It was kind of stupid that a lot of the time rolling into an attack was how to dodge it. I imagine non shield, non armoured characters would be using some sort of ranged attacks, whether it's magic or bows. They'll just need to make sure to keep their spacing and not get rushed.
@mosespippy: Whether it was silly or not, I can't see this do much other than reduce the amount of viable builds. You need to be able to negate attacks somehow, and if the roll has no i-frames I can't see how non-shield melee could be at all viable. Which sucks.
If you've played a game enough to naked-punch one of the final bosses to death by using invincibility frames as a way to dodge attacks, you've earned it. I've never gotten good enough at a game to abuse them in such a way, so when I see people do it, I'm very impressed. it's not like it requires no skill or timing or anything. I agree with @towersixteen, I could only see this hurting build variety.
It's not as if rolls were a guaranteed means of avoiding damage, you'd get hit at various points anyways if it was an AOE or you fucked up the timing even slightly. Bring it on, I say.
I am pretty sure that invincibility frames on the roll have only been reduced not all together removed. Remember alot of what they said on that stream was completely wrong but atleast they acknowledged it.
How is actually dodging an attack without i-frames unviable anyways? People are aware of that you can actually dodge away from attacks, right? You can dodge in any direction, not just directly into an attack with the blessing of i-frames. As a vivid i-frame user in Dark Souls, I realize it will be harder, but not viable? I dunno, just shooting some tips out to you guys that did not realize you can dodge attacks without using i-frames...
good change. now we'll have to actually dodge out of the way of attacks. It's not like no-shield builds won't be viable. Just rolling into every non-AoE attack and wailing won't be. Which is pretty great.
Maybe people will actually learn to parry too. It works pretty well with the right off-hand gear.
I'm pretty sure they were just reduced. They may have also been confused by the removal of the invincibility frames on backstab animations and riposte animations.
You can currently dodge every AOE attack with proper timing. Manus would be impossible to dodge without iframes (his arm sweep covers the entire area you're currently standing on) and Wrath of the Gods spam would be impossible to stop even if you kept your shield up.
EDIT: Just did a little search online and I see no mention of iframe removal from rolls except for this very thread. If that was true every PVP person that played the Beta would have mentioned it first.
How is actually dodging an attack without i-frames unviable anyways? People are aware of that you can actually dodge away from attacks, right? You can dodge in any direction, not just directly into an attack with the blessing of i-frames. As a vivid i-frame user in Dark Souls, I realize it will be harder, but not viable? I dunno, just shooting some tips out to you guys that did not realize you can dodge attacks without using i-frames...
I have no idea how i-frames work/when in the timing they occur, and I still manage to dodge plenty of things to avoid damage by, as you said, dodging in a way that gets me completely out of the way of the attack instead of just hoping for the timing to match up so I don't die.
I'm fine with this. Just like I'm fine with animations no longer making you invulnerable. Or at least not parry/backstab animations (hopefully others as well?). Games need to be more engaging, and expect more of players. Having to dodge in the correct direction is going to take a lot more mental work than just dodging at the right time, and that's a good thing in my book.
i-Frames also made any boss with AoE (fatty back in the tutorial zone comes to mind) a lot less interesting. Even I figured out that I could just roll through the AoEs if I timed it right and as a result a boss that relied heavily on such attacks became prettttttttty useless.
If nothing else, they should be reworked so that they don't work against AoE. Maybe resist things like knockback but not the actual damage, so there's sort of a benefit to dodging right into those attacks but you have to make the tradeoff against the damage you take from it.
How is actually dodging an attack without i-frames unviable anyways? People are aware of that you can actually dodge away from attacks, right? You can dodge in any direction, not just directly into an attack with the blessing of i-frames. As a vivid i-frame user in Dark Souls, I realize it will be harder, but not viable? I dunno, just shooting some tips out to you guys that did not realize you can dodge attacks without using i-frames...
I have no idea how i-frames work/when in the timing they occur, and I still manage to dodge plenty of things to avoid damage by, as you said, dodging in a way that gets me completely out of the way of the attack instead of just hoping for the timing to match up so I don't die.
I'm fine with this. Just like I'm fine with animations no longer making you invulnerable. Or at least not parry/backstab animations (hopefully others as well?). Games need to be more engaging, and expect more of players. Having to dodge in the correct direction is going to take a lot more mental work than just dodging at the right time, and that's a good thing in my book.
i-Frames also made any boss with AoE (fatty back in the tutorial zone comes to mind) a lot less interesting. Even I figured out that I could just roll through the AoEs if I timed it right and as a result a boss that relied heavily on such attacks became prettttttttty useless.
If nothing else, they should be reworked so that they don't work against AoE. Maybe resist things like knockback but not the actual damage, so there's sort of a benefit to dodging right into those attacks but you have to make the tradeoff against the damage you take from it.
I don't think you guys realize how many attacks in the game would be impossible to stop if rolls didn't have iframes. Most dodges are accomplished through iframes and not by rolling out of the range of an attack.
There are some I-Frames on the new roll, it wouldn't have a purpose otherwise. Dark Souls was definitely not a "dodge-first" type of game (Demon's Souls was before you got warding/dark silver shield) so it doesn't necessarily matter unless every boss is Kalameet. I'm all for every boss being Kalameet.
@golguin: Oh? Like what attacks? I can get by that some attacks would be really HARD, but impossible? Remember, my argument is not that it's the best thing and that i-frames are useless - rather I'm just trying to argue that less/no i-frames still makes the old builds viable (Although, a little different for most users).
good change. now we'll have to actually dodge out of the way of attacks. It's not like no-shield builds won't be viable. Just rolling into every non-AoE attack and wailing won't be. Which is pretty great.
Maybe people will actually learn to parry too. It works pretty well with the right off-hand gear.
Great change. Plug all the cheese holes.
Whoa whoa whoa. Cheese hole this is not. The timing on it is pretty precise and its a very risk/reward tactic. If you mis time you're gonna be fucked. I'll also say many many action games use i-frames in their dodges. This includes all of the big franchises like Bayonetta, DMC, God of War, Ninja Gaiden.
While it seems the official word on this is a little muddy, from what I've seen, it appears that the invincibility frames on dodges are reduced, rather than removed completely.
I'm more worried that you can now be attacked during backstabs. Even if the animation is half as long as is it is Dark 1 and Demons, I fear that's gonna make them largely useless, save for one on one fights.
I really cant wait to get stuck in, and stop worrying about details that will hopefully be proven moot in a months time.
@golguin: Oh? Like what attacks? I can get by that some attacks would be really HARD, but impossible? Remember, my argument is not that it's the best thing and that i-frames are useless - rather I'm just trying to argue that less/no i-frames still makes the old builds viable (Although, a little different for most users).
I think we should first define what it means to dodge an attack and move out of its range. Dodging an attack means the oncoming attack will connect unless you press the dodge button. Moving out of the range of an attack means that you can walk left, right, or back without raising your shield or dodging to avoid damage.
The best examples that come to mind are the Treant's vine whip attack, the Titanite Demon's horizontal slashes, and the Royal Sentinal's double horizontal slash combo. If you are within the attack's range you essentially need to raise your shield or dodge to respond to those attacks.
The invincibility frames seemed, to me, like a crutch that they leaned too heavily on so they didn't need to implement accurate collision detection. When you can often get hit even if an attack should have missed you by a meter or more, the only trustworthy method to avoid getting hit is to make yourself invincible. Just make it so that when things don't hit me I don't take damage and you can feel free to take away all of my invincibility frames. If I get hit, it should be because I didn't position myself correctly... not because the best way to dodge is to jump directly into the attack and I just missed an arbitrary time window by a frame or two.
i-frames are still in the game but reduced. The duration of the iframes will most likely be increased slightly with agility (or maybe the non-i-frame part of the roll will be reduced, either one of those).
Removing i-frames would make rolling utterly pointless all together.
they introduced this change to make PvE dodging still efficient but making the roll-BS (or any sort of roll-trolling when coupled to the infamous DWGR) harder (but I suspect still possible if you pump a lot of points in agility eventually). Ultimate goal is BALANCE. They keep the same formula proven to be efficient and tweak it to cancel abuses.
@golguin: Oh? Like what attacks? I can get by that some attacks would be really HARD, but impossible? Remember, my argument is not that it's the best thing and that i-frames are useless - rather I'm just trying to argue that less/no i-frames still makes the old builds viable (Although, a little different for most users).
While I can't think of any specific attacks (and I haven't really tested it), I'm pretty sure there are a good amount of attacks Dark Souls that has too much of a reach to be able to physically dodge away from. If there wasn't there wouldn't actually be any timing to dodging in the game, since by the time your invincibility frames were over you would be out of range. I know for certain that I've been clipped at the end of a dodge plenty of times even though I dodged away from the attack.
You could still play as a "dodger", but unless you played super careful you would probably keep ending up in situations where you were just screwed because of positioning.
@golguin: Oh? Like what attacks? I can get by that some attacks would be really HARD, but impossible? Remember, my argument is not that it's the best thing and that i-frames are useless - rather I'm just trying to argue that less/no i-frames still makes the old builds viable (Although, a little different for most users).
While I can't think of any specific attacks (and I haven't really tested it), I'm pretty sure there are a good amount of attacks Dark Souls that has too much of a reach to be able to physically dodge away from. If there wasn't there wouldn't actually be any timing to dodging in the game, since by the time your invincibility frames were over you would be out of range. I know for certain that I've been clipped at the end of a dodge plenty of times even though I dodged away from the attack.
You could still play as a "dodger", but unless you played super careful you would probably keep ending up in situations where you were just screwed because of positioning.
I'm going to add to this by saying that while theoretically you can dodge to avoid anything, there are just areas in the game that are designed in a way that dodging isn't going to work. Mostly cramped areas or places like Sen's where dodging is more likely to kill you. In these situations though, you kinda want to just not be in range in the first place, so it's not that you NEED i-frames to not take damage, they just let you be more aggressive.
We heard originally that i-frames are gone from that interview they did with the PR guy a week ago or so. I'm still sceptical that they're gone for good.
Well the thread hasn't really discussed it but the I-Frames on the roll in Dark Souls coupled with lag basically break PvP alongside backstabs, so maybe it wasn't intended to impact the PvE experience at all.
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