#1 Posted by SaturdayNightSpecials (2235 posts) -

Psychopaths

Sociopath

Apart from the fact that the distinction between psychopathy and sociopathy is heavily debated, the difference just isn't meaningful in a video game context. A single article can cover both and explain the difference.

I'd rename the resulting page Psychopathy, for clarity.

#2 Posted by Hunter5024 (5170 posts) -

I think both of those pages are pretty well done, and distinguish themselves from one another.

#3 Edited by Jay_Ray (1006 posts) -

If you want to combine them then use the actual psychology name for this disorder as used in the DSM: IV; anti-social personality disorder.

Edit: After reading each page, while the definitions are not 100% accurate they at least make a definitive difference that is needed.

#4 Edited by SaturdayNightSpecials (2235 posts) -
@hunter5024 said:

I think both of those pages are pretty well done, and distinguish themselves from one another.

I didn't say they weren't well-done or didn't distinguish themselves. I just think that a hard split between the two concepts is more confusing than useful on GB.

In video games, there are very few cases where someone is specifically described as a sociopath as opposed to a psychopath. In fact, many of the characters tied to the Sociopath page are less "sociopaths" and more just dicks (eg, Ganondorf, Duke Nukem, Axel) who happen to show some signs of ASPD, ones that are ingrained in villain/anti-hero archetypes anyway.

#5 Posted by Hailinel (22704 posts) -

@hunter5024 said:

I think both of those pages are pretty well done, and distinguish themselves from one another.

I didn't say they weren't well-done or didn't distinguish themselves. I just think that a hard split between the two concepts is more confusing than useful on GB.

In video games, there are very few cases where someone is specifically described as a sociopath as opposed to a psychopath. In fact, many of the characters tied to the Sociopath page are less "sociopaths" and more just dicks (eg, Ganondorf, Duke Nukem, Axel) who happen to show some signs of ASPD, ones that are ingrained in villain/anti-hero archetypes anyway.

Actually, as far as Axel and the rest of the Nobodies in Kingdom Hearts II is concerned, they pretty much are sociopathic. They aren't psychopathic, but they lack true emotion.

#6 Posted by Marino (4101 posts) -

Seems fine to me to have both.

Staff
#7 Posted by SaturdayNightSpecials (2235 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@saturdaynightspecials said:
@hunter5024 said:

I think both of those pages are pretty well done, and distinguish themselves from one another.

I didn't say they weren't well-done or didn't distinguish themselves. I just think that a hard split between the two concepts is more confusing than useful on GB.

In video games, there are very few cases where someone is specifically described as a sociopath as opposed to a psychopath. In fact, many of the characters tied to the Sociopath page are less "sociopaths" and more just dicks (eg, Ganondorf, Duke Nukem, Axel) who happen to show some signs of ASPD, ones that are ingrained in villain/anti-hero archetypes anyway.

Actually, as far as Axel and the rest of the Nobodies in Kingdom Hearts II is concerned, they pretty much are sociopathic. They aren't psychopathic, but they lack true emotion.

That's a fantastical condition, though, not a medical one. It's inaccurate and a little offensive to conflate that with sociopathy.

#8 Edited by SaturdayNightSpecials (2235 posts) -

@marino said:

Seems fine to me to have both.

I would just like to hear an explanation of why it's fine. And why, in contrast, there's a catch-all LGBT page instead of separate pages for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transsexual (and any number of other terms that fall in that category)

#9 Posted by Hailinel (22704 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@saturdaynightspecials said:
@hunter5024 said:

I think both of those pages are pretty well done, and distinguish themselves from one another.

I didn't say they weren't well-done or didn't distinguish themselves. I just think that a hard split between the two concepts is more confusing than useful on GB.

In video games, there are very few cases where someone is specifically described as a sociopath as opposed to a psychopath. In fact, many of the characters tied to the Sociopath page are less "sociopaths" and more just dicks (eg, Ganondorf, Duke Nukem, Axel) who happen to show some signs of ASPD, ones that are ingrained in villain/anti-hero archetypes anyway.

Actually, as far as Axel and the rest of the Nobodies in Kingdom Hearts II is concerned, they pretty much are sociopathic. They aren't psychopathic, but they lack true emotion.

That's a fantastical condition, though, not a medical one. It's inaccurate and a little offensive to conflate that with sociopathy.

Except that their behavior is a fantastic form of sociopathy. Just like there are stories that involve fantastically-induced psychopathy. And you're going to have to explain to me how in the world it's offensive if I'm going to take that comment seriously.

@marino said:

Seems fine to me to have both.

I would just like to hear an explanation of why it's fine. And why, in contrast, there's a catch-all LGBT page instead of separate pages for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transsexual (and any number of other terms that fall in that category)

LGBT is a common catch-all for term for individuals that aren't heterosexual and is widely used for that purpose. It seems odd to compare it to the relationship of psychopathy and sociopathy.

#10 Edited by JoeyRavn (4886 posts) -

@saturdaynightspecials said:

@marino said:

Seems fine to me to have both.

I would just like to hear an explanation of why it's fine. And why, in contrast, there's a catch-all LGBT page instead of separate pages for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transsexual (and any number of other terms that fall in that category)

That's not an apt analogy. "LGBT" is a term that includes several different sexual orientations. What you are proposing is that one illness ("psychopathy") contains another illness ("sociopathy"), as if the term "gay" included also "transgender", which obviously doesn't. If you were advocating for a "mental illness" page which included both "psychopathy" and "sociopathy", then it would be an OK analogy, though such term is not too suitable for a gaming wiki. Also, if you wanted to be clinically correct, the proper diagnosis would be "sociopathy", not "psychopathy".

The main difference I see on how both terms are used here in Giant Bomb (and I assume that's because they are used differently in the games mentioned) is that a psychopath has clearly lost all contact with reality, while a sociopath is fully aware of their anti-social behavior. A better option would be to change "psychopath" to "psychotic person" or "psychosis", but then again, Dead Rising does call the enemies "psychopaths".

#11 Posted by Hailinel (22704 posts) -

@joeyravn said:

@saturdaynightspecials said:

@marino said:

Seems fine to me to have both.

I would just like to hear an explanation of why it's fine. And why, in contrast, there's a catch-all LGBT page instead of separate pages for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, and Transsexual (and any number of other terms that fall in that category)

That's not an apt analogy. "LGBT" is a term that includes several different sexual orientations. What you are proposing is that one illness ("psychopathy") contains another illness ("sociopathy"), as if the term "gay" included also "transgender", which obviously doesn't. If you were advocating for a "mental illness" page which included both "psychopathy" and "sociopathy", then it would be an OK analogy, though such term is not too suitable for a gaming wiki. Also, if you wanted to be clinically correct, the proper diagnosis would be "sociopathy", not "psychopathy".

The main difference I see on how both terms are used here in Giant Bomb (and I assume that's because they are used differently in the games mentioned) is that a psychopath has clearly lost all contact with reality, while a sociopath is fully aware of their anti-social behavior. A better option would be to change "psychopath" to "psychotic person" or "psychosis", but then again, Dead Rising does call the enemies "psychopaths".

There's also the Insanity page to take into consideration.

#12 Posted by SaturdayNightSpecials (2235 posts) -

@hailinel said:

Except that their behavior is a fantastic form of sociopathy. Just like there are stories that involve fantastically-induced psychopathy. And you're going to have to explain to me how in the world it's offensive if I'm going to take that comment seriously.

I'm no expert on the Kingdom Hearts fiction, but being a Nobody doesn't seem like a 'form' of sociopathy at all. It has a superficial resemblance to it, but if we're to label characters as sociopathic based on such broad criteria, then the page is really about a character archetype, not a true mental disorder, and yet it treats them as one and the same. That's why the page may be offensive towards people who actually are sociopathic, but my point isn't about that, so let's forget it.

LGBT is a common catch-all for term for individuals that aren't heterosexual and is widely used for that purpose. It seems odd to compare it to the relationship of psychopathy and sociopathy.

And both psychopathy and Antisocial Personality Disorder are widely-used catch-all terms for people who suffer from psychopathy or sociopathy. Why is a catch-all not okay in that case, but it's fine for LGBT?

#13 Posted by XChairmanDrekX (265 posts) -

@saturdaynightspecials: If you want lesbian, gay, bisexual and transsexual wiki pages so badly, why don't you just make them yourself? No one is saying you can't.

#14 Posted by SaturdayNightSpecials (2235 posts) -

@joeyravn said:

That's not an apt analogy. "LGBT" is a term that includes several different sexual orientations. What you are proposing is that one illness ("psychopathy") contains another illness ("sociopathy"), as if the term "gay" included also "transgender", which obviously doesn't. If you were advocating for a "mental illness" page which included both "psychopathy" and "sociopathy", then it would be an OK analogy, though such term is not too suitable for a gaming wiki. Also, if you wanted to be clinically correct, the proper diagnosis would be "sociopathy", not "psychopathy".

Like I've said, "psychopathy" is often used to refer to both disorders, so in the page I'm proposing, the title "Psychopathy" is an umbrella covering two (arguably) different concepts, just as LGBT is an umbrella covering many different concepts.

But it doesn't have to be called "Psychopathy". "Antisocial Personality Disorder" would also be a fine title.

The main difference I see on how both terms are used here in Giant Bomb (and I assume that's because they are used differently in the games mentioned) is that a psychopath has clearly lost all contact with reality, while a sociopath is fully aware of their anti-social behavior. A better option would be to change "psychopath" to "psychotic person" or "psychosis", but then again, Dead Rising does call the enemies "psychopaths".

That could also work, but only if the games containing psychopathic characters were then folded into the Sociopathy page (or whatever its title would be).

#15 Posted by JoeyRavn (4886 posts) -

@joeyravn said:

That's not an apt analogy. "LGBT" is a term that includes several different sexual orientations. What you are proposing is that one illness ("psychopathy") contains another illness ("sociopathy"), as if the term "gay" included also "transgender", which obviously doesn't. If you were advocating for a "mental illness" page which included both "psychopathy" and "sociopathy", then it would be an OK analogy, though such term is not too suitable for a gaming wiki. Also, if you wanted to be clinically correct, the proper diagnosis would be "sociopathy", not "psychopathy".

Like I've said, "psychopathy" is often used to refer to both disorders, so in the page I'm proposing, the title "Psychopathy" is an umbrella covering two (arguably) different concepts, just as LGBT is an umbrella covering many different concepts.

But it doesn't have to be called "Psychopathy". "Antisocial Personality Disorder" would also be a fine title.

There is no such thing as a "psychopathy" from a clinical point of view. The correct (and clinically accepted) term is "sociopathy", though "psychopathy" has been used both distinctively and indistinctively to refer to sociopaths. The thing is, both wiki pages differentiate well-enough these terms and justify having two different pages for them. There's very little overlapping between the two.

Still, it's not an apt analogy. If you assume "LGBT" to be the umbrella term, then "mental disorder" or your proposed "Antisocial Personality Disorder" would be the analog you're looking for. But having a wiki page for the umbrella term does not invalidate the need to have different pages for the individual examples of its components. You should create a page that encompasses psychopathy, sociopathy and other personality disorders (kleptomania or compulsive lying, for example) and name it however you want. And you should also create individual pages for lesbian, gay, bisexual, transexual and generally non-cisgender characters too. Again, having a broad term does not mean we can't have the smaller ones too.

#16 Posted by Scampbell (435 posts) -
#17 Edited by Kojdog (74 posts) -

Fuck you. Just because one applies doesn't mean the other does nor is one even a medical term. While I'm not one to split threads usually, the presumption of the OP just bothers me on this. I may be racially and sexually insensitive but this takes the cake... these types of issues apply to all people. I also happen to not necessarily see anything wrong with either so-called condition and consider it more of a personality trait than a disease. The OP point is something along the lines of "down syndrome" = "autism". You may think they're related but the causes and underlying conditions are completely separate from one another.

More to the point, unless a game explicitly references one of these conditions (in a medical sense) why do we have a page for them at all? Please give me some examples. Last I checked this website isn't a subsidiary of WebMD (or is it? The CBS merger is still foggy for me). Leave the doctor shit for the doctors but don't distribute misinformation that barely even applies to our videogame entertainment.

I further move, from the OP, that both pages just outright be removed because it is not the realm or responsibilty of this website to provide accurate or relevant medical information. JUST reference the damn game and send people to an outside expert. You're risking dangerous liabilities otherwise (because people are dumb and misuse information like the OP).

#18 Posted by Dagbiker (6898 posts) -

How about we rename one of the pages, or add a new page called Mental Disorder, or Personality Disorder and link the others to it, or add the others as aliases and add the others as sub paragraphs?

We also do not know if gannon, or any other video game characters actually have a disorder. Many of them are not even humans, and therefor can not be assessed accurately. Not feeling emotion, or acting irrational, may be rational for them.

There is also no reason for this to get emotional.

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