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#1 Posted by development (2369 posts) -

I bought into the hype and even named my current character "Adapta-Billy," but the effects of Adaptability are totally lost on me. I've looked it up online and people have no solid evidence for the usefulness of most aspects of ADP, as well as Agility. It seems the only thing people are really certain about is that it increases the speed of healing... but I'm going from 40 ADP to 6 ADP and I'm not finding any noticeable difference. I can still heal in PVP and boss battles just fine. Shield raising speed? I don't really block much, and I highly doubt the difference (if there is any) is worth wasting the stat points for. And it raises fast enough as-is, anyway.

So I respecced and used the points that had me at 40 ADP to take me to some pretty high Endurance. I have shit tons of stamina now. You know what actually makes a difference? Having an extra weapon swing and the stamina to roll out of range in PVP. Stop wasting your time on ADP, people. Get that Endurance. 1 point per level is quite enough when you're level 125+.

Am I missing the big thing about ADP? It seems like a slightly less worthless Resistance (from Dark Souls 1), assuming of course that the rumors about it actually end up being true.

#2 Posted by Yummylee (21751 posts) -

As someone who's third character is still stuck at about 4 adapt at level 30, yeah, the shroud of hype hast been erased!.. I don't doubt it increases certain animation speeds, but the effects indeed appear to be rather minimal.

#3 Posted by Sterling (2358 posts) -

But I'm a Wizard!

#4 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4825 posts) -

You're totally right. Agility absolutely does nothing. The boosts to various resistances do absolutely nothing, either. Come to think of it, why do we even have stats? They do nothing!

#5 Edited by RonGalaxy (3181 posts) -

ADP, when leveled up along side END, boosts your natural poise rating as well as what you mentioned, which is pretty good, though it doesn't boost it by much. Definitely not as good as it was hyped up to be, but I'd still keep it at 15 or so. Definitely makes a difference in estus drink speed, which is *shutters* clutch (I hate myself now)

@Oldirtybearon are you a dark souls nihilist?

Online
#6 Edited by development (2369 posts) -
#7 Posted by Humanity (9375 posts) -

I wanted it to do two things: make me raise my shield faster and make me chug estus quicker. It did one of those things so I guess the 20 ADP ain't all wasted. I do really, really hate the delay between attacking and raising the shield up even with small one handed weapons.

Also Shrine of Amana is a terrible place for melee only characters with no ranged weapons, but a wonderful Twinkling Titanite goldmine.

#8 Posted by gerrid (327 posts) -

I went from 20 down to 3 and the difference was negligible, but the extra 17 points in faith meant a whole bunch more damage, which I definitely did notice.

I figured an extra tenth of a second here and there is much less important than damage output with every swing you take

#9 Posted by development (2369 posts) -
#10 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4825 posts) -

@development: You're right. You didn't. I apologize for being an asshole.

I've been watching people say "ADP doesn't do shit" or "END doesn't do shit" or "ATT doesn't do shit" for so long on so many Dark Souls boards that it's gotten pretty annoying. What these stats do is pretty clear at this point. If you don't find it useful that's cool, but saying "what a crock of shit THIS stat is!" is becoming a bit of a meme all unto itself. I didn't see a fair assessment of someone's experience with a stat in their gameplay, all I saw was someone being an asshole by projecting their experience onto everyone else with a subtle implication of "haha stop being dumbasses by boosting this stat wat r u casul?"

It was unfair on my part and again, I apologize.

#11 Edited by development (2369 posts) -

@oldirtybearon: Your apology just put even more words in my mouth I didn't say.

#12 Posted by HaniBall (316 posts) -

there are a bunch of vids online showing the differences in speed. They are very subtle. It is also confirmed that there a few more iframes with extra ADP. So for a doge based character it is a good stat to have. Especially pve, since the tracking is just laserlike this time. The extra poise could be nice to have even for a shield wielder. But VIT will get you that faster.

#13 Posted by obcdexter (611 posts) -

Chugging flasks. That's the one thing were I really noticed a difference. Saved my ass countless times, too, but that's mostly because I knew I could pull off a double-drink here and there with my ADP at around 20. Not leveling this skill at all just made me more careful with other characters, so ... not really worth it after all. :/

#14 Posted by Karkarov (3133 posts) -

@haniball said:

there are a bunch of vids online showing the differences in speed. They are very subtle. It is also confirmed that there a few more iframes with extra ADP. So for a doge based character it is a good stat to have. Especially pve, since the tracking is just laserlike this time. The extra poise could be nice to have even for a shield wielder. But VIT will get you that faster.

There it is. I suspect most people ignoring adaptability or saying it is useless aren't playing melee spec characters. Either that or you are all gods of gaming because dodging without at least 15-20 adaptability is a massive pain in the ass and requires the timing to be so perfect it basically isn't worth even attempting unless you have perfected the timing on the given enemy. That said there comes a point where sacrificing Adaptability for other stats is dumb. My character has over 50 strength sure... but he only actually gets more damage now like every other level on it because past 40-50 the scaling for stats tanks. I am almost to the point I am going to go back and level dex because it at least gives me 2 hp a level instead of 1. So dropping adaptability to stack more strength for damage would definitely not help me at all because the damage return would be minimal and I would lose at least 50% effectiveness on my dodge and my flasks would take at least 10%-15% longer to use.

#15 Edited by Deathpooky (1407 posts) -

Estus chugging and shield raising speed saved me a ton of times. Some bosses give you time to heal, others are on your ass at all times. Some enemies you'll have no problem raising a shield, others have very quick counterattacks or attacks where you might have to react very quickly.

Just as you enjoyed having an extra swing, I often enjoyed an extra swing from the additional time I wouldn't have to worry about my shield going up. Also gives you more ability to swap between stamina-recovery mode to blocking mode, which again matters for some enemies that have very quick attacks and stamina is at a premium for blocking and attacking. Could be different for PVE than PVP, but I found the extra tenths a second made me better in battle than +5-10 damage or +15 stamina. I had rings for that stuff that made more of a difference than 15 levels. No ring increases your action speed.

I also felt better at dodging after raising ADP, though I admit that may just have been placebo effect or me just getting better at the game as it went on, instead of any direct affect from agility. If you can dodge fine without it and rely less on estus and shield blocking, then sure, it won't be useful. Also the poise, though if you're armored up enough, the bonus poise is negligible.

#16 Posted by Demoskinos (14873 posts) -

I don't know I feel ADP has enough beneficial effects to dump points into it up to at least 20.

#17 Posted by HaniBall (316 posts) -

@deathpooky: the length or speed of the roll aren't affected. However, recovery time and iframes are. It's subtle but the difference you feel isn't a placebo effect :) If you're expecting ninja flip brokenness then you'll be disapointed but it puts the melee character back in business. Although I must say after seeing 2 ruin sentinels hammer a tank turtle and doing absolutely no damage whatsoever nor stagger him, why am I doing this to me :)

#18 Posted by HistoryInRust (6321 posts) -

@oldirtybearon: Your apology just put even more words in my mouth I didn't say.

You also called me racist in your original post. That was the biggest jerk-move you could've made.

#19 Edited by Veektarius (4867 posts) -

I think you should be putting those points into charisma. With all the undead in the game, turning is kind of underrated.

#20 Posted by ADAMWD (593 posts) -

@humanity: yeah, that area would have been pure hell for my warrior dude if I didn't have the dragonrider bow

#21 Posted by Oldirtybearon (4825 posts) -

@historyinrust said:

@development said:

@oldirtybearon: Your apology just put even more words in my mouth I didn't say.

You also called me racist in your original post. That was the biggest jerk-move you could've made.

Eh? I don't think I called you a racist. Unless you mean my very first post on the site?

I'm confused.

#22 Edited by HistoryInRust (6321 posts) -

@historyinrust said:

@development said:

@oldirtybearon: Your apology just put even more words in my mouth I didn't say.

You also called me racist in your original post. That was the biggest jerk-move you could've made.

Eh? I don't think I called you a racist. Unless you mean my very first post on the site?

I'm confused.

I'm giving you both shit.

#23 Edited by Oldirtybearon (4825 posts) -

@historyinrust said:

@oldirtybearon said:

@historyinrust said:

@development said:

@oldirtybearon: Your apology just put even more words in my mouth I didn't say.

You also called me racist in your original post. That was the biggest jerk-move you could've made.

Eh? I don't think I called you a racist. Unless you mean my very first post on the site?

I'm confused.

I'm giving you both shit.

... why?

#24 Edited by TrafalgarLaw (1132 posts) -

Leveling up ADP and END at the same rate gives you natural poise, it's never a waste.

#25 Posted by Viking_Funeral (1800 posts) -

Remember 9-10 days ago when Brad mentioned that Adaptability wasn't as good as people thought on the Bombcast, and a thread popped up attacking Brad?

Good times.

#26 Edited by Hippie_Genocide (585 posts) -

@development: Perhaps your problem was that you went from all ADP to all END. Leveling them up together gets you that natural poise, which most certainly isn't overrated. The game throws so many levels at you, you don't really need to min/max the leveling game like you did in DS1.

#27 Posted by bombedyermom (239 posts) -

my ADP is 6, and I'm doing just fine, wearing the heaviest armor and shield I have(Mirror Knight set with Pursuer shield). At the shrine of Amajwhatever, and while those ranged mages are dicks, it's definitely manageable. dodging requires more precise timing than my other character that I dumped into ADP with, but being able to put those points into INT (to boost bonus damage on my fire hammer) is way more worthwhile than drinking a health potion a little faster. For me, anyway. But to each their own obviously.

#28 Edited by Dprotp (48 posts) -
#29 Edited by c_rakestraw (853 posts) -

It increases the speed at which you drink Estus, which, though small an increase it may be, has saved me countless times. Half a second can make all the difference under the right circumstances.

Still, good to know it's not critical. Should make it easier to create a proper mage build.

#30 Edited by mosespippy (4205 posts) -

Leveling up ADP and END at the same rate gives you natural poise, it's never a waste.

If my math is right it takes 20 levels to gain 10.5 poise. I could wear a ring for 10. I would rather put those 20 levels into VGR for 400 HP. Or put some of them into VIT and have the extra equip load result in heavier armour amounting to more than 10 poise and have the extra levels go into anything else. Though I don't necessarily care about my poise. It's the same reason I don't carry a shield. I'm not going to stand there and let things hit me. I'm going to dodge.

#31 Posted by TrafalgarLaw (1132 posts) -

@trafalgarlaw said:

Leveling up ADP and END at the same rate gives you natural poise, it's never a waste.

If my math is right it takes 20 levels to gain 10.5 poise.

You get 0.3 per adp+end upgrade, but it it caters towards your lowest stat of the two. If you have end at 20 but ADP at 10, you get 0.3 per END increase till you hit your highest stat.

#32 Edited by Kaos999 (56 posts) -

Its only useless if you play as a generic boring ass tank and shield guy. Maybe if you guys didn't get hit so much you wouldn't need to wear such ridiculous armor or maybe if you actually learned their movements you would see adp makes for a much easier time dodging the hit instead of just eating it.

It takes way more skill to play as an agile character than a tank. If you didn't need to carry the heaviest sword, wear the heaviest armor you wouldn't need to waste points on VIT for equipment load and VIG just so you can survive hits.

There is no correct way to play the souls games, but there is a generic way and many think everyone should play it that way.

Wrong.

#33 Posted by Sterling (2358 posts) -

@kaos999: Wouldn't it be more beneficial for a tank than a non tank though. A non tank doesn't need that extra few points because they are already fast.

#34 Edited by mosespippy (4205 posts) -

@trafalgarlaw: I was thinking it was 1.5 per pair (I haven't put points into either for a week), but .3 per pair is 5 times worse! What a terrible use of stat points.

#35 Posted by golguin (3940 posts) -

Remember 9-10 days ago when Brad mentioned that Adaptability wasn't as good as people thought on the Bombcast, and a thread popped up attacking Brad?

Good times.

I made that thread. My point stands about ADP and its beneficial effects. People that think the effects on dodging and recovery speed are negligible are fine to think what they like, but it's like night and day when it comes to a character that focuses on dodging. I imagine the people that think it's a waste are the same people that can't roll BS through spells. Yes, roll BS is still possible in this game and I punish spell casters with that in PVP.

#36 Edited by Fredchuckdave (5549 posts) -

ADP is fine, once they nerf the overpowered spells people will be more into it again. I suppose it's exponentially better the less familiar you are with the game; since that's when you'll actually need to Estus faster/have more I-frames.

#37 Edited by TrafalgarLaw (1132 posts) -

@trafalgarlaw: I was thinking it was 1.5 per pair (I haven't put points into either for a week), but .3 per pair is 5 times worse! What a terrible use of stat points.

I am agile but I dumped a lot of points in a tanky build, I'm approaching soul level 200 now. I'm an agile tank, a fast rolling smelter demon.

#38 Posted by development (2369 posts) -

@karkarov: Sorry, man, but I only play melee characters and the dodging is fine at 6 adaptability. I really didn't notice a difference if there is any. Could just be placebo making you think higher ADP affects dodging; we all know how much panicking can make us mess up dodges.

I'm actually wondering if "makes dodging easier" actually just means it takes less stamina. This is much easier to test of course, but I ran out of soul vessels. Is there a vid online of the stamina-usage comparisons?

Anyways, yeah I have no problems at all dodging enemies, bosses, or all the swings and lightning in the world from PVP (except that annoying lag glitch where the game forgets to render the opponent's lightning spear until it hits you).

#39 Edited by freakin9 (1130 posts) -

@kaos999 said:

Its only useless if you play as a generic boring ass tank and shield guy. Maybe if you guys didn't get hit so much you wouldn't need to wear such ridiculous armor or maybe if you actually learned their movements you would see adp makes for a much easier time dodging the hit instead of just eating it.

It takes way more skill to play as an agile character than a tank. If you didn't need to carry the heaviest sword, wear the heaviest armor you wouldn't need to waste points on VIT for equipment load and VIG just so you can survive hits.

There is no correct way to play the souls games, but there is a generic way and many think everyone should play it that way.

Wrong.

I've been dabbling a bit with a giant shield lately after being one rolly son of a bitch. It's a blast. Yes, it's easy to just bait the dumb AI and roll out of the way, but it's also fun to just stand there as their hits barely eat into your stamina.

#40 Posted by development (2369 posts) -

@golguin: Hah, you and Karkarov are saying the same things, but I'm here telling you I can dodge lightning and emit force all day. I do most of my dodging by rolling directly *at* the spell, whether it's lightning or Soul Spear. As long as I see it coming I dodge it no problem... with 6 ADP (deprived minimum).

Maybe I'm better than I thought, but it ain't that hard, and I honest-to-god can't tell a difference.

#41 Posted by Demoskinos (14873 posts) -

@development: Just because you can't tell doesn't mean there isn't an actual effect. There is absolutely a speedup in several animations via the agility stat. If you're doing just fine with 6 ADP that is fine and dandy but I've absolutely see a difference between 6 and 20 ADP. 20 being where the soft cap basically is.

#42 Posted by golguin (3940 posts) -

@golguin: Hah, you and Karkarov are saying the same things, but I'm here telling you I can dodge lightning and emit force all day. I do most of my dodging by rolling directly *at* the spell, whether it's lightning or Soul Spear. As long as I see it coming I dodge it no problem... with 6 ADP (deprived minimum).

Maybe I'm better than I thought, but it ain't that hard, and I honest-to-god can't tell a difference.

I noticed the difference IMMEDIATELY as I was fighting my way through the turtles in the first area. There is no denying it. I tried going down into the hallway that leads to the bonfire that goes nowhere and I couldn't attack and dodge the turtles without taking a fatal hit. I boosted by ADP stat 3 points at a time and was finally able to avoid their attacks without issues. Make sure you understand this correctly. I couldn't attack and then dodge roll away safely. The margin of error was so tiny that I was spending around 5 minutes fighting a single turtle. The knights in Heide's Tower of Flame were a similar situation.

I should also note that I was fighting them in the Company of Champions. If you haven't experience the AI aggression increase then you wouldn't notice how much faster they attack and how few opening they have while in that state. The bosses are the same way. All the enemy attacks feel so slow that it's like a different game. Smelter Demon is a joke when he tried to hit me as a phantom in another person's world. The Company of Champions version is super hyped to attack.

I'm coming from Dark Souls 1 with over 500 hours of PVP experience. I was all about iframes and speed, which is why the Uchi feels slow as hell now compared to how it was in Dark Souls 1. It's a bit like trying to parry with a grass crest shield vs the parry dagger in Dark Souls 1. It's only a few more additional frames, but it was very noticeable for something that depends on that. I was also able to parry WotG in Dark Souls 1. Most people don't even know that's possible.

You can say that you don't feel the difference because maybe you have never been in a situation that required that slight edge to stay alive, but to deny the difference and say it's not worth it is something that the person would need to decide for themselves based on their build and playstyle.

#43 Edited by gerrid (327 posts) -

Like I said I went from 20 to 3 adp and it didn't make the game appreciably different to play to me.

I noticed there was a difference but felt it was so negligible that it wasn't worth it. If your game is all about split second timing then of course it will make a difference, and it sounds like that's more important on covenant of champions. But for me it didn't add enough compared to other stats to make it worthwhile.

For reference I am dual welding caestus and using miracles, so still need to dodge most of the time.

#44 Posted by LiquidPrince (15962 posts) -

You guys are crazy... The estus animation and the shield raising animation are noticeably faster although I have it at 25 because that is 100 AGL. Also, more natural poise is great.

#45 Edited by Karkarov (3133 posts) -

@karkarov: Sorry, man, but I only play melee characters and the dodging is fine at 6 adaptability. I really didn't notice a difference if there is any. Could just be placebo making you think higher ADP affects dodging; we all know how much panicking can make us mess up dodges.

I'm actually wondering if "makes dodging easier" actually just means it takes less stamina. This is much easier to test of course, but I ran out of soul vessels. Is there a vid online of the stamina-usage comparisons?

Anyways, yeah I have no problems at all dodging enemies, bosses, or all the swings and lightning in the world from PVP (except that annoying lag glitch where the game forgets to render the opponent's lightning spear until it hits you).

No it means more iframes. I had little to no trouble dodging at 30 adaptability in end game. I didn't even bother trying when I only had 6 because if your dodge was anything less than perfect you got nailed. Maybe you have just perfected the "hits at the middle of the dodge or you get hit" timing. I am too used to the older games like Demon's where you wanted to dodge last possible moment.

#46 Edited by development (2369 posts) -

@karkarov: It's funny, I have no idea if I'm hitting it at the middle, beginning, or end of the start of the possible I-frames... it's all muscle memory, really. I just let my fingers to their thing.

#47 Posted by shinjin977 (761 posts) -

@development: 24 adp and the i-frames added to dodging will make this game so easy it is ridiculous. You know how hard enemies hit in NG+? I don't, because I barely get hit at 24 adp. Shield raise speed is a myth tho. ADP effects dodge roll I-frames, healing and resistances. Of cause, if you are playing caster or ranger, it actually does jack shit for you.

#48 Posted by Zevvion (1902 posts) -

Are the extra iframes confirmed now for the roll? I swear I can dodge literally everything at 20-25ADP whereas I still get hit with certain stuff at 4ADP. I went back to test it on a new character my second time through. It could just be a personal bias though. But if so, I have no idea what causes it. I'd like to know if I'm not crazy right now.

Also, I get hit waaaaaaaay less in PvP with high ADP, whereas I literally can't dodge anything in PvP at 4ADP. The lag is hard to compensate for because it's different each time.

#49 Posted by Karkarov (3133 posts) -
@zevvion said:

Are the extra iframes confirmed now for the roll? I swear I can dodge literally everything at 20-25ADP whereas I still get hit with certain stuff at 4ADP. I went back to test it on a new character my second time through. It could just be a personal bias though. But if so, I have no idea what causes it. I'd like to know if I'm not crazy right now.

Quoted from the strategy guide itself.

"Adaptability's primary effect though is to raise your Agility. Agility boosts the ease of evasion and other actions..." It goes on to say max adaptability will shave around a full half second off an estus use, which sounds like nothing on paper but is huge in game.

#50 Edited by Zevvion (1902 posts) -

@karkarov: That doesn't confirm anything though. 'Ease of rolling' is a broad description. It could mean the roll distance, it could mean roll time, it could mean how quickly you enter the iframes instead of lengthening them.

I want to know if you actually have more iframes with higher ADP as theorized.