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Posted by drgrumbles

Who the fuck cares?

Posted by Missacre

@TrevorCCW said:

As gamers, we should be offended that this type of marketing is what elements of the industry think we respond to.

As men, we should be offended that expectations of us are so low that we are supposed to be titillated by a fraction of a woman and the aftermath of violence.

As human beings, we should be having these conversations about what these labels and expectations and depictions are saying about our culture.

As privileged Westerners, we need to be sensitive that it's worse elsewhere, but also of the fact that our own mothers and sisters and girlfriends and daughters and wives are still being marginalized.

Conclusion: fuck you little pricks, seriously. Klepek reached out to informed industry professionals who you've infantilized and dismissed without addressing their arguments. Also go read some books about this shit and see how quickly your opinion changes.

"As gamers, " Stopped reading right there.

Posted by BRNK

@TrevorCCW said:

As gamers, we should be offended that this type of marketing is what elements of the industry think we respond to.

As men, we should be offended that expectations of us are so low that we are supposed to be titillated by a fraction of a woman and the aftermath of violence.

As human beings, we should be having these conversations about what these labels and expectations and depictions are saying about our culture.

As privileged Westerners, we need to be sensitive that it's worse elsewhere, but also of the fact that our own mothers and sisters and girlfriends and daughters and wives are still being marginalized.

Conclusion: fuck you little pricks, seriously. Klepek reached out to informed industry professionals who you've infantilized and dismissed without addressing their arguments. Also go read some books about this shit and see how quickly your opinion changes.

Indeed.

Edited by Gordy

@TrevorCCW said:

As gamers, we should be offended that this type of marketing is what elements of the industry think we respond to.

As men, we should be offended that expectations of us are so low that we are supposed to be titillated by a fraction of a woman and the aftermath of violence.

As human beings, we should be having these conversations about what these labels and expectations and depictions are saying about our culture.

As privileged Westerners, we need to be sensitive that it's worse elsewhere, but also of the fact that our own mothers and sisters and girlfriends and daughters and wives are still being marginalized.

Conclusion: fuck you little pricks, seriously. Klepek reached out to informed industry professionals who you've infantilized and dismissed without addressing their arguments. Also go read some books about this shit and see how quickly your opinion changes.

This needs to be reposted again and again.

Posted by AkihikoSenpai

Do you not realise that this fabricated 'misogyny' breeds nothing but animosity? Giant Bomb is not your blog and you are the only thing holding me back from a premium membership. I love this site and this is not what I want it to turn into, this is merely a polite request.

Posted by JoshyLee

@Krullban said:

@bko said:

@ptys said:

Giant Bomb really need to hire a female editor so we can have less of these pandering articles. There are far worse things happening in advertising, my local dentist has a hot model as their clinic poster girl... I mean it's a dentist, she doesn't even work there!!!

Shhhhhhh. This community doesn't yet know that women are allowed to write and have opinions and hold jobs. Don't upset them!

Posts like this just piss me off. None of the posts here even suggest shit like this.

Fuck off.

Why? Just because it takes an issue and reduces it down to ridiculous extremes so that anyone with an opinion different than theirs looks like a woman hating misogynist? That's how lazy people win arguments.

Posted by FoolishChaos

For me the statue was less "ew blatant boobs" and more "what the FUCK its a horrifically mutilated corpse why would anyone in their right mind want this."

But I guess that's the state of things

Posted by ptys

@Krullban said:

@bko said:

@ptys said:

Giant Bomb really need to hire a female editor so we can have less of these pandering articles. There are far worse things happening in advertising, my local dentist has a hot model as their clinic poster girl... I mean it's a dentist, she doesn't even work there!!!

Shhhhhhh. This community doesn't yet know that women are allowed to write and have opinions and hold jobs. Don't upset them!

Posts like this just piss me off. None of the posts here even suggest shit like this.

Fuck off.

Haha, I thought it was quite funny, made me chuckle ; )

Posted by Krullban

@bko said:

@ptys said:

Giant Bomb really need to hire a female editor so we can have less of these pandering articles. There are far worse things happening in advertising, my local dentist has a hot model as their clinic poster girl... I mean it's a dentist, she doesn't even work there!!!

Shhhhhhh. This community doesn't yet know that women are allowed to write and have opinions and hold jobs. Don't upset them!

Posts like this just piss me off. None of the posts here even suggest shit like this.

Fuck off.

Posted by skooks

@TrevorCCW said:

As gamers, we should be offended that this type of marketing is what elements of the industry think we respond to.

As men, we should be offended that expectations of us are so low that we are supposed to be titillated by a fraction of a woman and the aftermath of violence.

As human beings, we should be having these conversations about what these labels and expectations and depictions are saying about our culture.

As privileged Westerners, we need to be sensitive that it's worse elsewhere, but also of the fact that our own mothers and sisters and girlfriends and daughters and wives are still being marginalized.

Conclusion: fuck you little pricks, seriously. Klepek reached out to informed industry professionals who you've infantilized and dismissed without addressing their arguments. Also go read some books about this shit and see how quickly your opinion changes.

/thread.

Posted by bko

@ptys said:

Giant Bomb really need to hire a female editor so we can have less of these pandering articles. There are far worse things happening in advertising, my local dentist has a hot model as their clinic poster girl... I mean it's a dentist, she doesn't even work there!!!

Shhhhhhh. This community doesn't yet know that women are allowed to write and have opinions and hold jobs. Don't upset them!

Posted by NMC2008

@Moe_DeLawn said:

One commenter motioned the view point of men which I think is poignant. Another has indicated their distaste for Patrick which is quite frankly ridiculous. i think we need to internalize that there are business people who say yes and great sales people who build a yes in front of marketing teams with terrible ideas. Bottom line on this issue is as follows:

Exec:"What if it causes feminist reaction?"

Marketing/Sales guy: "Then the internet will react and we will get free advertising"

Exec: "Oh. Then do it."

Marketing/Sales guy:"OK!"

-two months later-

Exec: "I just got a phone call from some website about this..."

Marketing/Sales Guy: "It worked!! Also, i saved your money in advertising fees."

Fixed for accuracy.

Posted by Moe_DeLawn

One commenter motioned the view point of men which I think is poignant. Another has indicated their distaste for Patrick which is quite frankly ridiculous. i think we need to internalize that there are business people who say yes and great sales people who build a yes in front of marketing teams with terrible ideas. Bottom line on this issue is as follows:

Exec:"What if it causes feminist reaction?"

Marketing/Sales guy: "Then the internet will react and we will get free advertising"

Exec: "Oh. Then do it."

Marketing/Sales guy:"OK!"

-two months later-

Exec: "I just got a phone call from some website about this..."

Marketing/Sales Guy: "It worked!! Also, i saved your money in advertising fees."

Exec: "wait... who is reactiong?"

Marketing/Sales Guy:"Women... mostly"

Exec:"Women don't play games!! I've seen the demographics..."

Marketing/Sales Guy: "Well.. women do play games."

Exec:"I get that... do we have bikini clad women and zombies in this game?"

Marketing/Sales Guy:"Yes."

Exec:"... why didn't they react to that?"

Posted by Gildermershina

Game marketed to young men with a comically busty limbless, headless female torso. That is sexist. I mean, it's not sexist in a meaningful way, it's just casually "oh, yeah, whatever, it's a dumb video game thing" kind of way. It's just an exaggerated version of the everyday kind of misogynistic shit that just seems to permeate video-game marketing. This should be offensive to everyone, because of how fucking dumb Deep Silver thinks its audience is. And I don't know, maybe they're right, and a significant portion of their audience is that dumb. But those of us who are not should just sit back and be okay with this dumb shit, we should tell these people "no, this is dumb, and it makes you look bad, and it makes all of us look bad." This is the reason I don't like to be labelled a "gamer", because of shit like this.

I don't think this is a huge issue, but it's an interesting one. At this point I'm really more interested in how video games relate to contemporary culture at large, than actually playing the latest Call of Duty or Halo or Gears or whatever else.

In some ways however, I wish this article had some male perspective, because I'm getting a little bit weary of the whole plethora of women-in-gaming issues being treated as "quick, go find some women and see what they think!" I think prominent industry women shouldn't have to be trotted out to speak on behalf of all women everywhere every time dumb shit like this happens. They should be part of the conversation, probably the greater part, but the issue affects the perception of all gamers.

Posted by CarlosTheDwarf

@JasonR86 said:

@ptys said:

Giant Bomb really need to hire a female editor...

Oh God I would love to see the forums after that. They would fucking lose their shit.

Not if she actually wrote about gaming instead of freshman-level feminism LiveJournal posts. I'd love to see a decent, mature female member on the team instead of Patrick's insufferable adolescent political soapboxing. I suspect most would agree with me.

Posted by DefaultProphet

@Brodehouse said:

@DefaultProphet said:

@Brodehouse said:

@JoeShadows said:

@Brodehouse: So, your argument is that people who don't have direct experience with something are just as qualified to speak on it as people who do have direct experience with it, because they can deduce everything that's relevant from pure logic? It's good to know that Aristotlean philosophy is alive and well- tell me, how many platonic solids make up the spheres of the heavens these days?

The 'direct experience' thing is an appeal to authority, rather than an examination of the actual argument made. If the argument made is ignorant, you should be able to point it out within the argument itself, rather than make an appeal to authority and ignore the argument altogether.

And your Greek reference is just a red herring.

This isn't high level stuff here, this is the core things you would learn in a basic course on logic. And I think anyone who marks off logic as being the principal factor of the objective quality of an argument has abandoned reason and rationality.

There is nothing worse in a discussion than an ex-high school debate team member.

And that's a personal attack.

.....Well played

Posted by TrevorCCW

As gamers, we should be offended that this type of marketing is what elements of the industry think we respond to.

As men, we should be offended that expectations of us are so low that we are supposed to be titillated by a fraction of a woman and the aftermath of violence.

As human beings, we should be having these conversations about what these labels and expectations and depictions are saying about our culture.

As privileged Westerners, we need to be sensitive that it's worse elsewhere, but also of the fact that our own mothers and sisters and girlfriends and daughters and wives are still being marginalized.

Conclusion: fuck you little pricks, seriously. Klepek reached out to informed industry professionals who you've infantilized and dismissed without addressing their arguments. Also go read some books about this shit and see how quickly your opinion changes.

Posted by Brodehouse

@DefaultProphet said:

@Brodehouse said:

@JoeShadows said:

@Brodehouse: So, your argument is that people who don't have direct experience with something are just as qualified to speak on it as people who do have direct experience with it, because they can deduce everything that's relevant from pure logic? It's good to know that Aristotlean philosophy is alive and well- tell me, how many platonic solids make up the spheres of the heavens these days?

The 'direct experience' thing is an appeal to authority, rather than an examination of the actual argument made. If the argument made is ignorant, you should be able to point it out within the argument itself, rather than make an appeal to authority and ignore the argument altogether.

And your Greek reference is just a red herring.

This isn't high level stuff here, this is the core things you would learn in a basic course on logic. And I think anyone who marks off logic as being the principal factor of the objective quality of an argument has abandoned reason and rationality.

There is nothing worse in a discussion than an ex-high school debate team member.

And that's a personal attack.

Posted by DefaultProphet

@Brodehouse said:

@JoeShadows said:

@Brodehouse: So, your argument is that people who don't have direct experience with something are just as qualified to speak on it as people who do have direct experience with it, because they can deduce everything that's relevant from pure logic? It's good to know that Aristotlean philosophy is alive and well- tell me, how many platonic solids make up the spheres of the heavens these days?

The 'direct experience' thing is an appeal to authority, rather than an examination of the actual argument made. If the argument made is ignorant, you should be able to point it out within the argument itself, rather than make an appeal to authority and ignore the argument altogether.

And your Greek reference is just a red herring.

This isn't high level stuff here, this is the core things you would learn in a basic course on logic. And I think anyone who marks off logic as being the principal factor of the objective quality of an argument has abandoned reason and rationality.

There is nothing worse in a discussion than an ex-high school debate team member.

Posted by StrikeALight

I just don't care enough. And I honestly don't know why there's so much moral outrage surrounding the marketing exploits of an infantile video game.

Posted by removesstains

Way to reinforce stereo types by continuing to give this bullshit attention patrick.

Posted by Fat_Magnum

Aww hell yeah check dat sexy torso. /sarcasmoff

What the fuck am I supposed to think of this kind of shit(the entire torso ordeal, not Klepek's write up) ? Seriously, I'm not sure what the desired outcome was. When I first read about it my thoughts were that the PR people involved with this were likely the technical definition of intellectually challenged. Nothing more to be said, really.

Posted by AlexanderSheen

@Sooty said:

The most annoying thing about the statue is all of this "outrage" is giving attention to the spin-off to a janky POS game.

Well, that and it's fucking dumb, but what seems even more dumb is giving it so much attention. The statue is still coming out by the looks of it, so you've not exactly accomplished anything.

and the worst thing is I am quite confident nothing would have been said if the statue didn't have tits. That's the most disturbing thing here.

Remember that trailer the first game got and the buzz that came with it? Those guys at the Deep Silver PR team are maybe unscrupulous but smart. Considering the attention around sexism in the video game industry, it would not surprise me if this was the intent all along. Just looking at how much people talk about that stupid statue and the title of this article with the name "Dead Island Riptide" in it, I think Deep Silver achieved what it wanted, advertisment.

Edited by Sooty

The most annoying thing about the statue is all of this "outrage" is giving attention to the spin-off to a janky POS game.

Well, that and it's fucking dumb, but what seems even more dumb is giving it so much attention. The statue is still coming out by the looks of it, so you've not exactly accomplished anything.

and the worst thing is I am quite confident nothing would have been said if the statue didn't have tits. That's the most disturbing thing here.

Posted by CastleD
@biggest_loser said:

@Missacre said:

@CastleD said:

If some of you guys think the fuss over this statue is overblown, you have to start realizing that in society the only time something really matters is when it affects women. It doesn't matter if its as trivial as a statue, or life and death issues. For example, males commit suicide at a rate of 4 to 1 over females. Guess what, nobody cares (and that's just one example of many).

Also, there's nothing brave and bold about Patrick Klepeck writing this article or his female friendly stance on these issues. Our entire media is feminist. Now, a journalist who criticizes aspects of feminism, even the slightest, that takes brass balls, because you risk ostracizing yourself or even losing your job. So you guys should stop congratulating Klepeck as if he's some type of trailblazer. This article is as mainstream and safe as it gets. I get the sense that he likes to "troll", whether it be his fellow male gamers who he looks down upon, or jukeboxes.

It's presented as if females are usually silenced, so we're giving them a voice finally. Meanwhile, our entire media is female-centric (like HuffPo for example), and issues affecting women are discussed all day, every day, not to mention our government and schools who care mostly about women. As a man, I'm more annoyed by commercials on television that treat men as total morons and women as SuperSassySmart who have to "tolerate" the male moron, than this statue, even though I personally don't like it and think it's grotesque.

Video games are one of last forms of media that doesn't cater and pander to women, and that won't do. That's one reason you see a backlash from guys when this subject comes up.

Final politically incorrect note: one reason the video game industry has been male dominated is because males have always been more interested in video games than females. I'm not exactly sure why that is, but from my observation its' mostly natural and not a social construct. It's not because men are evil misogynists, feel "threatened" by women, or any other phantom reasons. Misogyny exists of course, as does misandry, but it's overblown. Most men love women, want to be near women, enjoy working with them, and like doing things for women. I do.

Oh god, this. This so much. You sir, I want to shake your hand. Finally, someone who sees the light and isn't randomly spouting feminazi propaganda in a feeble attempt to get laid. I totally agree with you, video games are one of the last things that are male-dominated, and I'll admit, I like it that way.

The reason all these feminists are bitching about how "sexist" and "misogynistic" video games are, is because this is what's getting more attention these days. If something else was in the media day in and day out, they would leave us alone. They just move on from fad to fad, and video games happens to be the most recent one. Sadly, though, with everyone apparently on their side, it seems as if video games are going to start changing, and for what? They're gonna leave the games industry in disrepair because they wanted games catered specifically to them for one or two years. By then, no one's gonna want to play games anymore, because feminists were bitching every step of the way.

I just hope people who are truly passionate about games holds on and waits for this feminist cancer to pass us by, hopefully by then, they haven't done too much damage to the industry.


I think you're both way off the mark here. Video games are no longer male dominated. That mentality has to end. Its gone beyond the basement.

What's with the "basement" comments? Guys have always played games in their bedroom and living room too.

Games are now being made for everyone.

Games have always been made for everyone. However, on average guys have been more interested in gaming than girls, although obviously girls do play games too and always have.

It is something gamers have to come to terms with.

Nobody needs to come to terms with anything. It's the opposite, most guys love girls who plays games. 

 

That's just a dirty word blokes on the internet like to throw around like mud. (feminism)

Perhaps there are reasons for that. Everything associated with feminism isn't always positive and it deserves criticism and scrutiny.

A lot of female gamers wouldn't consider themselves feminists. A lot of them just want to invest in female characters that aren't scantily clad sex objects. 

Sounds good, I'd like more realistic female characters as well, like Elena from Uncharted for example. 

Not only is wanting gaming to be "male-dominated" weird its also extremely male chauvinistic and essentially sexist. I'm calling that out to you as a bloke. If you think this is going to go away, I think you need to get out of the basement and realise gaming is expanding. Its not just for the lads anymore.

I could be wrong but I think Missacre is a woman. And you aren't helping your cause by throwing "basement" in there again. You have a low opinion of gamers because they're male huh? Are you sexist or something? Gaming has never been "just for the lads". Women have had decades to get into game programming and design, but they, IN GENERAL, haven't been as interested as men. 

This article is about a tasteless and gross statue. It's one example among many of tasteless and gross things in gaming. The difference is that this one gets attention because it's about women. I don't even like this stupid statue. The double standard that violence against women is reprehensible and violence against men is entertainment, is becoming too much of a pink elephant in the room to ignore.

Posted by biggest_loser

@JoshyLee said:

@Hailinel said:

@JasonR86 said:

@ptys said:

Giant Bomb really need to hire a female editor...

Oh God I would love to see the forums after that. They would fucking lose their shit.

It would be one hell of a sight to see.

I don't think people would mind. The issue isn't that we hate women. (even though you would like it to be as it would make us seem like terrible people) The issue is that Patrick is exploiting the idea of feminism so that people will pay attention to him. If he reported the fucking news no one would mind. But Alex is doing that. Patrick is trying to get page view through sensationalist bullshit.

Exploiting the idea of feminism...how is he doing that? Has ever mentioned the ideology of feminism? No he just found the statue tasteless and didn't understand how it was allowed to pass. And how is this sensational at all? He just asked people within the industry for their perspective. It has nothing to do with feminism.

Posted by biggest_loser

@Binman88 said:

there was a time when women were portrayed as the dumb house wife in ads who had to crawl on their knees for men. Just remember that.

Crazy. The implication that things are being "evened up" makes it ok? You might want to clarify what you mean here. If it was bad then, it's bad now.

He's complaining that all ads now make men look stupid. I never said anything about it now being evened up and that its okay. I'm just pointing out that both genders have at different times been subjected to ridicule, meaning that it is futile to suggest that there is one specific gender being pushed. Th focus changes all the time.

Edited by crcruz3

@Judakel said:

@crcruz3 said:

@Judakel said:

@crcruz3 said:

@Judakel said:

@crcruz3 said:

@Judakel said:

@crcruz3 said:

You said: "While on the job, women either do as much work as men or are simply too unproductive to be viable employees." and you are ignoring the 3rd option, they are less productive than men and receiving less money for it. That's Block's whole argument.

Are you an economist yourself? In that case, which school of economics is your preferred one?

I did not ignore his argument. I explained why he was simply wrong. You even quoted the section where I explained why he was wrong. There is literally no incentive for an employer to continue paying someone (even if it is less money) for lesser work. His third option is a fiction and you've taken my dismissal of it as simply "ignoring it". When an employer hires someone, they factor in the most they are willing to pay someone for the desired work into their budget. They don't reign it in if the work is shoddy since they get nothing out of it. It would be better in the long run to simply hire someone else who won't do shoddy work. They would save more money that way. Not a single employer will look at an under-performing employee and say "we will keep him on, but pay him less". Nor do they hire someone on the expectation that they will "work less, but at least we can pay them less". The gap comes about well after someone has been hired, and it can simply not come about due to poor performance. Poor performers get fired. Block didn't even bother to prove his point. He just threw together a blatantly illogical explanation that fits with his Darwinian, free-market bullshit. I can see how, if you believe in the free market, you might be tempted to apply it to microeconomics in the way he has. Unfortunately, that nonsense is only passable in macroeconomics, and even there people have caught on.

It should be fairly obvious where I land as far as schools of economics are concerned.

I am an employer myself and the only thing that is obvious to me is that you are talking about a theoretical employer that doesn't exist. And again you are calling Block darwinian and bullshitter, ad hominem all over.

All human beings are different, equal work is nonsense. I have 250 employees and they are not equally productive. Even those performing the same tasks.

I'm going to play some games now, it's 9:46 pm here in Argentina. 'Night.

An ad hominem attack is when someone attacks the person instead of the argument. I can attack the person as much as I like, as long as I attack the argument too. This employer does exist, because he is a rational actor in the field of economics. Something most employers are. If your employees are not roughly equal in their productivity while working the same number of hours and having the same duties, then I am not sure why you have kept them on. You do realize that no one expects exactly the same amount of productivity, but as far as it is measurable, all individuals performing the same function should be equally productive in your Darwinian wonderland.

If they were equally productive I would pay them the same as in your: equal work, equal pay. As they are not, I pay them proportionally to the subjective, not easily measurable, productivity.

Calling Block names is foolish and coward as he is not here to defend himself. Calling me names is just rude and I don't appreciate it.

Then you are an unethical employer, for you cannot measure their "lesser productivity" in anything more than subjective ways, yet see it fit to nonetheless quantify this unmeasurable productivity in their paychecks. The very nature of what you're doing is so incredibly chilling, because the productivity of these employees may one day rise to meet that of the others, but since you have nothing but your own subjective opinion as to their levels of productivity, you may continue to pay them as if they are doing poor work.

Do you know, my dear entrepreneur, why most businesses try to avoid such methods? It isn't ethics, surely. Most businesses under a capitalist system are not concerned with ethics. Not, it is for the following reasons: One, it can be taxing to keep an eye on the productivity of every employee so that your own subjective, half-assed assessment can determine whether they will get a raise or not, and two, there is very little motivation for improvement were these comparatively poorly paid employees to find out that they are seen as poor workers deserving of fewer wages.

By the way, I love the fact that, as far as I can tell, you only looked at your business and decided to declare a more rational approach as only existing in theory. Someone should tell most mid-large size business owners that.

I am sorry you're such a diehard Austrian fanatic that you think it is foolish to mock Block. Believe me, Block has heard everything I've mentioned here many times over from other sources. He has not defended himself particularly well when confronted.

You assume a lot of things.

Nobody lives in a vacuum, I know a whole bunch of entrepreneurs and some of them are big and we talk about these kind of stuff a lot.

I don't determine productivity of all my employees by myself. I don't even know some of them, they work in different provinces (states for the US). Other people do that for me.

Measuring productivity is hard and you seem to ignore it. I'm both a Mechanical and an Electrical Engineer and I have studied Taylor, Fayol and others in subjects of productivity. In a factory is easy to measure the output of some people, however it's very hard to measure the productivity of a secretary, a lawyer and even an accountant.

Diehard Austrian fanatic? Unethical? Half-assed assessments?

As I said, you assume too much.

By the way, do you and your rich friends realize Walter Block also thinks the income disparity between blacks and whites is due to blacks being lazy? I wouldn't put it past what seems like a cadre of exploiting compadres, but I am just wondering.

When I said that we talk about these kind of stuff a lot I was referring to productivity, human resources and the like, not to talking about Walter Block. Most of my really rich friends don't even know him.

It's your right to see entrepreneurs as a cadre of exploiting compadres.

Posted by Binman88

@biggest_loser said:

@Missacre said:

@CastleD said:

If some of you guys think the fuss over this statue is overblown, you have to start realizing that in society the only time something really matters is when it affects women. It doesn't matter if its as trivial as a statue, or life and death issues. For example, males commit suicide at a rate of 4 to 1 over females. Guess what, nobody cares (and that's just one example of many).

Also, there's nothing brave and bold about Patrick Klepeck writing this article or his female friendly stance on these issues. Our entire media is feminist. Now, a journalist who criticizes aspects of feminism, even the slightest, that takes brass balls, because you risk ostracizing yourself or even losing your job. So you guys should stop congratulating Klepeck as if he's some type of trailblazer. This article is as mainstream and safe as it gets. I get the sense that he likes to "troll", whether it be his fellow male gamers who he looks down upon, or jukeboxes.

It's presented as if females are usually silenced, so we're giving them a voice finally. Meanwhile, our entire media is female-centric (like HuffPo for example), and issues affecting women are discussed all day, every day, not to mention our government and schools who care mostly about women. As a man, I'm more annoyed by commercials on television that treat men as total morons and women as SuperSassySmart who have to "tolerate" the male moron, than this statue, even though I personally don't like it and think it's grotesque.

Video games are one of last forms of media that doesn't cater and pander to women, and that won't do. That's one reason you see a backlash from guys when this subject comes up.

Final politically incorrect note: one reason the video game industry has been male dominated is because males have always been more interested in video games than females. I'm not exactly sure why that is, but from my observation its' mostly natural and not a social construct. It's not because men are evil misogynists, feel "threatened" by women, or any other phantom reasons. Misogyny exists of course, as does misandry, but it's overblown. Most men love women, want to be near women, enjoy working with them, and like doing things for women. I do.

Oh god, this. This so much. You sir, I want to shake your hand. Finally, someone who sees the light and isn't randomly spouting feminazi propaganda in a feeble attempt to get laid. I totally agree with you, video games are one of the last things that are male-dominated, and I'll admit, I like it that way.

The reason all these feminists are bitching about how "sexist" and "misogynistic" video games are, is because this is what's getting more attention these days. If something else was in the media day in and day out, they would leave us alone. They just move on from fad to fad, and video games happens to be the most recent one. Sadly, though, with everyone apparently on their side, it seems as if video games are going to start changing, and for what? They're gonna leave the games industry in disrepair because they wanted games catered specifically to them for one or two years. By then, no one's gonna want to play games anymore, because feminists were bitching every step of the way.

I just hope people who are truly passionate about games holds on and waits for this feminist cancer to pass us by, hopefully by then, they haven't done too much damage to the industry.

I think you're both way off the mark here. Video games are no longer male dominated. That mentality has to end. Its gone beyond the basement. Games are now being made for everyone. It is something gamers have to come to terms with. More and more women and girls are playing games. This has nothing to do with feminists and feminism. That's just a dirty word blokes on the internet like to throw around like mud. A lot of female gamers wouldn't consider themselves feminists. A lot of them just want to invest in female characters that aren't scantily clad sex objects. Not only is wanting gaming to be "male-dominated" weird its also extremely male chauvinistic and essentially sexist. I'm calling that out to you as a bloke. If you think this is going to go away, I think you need to get out of the basement and realise gaming is expanding. Its not just for the lads anymore.

As for you friend: there was a time when women were portrayed as the dumb house wife in ads who had to crawl on their knees for men. Just remember that. That whole thing about the media being entirely female orientated is bull considering the number of male talk show hosts and anchors. If men love women so much why does this bloke think gaming should be male orientated and that feminism is a cancer? I think thats a disgusting, juvenile attitude.

This is why a decent discussion can't be had on these forums - no one on either side of the fence seems capable of not lowering themselves to pettiness and straw-man attacks, no matter how good their intentions might be. The fact that all of these arguments are presented so confidently and earnestly only makes them the more absurd.

Just to pick one thing on either side to comment briefly on:

Finally, someone who sees the light and isn't randomly spouting feminazi propaganda in a feeble attempt to get laid. I totally agree with you, video games are one of the last things that are male-dominated, and I'll admit, I like it that way.

Crazy. I don't think I need to explain; it's self-evident.

there was a time when women were portrayed as the dumb house wife in ads who had to crawl on their knees for men. Just remember that.

Crazy. The implication that things are being "evened up" makes it ok? You might want to clarify what you mean here. If it was bad then, it's bad now.

Posted by zerostasis

@TDot said:

Like... all he did was ask women in the industry their opinion on the thing... If this was in a news paper people would read it and move on. But it's on a website, a gaming website at that, and suddenly there's close to 2,500 posts of complete irrationality and outrage. Do none of you just stop and think "hmm... maybe... just maybe, I don't need to lose my shit."

So much win on the last statement

Posted by zerostasis

So much hate from some of the comments... Sad...

Edited by biggest_loser

@Missacre said:

@CastleD said:

If some of you guys think the fuss over this statue is overblown, you have to start realizing that in society the only time something really matters is when it affects women. It doesn't matter if its as trivial as a statue, or life and death issues. For example, males commit suicide at a rate of 4 to 1 over females. Guess what, nobody cares (and that's just one example of many).

Also, there's nothing brave and bold about Patrick Klepeck writing this article or his female friendly stance on these issues. Our entire media is feminist. Now, a journalist who criticizes aspects of feminism, even the slightest, that takes brass balls, because you risk ostracizing yourself or even losing your job. So you guys should stop congratulating Klepeck as if he's some type of trailblazer. This article is as mainstream and safe as it gets. I get the sense that he likes to "troll", whether it be his fellow male gamers who he looks down upon, or jukeboxes.

It's presented as if females are usually silenced, so we're giving them a voice finally. Meanwhile, our entire media is female-centric (like HuffPo for example), and issues affecting women are discussed all day, every day, not to mention our government and schools who care mostly about women. As a man, I'm more annoyed by commercials on television that treat men as total morons and women as SuperSassySmart who have to "tolerate" the male moron, than this statue, even though I personally don't like it and think it's grotesque.

Video games are one of last forms of media that doesn't cater and pander to women, and that won't do. That's one reason you see a backlash from guys when this subject comes up.

Final politically incorrect note: one reason the video game industry has been male dominated is because males have always been more interested in video games than females. I'm not exactly sure why that is, but from my observation its' mostly natural and not a social construct. It's not because men are evil misogynists, feel "threatened" by women, or any other phantom reasons. Misogyny exists of course, as does misandry, but it's overblown. Most men love women, want to be near women, enjoy working with them, and like doing things for women. I do.

Oh god, this. This so much. You sir, I want to shake your hand. Finally, someone who sees the light and isn't randomly spouting feminazi propaganda in a feeble attempt to get laid. I totally agree with you, video games are one of the last things that are male-dominated, and I'll admit, I like it that way.

The reason all these feminists are bitching about how "sexist" and "misogynistic" video games are, is because this is what's getting more attention these days. If something else was in the media day in and day out, they would leave us alone. They just move on from fad to fad, and video games happens to be the most recent one. Sadly, though, with everyone apparently on their side, it seems as if video games are going to start changing, and for what? They're gonna leave the games industry in disrepair because they wanted games catered specifically to them for one or two years. By then, no one's gonna want to play games anymore, because feminists were bitching every step of the way.

I just hope people who are truly passionate about games holds on and waits for this feminist cancer to pass us by, hopefully by then, they haven't done too much damage to the industry.

I think you're both way off the mark here. Video games are no longer male dominated. That mentality has to end. Its gone beyond the basement. Games are now being made for everyone. It is something gamers have to come to terms with. More and more women and girls are playing games. This has nothing to do with feminists and feminism. That's just a dirty word blokes on the internet like to throw around like mud. A lot of female gamers wouldn't consider themselves feminists. A lot of them just want to invest in female characters that aren't scantily clad sex objects. Not only is wanting gaming to be "male-dominated" weird its also extremely male chauvinistic and essentially sexist. I'm calling that out to you as a bloke. If you think this is going to go away, I think you need to get out of the basement and realise gaming is expanding. Its not just for the lads anymore.

As for you friend: there was a time when women were portrayed as the dumb house wife in ads who had to crawl on their knees for men. Just remember that. That whole thing about the media being entirely female orientated is bull considering the number of male talk show hosts and anchors. How many female game reviewers are there? Do you have any examples of journalists losing their job for criticising feminism? That's still part of the media. If men love women so much why does this bloke think gaming should be male orientated and that feminism is a cancer? I think thats a disgusting, juvenile attitude.

Posted by Elfen

Yes the torso is appalling. Yes the fact that its a half naked female its offensive. It is no worse than being able to mutilate half naked female corpses in the game. That's just what the game is all about. They are just marketing a product to the demographic of future murderers.

Posted by Missacre

@CastleD said:

If some of you guys think the fuss over this statue is overblown, you have to start realizing that in society the only time something really matters is when it affects women. It doesn't matter if its as trivial as a statue, or life and death issues. For example, males commit suicide at a rate of 4 to 1 over females. Guess what, nobody cares (and that's just one example of many).

Also, there's nothing brave and bold about Patrick Klepeck writing this article or his female friendly stance on these issues. Our entire media is feminist. Now, a journalist who criticizes aspects of feminism, even the slightest, that takes brass balls, because you risk ostracizing yourself or even losing your job. So you guys should stop congratulating Klepeck as if he's some type of trailblazer. This article is as mainstream and safe as it gets. I get the sense that he likes to "troll", whether it be his fellow male gamers who he looks down upon, or jukeboxes.

It's presented as if females are usually silenced, so we're giving them a voice finally. Meanwhile, our entire media is female-centric (like HuffPo for example), and issues affecting women are discussed all day, every day, not to mention our government and schools who care mostly about women. As a man, I'm more annoyed by commercials on television that treat men as total morons and women as SuperSassySmart who have to "tolerate" the male moron, than this statue, even though I personally don't like it and think it's grotesque.

Video games are one of last forms of media that doesn't cater and pander to women, and that won't do. That's one reason you see a backlash from guys when this subject comes up.

Final politically incorrect note: one reason the video game industry has been male dominated is because males have always been more interested in video games than females. I'm not exactly sure why that is, but from my observation its' mostly natural and not a social construct. It's not because men are evil misogynists, feel "threatened" by women, or any other phantom reasons. Misogyny exists of course, as does misandry, but it's overblown. Most men love women, want to be near women, enjoy working with them, and like doing things for women. I do.

Oh god, this. This so much. You sir, I want to shake your hand. Finally, someone who sees the light and isn't randomly spouting feminazi propaganda in a feeble attempt to get laid. I totally agree with you, video games are one of the last things that are male-dominated, and I'll admit, I like it that way.

The reason all these feminists are bitching about how "sexist" and "misogynistic" video games are, is because this is what's getting more attention these days. If something else was in the media day in and day out, they would leave us alone. They just move on from fad to fad, and video games happens to be the most recent one. Sadly, though, with everyone apparently on their side, it seems as if video games are going to start changing, and for what? They're gonna leave the games industry in disrepair because they wanted games catered specifically to them for one or two years. By then, no one's gonna want to play games anymore, because feminists were bitching every step of the way.

I just hope people who are truly passionate about games holds on and waits for this feminist cancer to pass us by, hopefully by then, they haven't done too much damage to the industry.

Edited by CastleD
@TDot said:

@CastleD said:

@TDot said:

@CastleD said:

Most men love women, want to be near women, enjoy working with them, and like doing things for women. I do.

... you just don't want to hear their opinions on things.

I find women who are critical of aspects of feminism to be more interesting, most of the stuff said in the article is the same old same old we get from the mainstream media day in and day out. Boring.

I don't know what you think feminism is but thinking this statue or sort of horrendous and sends a bad message to them isn't really any sort of radical statement.

The statue, which I don't like either, doesn't exist in a vacuum, it's part of industry that makes murder simulators where the people being decapitated, mutilated, and bloodied are 90+% male. I wonder how many of these girls logged off after their post and gleefully took part in that. This also happened during the Duke Nukem controversy or any time something might even be mildly offensive to women. 

Something only matters when women are affected. I believe that's one reason you see a backlash on the net when it comes up.  Do you really believe everyone who dissents or disagrees is a "creepy neckbeard loser in a basement cave troll misogynist"? No, you don't.

Posted by TDot

@CastleD said:

@TDot said:

@CastleD said:

Most men love women, want to be near women, enjoy working with them, and like doing things for women. I do.

... you just don't want to hear their opinions on things.

I find women who are critical of aspects of feminism to be more interesting, most of the stuff said in the article is the same old same old we get from the mainstream media day in and day out. Boring.

I don't know what you think feminism is but thinking this statue or sort of horrendous and sends a bad message to them isn't really any sort of radical statement.

Posted by CastleD
@TDot said:

@CastleD said:

Most men love women, want to be near women, enjoy working with them, and like doing things for women. I do.

... you just don't want to hear their opinions on things.

I find women who are critical of aspects of feminism to be more interesting, most of the stuff said in the article is the same old same old we get from the mainstream media day in and day out. Boring.
Posted by TDot

@CastleD said:

Most men love women, want to be near women, enjoy working with them, and like doing things for women. I do.

... you just don't want to hear their opinions on things.

Posted by TDot

Like... all he did was ask women in the industry their opinion on the thing... If this was in a news paper people would read it and move on. But it's on a website, a gaming website at that, and suddenly there's close to 2,500 posts of complete irrationality and outrage. Do none of you just stop and think "hmm... maybe... just maybe, I don't need to lose my shit."

Posted by joshthebear

@Chrisbot84 said:

the second is from Adam Sessler and his crew at Rev3games http://youtu.be/7HU7tkHSmm8

Really dig this video, although it might just be that I'm a sucker for The Sess.

Posted by Levio

@TDot said:

Wow, this has been going for a while I wonder if it's gotten better... Oh still full of horrible people? Great. See ya.

People are horrible everywhere; it's only here that they openly reveal it. So really, this is the safest place you could be. "The closer you are to danger, the farther you are from harm" and all that.

Posted by dr_mantas

@JasonR86 said:

@ptys said:

Giant Bomb really need to hire a female editor...

Oh God I would love to see the forums after that. They would fucking lose their shit.

How so? I don't think anyone has anything against women in these forums. At least I hope not. Hating anyone, including men and women, is ridiculous. It's especially insane to hate an entire gender.

If people disagreed with, for example, some kind of feminist propaganda this hypothetical female editor said, then it wouldn't be any different than people disagreeing with Patrick.

Posted by TDot

Wow, this has been going for a while I wonder if it's gotten better... Oh still full of horrible people? Great. See ya.

Posted by CastleD

If some of you guys think the fuss over this statue is overblown, you have to start realizing that in society the only time something really matters is when it affects women. It doesn't matter if its as trivial as a statue, or life and death issues. For example, males commit suicide at a rate of 4 to 1 over females. Guess what, nobody cares (and that's just one example of many). 

Also, there's nothing brave and bold about Patrick Klepeck writing this article or his female friendly stance on these issues. Our entire media is feminist. Now, a journalist who criticizes aspects of  feminism, even the slightest, that takes brass balls, because you risk ostracizing yourself or even losing your job. So you guys should stop congratulating Klepeck as if he's some type of trailblazer. This article is as mainstream and safe as it gets. I get the sense that he likes to "troll", whether it be his fellow male gamers who he looks down upon, or jukeboxes.

It's presented as if females are usually silenced, so we're giving them a voice finally. Meanwhile, our entire media is female-centric (like HuffPo for example), and issues affecting women are discussed all day, every day, not to mention our government and schools who care mostly about women. As a man, I'm more annoyed by commercials on television that treat men as total morons and women as SuperSassySmart who have to "tolerate" the male moron, than this statue, even though I personally don't like it and think it's grotesque.

Video games are one of last forms of media that doesn't cater and pander to women, and that won't do. That's one reason you see a backlash from guys when this subject comes up. 

Final politically incorrect note: one reason the video game industry has been male dominated is because males have always been more interested in video games than females. I'm not exactly sure why that is, but from my observation its' mostly natural and not a social construct. It's not because men are evil misogynists, feel "threatened" by women, or any other phantom reasons. Misogyny exists of course, as does misandry, but it's overblown. Most men love women, want to be near women, enjoy working with them, and like doing things for women. I do.




Posted by Chrisbot84

@TheSouthernDandy: I love Jim too, but you're right the dude gets a lot of unjust hate.

Posted by JoshyLee

@Hailinel said:

@JasonR86 said:

@ptys said:

Giant Bomb really need to hire a female editor...

Oh God I would love to see the forums after that. They would fucking lose their shit.

It would be one hell of a sight to see.

I don't think people would mind. The issue isn't that we hate women. (even though you would like it to be as it would make us seem like terrible people) The issue is that Patrick is exploiting the idea of feminism so that people will pay attention to him. If he reported the fucking news no one would mind. But Alex is doing that. Patrick is trying to get page view through sensationalist bullshit.

Posted by Hailinel

@JasonR86 said:

@ptys said:

Giant Bomb really need to hire a female editor...

Oh God I would love to see the forums after that. They would fucking lose their shit.

It would be one hell of a sight to see.

Posted by JasonR86

@ptys said:

Giant Bomb really need to hire a female editor...

Oh God I would love to see the forums after that. They would fucking lose their shit.

Posted by TheSouthernDandy

@Chrisbot84 said:

Not about to dig through 120 pages of this thread to see if these have been posted yet, so apologies. But I thought I'd share these two videos on the subject. First is from the kind of controversial Jim Sterling http://bit.ly/WAy3uW and the second is from Adam Sessler and his crew at Rev3games http://youtu.be/7HU7tkHSmm8

It's funny for as much crap as Jim Sterling gets, he's pretty often bang on.

Edited by Milkman
@Chrisbot84 said:

Not about to dig through 120 pages of this thread to see if these have been posted yet, so apologies. But I thought I'd share these two videos on the subject. First is from the kind of controversial Jim Sterling http://bit.ly/WAy3uW and the second is from Adam Sessler and his crew at Rev3games http://youtu.be/7HU7tkHSmm8

Thanks for posting that. I really like the Rev3 video. I'd love to see steal that idea with just the whole crew sitting around, picking a topic and just shooting the shit about it.  
 
Which now that I think about it is kind of just the podcast but maybe just something a little more focused.