#1 Posted by Kjebka (67 posts) -

A lot of people have been expressing worry that invasions taking place while hollow will ruin the game for them. Fortunately there's some good news to be had that might allay those fears.

First of all a big thing to consider; if everyone online can be invaded at any time then invasions will be significantly less frequent. Previously you would usually be invaded almost immediately upon becoming human since all those invaders out there were being focused on the small fraction of players who were human at that moment. With that same number of invaders spread across the entire online population there will most likely be significantly more time between invasions. Another important change is that players with more sins will be moved to the front of the line to be invaded. Sins are gained mostly by invading and killing other players. This means that invasions will be focused toward players who choose to engage in PvP, while those less interested will be invaded less.

It's also worth mentioning that it looks like invasions will be much more fair and fun this time around. For many people the main experience with invasions was to be invaded in the undead burg or parish by irresistibly overpowered player who stayed low level but used powerful end-game equipment. Dark Souls 2 is looking to end this in multiple ways. First off players will be matched up not just by level but also by the total amount of souls they've earned. They've also revamped the way stats and equipment interact, like giving stat requirements to heavy armor. The changes they seem to have made to the lock on system and the dedicated servers should also go a long way toward putting an end to those mysterious teleporting backstabs that frustrated so many people.

I understand how a lot of people came to be put off by previous iterations of the system, but I really hope folks will keep an open mind and give it another shot once the game comes out.

#2 Posted by golguin (4470 posts) -

@kjebka said:

A lot of people have been expressing worry that invasions taking place while hollow will ruin the game for them. Fortunately there's some good news to be had that might allay those fears.

First of all a big thing to consider; if everyone online can be invaded at any time then invasions will be significantly less frequent. Previously you would usually be invaded almost immediately upon becoming human since all those invaders out there were being focused on the small fraction of players who were human at that moment. With that same number of invaders spread across the entire online population there will most likely be significantly more time between invasions. Another important change is that players with more sins will be moved to the front of the line to be invaded. Sins are gained mostly by invading and killing other players. This means that invasions will be focused toward players who choose to engage in PvP, while those less interested will be invaded less.

It's also worth mentioning that it looks like invasions will be much more fair and fun this time around. For many people the main experience with invasions was to be invaded in the undead burg or parish by irresistibly overpowered player who stayed low level but used powerful end-game equipment. Dark Souls 2 is looking to end this in multiple ways. First off players will be matched up not just by level but also by the total amount of souls they've earned. They've also revamped the way stats and equipment interact, like giving stat requirements to heavy armor. The changes they seem to have made to the lock on system and the dedicated servers should also go a long way toward putting an end to those mysterious teleporting backstabs that frustrated so many people.

I understand how a lot of people came to be put off by previous iterations of the system, but I really hope folks will keep an open mind and give it another shot once the game comes out.

The thing is that people who are against invasions are literally against their existence. They see a single invasion into their game as one too many. That mindset only has two solutions. The first is to pull the cord and play offline. The second is to keep their money and play something else.

#3 Posted by Fredchuckdave (6976 posts) -

It really comes down to the creativity of the playerbase. I really enjoy varied and diverse invasions in different environments, but fighting the same exact build 50 times is tiring (and shit like the fog ring certainly didn't help). As always it should be quite fun/fair for the first few weeks and then it will get pretty boring. It won't "ruin" the game for anyone. Also there's a fair argument that since hp reduction is in play the bosses won't hit quite as hard as they do in Dark Souls (which is 25-30% harder than bosses in Demon's Souls); so dying more isn't going to be that big of a deal. People just need to find the Cling Ring equivalent and stop bitching methinks.

#4 Posted by probablytuna (4137 posts) -

Since I basically suck at competitive multiplayer games and have a bad internet connection, invasions almost always end in the other guy's favour. It's not that I don't like the multiplayer/PVP aspect of the game, it's just that there isn't a chance I could win most of the time. Hopefully it will be better this time around, with the reasons you mentioned.

#5 Edited by Willza92 (286 posts) -

Some of my fav moments in Dark Souls was when I was invaded and managed to KILL THAT MOTHER FUCKER WHO WANTED TO FUCK WITH ME, I FUCKING STABBED THE SHIT OUT OF HIM. So yeah, I don't see it as too much of a big issue. Also, what is a few more deaths among thousands?

But man, was it good to be completely freaked out when I was invaded and turn the battle in my favour.

#6 Posted by Sterling (3163 posts) -

@golguin: I agree completely. I think its silly for people to complain about the mechanic when they don't have to it or buy the game if they don't like it.

@fredchuckdave: Sorry to hear you find the MP boring currently. I still enjoy it. One of the reasons I still play the game. On mulitple platforms.

#7 Edited by Fredchuckdave (6976 posts) -

@sterling: Basically the multiplayer is good as long as you don't force it; playing through the game normally while engaging in the multiplayer at random intervals makes it fun and exciting/interesting; playing it too much or exclusively is what leads to it being boring and also what makes people play very similar to each other. This experience is best had right near launch but you could still theoretically have it randomly. Leeroy is good for multiplayer though. Everyone should buy the game just to ensure more games like it are made; doesn't matter if they play it/hate it/love it.

#8 Edited by JZ (2343 posts) -

I intend to play offline, because I want to get up and go to the bathroom or get a snack while playing.

#9 Posted by ViciousBearMauling (1466 posts) -

@jz said:

I intend to play offline, because I want to get up and go to the bathroom or get a snack while playing.

Play on a toilet next to a mini fridge.

Done.

#10 Edited by pyrodactyl (2695 posts) -

@kjebka said:

It's also worth mentioning that it looks like invasions will be much more fair and fun this time around. For many people the main experience with invasions was to be invaded in the undead burg or parish by irresistibly overpowered player who stayed low level but used powerful end-game equipment. Dark Souls 2 is looking to end this in multiple ways. First off players will be matched up not just by level but also by the total amount of souls they've earned. They've also revamped the way stats and equipment interact, like giving stat requirements to heavy armor. The changes they seem to have made to the lock on system and the dedicated servers should also go a long way toward putting an end to those mysterious teleporting backstabs that frustrated so many people.

I'm looking foward to invasions but I'm not sure if they're balanced even with those changes. There is the fact that invaders can now heal with items and (I think?) still don't agro ennemies so you could imagine an easy tactic to invade would be to attack with a few ennemies on your side and let them occupy the invaded while you heal with an estus flask. You can also imagine some people, after going through the game a few times, will just absorb a minimum of souls by running passed most ennemies, still get the best PvP gear and get matched with easy, low level targets in starting areas.

#11 Posted by Tackchevy (284 posts) -

I'm replaying Dark Souls these last couple of days. Some guy with fantastic upgraded armor and very high VIT invaded me at the Anor Londo screw bridge. He constantly turned for backstab and practiced turning and parrying my attack. After a few minutes, he gave me a Titanite Slab, then constantly kicked at me until I finally rolled off the side. This is the kind of thing you lose when you turn off invasions. Thanks for the Slab, random guy. My Royal Helm is now a robust +10 because of you.

#12 Edited by rocketboot (143 posts) -

@pyrodactyl: Don't forget that invaders absorb souls off the hosts they kill. Low level PVP builds are probably not going to be very practical in this one, which is a bit unfortunate. If I want to make an sl40 character with intentions of fighting people with similar restrictions, I could still be matched up against an sl120 character. It will also make fight clubs harder to organize. Instead of the host of the fight club calling out for sl60 builds to come fight, hosts will have to ask for builds who have absorbed a certain amount of souls. I hope there's going to be a way to track that, maybe that's what this new soul vessel item is for?

#13 Posted by JZ (2343 posts) -
#14 Edited by pyrodactyl (2695 posts) -

@pyrodactyl: Don't forget that invaders absorb souls off the hosts they kill. Low level PVP builds are probably not going to be very practical in this one, which is a bit unfortunate. If I want to make an sl40 character with intentions of fighting people with similar restrictions, I could still be matched up against an sl120 character. It will also make fight clubs harder to organize. Instead of the host of the fight club calling out for sl60 builds to come fight, hosts will have to ask for builds who have absorbed a certain amount of souls. I hope there's going to be a way to track that, maybe that's what this new soul vessel item is for?

I think it still works by soul lvl with higher priority for people that have collected a similar amount of souls.

#15 Posted by Sterling (3163 posts) -

Does anyone know of the amount of souls collected thing will also affect co-op (summoning). Because that would suck. One of my favorite things to do is help 5-8 people on a boss before I take it out myself. And if you do that just once, that pretty much messes up your co-op opportunities for later game bosses.

#16 Posted by MannyMAR (581 posts) -

I think invasions in this game are going to be a lot more interesting considering that the invader will have to contend with the player invaded, any white phantoms that are jolly co-opping, and the boys in blue (phantom.)

#17 Posted by Yummylee (23201 posts) -

I was never much of a fan of the PVP in Dark Souls. I enjoyed it in Demon's Souls, but that was because it was all rather novel at the time. But by the release of Dark Souls, I found it only got in the way and I never enjoyed it whenever I would be invaded. The fact that they have the world on their side gives them such a ridiculous advantage; there was many an occurrence where I'd have a guy on the ropes, only for him to escape and take shelter with a group of enemies. This then usually always resulted in my death, followed by extreme bouts of anger on my part... That, and the fact that you'd have players who are extremely over-equipped for their level, and lag would sometimes be an issue, too.

I spent a little time in the Forest Hunters covenant at least, where PVP is then laid on more of a (somewhat) even ground, and I get the appeal for sure. It's when it would get in the way of everything else in the game besides PVP hotspots that it got to be a nuisance.

However, after all I've been hearing about the PVP in Dark Souls II, it sounds like they're making a lot of improvements to, ironically enough, make invasions more easier to manage. I'm at the very least excited to dig into it before you're left with nothing but the hardcore crowd that have already 'mastered' just about everything there is to do with the game.

#18 Edited by Fredchuckdave (6976 posts) -

@yummylee: As the host in Dark Souls you have rather large advantages on your side; the BP is effectively trading knowledge of the game for expedient healing and the potential of being 3v1'd. Though amusingly even the people that sit around waiting to get invaded usually have rather large flaws in their strategy and it just takes a little time to draw them out.

#19 Posted by redyoshi (536 posts) -

I'm going to give it an honest chance this time. I never experienced PVP because I had zero reason to unhollow besides kindling, since I didn't want any help with bosses. I'm of the mindset that an RPG is a single-player only experience. This time around, since I'm open to invasions no matter what means the developers want me to experience this multiplayer aspect of the game. I really respect From so I'll feel like I'm doing them a disservice if I don't at least try it out. I will just treat it like a fighting game or something. So, I'm a little excited and a little intimidated right now but hopefully because of the stat requirements on equipment it means there will a more level playing field at least early on, and that the only advantage that others may hold over me would be their experience.

I want to experience the game the same way everyone else will, though I will say that my priority has always been and will always be the story. If I find that invasions are too frequent for my liking and are impeding my story progress in a really annoying way, I will have no qualms about pulling the plug and completing my ~100 hour first playthrough completely offline. So, hopefully that stuff about a priority list will work out.

#20 Edited by Draugen (758 posts) -

The only thing that matters to me is whether they've fixed the netcode. ONE single instance of being backstabbed from the front, and that chord stays disconnected for the rest of the game.

#21 Posted by RVonE (4762 posts) -

Nope. I'm staying disconnected for sure. I can't remember a single instance in Dark Souls where I enjoyed my time with an invasion. The rest of the game, however, was fantastic. Just give me PVE-only Dark Souls and I'm good.

#22 Posted by Karkarov (3671 posts) -

@draugen said:

The only thing that matters to me is whether they've fixed the netcode. ONE single instance of being backstabbed from the front, and that chord stays disconnected for the rest of the game.

Let me save you some time and trouble. Don't play online because it will happen. It happened in Demon's Souls and they used servers then, it happens in Dark Souls even worse, no reason to believe it won't in Dark 2. As for invasions? I have fought in plenty. Hell in Demon's Souls I did tons to help promote the PVP community. But you know what? Invasions don't add any fun to the game for me organized events did, but we have no sign of how supported they will be yet or if they will be near impossible like most of Dark Souls. Also since all evidence indicates they have decided "balls hard" is why their game is good, which is a fallacy the internet seems hell bent on perpetuating for some reason, I have a feeling invasions are probably only going to make it worse.

So am I against invasions? Not exactly. But having no option to be online without them is just annoying, stupid, contradictory to both previous games (ps: you got it right save netcode with Demon's Souls you never should have changed it to begin with), and frankly will now only expose even more people to the wonderful world of Souls trolls. My prediction, if/when there is a Souls 3 they will drop the non stop invasions if online thing.

#23 Edited by thatdudeguy (158 posts) -

@viciousbearmauling said:

@jz said:

I intend to play offline, because I want to get up and go to the bathroom or get a snack while playing.

Play on a toilet next to a mini fridge.

Done.

Or just quit to the menu. The game is constantly auto-saving and enemies don't respawn when you load a save.

#24 Posted by JZ (2343 posts) -
#25 Posted by freakin9 (1186 posts) -

My favorite part of the first game(Demon's Souls) was the inventiveness of the multiplayer. Dark Souls squashed that and ruined it and basically encouraged people to never be human. The amount of wait it takes to find a guy to summon, or to get summoned is just way too long. Kills the fun of the game, for me. I've never gotten trying to solo these games, and if you have a guy fighting alongside you getting invaded becomes not that big a deal. I'm sure that's their goal, not to have people constantly have to fight invaders, but to encourage people to actually use the great multiplayer.

#26 Posted by Zevvion (2952 posts) -

Also, if you don't really like getting invaded much, be sure to join the Way of Blue covenant. When you do and someone invades your game, another player who is a Blue Sentinel will warp into your world to help you defeat the invader.

I really like helping people. I'll probably join Knights of Sun until I get a good sense of the new additions that I feel comfortable becoming a Blue Sentinel.

#27 Edited by stryker1121 (1764 posts) -

Thanks for the info drop, man.. I'm playing Dark Souls for the first time now, and have not had much experience with invasions. In fact the only time I got invaded by a real person, the dude bailed. Really, I'm into DkS for the campaign, don't much care about PvP, but I'm interested to fight someone of equal standing should they dare to come into my world. It's the OP trolling dipshits like the guy who kept invading Patrick in his stream that would make me play offline.

#28 Edited by Yummylee (23201 posts) -

@zevvion said:

Also, if you don't really like getting invaded much, be sure to join the Way of Blue covenant. When you do and someone invades your game, another player who is a Blue Sentinel will warp into your world to help you defeat the invader.

I really like helping people. I'll probably join Knights of Sun until I get a good sense of the new additions that I feel comfortable becoming a Blue Sentinel.

Same here. I recently decided to delve into the PVP side of things, specifically with the Darkmoon covenant, and it's actually a lotta fun. Plus because I'm only actually invading 'sinners', it thus allows me to invade without feeling like an asshole :P I've also been working my way up the dragon covenant now with another character as well, though that one is based around mutual invasions, where the player must instead invite you in once you've placed the marker. Though for some reason you can still get indicted if you win as an 'invader', which is frankly pretty bullshit considering they themselves gave you the key to get in...

The darkmoon covenant isn't quite the same as the Blue Sentinels of course, but it's probably the closest the game has to some sort of 'police force' in there. And because I too tend to find it more gratifying to help people rather than grief them, the Sentinels definitely looks like it could be right for me, especially when I'm yearning for some PVP. Though I too will probably feel more comfortable in giving the cooperative-focussed covenants a go first. Hell, knowing me I'll probably have like 3 characters going simultaneously anyway...

#29 Posted by Giantstalker (1875 posts) -

I've always looked at these as single player games, I'll be playing offline for sure

#30 Edited by NecroMongo (72 posts) -

@jz said:

@thatdudeguy: yeah cause that's not a pain the ass.

Yeah, such a pain in the ass; a few controller inputs. Wah wah wah complain complain complain.

#31 Edited by dudeglove (9182 posts) -

(and shit like the fog ring certainly didn't help).

I had SO MUCH FUN blending my character into the wall with the fog ring and the right armor when I was on the shortcut bridge to Lost Izalith once. Dude ran past me three times while we bullshitted one another with messages ("Boy chameleon sure is fun here" etc.). And then when he ran off I could shoot arrows at most of the dragon butts down below while he ran around like an asshole trying to find me. Trolling invaders is so much fun.

#32 Edited by Dooley (221 posts) -

This is going to come off really bad and I am going to seem like a douche but I am going to say it anyway. You guys are pussies. Man up and kill that bastard who just invaded you. They are forcing it on us this time around for a reason. Its fun.

#33 Edited by L33T_HAXOR (492 posts) -

Did people get invaded constantly before? I'm about fifteen hours in and have only been invaded once.

#34 Posted by AnjinM (130 posts) -

I spent very little of Dark Souls in human form because the PVP did not feel like it added much to my experience. I liked the co-op quite a bit, but PVP is very stressful for me. Especially when I feel like I'm the prey for someone just looking to ruin my game.

The fact that From Software is going out of their way to level the playing field means that I'm more eager to try PVP in Dark Souls II. As long as I'm getting a fair shot, I'm not going to unplug.

#35 Posted by golguin (4470 posts) -

Did people get invaded constantly before? I'm about fifteen hours in and have only been invaded once.

No. I played the game when it came out and I got invaded around 3 times during the course of 60 hours.

#36 Posted by EdgeKasey (190 posts) -

Not too concerned, my internet is shit, so half the invasions fail anyway. lulz

#37 Edited by Bane (496 posts) -

I've got zero interest in Dark Souls PvP. Every single instance, except for one where the person dropped a unique soul and left, has been nothing but a disruptive pain in my ass. Because of that I reverse hollow, kindle, and then walk my ass off a cliff or something.

The changes they've made sound okay on paper, and I'll certainly give it a shot, but I'll be coming into Dark Souls II with a heavy negative bias towards PvP.

#38 Posted by hermes (1734 posts) -

I don't like PvP, in pretty much anything. I find it frustrating, exploitable and it adds nothing to the experience. Its not like the game doesn't throw enough shit at you without a feature made specifically for being trolled.

All the comments here kind of prove the point most people don't care, or don't enjoy the PvP aspect of Dark Souls. The game would improve a lot by an options toggle to decide whether you want to take part in online interactions (outside of bloodstains) or not, but this is Dark Souls. I am sure usability was pretty low in their priority list.

#39 Edited by TopSteer (704 posts) -

I've never fought a human player in Dark Souls(I learned that lesson from Demon's Souls) and I plan to keep it that way in the sequel. I'll probably start by playing online and if I get invaded I'll just quit as soon as the message pops up. If the invasions become too frequent then I'll switch to offline.

#40 Posted by Brendan (8706 posts) -

I'll be playing it offline only. No interest in PvP. I like Dark Souls as a Metroid style solitary game.

#41 Edited by Carlos1408 (1574 posts) -

I really fell in love with the PvP in Dark Souls and am happy about the changes. Other than it sounding like it'll be more balanced and the connection will be better thanks to servers, I'm looking forward to getting invaded, co-op and invading others. Also even the trolling in Dark Souls I found pretty funny and sometimes did some of my own.

In a nutshell I couldn't be more excited about everything Dark Souls II. I finally pre-ordered it too, unfortunately I missed a chance to get the black armor edition though. I guess I'll have to find some other way of getting ahold of the soundtrack.