Patrick starting Dark Souls

I'll just leave this here... and Patrick, I have to disagree that this shouldn't be site content, I say go for it! Vinnie's finished with his LOLS run I think, so why not keep things going!

2014 is off to a good start so far! Got my fingers crossed for a Jeff Endurance Run of The Last of Us this year... hey, anything is possible right? ;)

Patrick posting about the Drake Sword on twitter made me :(

more souls love is fine with me

Praise the Scoops! I'm all for this being site content.

Yup, fucking lame.

Getting that sword is terrible advice. Drake Sword players usually don't learn the mechanics of the game and how to upgrade shit early on because that thing is so overpowered. And then they hit the brick wall later on, at a much more unfortunate time instead of during the early, easy parts. You're much better off upgrading normal weapons from the start and skip the damn Drake Sword.

Same with the master key. He seems to be under the impression that he will miss stuff without it so he chose it as a gift. The only real purpose of the master key is to fuck with the progression through the game and skip a bunch of content. So he will end up in areas he can't beat which will prompt him to look up guides and/or he will miss out on a lot of great content. Hell, even entering Blighttown from the back is missing out on great content in my opinion as the descent into Blighttown is one of the most essential Dark Souls experiences. Even Jeff Green made it to Blighttown the "normal" way. It was intense and awesome.

Seriously, these two common pieces of advice are terrible for beginners.

Patrick seems to be in a "just tell me how to get through the game as quickly and easily as possible" mindset that really makes me not want to watch his stream. The fun of playing Dark Souls is discovering it on your own. And the fun of watching others play Dark Souls is watching them discovering it on their own. Jeff Green probably still doesn't know the Drake Sword exists and it made his stream all the more awesome. He experimented with a bunch of much more interesting weapons, got a feel for the different weapon categories and so on. It's valuable knowledge that players who cling to the Drake Sword will not gain.

I used the drake sword and the master key my first run though and I thought it was fine. It was nice to have a little bit of a power advantage while I figured out how to play. By the time I didn't really need it anymore I already upgraded some stuff. And I would still tell everyone I know who is playing to get the master key just because every other item is so useless, so I am not seeing the big deal.

Every other item does not potentially hurt the experience. The master key does so (potentially).

There is absolutely no reason to pick the master key unless you're doing a speedrun or other progression experiments during subsequent playthroughs. You will open every single door that the master key opens without it, just at a better time.

@cptbedlam: I made the same "mistake" you're referring to with the Drake Sword, and of course I hit a wall somewhere around Sen's. It's not really a big deal, I just had to learn how to play a little later on. He'll figure it out.

I enjoyed watching Patrick play. While he's still learning he seems to be somewhat comfortable with the controls, perhaps due to his previous experience playing the game. He also moves about with confidence, is bold when facing enemies and most importantly doesn't panic when things get hairy. I'm looking forward to seeing him stream some later game stuff.

"praise the sun"

You're one of the few that actually did use the Drake Sword to help you learn how to play, then. Most new players that go Drake Sword just "lol I oneshot everything in the Burg and Parish" their way through the beginning enemies (you know, the ones that teach you the basics of the combat system). By the time they hit the wall where upgraded weapons are better than their Drake Sword, they've a) not been upgrading or experimenting with the other weapons, leaving them no alternative, and b) not learned how to deal with actually fighting enemies and learning patterns aside from "if I swing twice really quickly this dude will die before he kills me." They're going to be scrambling to the wiki to look up enemy guides and where the next 'overpowered weapon' is because the game suddenly got way harder than the last 10 hours had been. It's a route I have specifically warned against when the many friends I've turned onto Dark Souls have asked about the Drake Sword.

The problem with taking Master Key on your first playthrough is that you can sequence break pretty hard with it, leading a new player into situations that he's going to get crushed in not because he's new and he's supposed to overcome the difficult challenge, but because he's in an area that he shouldn't be in for another five hours. As long as you're vigilant and take that into consideration as you open locks (i.e. opened with Master Key as opposed to some other one) then you can probably figure out if you need to leave and come back later, but many players don't actually pay that much attention, especially at the beginning, and their opinion of the game can be soured because of it.

I like the Drake Sword...

Can't us Dark Souls fans get along instead of consistently telling each other how to play the game "right"?

Me neither. I used the Drake Sword on my first play and it was a massive help in making me more comfortable with the game. I switched to the uchigatana as soon as it outclassed the Drakesword and I feel like I learned to back stab, upgrade, and so on just fine. I also chose the master key, because why wouldn't you? Fetching keys is annoying in any game, and the thing only opens like what, 4 or 5 doors in the whole game? Both of those items made my experience so much better the first time. I'm not sure why people feel so compelled to try and dictate how other people play.

I used the Drake Sword early on, but I never had any trouble learning how to play or "hitting a wall" anywhere. I just kept in mind that I needed to pick another weapon I felt comfortable with and upgrade it along a certain path later on, and by the time I got to Anor Londo I switched over to a divine Falchion. Like MB said, it's not really that big of a deal, you'll just realize you need to upgrade a weapon at some point.

The Drake Sword is a little over powered but it's not the game breaker it's made out to be. All it does it help you ease in to the game a bit more instead of forcing you to play the same slow, tedious blocking game with the weakest enemies in the game.

And yeah, this should be site content. I don't understand the insistence on keeping good things off the site, going all the way back to the Fear Gauntlet. If it's made by the staff, it should be on the site so more people can see it. Dumb.

I'm going through my first play-through right now and I used the drake sword until I found a better weapon when I upgraded it. It was a great weapon to learn with. I think I picked the ring that gave you an extra boost of HP. I haven't found finding keys to be tedious, IMO it's all part of the gaming experience to find the keys and open the doors later on.

Especially in a game that seems hellbent on proving that there is no "right". Just whatever works for you.

@cptbedlam: Patrick is a grown man i think let him make his own decision on how to play. If he wants to use the drake sword or summon in dudes to help him let him do it.

I think Patrick should put up whatever he streams on the site. More content is good right? I know Dark Souls content is always a winner in my book.

It's always interesting to see new players face Dark Souls. I believe he's already past the point where his first playthrough ended. It's all new to him as he goes forward.

I'm not particularly concerned about the Drake Sword and Master Key. I had both the first time I played the game and I actually wandered into Blighttown and fought Quelaag before ever knowing Capra even existed. I stopped trying to kill her once I knew I had skipped a whole bunch of stuff and got back on the right path.

I believe I actually stuck with the Drake Sword until I reached Anor Londo. I had my pyromancy to back me up so it wasn't that big a deal.

The real mystery is when I made the switch to my Uchigatana because that's the only other weapon I used during my first game as I refused to use the Lightning Spear. I remember getting stuck in The Painted World for days. I didn't get out until I summoned a phantom that had an Uchigatana. I was so impressed by the weapon that I looked up how to get it. I must have left Anor Londo at that point to join the Forest Hunters because I'm 100% sure I hadn't fought O&S yet. I remember thinking, "I should have never entered that painting. Now I'll never complete Anor Londo."

EDIT: Oh Jesus, it's all coming back to me. I left Anor Londo and went on a journey to find my perfect weapon. I made a thread at gamefaqs and asked what weapon would be best for me if I wanted to attack very fast. I didn't get much of a response so I used every weapon in my inventory and tested out all the moves on the snake dudes near the church bonfire. I eventually decided on my Uchigatana and I was glad that my initial instincts were correct. I upgraded the thing as far as it would go and I eventually went to the Lightning path before fighting O&S.

@jimmyfenix: I'd love to watch him making his own decisions. Unfortunately it seems he let's his twitter pals decide how to play the game. And most of them give terrible advice.

Guys like Will Smith give the usual false advice like "get the Drake Sword," go farm souls there." And he hasn't even finished the game I think. I wonder why. My guess is he unknowingly ruined his own playing experience by following that same shit advice. When he hit the wall later on, it was too steep and he gave up.

That's the kind of shit that happens when beginners choose the master key. I really think it does make the game unnecessarily confusing for many new players.

Recent example: Jeff Green didn't need to turn to some Gamefaqs board to ask for weapon suggestions because he naturally experimented with various weapons early on due to lack of Drake Sword. In my opinion a much more enjoyable experience - both to play and to watch.

I stand by it: these two most popular pieces of Dark Souls advice are terrible for beginners. They are not game breaking or anything but they are more likely to drag the experience down instead of improving it for beginners.

I take umbrage with this statement and the whole mentality of "They're doing it wrong!!! GOD!!!" and the idea that they should just heavily research a most efficient route. You know what I and my friends loved about dark souls? it was that we learned from mistakes, went the wrong way because of the master key? well I'll either figure it out and retrace my steps with a bit more knowledge of the layout of a future area or I'll keep at it until I manage to use skill to get through my road block. The idea that having a key that means they may or may not switch up their path adds an interesting fold to their gameplay experience.

I've got friends who went the drake sword route and that's what kept them motoring early on in the game as they figured out what the game was about. There was no sudden wall that laughed at their drake sword and spat them out reeling as they cried to the sky "oh woe is me, if only the drake sword hadn't sapped my ability to notice the dodge and shield mechanics!" they accrued a stash of weapons that they experimented with whilst using the drake sword and from there found a weapon they favoured and then learned the upgrade system because they wanted the weapon they favoured the look or style of to compete with or beat the drake sword.

Basically I can't see a good argument for either item to detract from the experience, will the drake sword make the beginning easier? undoubtedly, but maybe that's what will keep the player interested early on rather than frustrated. I mean it's not a scathingly difficult game, the whole zeitgeist of it's sadistic difficulty is ridiculously overplayed and people should play it in a way they will enjoy instead of seeking some 'perfect experience' by following how someone else would play.

Watch as Patrick finishes Dark Souls before Vinny does. It's happening, just you watch.

Patrick parries right away. Things are looking up. I'm for this being site content, but I totally get not wanting to inundate the site with Dark Souls.

Dark Souls is cool and everything, but I'm all about dat Blair Witch, son!

The truth tellah droppin' truth bombs like nobody's business.

This whole "he's playing the game wrong!" sentiment is why Dark Souls fans are slowly becoming the worst part of the game.

My attempt to turn to gamefaqs for advice was pointless because I ended up testing every weapon in my inventory. I had a bunch of weapons because I bought up every unique piece of equipment/item I ran across and I was a good explorer. I tested all my weapons and knew what their full moveset (one hand, two hand, weak attack, strong attack, jumping attack, running attack, and the dodge/rolling attacks) and how it would be applied in tight or open areas and against single or multiple enemies. The fact that I waited until Anor Londo to switch weapons was extremely beneficial because I mastered the Drake Sword moveset and I had all the upgrade material to pump into my Uchigatana.

What Jeff Green is doing with his weapons selection is not helping him get better at combat. He hasn't explored the whole moveset his Claymore has to offer and he hasn't realized the benefit to switching between one hand and two hands in combat. Upgrading weapons randomly is useless unless you're willing to understand why you'd want to use any given weapon. Potential damage is never the reason. You want a moveset that you'll be comfortable with. That should be the main focus.

You can break the natural progression without using the master key. A player can get to Blighttown via New Londo -> Valley of Drakes -> Blighttown. You can go the Catacombs at the beginning of the game. You can accidentally jump into Lower Undeadburg.

The Drake sword hatred doesn't make sense to me either. That weapon becomes ineffective in Sen's/Anor Londo and the player will have to find an alternative weapon. It doesn't matter when you learn about upgrading weapons.

@cptbedlam Citing your Dark Souls credentials in the stream yesterday was hilarious.

Whilst I'm sure that someone was standing over Mr. Higinbotham screaming "you're playing it wrong!" as he tuned in the oscilloscope and it's followed around games ever since it does seem incredibly prevalent in Dark Souls fans.

I wonder what part / parts of the game / user interaction lead to the behaviour. It seems like when you offer more ways for a person to enjoy a game the more people become adamant that there is only one 'true' way to play and the multitude of options available should be disregarded in favour of the way they played.

I think the drake sword is fine to give people a little confidence boost early on. I got it, beat a boss or too with it, but ditched it for something else before going to the depths. It's not as though the sword makes you invincible and one shots bosses. You still need to be able to avoid attacks with it. I think it just allows you a little room for error as as the enemies get tougher. But bottom line is, if you can't "play" by the game's rules, that sword isn't going to magically help you out

@golguin: Jeff has definitely explored more weapons and their movesets than many Drake Sword users at that point. And even though he did not try out every single move (run attack, for example), he sure has gotten vastly better and more comfortable with the combat and movesets in general. And I'd say that being comfortable with a weapons moveset is actually his main focus. He did comment on how much he liked the range attacks of the Halberd and he will go back to the Zweihander at some point because he really likes the R1 attack.

What's important (next to him learning early on the importance of upgrading) is that he is open for trying out new weapons. Many Drake Sword players aren't. They cling to the thing until it becomes completely useless. Only then they start to learn what the early parts of the game are there for. Or they just give up. Seriously, I've read many stories of players giving up right at the point when their Drake Sword doesn't cut it anymore.

400 hours!!!111!one

1. Save for the catacombs, none of that is likely to happen though. Definitely not as easy as taking the "wrong" path at Firelink.

2. Sure it does. The hump is not nearly as huge in the Undead Burg as in Sen's or Anor Londo.

Yup. It's a terrible crutch that makes people not as good at the game. When it stops being good (which is pretty damn fast) it causes a massive difficulty spike for them which doesnt happen to other players.

When the game just came out I remember endless threads where people were guiding others on how to attain the Drake Sword early on. It was the "go to" strategy for almost everyone at a point when they haven't burnt 200 hours with the game or even played Demons Souls. Now some strange stigma has appeared surrounding various aspects of the game as people spent entirely too much time in it and it has long since stopped being a fun gaming experience. You summoned people to help with a boss fight? You're ruining it! You use pyromancy? You're ruining it! Havels set?!?!

My first time through Dark Souls I tried getting the Drake Sword and the dragon spazzed out, crashed into the bridge and died, denying me the sword but netting me some decent souls. I tried to get the lightening spear in Sens Fortress but the mimic chest killed me when it was one hit away from dying and I missed out on that too. I don't know if it made the game "better" for me. I was forced to upgrade my existing weapons earlier on - but the reason I play these games is to become insanely overpowered and destroy my enemies with a single hit. So maybe we all have different goals, it's just too bad some of us have "wrong" goals apparently.

Not really interested in watching him play this anyway.

I played through until Sens fortress with the Drake Sword first time around, it just gives you that little bit of confidence knowing that you can fall back on the sheer power of the sword whilst you learn everything else. When I helped my buddy get into the game, I didn't advise him to get it though, as he was liking the feel of the Zweihander already.

I don't consider pressing any given button as a way to explore the moveset of a weapon. You saw how he used the Lightning Spear right? Once he was told that you could attack and block at the same time and be safe from damage he tried taking on the snake dudes. What did he do? He stuck to his Claymore combo and completely bypassed the advantage given to him by the spear by using the strong attack. He ate their attack on almost every encounter because he kept using the strong attack. The eagle shield has enough stability to allow him to safely kill any snake dude without ever running out of stamina.

Jeff left the spear without truly understanding the advantage it has over every other weapon type. Jeff turtles up whenever he panics and proper use of the shield and spear combo would have made quick work of the snake dudes when he managed to aggro all of them near the top. It's a great weapon for his current play style.

No. The entire concept of the Dark Souls "community" is telling other people how to play the game "right". That being said the drake sword is fine as long as the player understands it is a temp weapon good for early game only and once you pass the two bells it will no longer be very useful to you. The biggest problem with giving advice to beginners is you gave advice to a beginner. If you REALLY want someone to learn and experience the game tell them about the gameplay, explain the stats, talk a bit about spells and weapon handling, then tell them to play it offline for a few hours. Saying go here do this, or you need to farm these upgrade mats to get these weapons, etc etc is no different than telling a guy how to get the drake sword or to take the master key.

The only way newbies will ever "learn" the game on their own is by playing it and avoiding all online advice other than pure basics.

@cptbedlam Sure some users gave up when the drake sword became useless. But it is there to avoid what happened in the original (and I still feel better) Demon's Souls. You know, where they gave up in the first level.

You all need to let him play how he wants. Dark Souls 2 is coming out soon and everyone will be giant fucking noobs all over again.

I (and many others who oppose the common drake sword/master key advice) am not trying to tell anyone how to play the game. Quite to the contrary: Get the Drake Sword/Take the Master Key has apparently become the way to play the game. That's what everyone is telling new players. What I'm doing is opposing the notion that these are essential items and that they improve the experience for newcomers. Because that notion is a fallacy. Again: I'm not telling anyone how to play the game. I say "stop listening to the supposedly 'great' advice and just play the game instead."

.....

Ha.

It's funny - I recently went back into DS after watching Vinny's LOL (I'd previously got stuck at Capra and quit in frustration), and later discovered the Jeff Green playthrough that started about the same time. Jeff quickly caught me up (we were fighting Gaping Dragon around the same time as each other) and since then we've been progressing roughly neck-and-neck, although I haven't watched the last couple of archived streams yet (the titles suggest he's stuck in Sen's?). Whilst I'm pretty sure I have a better grasp of the core mechanics of the combat, Jeff seems to be making pretty decent progress considering he's playing on a tiny screen and is trying to talk and be entertaining at the same time.

FWIW, I picked up the Drake's Sword for the Capra fight and chose the Master Key at the start. I haven't found either has ruined my game at all - it was always fairly obvious if I'd stumbled into an area I wasn't ready for, and just knowing that those places existed from early on added to the fabulous sense of scope that the game offers. As for the Drake Sword, it really accelerated my progress at a point where I was kind of getting a bit frustrated again with the game, and it's not as if there's some massive tutorial on upgrading that isn't offered to you if you are using it, so you end up figuring it out as you go along, just later on.

In my case, I killed the Iron Golem (on my second try, if you must know) and then did a bit of reading that suggested it might be worth trying the Catacombs, so I upgraded a Man-Serpent Greatsword to Divine so I could be like my hero Vinny, headed down there and now I have the second Rite of Kindling :-D .

And re: Jeff Green not getting help and figuring things out as he's going along - yes he does that as he's playing, but he does read/post in the thread on NeoGAF and is taking advice from guys on there about what he should do next.

From this thread I found out that since I used the Drake Sword I'm a bad person and a worse Dark Souls player :(

My self esteem was already in shambles....I didn't need this.

The funny thing is that if you stick with the Drake Sword to the very end of the game you'd become one of the best players.

You can beat the game without any armor using the broken sword if you have the time and patience for it so anything is possible and nothing is essential. The drake sword is just another weapon on a long list of weapons. Since it doesn't scale with stats it is best used at earlier levels when you get the most out of it. If not at the beginning, then when should someone use the drake sword? Not later on, because then it won't do enough damage. So in that case I guess you should just never use it - but then what's the point of it even being there in the first place? When the sword runs out of steam, people naturally start exploring new options - and when I say "start exploring" let's be realistic, they go to the Dark Souls wiki and check stats. I'm sure you're putting your hands up right now crying out how not everyone does that and how a lot of people just go into this game completely blind and experiment on their own. As I said let's be realistic. The Drake sword won't hinder his "growth" in any meaningful way, and there are plenty of ways to get completely lost and end up in the wrong area without the help of the master key. So while the sword may not be an essential item, it will in fact improve their experience because they won't get stuck earlier on and it's much less likely they will put the game down when they've advanced further in than if they'd get stuck on the first boss.

Also telling people how not to play the game, is essentially, telling them how to play the game. That is what I always oppose, this notion that has been slowly brewing among the DS community that some items cheapen the experience, the real Dark Souls experience, and one should never use them. God forbid anyone summon phantoms to help with Smough and Ornstein because then you're really cheating yourself out of the authentic experience, as summoning apparently should only be used for invasions.

I thought the early access to Blighttown was something you couldn't do WITHOUT the master key.

1. I see what you're trying to say. The difference is, I'm not out there telling everyone to not play the game with the MK and the DS. I only comment after seeing people giving that advice to newcomers and all I'm basically saying is "don't listen to the advice, it's wrong anyway." If no one recommended that stuff, I wouldn't say a word. I do speak up because I believe that advice is simply not very good.

2. I have zero problems with any of that. Summon people, or don't. I don't give a shit. What I take issue with is people telling newcomers to choose certain items that supposedly make the game easier when in reality they are prone to make it more confusing for them instead (not necessarily, but the chance is rather high).

The master key offers a shorter way into Blighttown but you can get there without it and without entering the Depths.

It's extremely unlikely that new players stumble into Blighttown that way though. "Beating" New Londo before ringing the second bell is really not something new players usually are able to accomplish.

You do not have to "beat" New Londo to enter the Valley of the Drakes. Killing Ingward and opening the switched door is sufficient. You can also enter the valley from Darkroot Basin before fighting the Gargoyles.