just going to bitch some more. Seriously. Stop buying used, you cheapos. If you can't afford a new title, and you have to save five dollars, maybe you should be looking more into fixing your life rather than getting games on the cheap.

Posted by Meowayne

I am all for a 50% budget cut for all games period. Nothing narratively interesting is made with the technology anyway, while XBLA and PSN have long become the primary venue of appeal to those of us dissatisfied with the point-and-shoot 80s superhero comic book approach to high budget digital games today. 
 
Fuck games that require millions of dollars to make. 

Posted by RobertOrri

Well, I bought a copy. New.

Although it wasn't full price.

Posted by BoomSnapClap113

@TEAMHOLT: Wait. Are you saying that Gamestop has the right to sell someone else's product 3,4,5 maybe even 6 times over and not give anything to the game devs / publishers. What are you even talking about. All this is doing is causing developers to stop caring about story drivin games as much as they do, and focus more on shitty multiplayer

It's sad that someone who puts so much work, effort, and heart into a story. Loses out on millions of sales they should be receiving for there work, to big game retailers such as Gamespot, EBgames, etc. They didn't make the product, why should they make an extra 40$ on half the sales they make?

Its crazy to say that story driving games have a "bad business model". Just because a game isn't Call of Duty, based around the multiplayer, that forces everyone to buy a copy. That does not mean it deserves less money. I will call Heavy Rain a better game than any of the Call of Duty's any day.

Anyway's that's my 2 cents. Hopefully you can make sense of it. My grammar / punctuation is pretty awful.

Posted by GoofyGoober
@Vortextk: LOL same here.
Posted by Demoskinos

@BoomSnapClap113: I think from a consumer point of view we have every right to buy used. But at the same time developers have every right to try whatever they can do do get people to keep the games.

Edited by ProfessorEss
@BoomSnapClap113 said:

Wait. Are you saying that Gamestop has the right to sell someone else's product 3,4,5 maybe even 6 times over and not give anything to the game devs / publishers. 

But it's not the dev/pub's property. 
It belongs to the person who bought it. 
 
...for the time being anyways, I'm sure they're working on fixing that.
Posted by jeffb01

Here's an easy way to cut out the used market - put it on psn for whatever you want to charge.  problem solved. Of course - those two million sold thingie isn't going to happen. Part of the value of a game is the ability to lend it out, resell it, etc.  Heavy Rain, in particular, is a game I keep so I can lend it out.  I think it's such a engrossing unique experience - Of course this guy counts those trophy winning lendees lost sales, but those guys weren't going to buy it - hell, they didn't even know what it was. 
 
Now maybe if they made a sequel, these people who bought used or rented it would buy it new at launch - who knows. 
 
What I do know is that all this talk and complaining about used sales, as well as project $10, etc is really just preparing us for the near future where you won't be able to rent or buy games used (think pc games). They obviously have the technology. Hell, Rage cuts out part of the single player experience unless you buy new or buy some kind of pass (I'm used to calling them online passes, but this isn't online)...

Posted by Mechanized

Suck it up bitch.

Edited by NellyK

@Xer0Signal: Who cares if they don't choose the price. My point was David Cage and Quantic Dream still expect us to pony up 60 bucks for their game upon release. I don't know why they're bitching now. They probably got a boatload of money to get into bed with Sony in the first place.

Posted by Meowayne

But it's not the dev/pub's property. 
It belongs to the person who bought it. 

No. When you buy software, you buy a piece of physical storage medium and a license to use the software. The game itself is never your property, only the disc is. 
This distinction is important for companies' (sometimes successful) attempts to challenge end users' intent of selling the license to third parties.
Posted by Xpgamer7

I think he's trying to say "Games should be cheaper, so that people can afford to buy games like mine new. This way people won't need to buy used games, and 'll make money off that fact."

Of course this is only true to a degree as used games will always be cheaper and there will(at least in the present) always be that market.