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#1 Posted by RazielCuts (2912 posts) -

What starts as a calling out of a dev for flagging youtube to take down one of his 'WTF is' videos under copyright claims develops into a discussion and war cry for Youtube to take greater responsibility for flagging procedures. I think it's pretty spot on. Can you imagine if this happened to GiantBomb? I would hope CBSi would be all over that ass.

We live in a weird time and going into the next generation where it seems every console (sorry Wii U) will be able to live stream gameplay out of the box I wonder if things will get better or worse for YouTube commentators. Let alone them having more competition in the space.

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#2 Posted by soulcake (247 posts) -

I just watch it he has a point, but it aint illegal for them to just take it off you tube its there game ?? so they own the rights off the watched material ??

#3 Edited by RazielCuts (2912 posts) -

@soulcake: They don't own his video with his opinion and critical analysis in it. It's blatantly obvious its not because of copyright it's because they don't like the fact that such a scathing opinion exists with such a high view count as it has.

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#4 Edited by EXTomar (4457 posts) -

This has been a serious and chronic problem. There are plenty and easily documented examples where something was created for Youtube using Fair Use that gets flagged where fighting and escalating complaints make it worse.

I love Youtube but this is one of those things that really needs to change. I really really really really wish they had another system in place where disputes on videos enter a cool down period and the parties are forced to talk to each other. I really really really really wish they got rid of the "three strike" policy because even well known, well trafficked channels, high reputation channels get hit by this. Also as much as these IP Holders and their "attack dog reputation managers" put strikes against the channels, they should have strikes against them when it turns out they made a mistake.

#5 Edited by Chaser324 (6265 posts) -

Yeah, this a pretty open and shut case of a scumbag developer just trying to cover his ass and dupe as many people as possible. The debate over gameplay videos isn't going to end any time soon, but this is clearly a situation where that isn't even the real issue.

Personally, I don't really think videos like TotalBiscuit's "WTF Is..." or GB Quick Looks are of an real consequence to IP holders, and they probably have a pretty sound case to make for it being legitimate Fair Use. The place where it gets a bit sketchy though are the "Let's Play" videos, and I kinda feel like a copyright holder would be completely in the clear to go after those. There are certainly arguments to be made about whether or not they should, but from a legal standpoint, most "Let's Play" videos probably don't have much of a leg to stand on.

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#6 Posted by JayEH (516 posts) -

Wow Wild Games Studios really went the extra mile to make sure their game wasn't critiqued. I wonder how many other developers go through the trouble to make fake metacritic accounts and such.

#7 Posted by bonbolapti (1596 posts) -

it would have been better for him to challenge it with youtube directly than to make this video response expecting validation from everyone else.

#8 Posted by AlexW00d (6168 posts) -

It's ok 'cause this video still exists.

#9 Edited by djames216 (353 posts) -

Plenty of other people have already said this about this incident but it looks like this will suffer from the Streisand Effect. Another Youtuber, Nerd3, has also put up a video about this situation. The developers Wild Games Studio are clearly in the wrong here. Youtube's Copyright Violation Reporting System is horrendously open to abuse. I remember that Angry Video Game Nerd's Youtube channel suddenly disappeared a while ago and all because some random idiot(s) that don't like him submitted false copyright infringement claims. The channel was eventually restored but these sorts of things simply shouldn't happen. Get your act together Youtube. You claim you want to improve your image and encourage better quality content. But if the creators are being unfairly treated like this they will be forced to move elsewhere.

#10 Posted by AMyggen (2464 posts) -

I'm not a fan of TB, but it's clear that the dev fucked up here.

#11 Posted by Pie (7035 posts) -

Man I really don't like that guy but yeah he obviously has a point but that guy man

#12 Edited by Draxyle (1780 posts) -

Reminds me of how tons of Persona 4 fan videos and entire channels got taken down by someone who wasn't even the copyright claimant. It's absolutely insane how easy it is to shut down someone's livelihood at a whim on Youtube.

#13 Posted by Pr1mus (3780 posts) -

Beyond the fact that the dev is in the wrong here and how youtube's copyright bullcrap is a terrible system and has been terrible for years, how a developer could think for a second doing this was a good idea against someone which such a large audience is baffling. Clearly a well thought out strategy to help your crappy game get a better image in the eyes of the consumers.

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#14 Posted by Carryboy (627 posts) -

Am I the only one who disagrees with this guy?

#15 Posted by djames216 (353 posts) -

it would have been better for him to challenge it with youtube directly than to make this video response expecting validation from everyone else.

I think TotalBiscuit mentioned somewhere (can't remember where) that he originally tried to deal with this quietly behind the scenes. Maybe that didn't work out so he decided to put this video up to not only expose Wild Games Studio's shady practice but also the flaws in Youtube's reporting system. Plus, putting this video up also serves his original intention. That of protecting the consumer from buying shitty games, so-to-speak.

#16 Posted by BD_Mr_Bubbles (1695 posts) -

@soulcake: They don't own his video with his opinion and critical analysis in it. It's blatantly obvious its not because of copyright it's because they don't like the fact that such a scathing opinion exists with such a high view count as it has.

This

#17 Edited by Chaser324 (6265 posts) -

@jayeh said:

Wow Wild Games Studios really went the extra mile to make sure their game wasn't critiqued. I wonder how many other developers go through the trouble to make fake metacritic accounts and such.

Technically, the FTC doesn't allow that sort of "astroturfing", but I'm sure a lot of the smaller scumbag companies like the one in question here do it quite a bit. This issue comes up pretty frequently in the iOS store with companies or individuals trying to inflate their review scores to dupe people into buying garbage apps.

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#18 Posted by ViciousBearMauling (866 posts) -

@carryboy: Disagrees with TotalBiscuit? On what? The fact that this is censorship?

Because if that's what you disagree with, I would like to know why. This feels really blatant. TotalBiscuit's WTF series is critique, and that is fair use. It also feels gross considering that his video was the only to be taken down.

#19 Edited by RazielCuts (2912 posts) -

@bonbolapti said:

it would have been better for him to challenge it with youtube directly than to make this video response expecting validation from everyone else.

I think TotalBiscuit mentioned somewhere (can't remember where) that he originally tried to deal with this quietly behind the scenes. Maybe that didn't work out so he decided to put this video up to not only expose Wild Games Studio's shady practice but also the flaws in Youtube's reporting system. Plus, putting this video up also serves his original intention. That of protecting the consumer from buying shitty games, so-to-speak.

Yeah redditers noticed the video missing and starting asking questions and then TB responded, he says he was going to wait until monday for the devs to get back to him before he went public with it - http://www.reddit.com/r/Cynicalbrit/comments/1otlnh/wtf_is_day_one_garrys_incident_the_video_is_no/

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#20 Edited by EXTomar (4457 posts) -

This is part of the problem with Youtube's system. A big problem with YT's system is that when a dispute arises, it is sent back to the original claimant to basically ask "Did you mean to make this claim?" If one can't see the "conflict of interest" in this then I don't know what to say. Almost none of them say "Oops, my bad" but instead kick it back saying "Yes I am sure they infringed".

I understand that it is necessary to have automation in the system but it should be geared to protect both kinds of content creators. From Youtube's perspective the system should be designed to not trust either the IP Holder or the Channel Operator since they both have monetary reasons to lie.

#22 Posted by Akyho (1585 posts) -

Yeah, this a pretty open and shut case of a scumbag developer just trying to cover his ass and dupe as many people as possible. The debate over gameplay videos isn't going to end any time soon, but this is clearly a situation where that isn't even the real issue.

Personally, I don't really think videos like TotalBiscuit's "WTF Is..." or GB Quick Looks are of an real consequence to IP holders, and they probably have a pretty sound case to make for it being legitimate Fair Use. The place where it gets a bit sketchy though are the "Let's Play" videos, and I kinda feel like a copyright holder would be completely in the clear to go after those. There are certainly arguments to be made about whether or not they should, but from a legal standpoint, most "Let's Play" videos probably don't have much of a leg to stand on.

GB quick looks, Video reviews on official game website and such things on Youtube under CURRENT law it is legal. Under current law Lets plays and Endurance runs are most certainly the grey area. With a more up to date law we can concrete the safety of Video reviews and the likes and more solidify the legal position of what is not just the norm on youtube (lets plays) but what more gaming websites are doing. Are sitting people down who love video games and playing the latest and a past greatest games.

GB being one of the first (if not the first) to do so many other publications are doing it to vary from the usual regurgitate a press release/news and wait for press conferences E.G Square Enix show, E3, TGS.

Rev3games are doing their sit down and play, Gamespot with Danny O Dware are doing more digging into discussing games with video footage that is not reveiw per se. Youtube network giant Polaris (of which TB is part of) is doing this now, they are trying to act like Gamespot, Giant Bomb, PCgamer, IGN but with youtubers.

Yet they face a larger hurdle while using the sale rules but being punished for it. Either GB gets punished for Unpro fridays,QLs,ERs,TNT or people like TB are not punished, we can't have this double standard.

#23 Edited by ILikePopCans (745 posts) -
#24 Edited by Humanity (8731 posts) -

Nothing new really. Even Jeff recently remarked on Tumblr how a certain studio asked them to pull a QuickLook and in order to not sour the relationship Jeff decided to not fight it and took it down. If the law is as it is, there is not much to be done about it. If a developer can legally ask for this to be done and YouTube will always side with them, well what will you do? I suppose move away from YouTube as your main source of revenue. YouTube is easy money though because unlike GB or GameSpot you don't have to pay for the bandwidth, or the servers, or a number of other fees. So in a way it's a tradeoff.

As much as I hate YouTube "celebs" and the whole YouTube machine that spawned reaction videos or how a guy like NigaHiga makes a ton of money from barely edited under 10 minute clips - I do think QuickLook copy cat videos should be protected under better rights than they are now.

#25 Posted by beepmachine (618 posts) -

I think one of the biggest problems with stuff like this is that there is almost no way to contact youtube. If a video gets flagged the onus always seems to be on the uploader to prove their innocence, and they're at the mercy of youtube's bizarre flagging system.

#26 Posted by Scampbell (486 posts) -

I kinda really want a Quick Look of this.

#27 Posted by Flacracker (1582 posts) -

@carryboy said:

Am I the only one who disagrees with this guy?

So you would be ok with Giant Bomb videos getting taken down?

#28 Posted by Video_Game_King (35852 posts) -

@carryboy said:

Am I the only one who disagrees with this guy?

So you would be ok with Giant Bomb videos getting taken down?

I think (hope) he was talking about the guy's opinion of the game.

#29 Posted by Landmine (525 posts) -

@carryboy said:

Am I the only one who disagrees with this guy?

Yes.

#30 Edited by Levio (1782 posts) -

I'm not surprised YT errs on the side of the accuser, since YT is a constant breeding ground for pirated videos and whatnot and theft is almost the norm, but I am surprised that absolutely no work goes into policing this stuff at any level.

#31 Edited by Humanity (8731 posts) -

@carryboy said:

Am I the only one who disagrees with this guy?

So you would be ok with Giant Bomb videos getting taken down?

The difference is GiantBomb doesn't make the bulk of it's revenue (to my knowledge from what Jeff says here and there) from the YouTube videos and they wouldn't be able to (as easily) get the QuickLooks taken down from the main site.

#32 Posted by spraynardtatum (2529 posts) -

preach

#33 Posted by RazielCuts (2912 posts) -

The one thing I will say is as a community people need to vote with their views and likes on YouTube. We should call out gameplay commentators who just rage on a game for the sake of views without any substance to back them up. I'll freely admit I've been prone to seek out overly negative and rage reviews myself, when Aliens: Colonial Marines hit I ate up every little bit of the drama, but if we want in depth, critical content backed up by facts on YouTube we shouldn't support 'lol rage' videos with our views. I'm not saying TB has done this but we all know the 'Angry' people of the YouTube world.

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#34 Edited by Fattony12000 (6970 posts) -

I would just like everyone, now and again, to remember that the World Wide Web was given away to all of humankind, for free, in perpetuity.

That was pretty cool.

#35 Edited by subyman (587 posts) -

Was it the dev or the publisher? I expect this kind of thing from PR departments, but from a developer is kind of sad.

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#36 Edited by leinad44 (503 posts) -
#37 Edited by Chaser324 (6265 posts) -

@subyman said:

Was it the dev or the publisher? I expect this kind of thing from PR departments, but from a developer is kind of sad.

It's self-published by the developer. This game went through Steam Greenlight (...yet another sign that Steam Greenlight is a busted system).

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#38 Posted by RazielCuts (2912 posts) -

@subyman said:

Was it the dev or the publisher? I expect this kind of thing from PR departments, but from a developer is kind of sad.

It's self-published by the developer. This game went through Steam Greenlight (...yet another sign that Steam Greenlight is a busted system).

That 'Win a Steam key if you vote for us on Greenlight' is bananas. Surely that's against the submissions process, literally rigging the vote.

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#39 Posted by ThunderSlash (1514 posts) -

@leinad44 said:

Any idea which quick look they took down?

It might be The Lost and Damned. I think there was a Quick Look of that, that got taken down.

#40 Posted by TheRealMoot (335 posts) -

If the developers start taking down more video's of there game and throwing up youtube bans and stuff trying to block out any negativity directed at there game, then we know what they are up too. Bad sh*t. They're trying to make there game look better by taking down all negative reviews and impressions.

Didn't we figure out this was a bad idea a while back? I swear there was some metacritic or steam scandal where developers were promoting there games with biased reviews from employee's and taking down youtube reviews and first impressions videos to trick people into buying games that were either broken or blatantly terrible. This happened before right?

I'm with TotalBiscuit on this one. They took a shot at his lifestyle, his job, the thing that puts food on his table and tried to shut it down because he put up a negative first impressions video of there game. Which he had permission from them to do! The Developer's look like scumbags from my perspective. Fingers crossed they get slapped by someone for this crap. (Maybe steam will drop there game?)

#41 Posted by tourgen (4427 posts) -

hey, the DMCA is a bad law rigged by the corporations that wrote it. No surprise. Maybe if everyone is docile enough, minds their manners, and maybe licks a few boots we can have a video game pubic domain and common culture. In about 150 years.

#42 Posted by Bam_Boozilled (150 posts) -

@alexw00d: That video brought me great laughter, and now I know just how bad the game is. I wonder why the devs didn't sweep down and take that video out too.

#43 Posted by Monkeyman04 (998 posts) -

TB is in the right on this one. The devs are just mad that he didn't like it and it would have been the first video to popup on the searches for that game.

#44 Edited by bunkerbuster05 (454 posts) -

Biscuit is totally right. This is disgusting, really. A guy with a crappy game was butthurt that a major youtuber gave him a bad review.

This kind of reminds me of a certain Gamespot editor giving a game a bad review and getting fired for it...

#45 Edited by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

Can we get a mirror to his video?

#46 Posted by Ares42 (2560 posts) -

Not gonna watch the video (since it's TB) but if it's about what I think it's about isn't one of the BIG differences between a site like GB and most YT channels that they actually do ask for permission. I mean we've heard them talk about how certain companies only allow clips of certain lengths etc several times.

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#47 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

@ares42 said:

Not gonna watch the video (since it's TB) but if it's about what I think it's about isn't one of the BIG differences between a site like GB and most YT channels that they actually do ask for permission. I mean we've heard them talk about how certain companies only allow clips of certain lengths etc several times.

Nope. 100% incorrect. Dev was 100% in the wrong.TB was GIVEN the code and told he could do what he want with it.

http://kotaku.com/studio-accused-of-blocking-youtube-vid-over-criticism-1448796126

THey have backed off. Hopefully TB still pursues for legal action.

#48 Edited by bunkerbuster05 (454 posts) -

@ares42 said:

Not gonna watch the video (since it's TB) but if it's about what I think it's about isn't one of the BIG differences between a site like GB and most YT channels that they actually do ask for permission. I mean we've heard them talk about how certain companies only allow clips of certain lengths etc several times.

You have no idea what he even goes over. You're just being ignorant. If you watch the video, instead of just posting you didn't for the sake of who made it, you would realized the dev is 150% WRONG.

I've never watched this guy either. That doesn't excuse the fact he was wronged.

I found the video on daily motion, if anyone wants to watch how incredible the game is!

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x15fmac_wtf-is-day-one-garry-s-incident_videogames

#49 Posted by Ares42 (2560 posts) -

@the_laughing_man: I didn't say he was wrong, I was just pointing out that if something like this were to happen to GB they would have the proper paperwork and legal team to back them up. While most YT guys just gets screwed over.

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#50 Posted by The_Laughing_Man (13629 posts) -

@ares42 said:

@the_laughing_man: I didn't say he was wrong, I was just pointing out that if something like this were to happen to GB they would have the proper paperwork and legal team to back them up. While most YT guys just gets screwed over.

Thats the point he makes in his video. GO watch it. TB also has a legal team.