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Posted by UltimAXE

Man, I wish that gaming publications would stop covering Sonic games, because I haven't seen any one of them get Sonic in, like, ten years. Hell, it's difficult to have a discussion about them with the fanbase.
 
As for Episode 2, the physics seem a tiny bit better than Ep. 1's, but not the drastic engine revamp that I seem to remember Sega PR claiming left and right. Both Sonic 4 Eps are fine and fun for what they are, but Sonic Team has yet to match the 2D quality of the Genesis originals. And that continues to baffle me.

Posted by wsowen02

Once again, the press proves they really DON'T know anything about the original Genesis games. Aside from the Green Hill equivalent level at the beginning of each game, those games required some very precise platforming and the physics felt absolutely perfect.

Edited by melodiousj

Yeah, I think "physics" was the word Ryan and Patric were struggling to find. Managing Sonic's momentum was a huge part of the early games, especially during the slower moments, where having the right amount of momentum to reach the next platform but not overshoot it was huge.

It's something we (or at least I) didn't really think about at the time because we were kids, but mastering the physics was definitely key to getting good at those games. I suppose it still is nowadays, but the physics have definitely changed. They're still alright if you take 'em for what they are, I guess.

Posted by BisonHero

@RobKenno said:

Have always wonder why Sega just don't make a game like sonic 2/3 like megaman9 old school 2D I'm sure it would sell and people would have nothing to complain about, I hate the newer games personally think Sonic 2 is one of the greatest games of all Time

I'm pretty sure that's what they're trying to do with Sonic 4. They saw how people were liking Mega Man 9 (and 10), and Sonic 4 is their version of that idea. They just didn't get the part where old school graphics are key to the experience.

Posted by barrygormley

Ryan loves everything I hate about modern sonic games and hates everything that actually made the original sonics good. bizarre.

Posted by PerfidiousSinn

This game's all right but $15 is too much. I can definitely wait for $10.

Posted by Cheekyank

that QL was supercalafragilistic!

Posted by Dan_CiTi

Ryan "I KNEW HE WAS BROWN" Davis

Edited by vinsanityv22

Another Sonic game, another "Patrick-being-a-dick-about-it" video, I see. *sigh*

It really doesn't matter whether they're good or bad. He just loves being snarky about it. It's quite annoying. He's getting better about it as time goes on, I guess, but he still has to get that snark in, even though the games are officially good again. Really good, in Sonic Colors' and Generations' case. You always talk about the same things too, Patrick - we get it, you dislike underwater stages.

And don't even blame the lock on for Patrick playing like a retard. (11:51). You don't blame controls on any other game - don't fucking throw that shit exclusively at Sonic titles. It's on a different button than jump for a reason, so you don't act like a retard. It's called a learning curve, and just because you haven't gotten over the hump yet, doesn't mean you can trash it, guys. Seriously. You guys also ran into a lot of enemies; you know you can roll into a ball, right? Go right through 'em? Gonna blame the level design instead of yourselves there too?

I just don't understand why you have to analyze it so much. This is how Sonic games play; it's unique - that's good. Let it be. You guys sound like ...I don't even know. Like when Pokemon came out, and parents everywhere just had to rationalize everything. "What are they? Pets? Food?". They just couldn't fucking accept them. And that's how you guys respond to Sonic. Even though you're playing it, and it's - at it's core - a very good (and much improved, over Episode I) platformer with responsive controls and engaging level designs, you're talking about how there's no gameplay there? The Genesis games were not "run all the time" - they were ALWAYS balanced between platformer bits and moments of speed.

It's pretty offensive how you guys lazily tear into, what is, a good game. For no reason.

Can we get OTHER Giantbomb members to look at Sonic games, perhaps? Dave? Vinny? Brad? Anyone?

Posted by Sarkahn

Hearing Ryan say his name, I've realized for the first time in my life why Tails' name is Miles Prower (Miles per hour).

Posted by Wes899

@vinsanityv22 said:

Another Sonic game, another "Patrick-being-a-dick-about-it" video, I see. *sigh*

It really doesn't matter whether they're good or bad. He just loves being snarky about it. It's quite annoying. He's getting better about it as time goes on, I guess, but he still has to get that snark in, even though the games are officially good again. Really good, in Sonic Colors' and Generations' case. You always talk about the same things too, Patrick - we get it, you dislike underwater stages.

And don't even blame the lock on for Patrick playing like a retard. (11:51). You don't blame controls on any other game - don't fucking throw that shit exclusively at Sonic titles. It's on a different button than jump for a reason, so you don't act like a retard. It's called a learning curve, and just because you haven't gotten over the hump yet, doesn't mean you can trash it, guys. Seriously.

I just don't understand why you have to analyze it so much. This is how Sonic games play; it's unique - that's good. Let it be. You guys sound like ...I don't even know. Like when Pokemon came out, and parents everywhere just had to rationalize everything. "What are they? Pets? Food?". They just couldn't fucking accept them. And that's how you guys respond to Sonic. Even though you're playing it, and it's - at it's core - a very good (and much improved, over Episode I) platformer with responsive controls and engaging level designs, you're talking about how there's no gameplay there? The Genesis games were not "run all the time" - they were ALWAYS balanced between platformer bits and moments of speed.

It's pretty offensive how you guys lazily tear into, what is, a good game. For no reason.

You are actually offended?

Posted by Brendan

@Wes899 said:

@vinsanityv22 said:

Another Sonic game, another "Patrick-being-a-dick-about-it" video, I see. *sigh*

It really doesn't matter whether they're good or bad. He just loves being snarky about it. It's quite annoying. He's getting better about it as time goes on, I guess, but he still has to get that snark in, even though the games are officially good again. Really good, in Sonic Colors' and Generations' case. You always talk about the same things too, Patrick - we get it, you dislike underwater stages.

And don't even blame the lock on for Patrick playing like a retard. (11:51). You don't blame controls on any other game - don't fucking throw that shit exclusively at Sonic titles. It's on a different button than jump for a reason, so you don't act like a retard. It's called a learning curve, and just because you haven't gotten over the hump yet, doesn't mean you can trash it, guys. Seriously.

I just don't understand why you have to analyze it so much. This is how Sonic games play; it's unique - that's good. Let it be. You guys sound like ...I don't even know. Like when Pokemon came out, and parents everywhere just had to rationalize everything. "What are they? Pets? Food?". They just couldn't fucking accept them. And that's how you guys respond to Sonic. Even though you're playing it, and it's - at it's core - a very good (and much improved, over Episode I) platformer with responsive controls and engaging level designs, you're talking about how there's no gameplay there? The Genesis games were not "run all the time" - they were ALWAYS balanced between platformer bits and moments of speed.

It's pretty offensive how you guys lazily tear into, what is, a good game. For no reason.

You are actually offended?

He's the guy that's been carrying the flag for Sonic all these years. We don't talk about people like him.

Posted by YukoAsho

@vinsanityv22 said:

Another Sonic game, another "Patrick-being-a-dick-about-it" video, I see. *sigh*

It really doesn't matter whether they're good or bad. He just loves being snarky about it. It's quite annoying. He's getting better about it as time goes on, I guess, but he still has to get that snark in, even though the games are officially good again. Really good, in Sonic Colors' and Generations' case. You always talk about the same things too, Patrick - we get it, you dislike underwater stages.

And don't even blame the lock on for Patrick playing like a retard. (11:51). You don't blame controls on any other game - don't fucking throw that shit exclusively at Sonic titles. It's on a different button than jump for a reason, so you don't act like a retard. It's called a learning curve, and just because you haven't gotten over the hump yet, doesn't mean you can trash it, guys. Seriously. You guys also ran into a lot of enemies; you know you can roll into a ball, right? Go right through 'em? Gonna blame the level design instead of yourselves there too?

I just don't understand why you have to analyze it so much. This is how Sonic games play; it's unique - that's good. Let it be. You guys sound like ...I don't even know. Like when Pokemon came out, and parents everywhere just had to rationalize everything. "What are they? Pets? Food?". They just couldn't fucking accept them. And that's how you guys respond to Sonic. Even though you're playing it, and it's - at it's core - a very good (and much improved, over Episode I) platformer with responsive controls and engaging level designs, you're talking about how there's no gameplay there? The Genesis games were not "run all the time" - they were ALWAYS balanced between platformer bits and moments of speed.

It's pretty offensive how you guys lazily tear into, what is, a good game. For no reason.

Can we get OTHER Giantbomb members to look at Sonic games, perhaps? Dave? Vinny? Brad? Anyone?

Well, first off, the gaming media has been riding the Sonic hate train for years since the abortion that was Sonic 06, even though the franchise has greatly improved since, because it gets pagehits from enraged fanboys. It's basically the post-Gawker culture of being as sensationalist and nerd-baiting as possible. Sadly, Giant Bomb proves no different: having someone else look at them would make no difference.

Secondly, for what it's worth, is a dick about anything that isn't an indie game, just like Jeff is a dick about anything that isn't an FPS or a fighting game and Alex is a dick about everything.

In short, you're only now surprised and offended?

Edited by ll_Exile_ll

If they are just going to come into every sonic quicklook predisposed to hating the game, making snide comment about how terrible the series has become (despite the fact that there have been several good sonic games in a row), and demonstrate how uninformed they are about the original games, then what is the point of doing a quicklook for every sonic game. I love 99.999% of the stuff Giantbomb does, but it comes of as extremely unprofessional when they are so predisposed to hating a game combined with their total lack of knowledge about the gameplay and design of the genesis games.

Edited by EveretteScott

@Wes899 said:

You are actually offended?

The internet is serious fucking business to some people. Also, apparently Sonic games as well.

Posted by Greebman

Why are there still sonic games. Sonic is over dudes. Someone tell the devs.

Posted by mr_shoeless

@Zleunamme: Around where I live the ExpressMart gas stations have them.

Posted by dropabombonit

Is it just me or does the music suck in this game, sounds like repetitive and bad midi music

Posted by MeatSim

Even Tails wants Sonic to be dead now.

Posted by phantomzxro

@ll_Exile_ll said:

If they are just going to come into every sonic quicklook predisposed to hating the game, making snide comment about how terrible the series has become (despite the fact that there have been several good sonic games in a row), and demonstrate how uninformed they are about the original games, then what is the point of doing a quicklook for every sonic game. I love 99.999% of the stuff Giantbomb does, but it comes of as extremely unprofessional when they are so predisposed to hating a game combined with their total lack of knowledge about the gameplay and design of the genesis games.

Yep! Could not finish the quicklook the i don't get sonic is getting old and sonic generations was pretty cool.

Posted by bonbolapti

I like to think people wouldn't been so huffy about Sonic games if they actually used some skill :P

Posted by DougCL

can we just cool it with the sonic games for a few decades please?

Posted by jbuchan76
@YukoAsho
 
Secondly, for what it's worth, @patrickklepek is a dick about anything that isn't an indie game, just like Jeff is a dick about anything that isn't an FPS or a fighting game and Alex is a dick about everything.

That is Awesome!  Well Said… I laughed out loud when i read that.
I used to hate Alex, but I've moved on to hating Patrick more then i ever hated Alex.  The snark / dick-ness gets old. 
Edited by Axon64

One of my problems is how flow breaking the team moves are. It takes like 3 seconds for the animation to play every time you use it, and when the main attraction of the Sonic series is speed and flow, this is really frustrating to me.

The game has it's problems. It's certainly not the best Sonic game, in this video they just seem to be very uninformed about a lot of the Sonic stuff.

Edited by Paul_Str337

@bonbolapti: People seem to go "Ohh, Sonic game!" and rush forwards with reckless abandon then complain when they die because of, you know, platforming.

It's odd to me living in a world where Mario is considered the pinnacle of platforming because as a kid in the UK it was all about Sonic and the fat plumber was slow and unresponsive in comparison.

Posted by believer258

Well, Sonic Rush was pretty good. Everyone seems to forget the handheld Sonic games which were actually all right. I remember beating Sonic Rush a good number of times when I first got a DS.

Posted by Gilby

How do people still not understand what the problem with Sonic is?

Here's a hint: What do Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, Runman:Race Around The World, and Dustforce have that Sonic games don't?

Give Up?

MOMENTUM-based game mechanics!

In sonic there's no real game system about continuing to go fast.In DK:JB you are rewarded for continually moving forward without touching the ground. In Runman you are rewarded for maintaining your speed throughout the level. In Dustforce you are rewarded for constantly progressing through "untouched" surfaces.

All of these are mechanics which urge the player to never stop moving, encouraging them to replay levels to earn rewards if they are able to beat it without stopping.

Sonic has none of this, or at least no direct mechanic (something like a combo multiplier that resets if you don't kill an enemy every 5 seconds) to make his "speed" mean something significant relative to movement through the stage.

Without any relativity there is no context for the character's movement, making for another typical forgettable digital roller-coaster.

Posted by YummyTreeSap

@believer258: Sonic Rush was horrible. Absolute trash.

I ultimately disagree with what has been said in this video about the Sonic series. Sonic 1 through 3&K are absolutely still fun when you're not going fast. Those fast parts were actually relatively few and far between, but great treats when they did happen. Somewhere along the lines the Sonic Team has forgotten that, and we've ended up with really shit games that try to make almost the entire game those fast moments. Throw in bad music (when the Sonic series has always had amazing music), hand-holdy crap like the auto-aim jumps, and terrible platforming for the moments when you're not holding right, and the series just isn't fun anymore.

Did they fix the physics for Sonic 4: Ep. II, by the way? Momentum was always a huge part of the Sonic games, but it was mysteriously absent from Ep. I. The fact that the Genesis games had better physics than a current-gen game is absurd.

Posted by believer258
Posted by YukoAsho

@bonbolapti said:

I like to think people wouldn't been so huffy about Sonic games if they actually used some skill :P

Posted by manbot47

Took me a while to realize that outside of Sonic 2 i just didn't really dig this franchise. That ham fisted attitude and edge they gave him worked its magic on 5 year old me.

Posted by GunstarRed

@Gilby:

You are wrong. This is what sonic is best at now. This might look like an on rails, push to the right roller coaster to someone that hasn't played it, but to do this level with this much precision and skill is very, very impressive. A sloppy player would be seeing far more of the 2D platforming and entirely different pathways.

The boost mechanic only works if you move at speed AND collect rings/ do tricks. playing like this rewards you with both shortcuts and a better score at the end of the level. Look at a ton of this Japanese dudes videos of Sonic Generations. he does whole runs of levels at insane speeds and collecting all of the collectibles within a level.

This shit is awesome and what Sonic should be from now on.

Posted by Paul_Str337

Sonic Rush was perfectly good at what it was trying to do and after some of the recent 3D games at the time was a revelation. It's sequel Sonic Rush Adventure was trash as it threw in too many DS stylus minigames for no reason and lacked it's predecessors style and imagination.

Modern Sonic gameplay as seen in Sonic Colours and Sonic Generations is the best Sonic has been since the shift to 3D. They have a crazy amount of speed but require a lot of skill to race to the end of each level with the best grade. It's almost like memorizing a track in a racing game. Only the 2D parts of Modern Sonic levels let things down as for some reason Sonic is ultra floaty when jumping and lacks the momentum seen in Sonic 4 Episode II.

Edited by Axon64

I really don't understand the people saying "LOL SONIC IS DEAD, PROOF RIGHT HERE, STOP MAKING SONIC GAMES HURR" when the past few Sonic games (Colors, Generations, Unleashed to an extent) have been generally well-received by fans and critics alike. Hell, Sonic 4 Episode 2 is actually a pretty fun game with a few problems, but I'm sure none of you care enough about that to stop parading around on the "SONIC CYCLE! SONIC IS DEAD! LET'S ALL HATE SONIC!" bandwagon without having played any of the recent games.

The actual truth is that Sonic Team is finally getting their act together. You can deny it all you want in favor of retarded hate-memes, but it won't change.

Posted by Goldanas

You know, I was about to get mad.

When they were talking about how there were never any cooperative elements in the original Sonic titles with Tails, I was steaming.

When Patrick was constantly mashing the jump button, and getting mad when he was flying off target, I was fuming.

When they started to go into the "Where's the gameplay?" schtick, I wanted to break every piece of electronic equipment in my house along with every modern video game.

But then I thought:

Why?

Why should I give a rat's ass about what some indie hipster, reddit meme-spouting piece of shit who couldn't play his way out of a decent game to save his life thinks about a game that isn't about "Push up on the joystick: receive pretentious 'artful' 'story'"?

Why should I care about the opinion of someone who maybe didn't even play the original games, and forms his opinions based upon what others have said?

I played the games, and I played this one. I know when they are factually wrong, and playing like a bunch of imbeciles. I know that the games (and this one) are fun titles with some precise controls and some interesting mechanics and more "gameplay" than almost any indie game released this year thus far combined. It's not the second coming of Christ, but it is not the terrible game made out to be here. What happened here is what happens when someone refuses to even play the game. It's like watching someone who isn't particularly great at bowling, purposefully throw gutter-balls and then faffing about like bafoon afterwards in an attempt to be ironic, while not realizing that they are not masking their inability, only emphasizing it.

I'm fine with the opinion I have formed based on my own actual informed experience. That's my knowledge. They can have theirs.

It's not worth getting upset over.

Video Games.

Posted by Vrikk

People are upset that they don't like Sonic games? Does anyone EVER listen to the Bombcast? They almost always destroy none triple A games for being stupid games (except for Vinnie and his crew of the weird flight stick loving fools that they are).

Posted by Willy105
Edited by BlazeHedgehog

Has @PatrickKlepek or @Ryan ever considered that it's been so long since those initial Genesis games that the guys who make newer games like Sonic 4 don't get what made the old games fun? That when you say, "When I stop moving, that's when it's not fun anymore" is actually something long time Sonic fans point to as what games like Sonic 4 get wrong versus, say, Sonic the Hedgehog 2?

Posted by m2cks

ITT: people mad about other people mad about video games.

Posted by LikeaSsur

@Lumley said:

I'm done with Sonic, I got Generations last year and it was great but I don't want to touch a new Sonic game for a very long time.

You and me both buddy. Sonic Generations was it for me for a loooooong time.

Posted by Potter9156

Why is it frozen underwater, but the water isn't... Ice.

Posted by Paul_Str337

@Potter9156: Because the robots are freezing the water directly in front of them?

Posted by BPRJCTX

Generations was Awesome!!!

All Stars Racing, as well.

I even liked his Tennis game.

Funny enough, i enjoy those more than the "Mario" versions...

Give me more of those.

Posted by SatelliteOfLove

Sonic had great platforming, but you had to "gel" with it by going high up or on secret paths.
 
Note the stupid signs here instead of 3's Casino Night Zone (you know where).

Posted by Sauson

I didn't like Sonic when it was on the Genesis, I didn't like Sonic when it was on the Dreamcast, and I don't like the modern Sonic games. I've never understood the love for these games and I really don't understand how people are getting upset over people making fun of 'em.

Posted by acelariato

Another Sonic game and another spate of game journalists having no idea what made Sonic games great. Speed was only one part. SEGA's obsession with speed in the newer titles due to listening to negative game reviews is terrible. Though as a PAL gamer my Sonic was slower by default haha!

Posted by peritus

@acelariato said:

Another Sonic game and another spate of game journalists having no idea what made Sonic games great. Speed was only one part. SEGA's obsession with speed in the newer titles due to listening to negative game reviews is terrible. Though as a PAL gamer my Sonic was slower by default haha!

Then what was it about?

As a Snes household we didnt see a lot of sonic. So im genuinly interested to find out! ( did i spell that right? )

Posted by yeah_write

@Gilby said:

How do people still not understand what the problem with Sonic is?

Here's a hint: What do Donkey Kong Jungle Beat, Runman:Race Around The World, and Dustforce have that Sonic games don't?

Give Up?

MOMENTUM-based game mechanics!

In sonic there's no real game system about continuing to go fast.In DK:JB you are rewarded for continually moving forward without touching the ground. In Runman you are rewarded for maintaining your speed throughout the level. In Dustforce you are rewarded for constantly progressing through "untouched" surfaces.

All of these are mechanics which urge the player to never stop moving, encouraging them to replay levels to earn rewards if they are able to beat it without stopping.

Sonic has none of this, or at least no direct mechanic (something like a combo multiplier that resets if you don't kill an enemy every 5 seconds) to make his "speed" mean something significant relative to movement through the stage.

Without any relativity there is no context for the character's movement, making for another typical forgettable digital roller-coaster.

THIS.

Even back when it was new and I was enamored with his edgy attitude and absurd game-breaking speed, I still got frustrated with how poorly the speed and platforming gelled. I couldn't tell if the game wanted me to go fast and tear through each stage, or slow down and take my time. As the series went on, they started throwing in more "full stops" that required you to carefully navigate the environment. That wasn't fun, at all.

Sonic needs a Dustforce-like makeover, or maybe even something like this:

Posted by acelariato

@peritus: In the older games there was a lot of slowed down platform sections and exploration. It wasn't all 100mph runs into death pits. A good example of this is Lava Reef Zone from Sonic & Knuckles. Barely any high speed sections. A lot of jumping and moving slow. I think for Sonic 1 & 2 the first stages can be seen as what the media thinks Sonic is but as soon as it hits Zone 2 it is all paced platforming. Did this make sense? Let me know. I sometimes find it hard to describe stuff.

Edited by Th3_James

Sonic 2, 3, knuckles, cd

That is sonic to me, anything else is just complete utter shit.

Also, they should have made sonic 4 an all sprite game and reuse sounds and other assets from sonic 3. If they just did that I think I would have actually gave a fuck.