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Posted by ThePickle

I think my favorite thing about this blog is how he tries to sound better than all of us despite the fact that he's probably more ignorant than the average Call of Duty player. Play some fucking games before you critique them and the people playing them so heavily.

Edited by ArbitraryWater

Wow. I always thought you were a smug condescending asshole, but this pretty much cements that assumption. I could write a lengthy reply why you're wrong, but there are plenty of other posts that do that already.

Posted by Oldirtybearon

Stories in games can (and some do) have the same or greater depth as film or literature because you're assuming a role. You're not watching or reading about someone else's adventure, you're experiencing one for yourself. As such you don't need as much of the basic structure for the traditional narrative because it'll all be experienced through contextual gameplay. Half-Life 2 is often cited as having a fantastic story for this reason. If you distill it down to "shooting from A to B" then you're doing yourself and the fiction a disservice. You're ignoring all of the nuances in the game world that fully flesh out the environment and the characters around you. In essence, you're essentially watching a film with the volume off and no subtitles. Sure you can follow the moving pictures and get the gist, but you're not getting the whole experience.

Mass Effect is another example of a fully realized world with interesting characters that the OP shat on because "hey shit gets shot". He's ignoring everything else the series has to offer, both in the extensive world fiction as well as the narrative you follow with the fantastically realized characters around you. Or, hey, how about Gears of War? That's a series a lot of gamers deride for having a "dudebro" attitude and character design that is ripped right out of a comic book. They don't bother to take a moment and soak in what the world is or why the characters are behaving the way they do because it takes more analysis than going "oh look a Locust, I wanna chainsaw him!". Gears of War isn't about shooting as much as it's about the pain of loss. It's a fiction about an entire species at the end of its life and that species' unwillingness to give in to the inevitable end. But hey, why explore those themes or think about what they mean to you when one can just ignore it and continue ranting and raving about how the characters resemble the assholes who stuffed them into lockers in high school.

Games can and do tell good stories. They just don't tell them in the spoon-fed, passive way that films do. The sooner people can wrap their heads around this simple concept the sooner we can put this "games can't tell stories" shit to bed. Hopefully along with the OP, who is honestly in the wrong fucking hobby.

Posted by Tru3_Blu3

The game industry is in a bleak dark age at the moment. Before 2008, stuff was all well and good, and you can see a promising gleam of hope in the future. Sadly, once DLC and sequelitis contaminated the market to cater and persuade to the new, ill-minded audience, innovation has reached a large, steel wall that can only be ripped open by an uncommon meteor, and that meteor isn't going to crash down for a few years. Developers WANT to make cool shit, but they're limited to the business end of the spectrum, degrading any sense of ambition and imagination that they truly have as artistic human beings. While I do enjoy games, I am having the inclination you're having where I can't seem to enjoy games without them having a riveting, well-woven story that ends beautifully and makes you think. However, these things are seldom.

Posted by xMP44x

@KingWilly said:

Games can and do tell good stories. They just don't tell them in the spoon-fed, passive way that films do. The sooner people can wrap their heads around this simple concept the sooner we can put this "games can't tell stories" shit to bed. Hopefully along with the OP, who is honestly in the wrong fucking hobby.

They do tell good stories, but I enjoy the manner in which a film tells the story. It doesn't expect you to assume a role, and depending on how a novel is written, it doesn't expect you to assume a role and fill some hole in the game universe either. I like seeing how stories are told in a number of different mediums, but that doesn't stop me believing that for the best grade of story, a novel remains the way to go. It gives you a better sense of everything than gameplay at times, because it is not tied down to an engine or anything like that. Games can tell stories, and I will agree here. Depending on how the game chooses to tell the story though, it can dilute the experience. Take, for example, Red Dead Redemption. Wonderful game, undoubtedly, but it didn't need a morality feature. It allowed you to deviate too much from the story of redemption that the game was selling you.

You make a few good points however, and I never honestly considered Gears of War in any meaningful manner. Even now I don't really, but at least I have some food for thought. To me ti seems like there is a good story behind it all, but it's veneered with characters with overly inflated personalities where they cease to be human. I've never considered it as being about humanity not wanting to just die away either, so that's another interesting point you raise. It doesn't seem to be like that, but I can see what you're getting at. To me, it always seemed more like humanity overstepped itself and unleashed something superior upon itself. Not superior in intellect, granted, but superior in numbers and willingness to continue to fight many long years after war began.

Posted by Oldirtybearon

@xMP44x: If I offended by saying "spoon-fed" then I apologize. That wasn't my intent, but my obvious anger got the better of me when I should've used a more diplomatic term for my meaning.

Undoubtedly RDR's biggest problem was the morality bar, and I'm not being cute, either. It was single handedly the dumbest thing Rockstar could've added, and the disconnect people felt between the role they played (if they were a murdering bandit) and the tale of redemption Rockstar crafted was more a chasm than a plot hole. You could choose to play it the "correct" way, I suppose (I did, anyhow), but that didn't fix the issue. It would've been ballsier to not allow Marston to murder and pillage the same way he refused hookers when they propositioned him. If it doesn't fit the character and their quest, don't implement it. That's my stance, anyhow.

As for your talk of Gears, it's something I hear a lot. A lot of people look at the dystopian aesthetic of Gears and make assumptions. They don't bother to think about the world itself or why you're fighting the Locust horde. The only problem with your interpretation of events is that the humans didn't bring the Locust up to the surface. One day, they just showed up. We know from Gears 2 it's because they had been losing a war with the Lambent and that pushed them to the surface. When Locust met humans, Locust started killing humans. From that series of events, I can't really seem to connect the dots from being the recipient of an unprovoked attack and bringing it upon yourself. If you're referring to humanity's rampant greed over Immulsion resources then I suppose you could argue that, but I find it a tenuous connection at best.

And really, I thought it was obvious what the story was about. I'm not trying to sound conceited or arrogant, but I thought Gears of War smacked it in your face that Jacinto was the last city full of human beings (20,000 strong, according to fiction), and that the Locust had all but won the war in the 15 years since E-Day. Patrick Klepek used the term "intelligent cockroaches" to describe the human survivors in Resistance 3. It's not entirely accurate for Gears of War, but I feel that the shoe definitely fits to a degree.

Posted by ProfessorEss

Videogames are barely older than I am, and unlike television and movies they didn't have the benefit of being able to work off as much of the groundwork that was laid down by literature. I think a lot of the time we just expect too much from a medium that is still so young and so different.

Posted by xMP44x

@KingWilly said:

@xMP44x: If I offended by saying "spoon-fed" then I apologize. That wasn't my intent, but my obvious anger got the better of me when I should've used a more diplomatic term for my meaning.

Undoubtedly RDR's biggest problem was the morality bar, and I'm not being cute, either. It was single handedly the dumbest thing Rockstar could've added, and the disconnect people felt between the role they played (if they were a murdering bandit) and the tale of redemption Rockstar crafted was more a chasm than a plot hole. You could choose to play it the "correct" way, I suppose (I did, anyhow), but that didn't fix the issue. It would've been ballsier to not allow Marston to murder and pillage the same way he refused hookers when they propositioned him. If it doesn't fit the character and their quest, don't implement it. That's my stance, anyhow.

As for your talk of Gears, it's something I hear a lot. A lot of people look at the dystopian aesthetic of Gears and make assumptions. They don't bother to think about the world itself or why you're fighting the Locust horde. The only problem with your interpretation of events is that the humans didn't bring the Locust up to the surface. One day, they just showed up. We know from Gears 2 it's because they had been losing a war with the Lambent and that pushed them to the surface. When Locust met humans, Locust started killing humans. From that series of events, I can't really seem to connect the dots from being the recipient of an unprovoked attack and bringing it upon yourself. If you're referring to humanity's rampant greed over Immulsion resources then I suppose you could argue that, but I find it a tenuous connection at best.

And really, I thought it was obvious what the story was about. I'm not trying to sound conceited or arrogant, but I thought Gears of War smacked it in your face that Jacinto was the last city full of human beings (20,000 strong, according to fiction), and that the Locust had all but won the war in the 15 years since E-Day. Patrick Klepek used the term "intelligent cockroaches" to describe the human survivors in Resistance 3. It's not entirely accurate for Gears of War, but I feel that the shoe definitely fits to a degree.

I wasn't offended by saying 'spoon-fed', but I found it an interesting explanation seeing as movies were previously the de facto alternative to writing a novel. I'm glad someone else agrees about the Red Dead Redemption morality bar. While an extreme possibility I honestly don't think it would have been a bad idea to stop you shooting civilians altogether.

I noticed the dystopian aesthetic of Gears of War, and I liked that. I never considered the world in the games because it never seemed particularly deep. It's just a backdrop to the macho guys, or so it always appeared. My understanding of the Locust was that the Lambent turned against the normal Horde because of their exposure to Immulsion, not that they had been at war since before then. You're the more knowledgeable here on the Gears of War lore, though, so I can understand your thoughts behind the series. I have a fair feeling you're right, but I keep an open mind for other interpretations as well, hence how my own understanding came into existence.

Posted by Skullo

Well, golly, a jaded gamer. I don't think I ever saw one of those types.

While you do have some points in that blog post, you miss the point of video games in general.

Because I don't have a Xbox360/PS3/High powered PC, I normally play Wii games or old PC games if I'm in the mood. From what I've played of the Wii games I have, the point to them isn't the graphics or cinematics. The point is storyline and gameplay mechanics. Take RE4 for example. If you generalize it enough, you could say that RE4 is like the movie "Taken" only if it was from Capcom. While the graphics were great for that game were great looking, it was the gameplay mechanics and controls that made it great. The story wasn't very touching, it was just some secret service guy shooting a bunch of infected villagers and had some great boss encounters to go with it. It's easy to say that RE4 is a damsel in distress kinda of game. But you're gleaming over the nuances of how great that game is. While I may say in this post that RE4 is Taken with the Umbrella Corp and infected villages and a cult. You can actually make a point that RE4 is actually tribute to the action movies of old. It's a valid point. You don't play RE4 for the story. You play it because it's a great third person shooter and revolutionized TPS games in general.

You have to realize that for most people who don't go on GB and post, people play games to have fun. People complain about the Wii Library being filled with waggle fest mini game collections. People buy those game because they are fun and have no story to worry about so the average person can just play to their heart's content. People also buy games with stories because they want escapism from their crappy lives. They want a sense that they have control of their own fate in that world. People play dudebro games and open world games because they want to explore that game and find all the nooks and crannies in it. Why the fuck should you call corridor shooters lowest common demonator when people of all walks of lives from hard core to the causual will play those games because they're actually fun!

People like you, OP, should really fuck off and shit in someone's stew for awhile. Just because you got college education or whatever higher education you call it and you are "enlightened" to the ways of the gaming world, doesn't mean you aren't a complete arrogant pretentious fuck who thinks gaming companies should carter to their needs.

Edited by loopy_101

It has always been that way. Games do vary though if you know what you're looking for. I'm sure people have already given you recommendations so I won't further insult your intelligence by suggesting anything else but you should have a look at other areas of gaming. Casual, indie and strategy games all have strong followings and offer immersive play worlds much unlike the titles you mentioned. Otherwise your generalisations are harsh and misinformed.

Posted by Oldirtybearon

@loopy_101: The OP is a self-professed troll who only hangs around Giant Bomb so he can, and I quote, "provoke the asps". Asps of course is his contraction of "Aspergers". As in people with "Aspergers Syndrome". Real charming, classy individual.

Posted by GreggD

@KingWilly: Loopy is a buddy of mine, and we both know what Asps means, all too well.

Also, the fucking title of this blog is the worst thing about it. I'm surprised it hasn't been talked about more already.

Posted by Oldirtybearon

@GreggD: My condolences to whoever you know with Aspergers. One of my best friends has it, and it's difficult, to say the least.

As for the blog, my guess is this whirlwind of bullshit just caught most of the readers off guard. There was a lot of bullshit to sift through and tackle before you got to the title. In all honesty, it's the least offensive thing in the entire diatribe.

Posted by Napalm

@HandsomeDevil said:

I think my favorite thing about this blog is how he tries to sound better than all of us despite the fact that he's probably more ignorant than the average Call of Duty player. Play some fucking games before you critique them and the people playing them so heavily.

aka I THINK YOU'RE WRONG, BUT I CAN'T BACK IT UP CAUSE IM ANGRY!

Also, don't you know that you're not allowed any sort of opinion that deviates from the popular one?

Posted by AlexW00d

I really didn't realise there were so many fucking idiots on this site?! Why has everyone 'fallen' for the post and provided exactly what was expected? You can't call someone a troll and then rise to their bait, that's just moronic.

I agree with HD on a lot of points, and, unlike a lot of people, don't get offended when people compare videogames to films or books.

Posted by ThePickle

@Napalm said:

@HandsomeDevil said:

I think my favorite thing about this blog is how he tries to sound better than all of us despite the fact that he's probably more ignorant than the average Call of Duty player. Play some fucking games before you critique them and the people playing them so heavily.

aka I THINK YOU'RE WRONG, BUT I CAN'T BACK IT UP CAUSE IM ANGRY!

Also, don't you know that you're not allowed any sort of opinion that deviates from the popular one?

I was saying all of the games he mentioned were the ones you'd know about even if you didn't go to GiantBomb. I'd hate to use words like "mainstream" or "AAA", but they fit well here. Giving up games entirely because the popular ones are derivative is ignorant. Dig a little deeper. Also, he's criticizing games he's never played, which is always a cool thing to do. Assuming so little of the fan base, that we're all nerds who never talk to girls, read books, or do anything outside of playing video games is cool too. If he weren't a Canadian I'd think HandsomeDead worked for FOX News.

Posted by GreggD

@KingWilly said:

@GreggD: My condolences to whoever you know with Aspergers. One of my best friends has it, and it's difficult, to say the least.

As for the blog, my guess is this whirlwind of bullshit just caught most of the readers off guard. There was a lot of bullshit to sift through and tackle before you got to the title. In all honesty, it's the least offensive thing in the entire diatribe.

I guess. And I don't just know someone with Asperger's Syndrome, I actually have been diagnosed with it. Yes, it can be hard.

Posted by PrivateIronTFU

@KingWilly said:

@loopy_101: The OP is a self-professed troll who only hangs around Giant Bomb so he can, and I quote, "provoke the asps". Asps of course is his contraction of "Aspergers". As in people with "Aspergers Syndrome". Real charming, classy individual.

Holy shit. What a dickish thing to say.

Posted by Skullo

@HandsomeDead said:

The one that really sticks with me is Capcom and their treatment of Resident Evil. Sure, Resident Evil 5 was garbage and, yeah, Resident Evil 6 will appear by 2013 with a clone of Wesker and we’ll all shoot not-quite zombies as they run at you, then walk, giving you enough time to shoot them while you stand in place all over again. I can accept that because I can accept that video games, particularly of Japanese origin, are a business ran on enticing the lowest common denominator. I can even accept that I got sucked into a shitty mythos because, at the time, it was pretty much the only franchise that actually had one. What bothers me is the obvious fact that no one at Capcom gives any kind of shit about the quality of the material they produce.

Much like the progression I detailed earlier, the gap between each succeeding Resident Evil game was just large enough to convince by 8 to 15 year old self that each game was bigger and better than the last, but when the finale arrived, it was 2009 and not only was the game a piece of shit, it retroactively made the earlier games shit too - shitter than they actually are, which is really shit. MGS4 managed to at least make an effort at tying all the strings back together for a satisfying finale. After games upon games of Solid Snake and Revolver Ocelot revolving like a helix around the events of that franchise, giving them one last sunset was awesome. Conflict that with blowing up Wesker in a volcano after 50% more games with no real rhyme or reason and you’ve just failed an entire generation of people who played it. No one at Capcom knows how to tell a story and I payed hundreds of pounds to find that out.

Please, call me naive as much as you want. I am the idiot for trying to justify my money. I am the idiot for wanting some drama in my investments. I am the idiot who wants to be entertained on a higher level than just shooting zombies again. I am the idiot who thought that maybe there was a direction to the whole thing. I am the idiot who saw a good face/heel dynamic in the straight laced Chris Redfield and the theatrical Albert Wesker. I am the idiot who thought at least one person employed by Capcom’s creative department was actually creative. I am the idiot who thought at least one person in Capcom’s creative department could tell a simple story. I am the idiot who liked Resident Evil, but you’re the idiot who will buy Resident Evil 6 and say ‘Well, all I wanted to do was shoot zombies and that’s what it did. 10/10.’

It’s not just constrained to Capcom and it’s murky schoolgirl-fucking tentacles that have spread to other parts of the world. It’s not even just Japan. It may be worse there than in American and European games development, but it seems like no company in video games has any higher aspiration than making something for a 14 year old boy. You can throw BioShock - a game that’s half a decade old - at me here but above it’s lethargic and totally average shooting mechanics is only a strawman response to Ayn Rand, an author you probably have never actually read, which probably explains the high praise. Then there’s maybe, what? I’m genuinely struggling to think of anything to actually counter my own argument. Persona, maybe, in its whole tragic underbelly of how making friends and talking to girls can give you some kind of believe-in-yourself magical power but that seems more for the lonely proto-Japanese than a normal, functioning human being.

First of all, you just Gaming hipster'd yourself stupid with 4 paragraphs holy shit.

Then you just said the Resident Evil game storyline was complete shit and then you heaped praise on MGS4 for ending the series

You do realized that the storylines for both game series are just a damned joke and are tribute games. When sales got hot, they decided to make more of them.

The cognitive dissonance in the above paragraphs is amazing.

and then you insulted Resident Evil 6 while not knowing a damn thing about it or even playing it. Boy, you sure making the "Hipster Douche" work for ya!

Because wanting to just shoot zombies every now and then is just so damn low brow.

and then you went on to insult BioShock and Persona, You are so hipster it fucking hurts.

Posted by Skullo

@GreggD said:

@KingWilly said:

@GreggD: My condolences to whoever you know with Aspergers. One of my best friends has it, and it's difficult, to say the least.

As for the blog, my guess is this whirlwind of bullshit just caught most of the readers off guard. There was a lot of bullshit to sift through and tackle before you got to the title. In all honesty, it's the least offensive thing in the entire diatribe.

I guess. And I don't just know someone with Asperger's Syndrome, I actually have been diagnosed with it. Yes, it can be hard.

I actually trying to find out If I have this as well. For reasons I won't explain here. But it wouldn't surprise me if a doctor analyzed me and said "There's 99 percent chance you have Aspergers."

Posted by GreggD

@Skullo: The worst thing about it, for me, is that I didn't get diagnosed with it until my mid-teens. So all of my development had already pretty much happened, and at no point in the process was I guided into a lot of the social stuff that goes along with it. I've had to adjust and learn a lot over the past decade, almost.

Posted by Skullo

@GreggD said:

@Skullo: The worst thing about it, for me, is that I didn't get diagnosed with it until my mid-teens. So all of my development had already pretty much happened, and at no point in the process was I guided into a lot of the social stuff that goes along with it. I've had to adjust and learn a lot over the past decade, almost.

The worst part of Asperger is that once you have that label on you, almost everything you do is labled aspergery and you can never escape it. No matter how hard you try to do escape it, you can't. It's horrible. And then there's the paranoia of not knowing if what you do is aspergers related or not. Awful.

Posted by loopy_101

@GreggD said:

@KingWilly: Loopy is a buddy of mine, and we both know what Asps means, all too well.

Also, the fucking title of this blog is the worst thing about it. I'm surprised it hasn't been talked about more already.

Gregg is correct. I don't think it was appropriate for you to say that either, sarcastic or not.

Posted by GreggD

@Skullo said:

@GreggD said:

@Skullo: The worst thing about it, for me, is that I didn't get diagnosed with it until my mid-teens. So all of my development had already pretty much happened, and at no point in the process was I guided into a lot of the social stuff that goes along with it. I've had to adjust and learn a lot over the past decade, almost.

The worst part of Asperger is that once you have that label on you, almost everything you do is labled aspergery and you can never escape it. No matter how hard you try to do escape it, you can't. It's horrible. And then there's the paranoia of not knowing if what you do is aspergers related or not. Awful.

I haven't really run into any of that labeling. People I meet are usually pretty chill about the whole thing, once they find out.

Edited by Skullo

@GreggD said:

@Skullo said:

@GreggD said:

@Skullo: The worst thing about it, for me, is that I didn't get diagnosed with it until my mid-teens. So all of my development had already pretty much happened, and at no point in the process was I guided into a lot of the social stuff that goes along with it. I've had to adjust and learn a lot over the past decade, almost.

The worst part of Asperger is that once you have that label on you, almost everything you do is labled aspergery and you can never escape it. No matter how hard you try to do escape it, you can't. It's horrible. And then there's the paranoia of not knowing if what you do is aspergers related or not. Awful.

I haven't really run into any of that labeling. People I meet are usually pretty chill about the whole thing, once they find out.

It's something I've noticed on the Internet for awhile. Show any kind of passion and care about anything weird and the ignorant come out of the wood work to use spergy as their weapon of choice. It kinda pisses me off. Because not only I'm trying to find out if I'am one or not, I actually know people who are aspergers but don't realize it. It's like people of the internet either don't remember or forgot that there was a time when the Internet/Video Games was a thing to judge a person a nerd if they use it. Now almost everybody has the Internet/games on their phone or laptop/desktop and nerds/geeks redefined the word into something awesome. :I

Edited by Turambar

I really am laughing at your edit in removing the hyperlink you had up for "lonely, proto-japanese." If you're going to be a dick, at least have the spine to follow through and maintain it.

Addressing the blog post itself, it was well written and I liked it, though I don't really agree with said points. It feels like you require all games to be a meaningful insight into the human condition. To put it more plainly, you approach every game like you were an Extra Credits episode, and denounce any game that does not fit the requirements. While lofty, that philosophy on media misses a very basic mark. Art, no matter the form, is still entertainment on a basic level. It's a fact true for any media no matter how high brow or low. A painting still needs to be visually appealing even if that appeal is through its active lack of such a thing. And videos games can still be worth it even if its appeal depends on the act of shooting and cuting guys if the basic mechanic of shooting and cutting is enjoyable to the player.

Your entire rant reads like you've lacked any real passion for any portion of video games from the get-go. Others go "All right, I get to do what I loved before again." You go "I did it already. I don't want to do it again." Yes, this statement is in support of fanboyism, and I will accept any flack that that opinion lands me. But I fully embrace this definition of a fanboy: A fanboy is not blind, but too willing to love and forgive. The ability to be a fanboy is the ability to gain the most amount of joy out of something. I am a Super Robot Wars fanboy, and the interactivity between characters from various shows is delicious, and the reason I keep going back. I do not deny the stagnation of the gameplay, the poor pacing in multiple games, etc. But it is all forgiven because I am a fanboy for seeing Shinji slapping Kira in the face, Bright-style. I am a fanboy for hearing Yzak demand to see the Turn X's Shining Finger because he shares a voice actor with Domon Kasshu. But you lack that drive. And so faults jump out faster and sharper than others. Having nothing that you enjoy without question, you seem to question and become ambivalent at best about everything. Not to say that attitude is wrong, but reading this entire post has me feeling pretty sorry for you. You come off as someone that seems incapable of enjoying anything in the long run.

Posted by Skullo

@Turambar said:

I. Having nothing that you enjoy without question, you seem to question and become ambivalent at best about everything. Not to say that attitude is wrong, but reading this entire post has me feeling pretty sorry for you. You come off as someone that seems incapable of enjoying anything in the long run.

Nicely said.

Posted by Turambar

@Hailinel said:

@DonPixel said:

It always baffles me people looking for "dept" and "good story telling" in video games, I'm not saying is not possible but common there is Literature and Filmmaking both way a better medium for that.

I do care more about gameplay thou as some people has stated you should go look into Rock of Ages or the crazy amount of indie games at steam and xbox live.

There's absolutely room for good storytelling in video games. There are numerous games that actually do tell good stories.

I think it would me more accurate to say that there are games with good stories. But their telling of them is what is still lacking.

Posted by Yummylee

@Turambar said:

I really am laughing at your edit in removing the hyperlink you had up for "lonely, proto-japanese." If you're going to be a dick, at least have the spine to follow through and maintain it.

It was most probably a mod. HandsomeDead of all people doesn't strike me as someone to step down from his needless remarks/negative references - especially when directed at Hailinel since I've noticed he's had a hard-on for him for quite a time now.

Anywhoo kinda douchy blog; understandable points made non-the-less (especially during the RE5 segment); obvious shooter fatigue is obvious; start playing a larger diversity of games ect ect.

Posted by ShiftyMagician

Stop with the immature linkage of users with insulting descriptors as it really ruins the blog. I do agree with the fundamental aspects which is why I make sure I play a ton of different games to combat it. Also thankfully some games are immune to the issues you presented.

I don't expect a compelling narrative for Trackmania 2, FEZ or And Yet It Moves. I just expect them to do something hardly many games do these days because of the publisher's need to get a piece of the mainstream pie. However that doesn't mean I wouldn't love one day for a bunch of games with actually well-written narratives to finally come about when the gaming industry has matured enough. Who wouldn't love to play a game with an amazingly written story? (PS. I do enjoy some stories in games currently but cmon, hardly any are anything to write home to)

Posted by DonPixel

@Turambar said:

@Hailinel said:

@DonPixel said:

It always baffles me people looking for "dept" and "good story telling" in video games, I'm not saying is not possible but common there is Literature and Filmmaking both way a better medium for that.

I do care more about gameplay thou as some people has stated you should go look into Rock of Ages or the crazy amount of indie games at steam and xbox live.

There's absolutely room for good storytelling in video games. There are numerous games that actually do tell good stories.

I think it would me more accurate to say that there are games with good stories. But their telling of them is what is still lacking.

Yoo dude tanks my english sucks but that was what I've been trying to say +1 to you

Posted by FancySoapsMan

You certainly are a good troll.

Posted by HandsomeDead

@Abyssfull said:

@Turambar said:

I really am laughing at your edit in removing the hyperlink you had up for "lonely, proto-japanese." If you're going to be a dick, at least have the spine to follow through and maintain it.

It was most probably a mod.

It was. Though, at least you all still know what - who - it means. In general, thanks for some of your messages, some of you know what's up; others, I don't know if you actually read it.

Posted by mylifeforAiur

Familiarity is comforting; habitual acts are safe and reliable - and most often, sustainable. 

Posted by Hailinel

@HandsomeDead said:

@Abyssfull said:

@Turambar said:

I really am laughing at your edit in removing the hyperlink you had up for "lonely, proto-japanese." If you're going to be a dick, at least have the spine to follow through and maintain it.

It was most probably a mod.

It was. Though, at least you all still know what - who - it means. In general, thanks for some of your messages, some of you know what's up; others, I don't know if you actually read it.

That you go out of your way to attack me or anyone else without provocation in a diatribe of a blog post regardless of how passive-aggressive your tactic is pretty low.

Posted by LordXavierBritish
Posted by NathHaw

@HandsomeDead: I'll keep it short. I happen to think that you are one of the smartest users active on the forums. Like you, I haven't had quite the passion for playing video games lately that I did when I was a kid. Sometimes it feels like a job or a hobby I'm obligated to maintain. I would say that my passion for video game knowledge is bigger than ever though.

I wish you had used discretion in some of your links. Sometimes expressing everything you're thinking isn't necessary.

Posted by Afroman269

This blog is fantastic. Looking forward to your future ones.

Posted by SeriouslyNow

@DonPixel said:

@SeriouslyNow said:

The problem with Icemael's point of view is that allows for the same old tired mechanics over context issue to pervade. Sure, games need to be playable and to have interesting, well thought out mechanics and challenging situations to experience but they also, some would say more importantly (and I would tend to agree), need to tell great stories. When games fail to have logical or even marginally interesting character arcs or when they have interesting character arcs which aren't properly explored it kills the narrative process and thereby negates any possible nature of proper context for many people (myself included) which often kills the whole process of immersion along with the death of the narrative I was trying to follow and maintain an interest in.

Narrative is important and it's no longer good enough to say gameplay is king and just leave it at that. If gameplay is king then narrative is queen and you need both rulers in play for games to evolve past the simple experiences most are even in these supposedly enlightened times wrt gaming. It's not enough for game companies to employ famous Hollywood and TV writers to craft the fictions which spawn the worlds we play, they also need to use these writers to shape a convincing narrative path (or multiple set of paths as the case may be) which doesn't fall prey to all of the common tropes of game narrative and, rather, allows the player to become deeply entrenched in some of the deeper explorations of the narrative process which good literature, visual and aural mediums aside from games often go into in ways games rarely do.

Icemael's description of overcoming a challenge is something more akin to a sporting or testing achievement and while it certainly has its place in the game experience games need to reach beyond such rudimentary processes if they are to truly evolve and make use of the real time context of theatrics which they can technically offer.

I've never been "touched" by the passionate events and incredible character development and performance of Digital Puppets in video games, perhaps the tech is still not there, perhaps a human face actually acting and sharing emotions in film and teather has spoiled me, or perhaps you can pretty much summarize 95% of videogame "story arcs" in a paragraph.

but yeah I said it before and I said it again, people looking for "dept" storytelling in videogames are doing it wrong. Videogames are in the realm of "GAMES" games a good medium to create emotions by interaction such as: overcoming challenges, competition, discovery, social play etc.. In short videogames like games belongs to the realm of DOING and certainly can do some mediocre TELLING (Makarov I'm looking at you), asking for a Haruki Murakami's After Dark Psychological thriller in a video game seems to me like asking for a leaderboard in an Andrei Tarkovsky film.

We don't need such binary answers here, it's not a matter of gameplay or storytelling, it can be gameplay and storytelling. Game developers are trying to tell stories, they're just not doing it very effectively for the most part. Most games break some of the most basic tenets of storytelling and that has nothing whatsoever to do with the technology available to them. Cartoons and comics have been effectively telling stories for a long time so video games can too (and in some cases they do, even Ultima VI tells a better story than most modern games). Tech isn't the issue.

Posted by Turambar

@HandsomeDead said:

@Abyssfull said:

@Turambar said:

I really am laughing at your edit in removing the hyperlink you had up for "lonely, proto-japanese." If you're going to be a dick, at least have the spine to follow through and maintain it.

It was most probably a mod.

It was. Though, at least you all still know what - who - it means. In general, thanks for some of your messages, some of you know what's up; others, I don't know if you actually read it.

Actually the only reason I knew who it was directed to was because the unedited version was quoted earlier in the thread out of derision. If you think your description actually somehow accurately describes anyone, you have a long way to go.

Posted by Sander

Poor writing is a given when you learn a little about Gears of War 3 writer Karen Traviss
"I don’t read novels. I’m a novelist, but I don’t read. I don’t like reading. I love comics. I love reading comics. I can still read comics and write, just about."

Posted by Oni

@Icemael said:

Your problem is very simple: you are focusing almost entirely on narrative and themes, as if nothing else could possibly elicit an emotional response.

In video games I derive pleasure first from mechanics (learning a new system, solving a tricky puzzle, dodging a tough attack pattern -- basically, overcoming challenges of different kinds), then from aesthetics (good music, gratifying sound effects, beautiful environments, cool-looking enemies -- anything that is pleasing to the eyes or the ears), and then from story. Similar things apply for most gamers. A fair amount prioritize aesthetics over mechanics, but very few put story at the top. Because of this, mechanics and aesthetics are what developers focus on evolving, while little to no development occurs in the field of video game narratives.

This does not mean that video games are banal, or that video game enthusiasts have no appreciation for storytelling. All it means that in this particular art form, other aspects take precedence. (They do this, if you haven't already figured it out, by creating stronger emotional responses. As an example: I recently overcame a particularly hard challenge in Espgaluda II, which I had been stuck at for months, and I was fucking trembling with tension, excitement and joy. No book, film or TV show has ever had a comparable effect on me.)

I read the OP and died a little inside, then I read this and my heart was lifted. Simply put, I turn to non-interactive media when I want to be swept up in a thrilling narrative. I turn to videogames when I want to engage my senses. But really, the thing I love most about games is being immersed in a different time and place. It doesn't matter to me if the story is not top flight if I can suspend my disbelief and be someone, somewhere completely different. And then there are games like Heavy Rain, which take a simple thriller story and make it so much more emotionally engaging because of the interactivity and player agency. I love video games. I don't love Call of Duty, and how the primary method of interaction with the world in most games involves guns or other weapons. Baby steps, though.

Posted by EuanDewar

Heavy Rain is not a quality product.

Posted by Fizzy

Extra cheese! Why'd you have to go and make me so constipated...How was I supposed to know we were both related! :/

It's your fault.

Edited by Oni

@EuanDewar: I disagree! We can do that. Stating your opinion as a fact is a cool thing on the internet, I get that too, but that doesn't make it true.

Posted by Fizzy

@EuanDewar said:

Heavy Rain is not a quality product.

I thought it was a pretty good interactive movie! >:{

Posted by EuanDewar
@Oni If I have to follow everything with "en mi opinion" then I would just give up on this shit.
Posted by Ramone

Blockbuster games are very similar to blockbuster movies. When they're good they're big dumb fun when they're not they're just dumb. You can't go into a game such as Call Of Duty and expect the storytelling to be amazing because the developers/publishers know that the game will sell regardless, why waste time and money on something which isn't going to be appreciated. However games do have one thing over movies, when the story fails there are the gameplay mechanics to fall back on.

Posted by Matoya

@Hailinel said:

@HandsomeDead said:

@Abyssfull said:

@Turambar said:

I really am laughing at your edit in removing the hyperlink you had up for "lonely, proto-japanese." If you're going to be a dick, at least have the spine to follow through and maintain it.

It was most probably a mod.

It was. Though, at least you all still know what - who - it means. In general, thanks for some of your messages, some of you know what's up; others, I don't know if you actually read it.

That you go out of your way to attack me or anyone else without provocation in a diatribe of a blog post regardless of how passive-aggressive your tactic is pretty low.

He's an anonymous person on the internet, that you will never meet in your life. What he says does not affect you, ever. Why do you care so much?

Posted by sissylion

@EuanDewar said:

@Oni If I have to follow everything with "en mi opinion" then I would just give up on this shit.

"IMO" is the worst part of the internet.