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Posted by sixpin

@jozzy said:

@bloodsoul5 said:

@jozzy said:

@CaptStickybeard said:

Oh.

She has a point, just a shame it dominated those specific Giant Bomb shows. Also, I am not sure the reaction from the community would've been different if it was a man doing the exact same thing. Interesting though.

She doesnt have a point at all. drunk and annoying is terrible regardless of gender.

What she is implying, is that when man are drunk and obnoxious, you will see it as an incident and don't really change your long term perception of them. With a woman, she is regarded as "that drunk obnoxious bitch". That definitely happened on this site. Like I said, if a man had done the same, we might have felt the same way, but I am no so sure.

Yeah, Ryan and Brad don't have to be drunk to get called "bad at games." Not to mention that Patrick and Alex get name called in almost every post. I think - in this case - it is more likely that people on the Internet are just judgmental jerks that hold grudges.

Posted by Nottle

Oh god thinking about it is there really much of a difference between Faith and Lightning? I kind of hate that type of character.

Posted by Amafi

@KoolAid said:

@Amafi said:

@CaptStickybeard said:

Oh.

She must not have heard herself on the bombcast. That shit took annoying to a whole new level.

Leigh herself admits that she was obnoxious. No one is denying that. The point is that event follows her around like a ghost. The point is that there is so much more to her then that one night she got drunk on a live stream and said 775 million dollars. I get annoyed at the crew here sometimes, but I don't hold it against them that they are probably going to blow off Max Payne 3 for GOTY. Much.

The question is, do we hold it against her it because she is a woman, or is it because she was annoying?

Silly question.

Also, I think the main reason is that she's not here every week to help fix her image. For many people that performance will be the only time they've heard her speak. The crew makes me shake my head in disgust at times but then they have a history of great content and I know they'll make me look like a maniac laughing to myself on the bus in a week or two anyways, so that's completely different.

Posted by FoxMulder

Faith from Mirror's Edge was the one you picked as a memorable protagonist?? All I remember were the stupidly animated cutscenes and replaying parts over and over just to make it to the end....not the quality of the lead character. I hate to beat a dead horse, but isn't Alyx Vance the de-facto answer when it comes to memorable female protagonists?

Edited by FuzzYLemoN

When it comes to female game developers, that's just a stigma that isn't going to change (any time soon, if at all). Many things are not fair in the world, but that's just the way they are, and they're not going to change, no matter how much anyone would like them to. Men have just as many stigmas as women do; flight attendants, secretaries, nurses, librarians, elementary school teachers, etc. Men and women are not equal (both ways), but we are, based on social archetypes, complimentary.

Posted by ZedsDeadBaby

@Skodra said:

Holy moly I am disappointed in the Giant Bomb community. This article has really flushed out a bunch of really gross dudes.

I take it you don't read these comments often?

Posted by jbuchan76

Why can't we just get along?

Posted by Qlanth

I want to say I'm shocked that a bunch of people who self-identify as "gamers" don't understand or care about sexism in the industry but I would be lying if I did. Once again all you have to do to see the entire community has a problem is to read a comment section like this. Jesus people get a grip.

Posted by nukesniper

@l4wd0g said:

Being a male nurse, you can easily have that reversed. It's a societal normality issues.

A nurse is a woman's job.

Construction workers is a man's job.

Then there are the unisex jobs like a lawyer, doctor etc.

It's not they can't do the job, it's just different form what "it should be."

*EDIT my iOS device made that into a narrly looking paragraph. had to fix it.

Good point. As a society we need to get rid of that thought that "it should be" a certain way. Who cares if it is what you want to do?

Posted by bugmeyer

I work at a game developer that has females at nearly every level of authority in practically every department. It's super valuable! Game companies that bias towards a purely male perspective are cheating themselves of potential market share.

If you feel like the AAA game industry is slipping, you might agree that this could be part of the problem.

Posted by cmblasko

@Dogma said:

@MEATBALL said:

Straight up - I have no goddamn idea how to deal with this stuff. I feel like I'm being made to feel guilty for things that other people have done and then feel shitty about myself that that's my gut reaction to this sort of thing. I try not to be an awful person.

THIS. A THOUSAND TIMES THIS.

You're interpreting these accusations directed from women that you don't known towards men you don't know into an indictment against yourself just by virtue of being a man, thus making yourself out to be the victim. That is extremely narcissistic.

Posted by jozzy

@SpicyRichter said:

It's funny this is such a big deal when women in the middle east aren't even allowed to show their faces outside the home. Maybe some of this energy should be put into fighting for their rights?

There are places where kids have to work 10 hours a day for a few bowls of rice, maybe some energy should be put into fighting for their rights? Oh wait no, there are places where people die because of hunger, all energy should be put into that. Do you see how dumb that argument is?

Posted by gogosox82

@AlexW00d: I have no idea what you just wrote. How is Patrick being misogynist?

Posted by SharkMan

good on you, got a fan from this article, tired of all this bullshit. Men keep saying its "in our nature" but that's crap, we just don't try hard enough to look at it from the other side. fight the good fight.

Its not just sexism, there is a lot of bigotry in the gaming industry, regarding religion, age, and race in the stories, but that's just freedom of speech... right.

Edited by Ravelle

I can understood that the women can have some difficulty adjusting to the gaming-man styles work places and it's horrible but hashtagging twitters isn't going to do much.

I also don't understand how people can mistake a representative for a company for a boothbabe because either that person can't tell the difference regular clothing and boothbabe cosplay and sexywear or the lady in question should think of changing in to something more appropriate.

In either way, there are always dicks no matter where you are and you should not take anything they say serious.

Posted by McGhee

@CaLe said:

Baldism is worse than sexism. At least sexism gets some goddamned attention. Baldism never does. Fuck that shit.

Damn right. People of the bald persuasion unite!

#1baldreasonwhy

Posted by martyarf

@Arx724: Truly a burden comparable to that of women.

Posted by johnbon

@IcarusFoundYou: yeah i don't think its a big an issue as its made out to be, maybe i just don't get it because im a guy. If you want respect stand up for yourself in real life not on the internet. works for me and a lot of women i know.

Posted by DeathByWaffle

Faith is definitely not "one of the most memorable protagonists" in games. I really liked Mirror's Edge, but I can barely remember any detail about her character except that she had a sister.

Posted by mrfluke

@vonFlampanker said:

@Dogma said:

@MEATBALL said:

Straight up - I have no goddamn idea how to deal with this stuff. I feel like I'm being made to feel guilty for things that other people have done and then feel shitty about myself that that's my gut reaction to this sort of thing. I try not to be an awful person.

THIS. A THOUSAND TIMES THIS.

Yeah, I'll add another thousand to this, too.

lemme throw another thousand to this as well.

Posted by MariachiMacabre
@Milkman
@TyCobb

"#1resonwhy Wah! My vagina hurts because I don't know how to take a stand. Wah!"

I have a solution, grow some fucking balls. It seems to have worked for the males in the workplace. Seriously though, learn to take a stand. Ranting on Twitter isn't going to do anything. Perhaps you should actually fight at your workplace for what you believe/want. If your workplace isn't treating you the way you should be treated, sue their ass if it is discrimination. Laws are in place for a reason.

Fucking do something or STFU. Thanks.

You're so stupid it hurts.
Yep.
Edited by EthanML

Emm, did I get sucked in to some horrible alternate universe where GB turned in to Kotaku/Gamasutra?

Posted by Daius
@martyarf said:

Jeff: "You take it back to those roots of you're really getting in someone's ass fighting them, just talking as much shit as you can."

Patrick: "You want them to feel bad. Fighting games are as much a psychological game as it is the actual game that is playing out."

[Note: What the fuck?]

...

Patrick: "When you step back and think 'did I mean that?', no."

Jeff: "But in context it's probably okay."

Patrick: "Right."

Yeah this is a huge part of the problem and kind of a double standard. Trivialisation of rape as a serious issue isn't an appropriate part of shit talking or frustration, just as using slurs isn't. It's not kosher trying to talk up how women aren't treated fairly in an industry while you use this sort of rhetoric that trivialises other aspects of sexism.

Posted by Thoseposers

@Elephantgun: that story really bummed me out :/ you must really love fighting games to stick around people like that

Posted by TurboMan

*Looks at the comment section*

Posted by Indarys

The issue with fighting sexism is that most people focus on the wrong thing. Something different from the norm, for 99.9% of people, will get different treatment, instinctively. It's the same reason people can't help but look at someone with a deformity, even though they know it's rude. It's human nature. Treating women differently in the video game industry is a product of the fact that women, as a rule, don't generally -want- to be in the video game industry as much as men do. On the flip side of the coin, try being a male child care worker, or a nurse.

Rather than blaming people for something that they usually can't help, the solution is to make multiculturalism and diversity the norm. I was lucky enough to grow up in an incredibly racially diverse environment, and as a result, racial difference doesn't phase me. Someone growing up in a completely homogeneous environment, when the "one" racial family moves in, is going to be "racist," hopefully not in a harmful way, but will certainly treat the new family differently than their peers.

The solution, thus, is to stop making products that appeal to only one gender. If all games appealed equally to both genders, both genders would likely be interested in being in the industry. The a whole new set of issues crops up, of course, in turning a homogenous industry into a diverse one. That's a whole different ball of wax, of course, but we aren't even at that bridge yet. You'd think that games like The Sims or World of Warcraft that do a good job of appealing to both genders would be what the industry -wants- to go for, since you're basically doubling your market, but as it stands, we still have the industry dominated by shootan games and D&D nerd battle babes. Instead of blaming men as a whole for something that's a product of their environment, the focus should be on changing the environment. Telling someone "If you like scantily clad women you're part of the problem" is going to hurt more than help--men like scantily clad women because they've been indoctrinated from birth to do so. They're as much victims of their environment as women who feel the need to diet and preen like supermodels. Fix the environment, you fix the problem. Get angry at people, and you are not only victim blaming, but making the problem worse.

Edited by patrickklepek

@martyarf said:

@patrickklepek: You don't remember what you said on the podcast? You and Jeff went to painstaking lengths to explain the "culture" of the FGC, eager to place the rape threats in "context". You don't remember Brad saying something to the effect of "You guys are nuts, this guy is a fucking psycho"?

The "context" was how someone would say something stupid they wouldn't otherwise say in front of others, but if I gave the impression I was at all okay with his comments, that's my fault, and know I believed his statements were 100% wrong.

Edited by Harkat

@ProfessorEss said:

I would never roll my eyes at the cause but I can't help but roll my eyes at the medium. I'm sorry but the comment "These tweets are genuine..." is, is... y'know what, I can't even explain how ridiculous that sounds to me (perhaps someone could explain to what a genuine tweet is and how it's genuineness is verified).

Maybe I'm just getting too old but Tweeting and Facebooking are, in my opinion, a way of saying "I'm too lazy to actually do anything about this but I sure like chiming in with my opinion so, Tweet!" If anything, I have to wonder if this kind of behaviour will actually prolong the issue more than anything else because everyone will read a few tweets, drop a one-liner, pat themselves on the back for being so great, and go back to ignoring the issue because "Hey! I did my part, I made a tweet!".

@Droop said:

Faith is "one of the most memorable protagonists"? I fucking LOVE Mirror's Edge, but come on. That's there is just straight up bullshit.

I agree. Faith is an example of what I'd like to see us move past in order to help move the female protagonist forward. If someone can tell me how she has any more depth than a cardboard cut-out of a strong-willed, independent woman I'm all ears.

Character depth, in general, is lacking. That isn't a gender-related issue, though. Faith, though not particularly interesting, is a step in the right direction because she's a protagonist that happens to be female, isn't sexualized, and performs her task like any male protagonist. It'd be great if her character was more meaningful, but games lack this overall.

Posted by Arx724

@martyarf said:

@Arx724: Truly a burden comparable to that of women.

Again, why should I care?

Posted by bemusedchunk

@l4wd0g said:

Being a male nurse, you can easily have that reversed. It's a societal normality issues.

A nurse is a woman's job.

Construction workers is a man's job.

Then there are the unisex jobs like a lawyer, doctor etc.

It's not they can't do the job, it's just different form what "it should be."

*EDIT my iOS device made that into a narrly looking paragraph. had to fix it.

I work in IT, which many people consider a man's job.

We have a woman on the help desk who takes calls, just the same as everyone else. She has had users - females users - request that she be transferred to a man who can resolve her issue.

It's definitely a societal and cultural thing.

Posted by Alorithin

Can we go back to helping furries with fursecution?

Can't wait for the inevitable controversial tomb raider opinion article.

Posted by NDart

@FuzzYLemoN: Thanks for posting this. To clarify before someone yells at you though, this doesn't mean that workplace harassment isn't an issue, it's just the way that some things, for better or worse, are.

@bugmeyer: Actually I think attempting to sell every game to every single gamer is the main reason why a lot of games aren't being as well received as they used to, that obviously has nothing to do with who's on the dev team though.

Posted by lanerobertlane

As i tweeted earlier in the twitter debate, I feel for anyone that has to work in conditions where sexism is not just prevalent but systemic to the industry. I can imagine the same type of actions highlighted here are also endemic to the car manufacturing industry; Male dominated businesses relying on a largely male consumer base. Hence why a lot of marketing in both sectors involve 'Booth Babes' or Models with a DS strapped to them and legs-a-kimbo on the bonnet of a car.

Even in my old industry of Bar work sexism was prevalent. Both ways; Female's were more likely to be hired as bar staff and waitresses then there male counterparts, while most Door/security staff are male. This even extended to one of my prior bosses telling me that jobs were divided into "Blue jobs and Pink Jobs" Blue jobs included Deliveries, Heavy lifting and dealing with more intimidating customers, while pink jobs included decorating the bar for events. The prime example of this is that a company like Hooters would not hire a male as a waitress, they all have to be 'Hooters Girls' with a "girl next door image".

I guess my overall point is that from my experience as a Man, i've witnessed sexism on both sides and its unfortunately obvious to me that Women suffer from it worse. It is NEVER okay to be sexist.

Just as a side note. The people who always come out with comments like "feminazi" and "they don't want equality, they want to be better than Men" need to re-evaluate themselves. That makes you sexist and in some ways on par with type of racist people who say "we're a minority in our own country!"

That's just my opinion and experiences on the subject.

Edited by mutha3

Ugh. Reading the hastag is seriously depressing. Makes me feel embarrassed to be a gamer more than anything, tbh:/
 
I think things are getting better, though. At least it seems that way to me on the outside. Xbox-Live isn't nearly as much of a cesspool as it used to be, and gaming forum nerds seem a lot more considerate and less awful than they were 5 years ago.
 
Female representation in games still isn't what it should be, but we're slowly getting there.
 

@allworkandlowpay

said:

@jozzy said:

@bloodsoul5 said:

@jozzy said:

@CaptStickybeard said:

Oh.

She has a point, just a shame it dominated those specific Giant Bomb shows. Also, I am not sure the reaction from the community would've been different if it was a man doing the exact same thing. Interesting though.

She doesnt have a point at all. drunk and annoying is terrible regardless of gender.

What she is implying, is that when man are drunk and obnoxious, you will see it as an incident and don't really change your long term perception of them. With a woman, she is regarded as "that drunk obnoxious bitch". That definitely happened on this site. Like I said, if a man had done the same, we might have felt the same way, but I am no so sure.


If anything, Leigh Alexander is actually trying to set a double standard. Most people have negative associations with people being publicly drunk and being assholes, she's just upset that she was one, and is trying to use the gender card as way of saying it's unfair.

All I want to add to this particular conversation:  I think people defending Alexander's behavior in that shitstorm are forgetting her absolutely fuckin' insane reaction to the GB community shitting all over her. That one IM (people claim) Ryan posted where he called her a psychopath seems very apt.

The harassment she got is inexcusable, of course, but lets not kid ourselves and pretend that Alexander isn't fucking crazy herself.
Posted by Ett

@EpicSteve:

Haha no not really but GB has a large following. And if they feel strongly about this they could set a example.

Posted by allworkandlowpay

@Daius said:

@martyarf said:

Jeff: "You take it back to those roots of you're really getting in someone's ass fighting them, just talking as much shit as you can."

Patrick: "You want them to feel bad. Fighting games are as much a psychological game as it is the actual game that is playing out."

[Note: What the fuck?]

...

Patrick: "When you step back and think 'did I mean that?', no."

Jeff: "But in context it's probably okay."

Patrick: "Right."

Yeah this is a huge part of the problem and kind of a double standard. Trivialisation of rape as a serious issue isn't an appropriate part of shit talking or frustration, just as using slurs isn't. It's not kosher trying to talk up how women aren't treated fairly in an industry while you use this sort of rhetoric that trivialises other aspects of sexism.

Is it still sexism when it's often applied to both ends? Back when we used to have arcades, it was common to smack talk the other person. Often, it was sexually derogatory in nature.

"Man, I gonna make you my bitch."

"Your ass is about to get raped."

"Suck my dick, man.! Yeah, suck it!"

etc.

Posted by theuselessgod

I have no idea how I'd address this. I try my damndest to not be sexist. My wife has a better paying job than me in a scientific position (usually reserved for men) and has no harassment and many female co-workers, so I don't see it in my life on a workplace standpoint.

That being said, I'm tired of seeing all the shit that goes down in both the industry and games themselves. I often think the means we go about trying to fix it (like twitter hashtags) aren't really going to have any impact, but putting our fingers in our ears and going "lalala!" because we are all boys/men and it doesn't directly effect us isn't the right answer either.

I guess if we just recognize it and shun it eventually it would fix itself. But we have to get everybody on that bandwagon, and there's the catch.

Posted by martyarf

@patrickklepek said:

@martyarf said:

@patrickklepek: You don't remember what you said on the podcast? You and Jeff went to painstaking lengths to explain the "culture" of the FGC, eager to place the rape threats in "context". You don't remember Brad saying something to the effect of "You guys are nuts, this guy is a fucking psycho"?

The "context" was how someone would say something stupid they wouldn't otherwise say in front of others, but if I gave the impression I was at all okay with his comments, that's my fault, and know I believed his statements were 100% wrong.

Jeff: "You take it back to those roots of you're really getting in someone's ass fighting them, just talking as much shit as you can."

Patrick: "You want them to feel bad. Fighting games are as much a psychological game as it is the actual game that is playing out."

...

Patrick: "When you step back and think 'did I mean that?', no."

Jeff: "But in context it's probably okay."

Patrick: "Right."

Posted by AlexW00d

@gogosox82 said:

@AlexW00d: I have no idea what you just wrote. How is Patrick being misogynist?

I think you need to learn how to read buddy.

Posted by ManMadeGod

I don't get that last point about Dead or Alive. So what? There is nothing wrong with having a game target the young male audience with bondage and boobs. The game is beyond over the top and is no worse than buying a sports illustrated swimsuit calendar.

A very tiny minority of men are going to enjoy reading 50 shades of grey: it's a sex themed novel aimed at women. Does that bother you Patrick? I would guess not. Yet DoA does? Why?

Posted by martyarf

@Arx724 said:

@martyarf said:

@Arx724: Truly a burden comparable to that of women.

Again, why should I care?

If you don't care about the marginalisation of half the world's population, then congrats on your sociopathic diagnosis.

Posted by Milkman

@Arx724 said:

@martyarf said:

@Arx724: Truly a burden comparable to that of women.

Again, why should I care?

Because they're human beings?

Posted by XeroxPunk

@fartGOD666: Hahahah, sorry, but your handle is working against you. I thought for sure you were joking until I read it and then swung the other way.

I also really wanted to post my verse from The Book of Gaming.

Posted by warley

This post has generated a malestrom of comments.

Posted by McGhee

Burden huh? Over the years I've had to make the choice when I'm at work to never be in the same room alone with a women unless I know her really well. Why? Because they can fucking say anything and be instantly believed.

Then you're fucked. I've seen it happen.

Posted by Foggen

Leigh Alexander has decided to use this opportunity to claim that the antipathy she earned by ruining multiple E3 Bombcasts with her screeching, drunken stupidity was indicative of sexism. Nope.

Posted by SpicyRichter

@jozzy said:

@SpicyRichter said:

It's funny this is such a big deal when women in the middle east aren't even allowed to show their faces outside the home. Maybe some of this energy should be put into fighting for their rights?

There are places where kids have to work 10 hours a day for a few bowls of rice, maybe some energy should be put into fighting for their rights? Oh wait no, there are places where people die because of hunger, all energy should be put into that. Do you see how dumb that argument is?

No, because you're absolutely right. We should be putting a lot more energy into feeding the hungry and fighting against sweatshops. I donate what I can, and avoid companies that have human rights violations. I also treat women as individuals. Do you do these things?

Posted by allworkandlowpay

@McGhee: /r/mensrights.

It is a serious issue that never is addressed in our society, yet it absolutely can and has ruined peoples lives.

Posted by ShadowKirby

Yo, to all of you who say "why don't they speak up in their work place instead of twitter", they do, and they get dismissed as just being "bitchy" or "humorless". THAT is the problem.

Posted by CharlesAlanRatliff

The Tecmo image has nothing to do with the issue at hand, so it's kind of weird for it to be at the end of the article. I feel like it takes away from the message you're trying to get across. 
 
Also, I beat (and liked) Mirror's Edge, and I had no idea Faith was considered " one of gaming's most memorable protagonists". I don't recall her being that memorable as a character. Her design certainly stands out, but that's about it for me. 
 
Good cause, though. It's an issue that needs to be fixed in a lot of industries, including video games. I just wish people would focus on the real issues at hand instead of bringing up boob physics in Dead or Alive to support their argument. (This last sentence isn't directed at Patrick or the article, but comments I have seen elsewhere on the subject.)