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Posted by Master_Prophet

Like it or not, a storm is brewing, and one that is likely to impact gamers everywhere in a negative light. That storm would be the on-going battle for used game sales and DRM. With every new day bringing on the potential rumors of the next generation of consoles blocking used games, the war for this seems to be seeping through at every corner. But just why should this be allowed? Where is there an underlining rule that says used games are bad for business?

I heard an interesting analogy the other day, and I think it fits this argument wonderfully: a company doesn't get paid twice when a used car is sold, so why should a game developer and publisher get paid twice when their game sells? This is an excellent argument, and I agree with this 100%. Why should developers be given even more money? When their game launches, and its a relatively big title, why should they be paid twice? Skyrim, Mass Effect 3, Gears of War 3, all of these did exceptionally well when they were released. Why should these companies get paid again when this game sells at a used game store? That is how companies like Gamestop make their money, so if we block used game usage, then this is a gigantic nail in the coffin for companies like gamestop.

Gamer's are generally not wealthy people. For me personally, I have to really factor a new game purchase well, because I don't want to waste $60 - $70 on a game that might potentially suck. My most recent example of this would be Resident Evil: Operation Raccoon City. I owned that game for a grand total of six hours, and until I saw the horrible reviews, I finally returned it and ended up picking a different game up instead. Now, in a situation like that, yes reviews saved me there, but what about the good old method of trying a game out and returning it because you didn't like it? I can name countless times I've picked up a used game, tried it out, and returned it (or even the good old fashioned video game rental). This kind of thing will go down the tube fast if Microsoft and Sony decide to block used games.

Sure, we've already begun to see the downside of this with Online passes. I also hate the idea of this because if you want to let a friend borrow a game, then you simply have to buy the online pass, and that's like spending another ten dollars on something you already spent full price on (if you picked this up used that is).

Now no, I don't hate game developers. I just feel that a sense of greed is starting to become overwhelming in the games marketplace. With 2013 ramping up to most likely be the inevitable launch of new consoles, I for one hope that this used game, DRM business gets subsided. Plus we all know in the end, Gamestop will probably pay a large sum of money under the table to these compaines to keep this blocking used game business at bay. I just don't see a company like Gamestop rolling over and dying anytime soon.

Edited by Daneian

@Master_Prophet said:

I heard an interesting analogy the other day, and I think it fits this argument wonderfully: a company doesn't get paid twice when a used car is sold, so why should a game developer and publisher get paid twice when their game sells? This is an excellent argument, and I agree with this 100%. Why should developers be given even more money

People don't go through one car a week.

Now no, I don't hate game developers. I just feel that a sense of greed is starting to become overwhelming in the games marketplace.

Games cost millions and millions to make and then a single copy makes $60 despite said copy being bought five times. People don't buy games, company stops making them.

Posted by BonOrbitz

I'm not getting a sense of greed in the gaming marketplace just yet. Paying $60 once a month for a new game isn't all that bad considering we have so many resources for reviews before we decide to make the purchase and it's not such a terrible leap from what games cost in the 90s. Nowadays, new game prices drop so quickly it's helpful to have a good dose of patience.

What sucks is having to pre-order a game because you want a cool bonus and you are unsure about the quality ahead of time.

I am concerned, however, about next gen systems locking out used games altogether. I buy a decent amount of new games when they're released and when they're reduced in price, but I do purchase a lot of used physical games from Amazon. Any system that locks out used games and needs a constant internet connection to verify the presence of a new and legit game is going to alienate a loooot of people under the serious and casual gaming umbrellas.

Posted by Kidavenger

Games don't degrade over time the same way cars do, each owner of a car uses up a portion of that car's finite lifetime; a used game offers 100% value to all subsequent owners so a used game sale competes; with an price advantage over new game sales.

You guys are just shooting yourselves in the foot, there will come a point in time in which new games just don't make money any more and they will stop being made or prices will go up, killing used sales is infinitely preferable.

Online
Posted by S0ndor

If you can't see the gaping hole in your games and cars comparison (hint: $ and time), then this argument isn't even worth having.

Posted by Napalm

A Storm Is Coming [Also:] (Read my opinions that have been treaded dozens of times over already.)

Posted by matthias2437

This is probably because I have been playing PC games for so long but honestly console gamers are making too big of a deal out of not being able to trade in used games. I haven't been able to for 6 years (pc gaming) but I still manage to get all the new games I want to play. Like honestly it's not that big if of a deal and wont effect the market as much as people are making it out to be. Only people that are really going to be affected by this are used game stores.

P.S. I'm not even opposed to used games, or think they hurt the gaming industry. I just think that people are kind of making a mountain out of a mole hill.

Posted by kurtbro900

It's the internet, a storm is always coming.

Posted by UltorOscariot

Color me indifferent. If people truly care about used games in the way that a lot of people say they do, and Sony and Microsoft actually block or obstruct used games in some significant way, it will bear out in hardware sales, and behaviors will adjust accordingly. I think both consumers and industry would do well to remember that videogames are a luxury good. Nothing compels us to put up with having to constantly reassure the platform holders and publishers that we've paid them their money, but us.

Posted by ninjakiller

It's sad to see a bunch of bootlicks willing to cower and pay again for something they're already bought just because publishers want more money. You all disgust me.

Posted by Wrighteous86

Game of Thrones is awesome.

Posted by Brodehouse

A hard rain is gonna fall, video games!

Posted by Rattle618

@Wrighteous86 said:

Game of Thrones is awesome.

I came here to say: Not a storm, winter is coming.

I feel that your remark took away from the cleverness of mine but I will post it nevertheless.

Posted by Video_Game_King

@Daneian said:

@Master_Prophet said:

I heard an interesting analogy the other day, and I think it fits this argument wonderfully: a company doesn't get paid twice when a used car is sold, so why should a game developer and publisher get paid twice when their game sells? This is an excellent argument, and I agree with this 100%. Why should developers be given even more money

People don't go through one car a week.

Says who?

Edited by RagingLion

@S0ndor said:

If you can't see the gaping hole in your games and cars comparison (hint: $ and time), then this argument isn't even worth having.

How about second hand book sales then, though admittedly cheaper than games normally? I'm not trying to start an argument btw but just a discussion. I've always let the tide of second-hand sales talk just wash over me since I've never been affected by it and haven't even noticed it tbh but I'm now trying to work out if the arguments against it do all make sense given what's accepted or at least tolerated in other industries.

Is the issue with the book example that the major stories like Waterstones and WH Smith's don't stock any 2nd hand books themselves in their stores as well as the new copies (as far as I'm aware) unlike GAME and Gamestop doing for games which just means it's more in your face and easier for consumers to buy second hand for this media? What does the film industry think about exchange stores for DVDs and are they doing anything about it?

Posted by Daneian

@Video_Game_King said:

@Daneian said:

@Master_Prophet said:

I heard an interesting analogy the other day, and I think it fits this argument wonderfully: a company doesn't get paid twice when a used car is sold, so why should a game developer and publisher get paid twice when their game sells? This is an excellent argument, and I agree with this 100%. Why should developers be given even more money

People don't go through one car a week.

Says who?

You got me there.

Posted by Nilo
@Video_Game_King: Not only do I buy one car a week, I ~would~ download a car.
Posted by ZeForgotten

Developers "whine" about used games sales. 
Gamers whine about endings for games and they feel that they somehow have a say in the development of a game because they paid peanuts(their parents peanuts) for a video game. 
 
We're stuck in a loop, nothing is new anymore

Posted by Daneian

@Nilo said:

@Video_Game_King: Not only do I buy one car a week, I ~would~ download a car.

I like the idea of automobile piracy.

Posted by ZeForgotten
@Daneian said:

@Nilo said:

@Video_Game_King: Not only do I buy one car a week, I ~would~ download a car.

I like the idea of automobile piracy.

Then I want the manufacturers to put little traps (like the No Gliding Trap in Arkham Asylum that people kept whining about) into their cars. 
"Aw you downloaded a car, good for you! what's that? No breaks? You're about to crash into a building and kill yourself? You won't be missed" 
Edited by Krakn3Dfx

We've had a used console game market since the Atari 2600, and yet here we are, console games are still being made. Even with the increase in production cost, more console games than ever are being made. This isn't an issue with the used game market, this is an issue with publishers and developers. There is nothing that needs to be changed or eliminated when it comes to used games, if anything, most of the people I know that trade in used games do in as a way to afford/justify new game sales.

We're also talking about this on the edge of the first year ever that videogames made more money than movies. Yeah, obviously, Activision and EA are living week-to-week when it comes to finances.

If Microsoft and Sony implement non-used game technology into their next generation of consoles, I'll just be really happy that I have a huge backlog of PS3/360 games to go through, since that's not a console I plan to buy anytime soon.

I think it's pretty hilarious that any gamer would defend the position to get rid of the used game market completely. They did it on the PC, and game prices have still gone up on that platform in a lot of cases, and they definitely haven't gone down. Believing that game prices will drop if there are no used game sales is ignorance at the highest level, especially given the track record of the publishers we're talking about in most cases.

Posted by doobie

@ninjakiller said:

It's sad to see a bunch of bootlicks willing to cower and pay again for something they're already bought just because publishers want more money. You all disgust me.

how much more money are the devs making. and how much are they allowed to earn before we should be annoyed with them.

just so ii know

Posted by SuperCycle

I don't know why used games are a consumer problem. Every consumer has the right to get the best possible deal for what they are buying, if game developers think they should get a slice of used game sales they should go to companies that sell games used and demand one from them. Not from consumers

Edited by Sooty

If used games go away because the next consoles all force you to buy from a Microsoft/Sony online store then I will not be buying them. If you look at the price of retail games on PSN/XBLM right now it's a complete and utter disgrace.

I'm all for used games being eliminated, but competition has to be possible, if it's all digital then enjoy getting price gouged by the official online stores of Sony and Microsoft, guys.

Posted by Moncole

If all games went digital there wont be used game sales and devs will make more money but people complain about digital.

Posted by AnxiousTube

@Master_Prophet: Simple answer, royalties.

Posted by shway

cool story bro

Posted by DoctorWelch

Dont get yourself all worked up over something that will never happen. If used game sales die, than games like Mass Effect 2 and 3 would not make nearly as much money as they do. If people are not able to take a chance on a franchise that they never heard of or played before because it is the first game in the franchise, like the first Mass Effect, than people will just stick to playing the games that are known quantities and it will be hard for new blockbusters to emerge. It is going to be much harder for someone to justify buying a slightly older game that got good reviews but they have never played before, than it would be for them to just simply by the next Halo or COD because they know what these games are. If a person ends up paying $60 even once or twice on something that they find out they hate, the chances of them going back out and throwing $60 on a new franchise is slim to none. Companies need used games to motivate them to make a new game that is even better. If a company makes a lot of money off of a game, and then the sales rapidly decline after the first few months because of used games, it gives them an even greater incentive to make a new and better game.

In any case, the death of used games would impact the market so drastically that I doubt any company would be stupid enough to try to implement such a thing. The effects and changes it would have on everything would be so great that there is no way of predicting exactly what would happen. It is better for companies to just continue making money the way they know how rather than mess with the entire system and chance it falling apart before their eyes.

Posted by ninjakiller

@Krakn3Dfx said:

Believing that game prices will drop if there are no used game sales is ignorance at the highest level, especially given the track record of the publishers we're talking about in most cases.

This.

Posted by Arker101

I think this discussion has been had, but if you want used game sales to disappear, go with digital distribution, and/or lower the cost of games overall. Or just make your game appealing enough to buy new.

Posted by mosdl

But cars have day 1 dlc - sun roof options, wood interiors, etc.

Posted by cstrang

Where's the "this topic again" picture?

Posted by S0ndor

@RagingLion said:

@S0ndor said:

If you can't see the gaping hole in your games and cars comparison (hint: $ and time), then this argument isn't even worth having.

How about second hand book sales then, though admittedly cheaper than games normally? I'm not trying to start an argument btw but just a discussion. I've always let the tide of second-hand sales talk just wash over me since I've never been affected by it and haven't even noticed it tbh but I'm now trying to work out if the arguments against it do all make sense given what's accepted or at least tolerated in other industries.

Is the issue with the book example that the major stories like Waterstones and WH Smith's don't stock any 2nd hand books themselves in their stores as well as the new copies (as far as I'm aware) unlike GAME and Gamestop doing for games which just means it's more in your face and easier for consumers to buy second hand for this media? What does the film industry think about exchange stores for DVDs and are they doing anything about it?

Well, it doesn't take 40 million to write a book, just a person with a laptop. As for films, well between theatres, streaming services, tv networks, merchandising and rental stores, they have plenty of other options to make money aside from dvd sales. Which is probably why they are focussing more on cracking down on piracy, rather than used sales. Games on the other hand rely mostly on physical sales, eventhough digital is of course on the rise. Overall, used sales have a significantly larger impact on a video game developer's bottom line than some other industries.

That's the way I see it anywho.

Posted by WinterSnowblind

I don't spend much money on games, but I still get by just fine without ever buying them used.

I only occasionally buy games at full price, it has to really appeal to me and feel worth the full £40 price tag before I'll buy it.. off the top of my head, Diablo 3 and Guild Wars 2 are the only games coming this year that I'll pay full price for on day one. Everything else is just a matter of waiting a couple of months, and then buying when they're on sale for half the price, if not less and that's usually cheaper than buying them second hand. If you're struggling so much to pay for games, simply wait longer. Games do not hold their value.

Posted by Krakn3Dfx

@WinterSnowblind said:

I don't spend much money on games, but I still get by just fine without ever buying them used.

I only occasionally buy games at full price, it has to really appeal to me and feel worth the full £40 price tag before I'll buy it.. off the top of my head, Diablo 3 and Guild Wars 2 are the only games coming this year that I'll pay full price for on day one. Everything else is just a matter of waiting a couple of months, and then buying when they're on sale for half the price, if not less and that's usually cheaper than buying them second hand. If you're struggling so much to pay for games, simply wait longer. Games do not hold their value.

I see your logic, but I would counter that a used game market is part of the reason why you see new games drop in price like they do.

To what extent, I can only speculate, but if you look at digital distributed games on XBL or PSN, where there is no incentive to drop prices over time due to competition with used game sales, it takes substantially longer for it to happen.

Of course, there are exceptions, Steam being the most obvious. There is no "test run" when it comes to getting rid of used console game sales tho, once we go down that road, for better or worse, we're pretty much stuck.

Posted by BrockNRolla

@ninjakiller said:

@Krakn3Dfx said:

Believing that game prices will drop if there are no used game sales is ignorance at the highest level, especially given the track record of the publishers we're talking about in most cases.

This.

I like your point, but I find your choice of media to convey it disgusting.

Edited by Tennmuerti

I heard the car analogy so many times by now...
Guess what, it's a shitty analogy. These are entirely different products with their own business models.
It seems to be used from time to time by people who are new to this used/piracy debate.

Sorry for being harsh.
I don't want to come off as a dick, but it's been broken down and explained why this is an irrelevant analogy ad nauseum.
 
Also I'm a PC gamer (primarily at least)  loss of used sales is kind of in the past for us.
Constant sales are there instead of used games, i can spend less and still get my games and they won't even be used. Win/win.
Steam isn't the only retailer to implement sales strategies, everyone saw how successful that shit was an followed suit, GoG, D2D, Origin, etc
Consoles are playing catch up.

Posted by CptBedlam

I'm already boycotting games that annoy me with their DLC model at the time of their release. I didn't buy Forza 4, Gears 3, Mass Effect 3 etc. for that reason and I'm happy with it. There are lots of other games out there that deserve my money, not just the big blockbusters.

Posted by sopranosfan

I have no problem with companies including DLC for free in new copies, charging online pass fees for games not purchased new, or even blocking trophies like apparently the Vita does. I do have a problem with a company saying you never have that ability. I have bought SNES, PS1, and PS2 games in the last year but if this does become reality then this wouldn't be possible. One of the key parts of ownership in my opinion is the ability to sell something and if I can't ever sell it then I don't own it. I buy basically all of my current gen games new and even had a Gamestop employee ask me why I have a card if I am going to buy a new copy when a used one is available and I told him it was so they could make more games.

I also have a feeling that this really won't help the people that most assume and hope it will. I say this because Call of Duty, Halo, and Assassin's Creed will sell millions of copies no matter how many used copies are sold and they will be more than profitable. While games like Valkyria Chronicles still won't sell well because they never sold new or used copies to begin with and it may get them a few thousand extra sales but I doubt it would give them many because I doubt my local Gamestop has more than 2 or 3 copies of the game whereas they probably have 30 copies of Modern Warfare 3 and Madden 12.

I personally see the trade as unacceptable to me and won't be buying a new console if these features are included and encourage others to do the same if you feel the same. If you feel that what they are doing is fair then buy the console and let them know.

Posted by EXTomar

The tiny problem is they've already won. The XBox 360 and PS3 are "hardened" DRM platforms. The completely open platforms like PC are getting less and less cross platform ports. For ISVs and the platform holders, DRM clearly makes money and is going nowhere but bigger next generation.

Posted by SexyToad

Uhhhh Thunder Pie?

Posted by TheDudeOfGaming

I prefer winter is coming myself.

Posted by Th3_James

I've been a pc gamer for along time, an ONLINE pass is the same as CD keys. People always bitch about PC gamers pirating everything, and while some of that is true a growing number of people pirate games on consoles. PS1,2,3, dreamcast, xbox, xbox360, wii all have huge markets for piracy. Surprised it took them this long to address the problem.

Posted by M_Shini

I really think the used car analogy is really the best since a new and used car price's are far up in the scope of money compared to a used game, as well as the frequency in which people buy cars and game it just doesn't work.

I am a big fan of Online stores such as Steam and PSN, although there needs to be allot more coordination with the publishers and Sony about how publishers stick a retail game on there for download and leave it at full price regardless of what the retail market price's are doing and make it a more attractive option to buy things new, and not just for DLC feature or pre order weapon codes or whatever else they use to intice a New purchase on day one before the used sales begin.

Posted by AlexanderSheen

He's the Master Prophet, you guys. You should be more serious about what he said.

Posted by jozzy

@Master_Prophet said:

I heard an interesting analogy the other day, and I think it fits this argument wonderfully: a company doesn't get paid twice when a used car is sold, so why should a game developer and publisher get paid twice when their game sells? This is an excellent argument, and I agree with this 100%.

Have you been living under a rock the past 10 years?

Posted by PillClinton

As long as new games continue to go down in price after launch as they have been, I'm kind of ok with used games going away. 1: I hate GameStop, and would love to see their scummy business model crumble, and 2: I'm ready to embrace an all-digital future, as long as the console makers are smart and go about it in the vein of Steam (e.g. reasonable and varying prices for various kinds and sizes of games, and sales).

Edited by kgb0515

I like to sell used food for profit. Also, the value of games does decrease with time, otherwise the copy of bubble bobble that I bought for $5 at Gamestop wouldn't have been possible.

Posted by ddensel

This used game argument really needs to stop.

As someone said, there has been used game sales since the 2600, and gaming business has never been bigger, healthier or have employed more people. This really is a false crisis that has been totally manufactured by game publishers. It's the same fear TV and film industry had about VCRs and TiVO, but look they're still around making gobs of money.

This isn't about "artists getting paid for their hard work". If used games went away tomorrow, your average game developer wouldn't see a penny of the increased sales, only the large publishers would reap the benefits, and gamers would play fewer games. This is about large media conglomerates like EA, Activision, Microsoft and Sony wanting more money, and now they've set their sights on Gamestop, smaller used operations and gamers on a budget.

Ultimately though, us as gamers are king. If we're not satisfied with the level of openness of game consoles, we can speak loud and clear with our wallets.

Posted by Jimbo

My only real issue with it is how they try to demonise people for buying and selling used games, which -as games are being sold right now- is something everybody is perfectly entitled to do.

If they want to sell them in a different manner which precludes them being resold, that's entirely up to them and I'm fine with that, but that lack of resale value will be reflected in the price and/or the amount of demand at a given price. Ultimately, I wouldn't expect it to make a significant difference to the publishers, because the limiting factor on the market is still going to be how many dollars are out there which people are willing and able to spend on gaming. People aren't suddenly going to get richer to make up for the fact that they can no longer trade in their old games or save some money buying them, so you'll end up with (at best) the same amount of dollars going around but with less people experiencing less games to show for it (which is pretty much irrelevant as far as the industry is concerned).

In theory the publishers should end up getting the dollars which the GameStops et al are currently getting, but in practice game retail will just have to get their share back from new sales instead or go out of business. The former puts the publishers right back where they were anyway and the latter would be bad for everybody, because like them or not, GameStops & subsidised Game Informers etc. give gaming a visible presence in front of the general public and drive a large number of sales.

I do think the console manufacturers will eventually be pro-active in pushing digital distribution (my guess is with a subsidised digital-only console SKU), but the only people who will end up benefitting from that will be the console manufacturers themselves. They'll take the console tax and the retail cut (which will be ALL sales on a digital-only SKU) and the publishers will have to like it or fuck off - and given there will be nowhere left for them to fuck off to, they'll just have to like it.

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