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Posted by Ravenlight

I feel it's both appropriate and ominous that I was listening to this music when I saw that this article was bumped.

I'm tripping on NyQuil and now I have the perfect soundtrack to pass out to!

Posted by Octaslash

I feel it's both appropriate and ominous that I was listening to this music when I saw that this article was bumped.

It seems extra appropriate that it's from Patrick's favorite Final Fantasy game.

Posted by Video_Game_King

@me3639 said:

The #2 most tired discussion/articles written in 2013

Patrick wrote this in 2012.

Posted by me3639

The #2 most tired discussion/articles written in 2013 behind is Nintendo dead. I will predict 2014 that gender will become race and Nintendo dead will become Nintendo rises again(which it really doesnt).

Posted by Video_Game_King

I feel it's both appropriate and ominous that I was listening to this music when I saw that this article was bumped.

Posted by The7thDraconian

One thing that has bugged me in both video games and media is the fact that having a female main character is still considered unique or subversive. Why is it not as natural to have a female main character as it is a male character?

Posted by NickMBMBAMCCoffman

I love the initiative but it's just all for not sometimes.

Posted by monsterelite

Nope, not even gonna touch this one!

Posted by mik_fox

@wondergirl246: People like you don't let me become a misogynist after I read articles like this one. You worded it out really well, I only wish the article's author was as rational as you.

Being a journalist is a great power, journalists are the only people who can influence current situation. And as we all know, with great power comes great responsibility.

I understand and support women fighting for equal rights, but this has nothing to do with rights. There are plenty of women in the middle east and elsewhere who do in fact have miserable oppressed lives, but you don't hear them mentioned nearly as often as the petty first world non-issues that so-called 'feminists' like to rally over.

They're blatantly self-serving and nothing more, they don't actually care about anything beyond their own petty whinges. I'd even go as far as saying that they give women a bad name.

Unfortunately, pointing this out in reality only gets you accused of sexism.

I don't know who I am disgusted with more - self-serving women who use 'feminism' to disguise their egotism, or weak white-knighting men who can't even stand for themselves. In any case, thank you for your post. And no, that's not internalized misogyny you have there - you're just a normal human being, capable of understanding the nature of subcultures.

P.S: please disregard my grammar, English is my third language.

Posted by wondergirl246

I wrote about a similar issue over at ComicVine (I think this is my first post here) so I just wanted to add my two cents. I'm always a bit ambivalent about these sort of things.

I mean of course I'm against sexism. No one should have to endure a hostile workplace. The problem is that it's subjective. A lot of the comments I saw seemed pretty trivial. So what if someone thought you were a receptionist? Companies need to do a better job of communicating their culture to new hires so that the looser, more fun work environments can stay loose and fun. There is no clear objective line between joking around and "OMG I'm offended!"

But this whole campaign isn't really just about sexism. It's about women infiltrating a male-dominated culture and expecting its norms to turn on a dime. The fact that the gaming industry worries more about catering to men shouldn't shock anyone given that for most of gaming's history, the percentage of female enthusiasts was very low. It's really only the last decade when geek culture started to become trendy that a lot of ladies started getting into it.

Now that women are wading into this culture at various levels, from players to developers, they're shocked to find that this rich, intricate culture of gaming, with its decades of history built by the uncelebrated quiet nerdy guys they mocked in middle school, doesn't follow every commandment of modern PC discourse. Rather than adapt and slug it out with the guys to prove themselves, they want to complain about men's "assumptions" and "tone."

When you go to a foreign country, you may not like some of the customs, but you don't have the right to demand that everyone adopt your values; YOU have to adapt, and if you want to change norms you have to work a long time by proving yourself within that environment. I think subcultures should function similarly. Maybe I have some internalized misogyny, but I kind of preferred the days when fewer women were into games and guys just didn't give a shit about how they felt.

You see a different side of men when they're free to be themselves and not worry about female approval. Women are the same way. We like our spaces, and men are generally respectful about entering them. They'll either adopt the culture (metrosexuals) or stay out. I have yet to see a twitter campaign of male nurses and romance novel fans complaining about the assumptions they have to deal with.

Posted by JasonR86

You know, as dismissive of the article as I was at first I enjoyed the conversations I had with some of the members. I think the more reasonable members became more reasonable even if the details of discussions weren't necessarily agreed upon. That's a hell of a result for an internet message board conversation.

Posted by mik_fox

Is there a way I can downvote this article somehow? I'm genuinely disgusted and really feel the need to express my disgust via some sort of thumbs down button, that would certainly make me feel better (since I can't improve this horrible situation with white-knighting on the Internet and destructive feminism in the videogame industry in any way).

I could expect this from Kot.. eh, some other "quality video game journalism" site, but this place.. damn, this kinda ruined my day.

Posted by Boopie

DOTDOTDOT

Edited by TMBaker
Posted by MiniPato

"Mirror's Edge, featuring one of gaming's most memorable protagonists regardless of gender"

Sorry Patrick, I love me some Mirror's Edge, but the story and characters were in no way that game's strong point.

Posted by michaelfossbakk

"I can't profess to know what it is really like to be a female in the video game industry, and I'll never know, but I can do a better job of listening to those who are living it right now, and do my part to make it a better environment for them." - Patrick Klepek

My feelings exactly.

Posted by Christoffer

@EnduranceFun said:

@Christoffer: Citation needed? I could as easily claim no one who viewed this article hadn't already formed an opinion. If they didn't make a comment then I'd say it's unlikely they feel strongly about the issue, as a lot of people chimed in with a single sentence even and avoided the 'mess.'

It's a little insulting how quickly you rubbish my original post based on this huge assumption.

Well I think I interpreted your original post a little different then. But from other posts I've seen, you seem alright so forget about it.

Posted by Trainer_Red

@Meowshi said:

@Trainer_Red said:

@kalparun said:

@mellotronrules said:

@kalparun said:

@mellotronrules said:

@Trainer_Red said:

@kalparun said:

Thing is, you can't really oppose feminism in video games without feminists automaticaly labeling you as a sexist chauvinist so I'll let a woman handle this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZueOCLGt1tw#!

Wow. Awesome video.

that was an interesting take. thanks for sharing that. and she isn't wrong- i doubt most games are designed from the perspective of a 'misogynistic agenda.' but you can't look at a game like duke nukem (whatever permutation you choose) and not notice it's treatment of women. yes, it's probably 'all in good fun,' but that doesn't change it's treatment. also, when she says (direct quote from 4:50) "videogames are meant to be fun, and for recreation and relaxation. they are not supposed to be a social message on the real problematic views in society." that's a judgement call- what they are 'supposed' to be is all well and good (and open to interpretation), but to deny that there's any sort of social undercurrent or implicit messages in media is to claim they exist in a vacuum, devoid of any authorship or humanity. which in my opinion, is bulllshit. but that's another argument entirely.

regardless- her arguments are somewhat tangential to the discussion here. she's speaking specifically to misogynistic design- that's it's own argument. this article is speaking to women and their personal experiences with the gaming community- which are personal by their very nature, therefore very difficult to dismiss. you can take issue if someone personally claims you're a misogynist- but to claim others are somehow discredited by venting about personal experiences- that's pretty absurd and/or unreasonable.

Now that you say that, I was wondering...

How does the portrayal of the women in Duke Nukem hurt women in real life society?

I mean really, it hasn't changed the way I treat my mother or girlfriend in any way. Did it change yours? I'm sure not.

Perhaps, instead of trying to censor potentially hurtful media, we should actually provide people with the education to fend off such messages.

And if that fails, the problem is not sexism, it's education.

But by the same logic, how is the portrayal of Duke Nukem himself NOT hurtful to males?

well, i'm not a woman so i can't argue from a female's perspective. but i would imagine women might take issue with the way they're 'used' in duke nukem- less individuals with personalities or contributions, and more objects to be fondled or saved. and it's fantastic that "it hasn't changed the way [you] treat [your] mother or girlfriend in anyway." that makes you a sane, reasoned person. because if that wasn't the case, and the media did directly affect us, we'd be mindless parrot-like husks that simply mimic what we see. we'd all be dead by now. but to argue it has zero effect is equally extreme. duke nukem is an institution in video games- and all that baggage comes with him.

and you're absolutely correct that education is essential to negotiating the media. but arguing that we should simply be 'better educated' as opposed to expecting more from games and it's culture is somewhat self-defeating. we need both education, and to demand better. just because i'm educated enough to recognize the mediocrity that is duke nukem doesn't make it any less garbage. wouldn't you find it depressing if you were of a society that produced garbarge, or mistreated it's own?

and for the record- men should take issue with duke, if only from a masculine perspective. dude is a huge douchebag, by any stretch, and an embarrassment to the sex.

1) I'm sure the effect you're talking about can be seen on some people but my question is WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?

My guess is that they wouldn't have treated women nicely in the first place. Censoring and removing content won't help them.

Removing, filtering and censoring content isn't the way to "expect more from games" as you said.(read my second point on how to do that)

Just because someone might take the wrong messages and discriminate against his wife for example, it doesn't mean that I should get restricted content.

In fact that guy was crazy in the first place and blaming it on random portrayals in video games is really just illogical. I mean really, was sexism less of an issue before video games? Even if video games have an effect, I can imagine how that effect takes place in just a negligible percentage of men, who WOULD discriminate against women anyway.

If you can prove me wrong on this last point (with actual proof, study etc), I'd be glad, because it's been troubling me for quite some time now. If not, I think the issue lies elsewhere and we should let video games alone.

2) So how do we actually ask for MORE out of this industry?

Not by censoring inappropriate content but actually ENCOURAGING the "CORRECT" portrayal.

That's really a more creative way, a healthier way. Shout out for Faith's portrayal if you like it, praise Alyx Vance and that girl from portal if that's your thing! Give a hint to developers and publishers!

I really don't like the SEEK AND DESTROY process some feminists have gotten into use.

What might or not be cause of something negative for someone, might be the cause for something positive for someone else.

For example, I admit I did enjoy the boobage and butt shots in Duke Nukem and at the end of the day, I still held respect to my female friends. Is that so bad?

Let's be creative and show the way forward; being destructive is only going to drive us backwards. Cheers.

IM SORRY I RESPONDED, BUT CAN YOU GUYS STOP QUOTING ME?

All I did was like a video >.<

I agree with Trainer_Red!! Men are clearly the problem here and need to be eliminated.

Oh no you didn'.

Posted by Meowshi

@Trainer_Red said:

@kalparun said:

@mellotronrules said:

@kalparun said:

@mellotronrules said:

@Trainer_Red said:

@kalparun said:

Thing is, you can't really oppose feminism in video games without feminists automaticaly labeling you as a sexist chauvinist so I'll let a woman handle this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZueOCLGt1tw#!

Wow. Awesome video.

that was an interesting take. thanks for sharing that. and she isn't wrong- i doubt most games are designed from the perspective of a 'misogynistic agenda.' but you can't look at a game like duke nukem (whatever permutation you choose) and not notice it's treatment of women. yes, it's probably 'all in good fun,' but that doesn't change it's treatment. also, when she says (direct quote from 4:50) "videogames are meant to be fun, and for recreation and relaxation. they are not supposed to be a social message on the real problematic views in society." that's a judgement call- what they are 'supposed' to be is all well and good (and open to interpretation), but to deny that there's any sort of social undercurrent or implicit messages in media is to claim they exist in a vacuum, devoid of any authorship or humanity. which in my opinion, is bulllshit. but that's another argument entirely.

regardless- her arguments are somewhat tangential to the discussion here. she's speaking specifically to misogynistic design- that's it's own argument. this article is speaking to women and their personal experiences with the gaming community- which are personal by their very nature, therefore very difficult to dismiss. you can take issue if someone personally claims you're a misogynist- but to claim others are somehow discredited by venting about personal experiences- that's pretty absurd and/or unreasonable.

Now that you say that, I was wondering...

How does the portrayal of the women in Duke Nukem hurt women in real life society?

I mean really, it hasn't changed the way I treat my mother or girlfriend in any way. Did it change yours? I'm sure not.

Perhaps, instead of trying to censor potentially hurtful media, we should actually provide people with the education to fend off such messages.

And if that fails, the problem is not sexism, it's education.

But by the same logic, how is the portrayal of Duke Nukem himself NOT hurtful to males?

well, i'm not a woman so i can't argue from a female's perspective. but i would imagine women might take issue with the way they're 'used' in duke nukem- less individuals with personalities or contributions, and more objects to be fondled or saved. and it's fantastic that "it hasn't changed the way [you] treat [your] mother or girlfriend in anyway." that makes you a sane, reasoned person. because if that wasn't the case, and the media did directly affect us, we'd be mindless parrot-like husks that simply mimic what we see. we'd all be dead by now. but to argue it has zero effect is equally extreme. duke nukem is an institution in video games- and all that baggage comes with him.

and you're absolutely correct that education is essential to negotiating the media. but arguing that we should simply be 'better educated' as opposed to expecting more from games and it's culture is somewhat self-defeating. we need both education, and to demand better. just because i'm educated enough to recognize the mediocrity that is duke nukem doesn't make it any less garbage. wouldn't you find it depressing if you were of a society that produced garbarge, or mistreated it's own?

and for the record- men should take issue with duke, if only from a masculine perspective. dude is a huge douchebag, by any stretch, and an embarrassment to the sex.

1) I'm sure the effect you're talking about can be seen on some people but my question is WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?

My guess is that they wouldn't have treated women nicely in the first place. Censoring and removing content won't help them.

Removing, filtering and censoring content isn't the way to "expect more from games" as you said.(read my second point on how to do that)

Just because someone might take the wrong messages and discriminate against his wife for example, it doesn't mean that I should get restricted content.

In fact that guy was crazy in the first place and blaming it on random portrayals in video games is really just illogical. I mean really, was sexism less of an issue before video games? Even if video games have an effect, I can imagine how that effect takes place in just a negligible percentage of men, who WOULD discriminate against women anyway.

If you can prove me wrong on this last point (with actual proof, study etc), I'd be glad, because it's been troubling me for quite some time now. If not, I think the issue lies elsewhere and we should let video games alone.

2) So how do we actually ask for MORE out of this industry?

Not by censoring inappropriate content but actually ENCOURAGING the "CORRECT" portrayal.

That's really a more creative way, a healthier way. Shout out for Faith's portrayal if you like it, praise Alyx Vance and that girl from portal if that's your thing! Give a hint to developers and publishers!

I really don't like the SEEK AND DESTROY process some feminists have gotten into use.

What might or not be cause of something negative for someone, might be the cause for something positive for someone else.

For example, I admit I did enjoy the boobage and butt shots in Duke Nukem and at the end of the day, I still held respect to my female friends. Is that so bad?

Let's be creative and show the way forward; being destructive is only going to drive us backwards. Cheers.

IM SORRY I RESPONDED, BUT CAN YOU GUYS STOP QUOTING ME?

All I did was like a video >.<

I agree with Trainer_Red!! Men are clearly the problem here and need to be eliminated.

Posted by Ronald_Raiden

I wish the pic was faith doing sick jumps and stuff instead of punching a dude, the jumping parts were the good parts. Least she isn't shooting a dude though.

Posted by Faint

I wrote a paper on this just a few months ago at university and my lecturer was interested in what I wrote although obviously reserved as to how I could condense such a large issue into a smaller piece of writing that entertained the bigger picture - I study a Bachelor of Video Game Design. Going to get opinionated here however. I have to say is that this topic is almost like something you would throw to the vicious 'The View' sharks to be loud over for no reason. Whether this is in fact an issue or not, really comes down to individual perception, but one thing that I believe to be true is that this is a matter to do with deeply engraved societal behavior. This isn't just games and furthermore as many people seem to conveniently forget to my annoyance - this isn't just about representation of women. Last I checked male protagonists don't reflect the appearance or behavior of game players - and that's part of the point. Games are escapism and it would be farfetched to think that they would provoke thoughts and feelings superior to that of real life social structures. There are some nerdy, little perverted game makers out there who do things like give Ivy from Soul Calibur huge breasts, sure, but it obviously doesn't bother anyone to the point where they choose not to buy the product which would rectify the situation in that the product would cease to exist or they would be forced to make changes. Vote with your dollar - if you see something you don't like - don't buy it. don't support it. and if enough people feel the same way, it will go away.

If there isn't enough - loop back to the greater underlining societal/social problems. Don't just complain about an issue, or pretend to support it when you aren't actually prepared to try and do anything about it.

Posted by TOYBOXX

@PatrickKlepek Did you return the gift from Tecmo? I would. FUCK them!

Posted by Eyz

I love me some Fatih from Mirror's Edge <3

Anyways, yeah, this kinda comportement/attitude toward women is a reason why games won't ever be taken as serious as movies/TV series/books...

Posted by EnduranceFun

@VintAge68 said:

Sure Faith is a memorable heroine, but just read the above comments and you'll realize nothing's gonna change in that matter... ^^

What? Faith is a generic asian female who does parkour. She is not remotely memorable.

Heck, even FF3 had more memorable 2D female protagonists than Mirror's Edge or Heavenly Sword.

Posted by Village_Guy

@Wonloong said:

Stick to the golden rule: Don't live your lives as dicks. Respect everyone, and it'll be golden. These negative thinking about "it's not going to change" is why we don't have flying cars and not having robot servants. It's people who are too narrow-minded to even give two seconds' worth of their time to think about others.

Empathy. It's what society lacks. It's time we slowly re-learn how to do that.

Amen to that, the world is a pretty rotten place, we don't need everybody to make it worse by being assholes.

Posted by Wonloong

Stick to the golden rule: Don't live your lives as dicks. Respect everyone, and it'll be golden. These negative thinking about "it's not going to change" is why we don't have flying cars and not having robot servants. It's people who are too narrow-minded to even give two seconds' worth of their time to think about others.

Empathy. It's what society lacks. It's time we slowly re-learn how to do that.

Posted by VintAge68

Sure Faith is a memorable heroine, but just read the above comments and you'll realize nothing's gonna change in that matter... ^^

Posted by Hameyadea

One of the problems with sexism is how one change the situation. Should men be treating women like how men are suppose to act towards other women, towards other men, how women act towards other women or as women act towards other men. In nature, only very few species are a-sexual, which make it problematic to act towards the other sex as "equal" in the fullest meaning of the word. To be completely "equal" is to be completely "sexless" or "a-sexual" which isn't biologically feasible. The subject is must more complex than simple "behave better towards the women of the industry"

Posted by Archaen

@sissylion said:

@Terramagi: A lot of terrible shit does happen to Leon if you mess up, and I'm sure that Lara Croft can have terrible stuff happen to her. That premiere trailer had her cutting herself off a rope and getting stabbed by a bone when she fell. That's fine.

What isn't fine is Leon, or Isaac, or Marcus Phoenix, or a bevy of other male characters being treated differently than female protagonists. Naughty Dog didn't come out and say that you'll want to "protect" Nate Drake, because you shouldn't. You should want to keep him from eating it so you can keep playing the game, just like how you should want to keep Lara Croft from getting hurt because it means you'll have to restart at the last checkpoint.

The few times that I've been upset by a video game character seeing harm in the terms of story, it's been because those characters were well-written and I had developed some sort of attachment to them, not because I had some Neolithic desire to "keep pretty lady from get hurt."

Naughty Dog originally called Nathan Drake an everyman so that the average male would empathize with him since that's their main audience. Crystal Dynamics is doing the exact same thing, trying to get their audience of males to empathize with their character. Men react very differently to male and female characters, just as women react differently to men and women. Crystal Dynamics decided the best way to get their male players to empathize with a female character was not to say "See? She's just like you!" and to instead say "You should protect her because you like her, don't you?"

To pretend we're all the same and we're even capable of reacting the exact same to both sexes is simply ignoring the realities of how our minds work.

Posted by TooWalrus

@DeviTiffany: You're god damn right.

Posted by DeviTiffany

@TooWalrus said:

@DeviTiffany said:

I'm totally for this movement. I don't know if anything will change because of it, but it's nice to see and if it does do something good for the industry and the woman involved in it then good for it.

My only issue is why is Faith the cover character for this thing? I've never thought Faith was a memorable character, there's much better female characters you can use. Faith was more of a cipher than a real character.

What about Chloe and Elena from Uncharted? The Boss from MGS3? Cate Archer from No One Lives Forever? Tripp from Enslaved? And so forth.

...Girls love Bayonetta. I'm not even joking.

As they should, Bayonetta is a fantastic character. She's a strong and resourceful character in her own right, while at the same time being an excellent satire on female tropes in games. Bayonetta is hands down one of my favorite characters this generation.

Posted by TooWalrus

@DeviTiffany said:

I'm totally for this movement. I don't know if anything will change because of it, but it's nice to see and if it does do something good for the industry and the woman involved in it then good for it.

My only issue is why is Faith the cover character for this thing? I've never thought Faith was a memorable character, there's much better female characters you can use. Faith was more of a cipher than a real character.

What about Chloe and Elena from Uncharted? The Boss from MGS3? Cate Archer from No One Lives Forever? Tripp from Enslaved? And so forth.

...Girls love Bayonetta. I'm not even joking.

Posted by DeviTiffany

I'm totally for this movement. I don't know if anything will change because of it, but it's nice to see and if it does do something good for the industry and the woman involved in it then good for it.

My only issue is why is Faith the cover character for this thing? I've never thought Faith was a memorable character, there's much better female characters you can use. Faith was more of a cipher than a real character.

What about Chloe and Elena from Uncharted? The Boss from MGS3? Cate Archer from No One Lives Forever? Tripp from Enslaved? And so forth.

Posted by KillaMaStA

I think men and women think differently about things and if you are in the minority it is natural that nobody takes you seriously. And yes women do have to argue their points better if they want to get heard in this business. All they can do is do their best to have good ideas and contribute and they will gain respect hopefully.

I wouldn't support any large campaign to stop sexism in the video games industry.

Posted by mellotronrules

@kalparun said:

@mellotronrules said:

well, i'm not a woman so i can't argue from a female's perspective. but i would imagine women might take issue with the way they're 'used' in duke nukem- less individuals with personalities or contributions, and more objects to be fondled or saved. and it's fantastic that "it hasn't changed the way [you] treat [your] mother or girlfriend in anyway." that makes you a sane, reasoned person. because if that wasn't the case, and the media did directly affect us, we'd be mindless parrot-like husks that simply mimic what we see. we'd all be dead by now. but to argue it has zero effect is equally extreme. duke nukem is an institution in video games- and all that baggage comes with him.

and you're absolutely correct that education is essential to negotiating the media. but arguing that we should simply be 'better educated' as opposed to expecting more from games and it's culture is somewhat self-defeating. we need both education, and to demand better. just because i'm educated enough to recognize the mediocrity that is duke nukem doesn't make it any less garbage. wouldn't you find it depressing if you were of a society that produced garbarge, or mistreated it's own?

and for the record- men should take issue with duke, if only from a masculine perspective. dude is a huge douchebag, by any stretch, and an embarrassment to the sex.

1) I'm sure the effect you're talking about can be seen on some people but my question is WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?

My guess is that they wouldn't have treated women nicely in the first place. Censoring and removing content won't help them.

Removing, filtering and censoring content isn't the way to "expect more from games" as you said.(read my second point on how to do that)

Just because someone might take the wrong messages and discriminate against his wife for example, it doesn't mean that I should get restricted content.

In fact that guy was crazy in the first place and blaming it on random portrayals in video games is really just illogical. I mean really, was sexism less of an issue before video games? Even if video games have an effect, I can imagine how that effect takes place in just a negligible percentage of men, who WOULD discriminate against women anyway.

If you can prove me wrong on this last point (with actual proof, study etc), I'd be glad, because it's been troubling me for quite some time now. If not, I think the issue lies elsewhere and we should let video games alone.

2) So how do we actually ask for MORE out of this industry?

Not by censoring inappropriate content but actually ENCOURAGING the "CORRECT" portrayal.

That's really a more creative way, a healthier way. Shout out for Faith's portrayal if you like it, praise Alyx Vance and that girl from portal if that's your thing! Give a hint to developers and publishers!

I really don't like the SEEK AND DESTROY process some feminists have gotten into use.

What might or not be cause of something negative for someone, might be the cause for something positive for someone else.

For example, I admit I did enjoy the boobage and butt shots in Duke Nukem and at the end of the day, I still held respect to my female friends. Is that so bad?

Let's be creative and show the way forward; being destructive is only going to drive us backwards. Cheers.

to address your points:

i do not think those people who act on video game impulses exist. it's the same bullshit argument that's used on violence in video games. HOWEVER- i do recognize that what we consume is a reflection of the society we live in, and to think otherwise is to deny how the consumer market works. there is an influence- it's breadth and extent is debatable.

i don't think anyone's calling for censorship (i certainly never made a call for it) or the removal of content as the solution- i'm a proponent of games as an artistic medium; developers should be allowed to do or say whatever they want. but they will be held accountable for their statements (implicit or otherwise). if they make an abomination worthy of embarrassment, that should be in the public record. and as you said, "Just because someone might take the wrong messages and discriminate against his wife for example, it doesn't mean that I should get restricted content." i absolutely agree- but it also doesn't mean we should just ignore those aspects of the industry we find repugnant and hope they go away.

as for your second point- i 100% agree. positive examples are the way to go, and vote with your dollars- don't buy the crap that assumes you like prepubescent interpretations of women. and regarding liking "boob and butt shots"...if you're a heterosexual male, chances are you're into those. nothing wrong with that. but i use pornography for that. i don't need it in a game, too.

Posted by gogosox82

@Indarys said:

@gogosox82 said:

@Indarys said:

Oh, and please, stop using the tired "You can never understand this because you're a MAN/WHITE/CHRISTIAN/STRAIGHT" line. Being a bigot is not just a white male thing. It's a human thing. If I, as a man, tried to get a job in child care, you bet I'd run into the same kind of discrimination that women in games do. There are whole areas in Japan where it's not only legal, but common, for stores to refuse service to anyone who isn't Japanese. Of course I can understand discrimination. Just because I don't run into it right now, in America, doesn't mean I never had, or I can't.

Then you should have empathy for what some women in the industry go through but you'll never fully understand b/c your not a woman. People look at you and treat you differently b/c of it and therefore can't totally understand what they go through but having being discriminated against will help you empathize with them.

What are you talking about? Are you saying that the way a woman feels for being discriminated against in her vidya game job is somehow different than the way a man feels for being discriminated against in his kiddie care job? It's literally the exact same thing. Women doesn't get some special "super discrimination" that only they ever get, in certain places, it's quite possible to get the exact same thing as a man.

Saying stuff like "You'll never understand" just marginalizes people for no reason at all. It's divisive and dismissive, and hurts the issue more than it helps.

Huh? How did you come to that conclusion? I said you should have empathy since you know what its like to be discriminated against. Also, unless your a woman and have been harassed or discriminated against, no your not gonna be able to have sympathy b/c your not a woman who's been harassed. People have different experiences partially based on their in dentiy ( ie, woman, man, black, white, etc) because of that, its nearly impossible to have sympathy for them, but you can empathize with what they are going through b/c it really sucks what happened to them.

Posted by randomfella21

@CarlosTheDwarf said:

#1reasonwhy Because at a games networking event, someone a beta herb whom I was not at all attracted to asked for my business card and proceeded to flirt via text the next morning.

— Kristen Halloran (@anetherealtwist) November 27, 2012

FIFY

Hahahahahaha slow clap...

Posted by Trainer_Red

@kalparun said:

@mellotronrules said:

@kalparun said:

@mellotronrules said:

@Trainer_Red said:

@kalparun said:

Thing is, you can't really oppose feminism in video games without feminists automaticaly labeling you as a sexist chauvinist so I'll let a woman handle this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZueOCLGt1tw#!

Wow. Awesome video.

that was an interesting take. thanks for sharing that. and she isn't wrong- i doubt most games are designed from the perspective of a 'misogynistic agenda.' but you can't look at a game like duke nukem (whatever permutation you choose) and not notice it's treatment of women. yes, it's probably 'all in good fun,' but that doesn't change it's treatment. also, when she says (direct quote from 4:50) "videogames are meant to be fun, and for recreation and relaxation. they are not supposed to be a social message on the real problematic views in society." that's a judgement call- what they are 'supposed' to be is all well and good (and open to interpretation), but to deny that there's any sort of social undercurrent or implicit messages in media is to claim they exist in a vacuum, devoid of any authorship or humanity. which in my opinion, is bulllshit. but that's another argument entirely.

regardless- her arguments are somewhat tangential to the discussion here. she's speaking specifically to misogynistic design- that's it's own argument. this article is speaking to women and their personal experiences with the gaming community- which are personal by their very nature, therefore very difficult to dismiss. you can take issue if someone personally claims you're a misogynist- but to claim others are somehow discredited by venting about personal experiences- that's pretty absurd and/or unreasonable.

Now that you say that, I was wondering...

How does the portrayal of the women in Duke Nukem hurt women in real life society?

I mean really, it hasn't changed the way I treat my mother or girlfriend in any way. Did it change yours? I'm sure not.

Perhaps, instead of trying to censor potentially hurtful media, we should actually provide people with the education to fend off such messages.

And if that fails, the problem is not sexism, it's education.

But by the same logic, how is the portrayal of Duke Nukem himself NOT hurtful to males?

well, i'm not a woman so i can't argue from a female's perspective. but i would imagine women might take issue with the way they're 'used' in duke nukem- less individuals with personalities or contributions, and more objects to be fondled or saved. and it's fantastic that "it hasn't changed the way [you] treat [your] mother or girlfriend in anyway." that makes you a sane, reasoned person. because if that wasn't the case, and the media did directly affect us, we'd be mindless parrot-like husks that simply mimic what we see. we'd all be dead by now. but to argue it has zero effect is equally extreme. duke nukem is an institution in video games- and all that baggage comes with him.

and you're absolutely correct that education is essential to negotiating the media. but arguing that we should simply be 'better educated' as opposed to expecting more from games and it's culture is somewhat self-defeating. we need both education, and to demand better. just because i'm educated enough to recognize the mediocrity that is duke nukem doesn't make it any less garbage. wouldn't you find it depressing if you were of a society that produced garbarge, or mistreated it's own?

and for the record- men should take issue with duke, if only from a masculine perspective. dude is a huge douchebag, by any stretch, and an embarrassment to the sex.

1) I'm sure the effect you're talking about can be seen on some people but my question is WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?

My guess is that they wouldn't have treated women nicely in the first place. Censoring and removing content won't help them.

Removing, filtering and censoring content isn't the way to "expect more from games" as you said.(read my second point on how to do that)

Just because someone might take the wrong messages and discriminate against his wife for example, it doesn't mean that I should get restricted content.

In fact that guy was crazy in the first place and blaming it on random portrayals in video games is really just illogical. I mean really, was sexism less of an issue before video games? Even if video games have an effect, I can imagine how that effect takes place in just a negligible percentage of men, who WOULD discriminate against women anyway.

If you can prove me wrong on this last point (with actual proof, study etc), I'd be glad, because it's been troubling me for quite some time now. If not, I think the issue lies elsewhere and we should let video games alone.

2) So how do we actually ask for MORE out of this industry?

Not by censoring inappropriate content but actually ENCOURAGING the "CORRECT" portrayal.

That's really a more creative way, a healthier way. Shout out for Faith's portrayal if you like it, praise Alyx Vance and that girl from portal if that's your thing! Give a hint to developers and publishers!

I really don't like the SEEK AND DESTROY process some feminists have gotten into use.

What might or not be cause of something negative for someone, might be the cause for something positive for someone else.

For example, I admit I did enjoy the boobage and butt shots in Duke Nukem and at the end of the day, I still held respect to my female friends. Is that so bad?

Let's be creative and show the way forward; being destructive is only going to drive us backwards. Cheers.

IM SORRY I RESPONDED, BUT CAN YOU GUYS STOP QUOTING ME?

All I did was like a video >.<

Posted by kalparun

@mellotronrules said:

@kalparun said:

@mellotronrules said:

@Trainer_Red said:

@kalparun said:

Thing is, you can't really oppose feminism in video games without feminists automaticaly labeling you as a sexist chauvinist so I'll let a woman handle this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZueOCLGt1tw#!

Wow. Awesome video.

that was an interesting take. thanks for sharing that. and she isn't wrong- i doubt most games are designed from the perspective of a 'misogynistic agenda.' but you can't look at a game like duke nukem (whatever permutation you choose) and not notice it's treatment of women. yes, it's probably 'all in good fun,' but that doesn't change it's treatment. also, when she says (direct quote from 4:50) "videogames are meant to be fun, and for recreation and relaxation. they are not supposed to be a social message on the real problematic views in society." that's a judgement call- what they are 'supposed' to be is all well and good (and open to interpretation), but to deny that there's any sort of social undercurrent or implicit messages in media is to claim they exist in a vacuum, devoid of any authorship or humanity. which in my opinion, is bulllshit. but that's another argument entirely.

regardless- her arguments are somewhat tangential to the discussion here. she's speaking specifically to misogynistic design- that's it's own argument. this article is speaking to women and their personal experiences with the gaming community- which are personal by their very nature, therefore very difficult to dismiss. you can take issue if someone personally claims you're a misogynist- but to claim others are somehow discredited by venting about personal experiences- that's pretty absurd and/or unreasonable.

Now that you say that, I was wondering...

How does the portrayal of the women in Duke Nukem hurt women in real life society?

I mean really, it hasn't changed the way I treat my mother or girlfriend in any way. Did it change yours? I'm sure not.

Perhaps, instead of trying to censor potentially hurtful media, we should actually provide people with the education to fend off such messages.

And if that fails, the problem is not sexism, it's education.

But by the same logic, how is the portrayal of Duke Nukem himself NOT hurtful to males?

well, i'm not a woman so i can't argue from a female's perspective. but i would imagine women might take issue with the way they're 'used' in duke nukem- less individuals with personalities or contributions, and more objects to be fondled or saved. and it's fantastic that "it hasn't changed the way [you] treat [your] mother or girlfriend in anyway." that makes you a sane, reasoned person. because if that wasn't the case, and the media did directly affect us, we'd be mindless parrot-like husks that simply mimic what we see. we'd all be dead by now. but to argue it has zero effect is equally extreme. duke nukem is an institution in video games- and all that baggage comes with him.

and you're absolutely correct that education is essential to negotiating the media. but arguing that we should simply be 'better educated' as opposed to expecting more from games and it's culture is somewhat self-defeating. we need both education, and to demand better. just because i'm educated enough to recognize the mediocrity that is duke nukem doesn't make it any less garbage. wouldn't you find it depressing if you were of a society that produced garbarge, or mistreated it's own?

and for the record- men should take issue with duke, if only from a masculine perspective. dude is a huge douchebag, by any stretch, and an embarrassment to the sex.

1) I'm sure the effect you're talking about can be seen on some people but my question is WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE?

My guess is that they wouldn't have treated women nicely in the first place. Censoring and removing content won't help them.

Removing, filtering and censoring content isn't the way to "expect more from games" as you said.(read my second point on how to do that)

Just because someone might take the wrong messages and discriminate against his wife for example, it doesn't mean that I should get restricted content.

In fact that guy was crazy in the first place and blaming it on random portrayals in video games is really just illogical. I mean really, was sexism less of an issue before video games? Even if video games have an effect, I can imagine how that effect takes place in just a negligible percentage of men, who WOULD discriminate against women anyway.

If you can prove me wrong on this last point (with actual proof, study etc), I'd be glad, because it's been troubling me for quite some time now. If not, I think the issue lies elsewhere and we should let video games alone.

2) So how do we actually ask for MORE out of this industry?

Not by censoring inappropriate content but actually ENCOURAGING the "CORRECT" portrayal.

That's really a more creative way, a healthier way. Shout out for Faith's portrayal if you like it, praise Alyx Vance and that girl from portal if that's your thing! Give a hint to developers and publishers!

I really don't like the SEEK AND DESTROY process some feminists have gotten into use.

What might or not be cause of something negative for someone, might be the cause for something positive for someone else.

For example, I admit I did enjoy the boobage and butt shots in Duke Nukem and at the end of the day, I still held respect to my female friends. Is that so bad?

Let's be creative and show the way forward; being destructive is only going to drive us backwards. Cheers.

Posted by randomfella21

@MildMolasses said:

@CaptStickybeard said:

@NoTicket said:

Women in the tech and gaming world need to take responsibility for their image as well. It does not help matters when Veronica Belmont and Felicia Day host a webcast called "Vaginal Fantasy" and Nixie Pixel is posting top down cleavage shots as her profile pics. Many of the foremost "nerdy women" play up their sexuality and play a pivotal part of keeping the industry sexist.

Things aren't really going to move forward until we start to see women that don't talk about being a woman in the gaming industry, but are like Jonathan Blow, creating personal games that they care deeply about.

This is a fantastic point that no one seemed to notice.

There's a difference between choosing to sexualize yourself and being sexualized by others. None of those tweets were complaining about being treated like objects while they were doing cosplay photoshoots

Oh man is it really such a horrible thing that I as a man look at an attractive woman and sexualize her? Men and women sexualize each other aaaaalllll the time it's why the species hasn't died out yet.

Posted by randomfella21

@Do_The_Manta_Ray said:

"No advance in wealth, no softening of manners, no reform or revolution has ever brought human equality a millimeter nearer."

What I want to know, is why sexism consists exlusively under the purview of women. When they grandly proclaim that to be a women is hard and to be a man is easy, where is the consideration that they demand for themselves? Men are to treat them as equals, I hear you say. Then I ask, what would be considered equality under these conditions? Are men to treat women how they treat other women, as they treat men, as men treat women, as men treat men, or as something brand new, something that goes beyond the sexes, biology, nature and frankly, sense? Ironically, it's the only possibility as we are all, so different and so alike. It's a series of self-aware paradoxes that the majority of people tweeting seems to become utterly oblivious of in their rampaging serial-contrarian complaints. Not only is a state of non-sexism impossible for it is in our genetic code to view the other gender differently, but if such a state is desired, a non-state, so to speak, where all is equal and all is considered and forgotten at once in the brashest form of double-think, then how can we ever achieve it if we go to such lenghts, as seen in these posts, to seperate the two genders as to make one the scape-goat for the state of the other?

We all look at sexism with a frown on our face, for whatever reason we individually feel that it somehow incriminates or incapacitates us, but show me a society, a world, where women and men were treated the very same and I'll show you a world without sentient thought. Sexism seems to be defined as differential behaviour of the two sexes when one takes umbrage and catergorically decides to interpret it as an inherent fault of the other gender. Sexist in itself, the paradoxes are endless.

The thing is that you'd have to be sexless in order not to be sexist for it's all so very subjective, and we are all different due to so many different factors, one of them being sex. So then it's sexist to reform your way of thinking in order to better encompass the other gender and how you treat them for that invites the implication that you think you have to treat them in a softer, more pandering manner for they cannot handle what you have to hand out, thus a sexist notion. It's sexist to ignore them and act in a brusque, stereotypical fashion without consideration of the difference in gender, for to ignore the need of the other, to see them as equally able to take and receive as you might implies that the sensibilities of others are beyond your capacity of understanding and that you so will not go to greater lengths in order to understand what might offend or please the other gender, thus a sexist notion. And it is uniformly sexist to claim that the other gender is beholden, and yes even responsible, for your useless complaints, a sexist notion.

We are different, but we've managed to survive together, for very obvious reasons, for quite some time now. What these women and men seem to fail to understand is that both sides need to give ground, and that said ground will only be given unwillingly, and that finally if achieved, it will accomplish nothing for it's in how we differentiate that the spark of interest, attraction and thus, life itself lies.

This is seriously the most eloquent and reasonable post I've seen on the internet in a looooooong time. Bravo.

Posted by OneManX

@Onkel_Apan said:

@OneManX said:

treat women with respect, treat people with respect in the workplace.

i give respect to people that deserve my respect. "treat all women with respect"? some of the most hateful, disgusting and selfish people i met has been women. Should i give them respect just because they have a vagina? No, i treat everyone equal and that make feminists hate me when i call them out on their bullshit sometimes. but hey, maybe i should just swallow all the shit that thrown at me just because i am a white male.

To be real... yup.

Just because some people treat you wrong, doesn't men everyone has to measure up to some imaginary test to get some respect. If I meet someone, I say Hi, I smile, I shake hands, if they dont respond back, it doesn't bother me... because I know I did what was right. And keep it moving.

Posted by mellotronrules

@kalparun said:

@mellotronrules said:

@Trainer_Red said:

@kalparun said:

Thing is, you can't really oppose feminism in video games without feminists automaticaly labeling you as a sexist chauvinist so I'll let a woman handle this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZueOCLGt1tw#!

Wow. Awesome video.

that was an interesting take. thanks for sharing that. and she isn't wrong- i doubt most games are designed from the perspective of a 'misogynistic agenda.' but you can't look at a game like duke nukem (whatever permutation you choose) and not notice it's treatment of women. yes, it's probably 'all in good fun,' but that doesn't change it's treatment. also, when she says (direct quote from 4:50) "videogames are meant to be fun, and for recreation and relaxation. they are not supposed to be a social message on the real problematic views in society." that's a judgement call- what they are 'supposed' to be is all well and good (and open to interpretation), but to deny that there's any sort of social undercurrent or implicit messages in media is to claim they exist in a vacuum, devoid of any authorship or humanity. which in my opinion, is bulllshit. but that's another argument entirely.

regardless- her arguments are somewhat tangential to the discussion here. she's speaking specifically to misogynistic design- that's it's own argument. this article is speaking to women and their personal experiences with the gaming community- which are personal by their very nature, therefore very difficult to dismiss. you can take issue if someone personally claims you're a misogynist- but to claim others are somehow discredited by venting about personal experiences- that's pretty absurd and/or unreasonable.

Now that you say that, I was wondering...

How does the portrayal of the women in Duke Nukem hurt women in real life society?

I mean really, it hasn't changed the way I treat my mother or girlfriend in any way. Did it change yours? I'm sure not.

Perhaps, instead of trying to censor potentially hurtful media, we should actually provide people with the education to fend off such messages.

And if that fails, the problem is not sexism, it's education.

But by the same logic, how is the portrayal of Duke Nukem himself NOT hurtful to males?

well, i'm not a woman so i can't argue from a female's perspective. but i would imagine women might take issue with the way they're 'used' in duke nukem- less individuals with personalities or contributions, and more objects to be fondled or saved. and it's fantastic that "it hasn't changed the way [you] treat [your] mother or girlfriend in anyway." that makes you a sane, reasoned person. because if that wasn't the case, and the media did directly affect us, we'd be mindless parrot-like husks that simply mimic what we see. we'd all be dead by now. but to argue it has zero effect is equally extreme. duke nukem is an institution in video games- and all that baggage comes with him.

and you're absolutely correct that education is essential to negotiating the media. but arguing that we should simply be 'better educated' as opposed to expecting more from games and it's culture is somewhat self-defeating. we need both education, and to demand better. just because i'm educated enough to recognize the mediocrity that is duke nukem doesn't make it any less garbage. wouldn't you find it depressing if you were of a society that produced garbarge, or mistreated it's own?

and for the record- men should take issue with duke, if only from a masculine perspective. dude is a huge douchebag, by any stretch, and an embarrassment to the sex.

Posted by jmood88

@kalparun said:

@mellotronrules said:

@Trainer_Red said:

@kalparun said:

Thing is, you can't really oppose feminism in video games without feminists automaticaly labeling you as a sexist chauvinist so I'll let a woman handle this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZueOCLGt1tw#!

Wow. Awesome video.

that was an interesting take. thanks for sharing that. and she isn't wrong- i doubt most games are designed from the perspective of a 'misogynistic agenda.' but you can't look at a game like duke nukem (whatever permutation you choose) and not notice it's treatment of women. yes, it's probably 'all in good fun,' but that doesn't change it's treatment. also, when she says (direct quote from 4:50) "videogames are meant to be fun, and for recreation and relaxation. they are not supposed to be a social message on the real problematic views in society." that's a judgement call- what they are 'supposed' to be is all well and good (and open to interpretation), but to deny that there's any sort of social undercurrent or implicit messages in media is to claim they exist in a vacuum, devoid of any authorship or humanity. which in my opinion, is bulllshit. but that's another argument entirely.

regardless- her arguments are somewhat tangential to the discussion here. she's speaking specifically to misogynistic design- that's it's own argument. this article is speaking to women and their personal experiences with the gaming community- which are personal by their very nature, therefore very difficult to dismiss. you can take issue if someone personally claims you're a misogynist- but to claim others are somehow discredited by venting about personal experiences- that's pretty absurd and/or unreasonable.

Now that you say that, I was wondering...

How does the portrayal of the women in Duke Nukem hurt women in real life society?

I mean really, it hasn't changed the way I treat my mother or girlfriend in any way. Did it change yours? I'm sure not.

Perhaps, instead of trying to censor potentially hurtful media, we should actually provide people with the education to fend off such messages.

And if that fails, the problem is not sexism, it's education.

But by the same logic, how is the portrayal of Duke Nukem himself NOT hurtful to males?

There's a very valid argument that one could make about characters like Duke Nukem or the portrayal of men in the media being harmful to men, which is what I wish people would argue instead of "I didn't say anything about how bad I was treated so I don't see why these women are whining" type of argument that you and others have made. If you experienced something that you felt wasn't right, then speak up, don't try to minimize what these women have gone through.

Posted by jmood88

@Kovski said:

I find it sad that everytime someone, usually a female, bring up sexism there is always tons of men saying there is no sexism, they just need to adapt. I think that says a lot about the whole issue.

It happens pretty much anytime a minority in any situation brings up problems that they have. It's a damn shame that anyone thinks that women talking about their experiences dealing with sexism in an industry that is known for sexism are simply "whining".

Edited by kalparun

@mellotronrules said:

@Trainer_Red said:

@kalparun said:

Thing is, you can't really oppose feminism in video games without feminists automaticaly labeling you as a sexist chauvinist so I'll let a woman handle this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZueOCLGt1tw#!

Wow. Awesome video.

that was an interesting take. thanks for sharing that. and she isn't wrong- i doubt most games are designed from the perspective of a 'misogynistic agenda.' but you can't look at a game like duke nukem (whatever permutation you choose) and not notice it's treatment of women. yes, it's probably 'all in good fun,' but that doesn't change it's treatment. also, when she says (direct quote from 4:50) "videogames are meant to be fun, and for recreation and relaxation. they are not supposed to be a social message on the real problematic views in society." that's a judgement call- what they are 'supposed' to be is all well and good (and open to interpretation), but to deny that there's any sort of social undercurrent or implicit messages in media is to claim they exist in a vacuum, devoid of any authorship or humanity. which in my opinion, is bulllshit. but that's another argument entirely.

regardless- her arguments are somewhat tangential to the discussion here. she's speaking specifically to misogynistic design- that's it's own argument. this article is speaking to women and their personal experiences with the gaming community- which are personal by their very nature, therefore very difficult to dismiss. you can take issue if someone personally claims you're a misogynist- but to claim others are somehow discredited by venting about personal experiences- that's pretty absurd and/or unreasonable.

Now that you say that, I was wondering...

How does the portrayal of the women in Duke Nukem hurt women in real life society?

I mean really, it hasn't changed the way I treat my mother or girlfriend in any way. Did it change yours? I'm sure not.

Perhaps, instead of trying to censor potentially hurtful media, we should actually provide people with the education to fend off such messages.

And if that fails, the problem is not sexism, it's education.

But by the same logic, how is the portrayal of Duke Nukem himself NOT hurtful to males?

Posted by allworkandlowpay

@Kovski said:

I find it sad that everytime someone, usually a female, bring up sexism there is always tons of men saying there is no sexism, they just need to adapt. I think that says a lot about the whole issue.

Usually, the issue isn't that men don't believe in sexism. In 9 out of 10 of those cases you say you see, I usually find that the men "attack" the idea of sexism because the situation brought up by the woman going "OMG sexism" is rarely actually sexism at all.

Posted by scottygrayskull

"Guys must love you."

That's a whole other can of worms, the assumption that guys all want gamer girls.

But yeah, it's really not cool. Not to excuse it, but it's hardly unique to the video game industry. I'd like to think we've made progress over the years, but we definitely still have a long way to go to stamp out these attitudes.

Posted by kalparun

@Archaen said:

@Kierkegaard said:

@Archaen said:

@Kierkegaard said:

@Terramagi said:

I guess it really comes down to this: if women are treated differently from men, you're sexist. If they're treated the same as men, you're a misogynist.

What are you talking about? If someone is treated as less of a person because she is a woman, she is experiencing sexism, as the women in the twitter hashtag are exemplifying. That's it. That's the only if, then statement here.

What he's referring to is the phenomenon of many feminist women saying they want to be treated as equal but then also wanting men to open doors for her and pay for dinner and drinks. It's incredibly common. Treating a woman as an actual equal isn't really considered enough with many feminists. You need to treat them as equals in some situations and as delicate, wonderful flowers in other situations. The end result is that the woman wants to be treated overall better than a man would be.

That's a trumped up, unreal phenomenon. Feminists, with whom I try to include myself but feel that I have much to learn, present themselves and their beliefs far better than you appear to. Doesn't make anyone above criticism. Does mean that criticism should come from a real place, not a fabricated fear.

It is neither trumped up nor unreal. It is a daily occurrence for many men to meet or deal with women who think that way. Just because your feminist friends and writers you've read don't think that way doesn't mean many, many women do.

And let's not forget, when you're trying to make something equal with the other, you either support the weak or take away from the strong.

When you apply the latter approach to a group's social provileges, you dramatically deteriorate society's quality as a whole and that's exactly what I think the modern, tweeter age feminists are doing.

For example, when you're trying to forcibly shake away the dominance of males in the video game's industry, instead of trying to gradually and naturally become a part of it, people are going to get upset and hurt each other.

Dear ladies, Instead of wanting current video games to change for you (which will make you and us both unhappy by the result), try and make developers make OTHER video games who appeal to you. It's how free market works. Diversity is a good thing. We can't all enjoy the same stuff.

That way, we all stay pleased and happy.

Edited by mellotronrules

@Trainer_Red said:

@kalparun said:

Thing is, you can't really oppose feminism in video games without feminists automaticaly labeling you as a sexist chauvinist so I'll let a woman handle this issue.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=ZueOCLGt1tw#!

Wow. Awesome video.

that was an interesting take. thanks for sharing that. and she isn't wrong- i doubt most games are designed from the perspective of a 'misogynistic agenda.' but you can't look at a game like duke nukem (whatever permutation you choose) and not notice it's treatment of women. yes, it's probably 'all in good fun,' but that doesn't change it's treatment. also, when she says (direct quote from 4:50) "videogames are meant to be fun, and for recreation and relaxation. they are not supposed to be a social message on the real problematic views in society." that's a judgement call- what they are 'supposed' to be is all well and good (and open to interpretation), but to deny that there's any sort of social undercurrent or implicit messages in media is to claim they exist in a vacuum, devoid of any authorship or humanity. which in my opinion, is bulllshit. but that's another argument entirely.

regardless- her arguments are somewhat tangential to the discussion here. she's speaking specifically to misogynistic design- that's it's own argument. this article is speaking to women and their personal experiences with the gaming community- which are personal by their very nature, therefore very difficult to dismiss. you can take issue if someone personally claims you're a misogynist- but to claim others are somehow discredited by venting about personal experiences- that's pretty absurd and/or unreasonable.