#1 Posted by Hailinel (23680 posts) -

The thread from the old site seems to have been lost, so here it is again. This new Satan page needs to be deleted and its contents merged back into the original Satan page. To reiterate, there was once only one page, but someone created a new page for all of the non-SMT Satan errata, but both pages refer to the same mythological being.

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#2 Posted by Make_Me_Mad (3001 posts) -

It does seem silly to have two pages for what is essentially the same Satan.

But then again, there's a separate page for Thor in general and the Marvel Universe version of Thor, apparently, so maybe there's precedent. Even if said precedent is stupid as hell, because those Thor pages need combining too.

#3 Posted by Video_Game_King (35829 posts) -

@make_me_mad:

That case is different, though, because I think Marvel Thor was a regular person before he was Thor?

#4 Posted by Make_Me_Mad (3001 posts) -

@video_game_king:

Nah, he was always the Norse God Thor in Marvel, his dad just got pissed at him and turned him into an amnesiac crippled doctor for like 10 years to teach him a lesson about humility. There's pretty much no reason I can think of for those pages to be separated.

#5 Posted by Animasta (14635 posts) -

I can't believe you want to combine him again!

didn't you learn this lesson last time D:

#6 Posted by Hailinel (23680 posts) -
@animasta said:

I can't believe you want to combine him again!

didn't you learn this lesson last time D:

I'm stubborn. You should know this by now. :P

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#7 Edited by Animasta (14635 posts) -
@hailinel said:

@animasta

said:

I can't believe you want to combine him again!

didn't you learn this lesson last time D:

I'm stubborn.You should know this by now. :P

well when YHVH comes to shut your shit down and also doom you to spend an eternity of pain and suffering just because you wanted to combine satan twice, don't come crying to me

#8 Posted by Hailinel (23680 posts) -
@animasta said:

@hailinel

said:

@animasta

said:

I can't believe you want to combine him again!

didn't you learn this lesson last time D:

I'm stubborn.You should know this by now. :P

well when YHVH comes to shut your shit down and also doom you to spend an eternity of pain and suffering just because you wanted to combine satan twice, don't come crying to me

I was never a Law path sort of guy, anyway.

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#9 Posted by Eirikr (1006 posts) -

You can't combine Satan with Satan; you can only have one of him in your party at once!

#10 Posted by MEATBALL (3017 posts) -

Combine all pages!

#11 Edited by MariachiMacabre (7039 posts) -

There's a cold wind blowing in this thread, an evil wind. Something dark is at work here.

#12 Edited by NuclearWinter (738 posts) -

For the record, this hasn't been dealt with as I was trying to contact the staff and get their input on how to handle such pages going forwards. Unfortunately I still haven't had a response, but will try talking to them again once things have calmed down a bit with the new site.

Moderator
#13 Edited by NuclearWinter (738 posts) -

@make_me_mad

said:

@video_game_king:

Nah, he was always the Norse God Thor in Marvel, his dad just got pissed at him and turned him into an amnesiac crippled doctor for like 10 years to teach him a lesson about humility.There's pretty much no reason I can think of for those pages to be separated.

I don't believe that it's as clear cut as you think it is. I have a hard time seeing all interpretations of mythological figures being lumped together as the same character. Comic Vine certainly felt they should be separated, even wikipedia has separate Thor pages for different comic interpretations.

However that Marvel Thor page you linked appears to be full of plagiarised content anyway, so thanks for bringing it to our attention!

Moderator
#14 Posted by Make_Me_Mad (3001 posts) -

@make_me_mad

said:

@video_game_king:

Nah, he was always the Norse God Thor in Marvel, his dad just got pissed at him and turned him into an amnesiac crippled doctor for like 10 years to teach him a lesson about humility.There's pretty much no reason I can think of for those pages to be separated.

I don't believe that it's as clear cut as you think it is. I have a hard time seeing all interpretations of mythological figures being lumped together as the same character. Comic Vine certainly felt they should be separated, even wikipedia has separate Thor pages for different comic interpretations.

However that Marvel Thor page you linked appears to be full of plagiarised content anyway, so thanks for bringing it to our attention!

But what's the hard limit on popularity/distinction when it comes to creating a separate page for a character, then? There's a Separate page for YHVH (God as he appears in Shin Megami Tensei) and God as in the Abrahamic deity. If we're going to separate out Shin Megami Tensei's interpretation of Satan from the Mythological Satan page as well, then we need to bust this one level further out and separate Shin Megami Tensei's Thor from the mythological Thor page.

#15 Edited by NuclearWinter (738 posts) -

@make_me_mad

said:

But what's the hard limit on popularity/distinction when it comes to creating a separate page for a character, then?There's a Separate page for YHVH (God as he appears in Shin Megami Tensei) and God as in the Abrahamic deity.If we're going to separate out Shin Megami Tensei's interpretation of Satan from the Mythological Satan page as well, then we need to bust this one level further out and separate Shin Megami Tensei's Thor from the mythological Thor page.

Maybe we do, or maybe it just needs to be taken on a case by case basis and debated if necessary. How do they decide it over on wikipedia?

There's no perfect solution that doesn't also have drawbacks, the best is probably the one which has least negative impact on the quality of the wiki. Ultimately though it will be up to Jeff, and I'm trying to find out what he wants done.

I'm also not necessarily saying that the SMT Satan page should be separate (I think both sides have good arguments), but this has developed into a wider debate on how such pages should be handled and the solution could affect this particular case.

Moderator
#16 Edited by Make_Me_Mad (3001 posts) -

@nuclearwinter:

I have no idea how they decide this sort of thing over on Wikipedia.I'd just like some relative consistency when it comes to which characters have separate pages and which get combined together, so that we don't end up with tons of pages for the same basic character or concept.

Honestly, I'd prefer it if each character page had a list of their appearances sort of like a table of contents.That way YHVH and God could officially be combined and you'd just have to click the Shin Megami Tensei tab or link or whatever to see that version of him.

A much easier solution would just be to have the search bar display a bit more information, or tag the Character pages themselves with a label, so that Thor would be something along the lines of Thor (Marvel), and you could have Satan and Satan (Megami Tensei).

This is all just spitballing, though.I just wanna get this figured out.

Edit: Also the new Satan page is pretty terrible. I think recombining it would actually lower the quality of the SMT Satan page at this point.

#17 Posted by Hailinel (23680 posts) -

@make_me_mad

said:

But what's the hard limit on popularity/distinction when it comes to creating a separate page for a character, then?There's a Separate page for YHVH (God as he appears in Shin Megami Tensei) and God as in the Abrahamic deity.If we're going to separate out Shin Megami Tensei's interpretation of Satan from the Mythological Satan page as well, then we need to bust this one level further out and separate Shin Megami Tensei's Thor from the mythological Thor page.

Maybe we do, or maybe it just needs to be taken on a case by case basis and debated if necessary. How do they decide it over on wikipedia?

There's no perfect solution that doesn't also have drawbacks, the best is probably the one which has least negative impact on the quality of the wiki. Ultimately though it will be up to Jeff, and I'm trying to find out what he wants done.

I'm also not necessarily saying that the SMT Satan page should be separate (I think both sides have good arguments), but this has developed into a wider debate on how such pages should be handled and the solution could affect this particular case.

Wikipedia tends to have pages-long debates that, from my experience, devolve into circular arguments and edit wars (kind of like here). So I don't think that they're really a model to aspire for.

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#18 Posted by NuclearWinter (738 posts) -

@make_me_mad:

I agree that ideally the wiki would be better designed to accommodate such things, kind of like how Comic Vine shows "Marvel character" or "DC Character" in the search. Though it's not such a common problem for videogames and probably wouldn't be considered worth the extra coding effort. We could essentially achieve the same thing by just naming pages clearly as you suggest: Amaterasu (Okami), Amaterasu (Shin Megami Tensei) - the wikipedia method.

If we didn't want to just separate or consolidate all such pages (though either of those would probably be simplest) then there could also be a generic Amaterasu page that includes two sections. Something like a "Notable Interpretations" section that has links to Amaterasu (Okami) and Amaterasu (Shin Megami Tensei). Then a following section for "Other Videogame Appearances" that lists games she appears in with a short paragraph about each.

What justifies a separate page? I'm inclined to say that if someone is able to and wanting to write more than just a paragraph about the characters role in that game, then go ahead and give it a clearly named page. Otherwise there isn't much need to separate them.

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#19 Edited by Make_Me_Mad (3001 posts) -

@nuclearwinter:

So essentially, if one was willing to put a decent amount of effort into it, they could separate the character page out for each game they were in?That sounds like the kind of rule that'll lead to widespread chaos and a general Reign of Anarchy.

In other words I fully support it, and the inevitable wave of recombines that happen to clean up the mess left over.

Edit: And by 'Game' what I meant was their distinct versions from series to series, or something along those lines.

#20 Edited by NuclearWinter (738 posts) -

@make_me_mad:

Eh, I don't think it's a common enough situation that it would spawn many new pages at all, let alone cause widespread chaos. As a site that encourages multiple pages for different kinds of swords, I don't think we'd have much to worry about really. And if people are actually putting effort and content into them, they would be better than about 80% of pages currently in the database.

Anyway, it's just one idea and far from being any kind of official change.

Moderator
#22 Posted by Alexander (1721 posts) -

Like I said before one being "first" doesn't make it more legitimate than the second, the Megami Tensei version (being a specific and isolated interpretation) should exist as a subheading on the general page if they are to be combined, the original contributor for that page can go ahead and write it again for the credit.

Are you suggesting the one and only page for Satan depicts the character of the Megami Tensei version as it's primary image and introductory text?

I would even be inclined to say Satan should exist as a concept since there are interpretations. That would then leave it open for separate character pages if they are needed.

#23 Posted by Hailinel (23680 posts) -

Like I said before one being "first" doesn't make it more legitimate than the second, the Megami Tensei version (being a specific and isolated interpretation) should exist as a subheading on the general page if they are to be combined, the original contributor for that page can go ahead and write it again for the credit.

Are you suggesting the one and only page for Satan depicts the character of the Megami Tensei version as it's primary image and introductory text?

I would even be inclined to say Satan should exist as a concept since there are interpretations. That would then leave it open for separate character pages if they are needed.

No, I am suggesting that the page that was created first be the page that is kept because that's the page on which most of the work was done before someone cut and pasted wholesale to the duplicate page, leaving the original with only the SMT Satan information and a snarkily-written deck. That sort of behavior doesn't warrant rewarding in my opinion.

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#24 Posted by kerse (2100 posts) -

combining two satans seems like a real bad idea you guys

#25 Edited by Alexander (1721 posts) -

@hailinel: I hadn't realised the content on the second page was lifted, so I'll take back what I said about precedence. I think there is still a problem with a general page for Satan as a character when he or it exists as different characters and interpretations in different games. See Cid, see Chocobo. Not that I'm defending the ripping of content, I think it's perhaps right that the Megami Tensei version has it's own page, Lou from Guitar Hero III should have his own and so on, Satan should be a concept and a separate character for every game (or series) it is a part of.

#26 Posted by Hailinel (23680 posts) -

@hailinel: I hadn't realised the content on the second page was lifted, so I'll take back what I said about precedence. I think there is still a problem with a general page for Satan as a character when he or it exists as different characters and interpretations in different games. See Cid, see Chocobo. Not that I'm defending the ripping of content, I think it's perhaps right that the Megami Tensei version has it's own page, Lou from Guitar Hero III should have his own and so on, Satan should be a concept and a separate character for every game (or series) it is a part of.

The Cids of Final Fantasy are all different characters. That's why there's a Cid concept to denote that idea. An actual Chocobo character appears in the Chocobo's Dungeon/Final Fantasy Fables series. Though they might not necessarily be the exact same Chocobo, the difference between them is negligible.

There are numerous Satan characters that are all based on the same source; the figure of Judeo-Christian tradition. How that figure is represented through the various incarnations and interpretations doesn't really change that. And if we were to break up Satan into multiple pages, what of the two versions of Dante, whom by how the rules have been enforced up to this point are represented by the same page despite being two very different interpretations of the same character?

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#27 Posted by egg (1450 posts) -

Having the Dantes merged makes sense I think only in the sense that the Spider-Mans are merged even though there are at least 3 continuities. (comics, film, and reboot film)

#28 Edited by Alexander (1721 posts) -

@hailinel said:

The Cids of Final Fantasy are all different characters. That's why there's a Cid concept to denote that idea. An actual Chocobo character appears in the Chocobo's Dungeon/Final Fantasy Fables series. Though they might not necessarily be the exact same Chocobo, the difference between them is negligible.

There are numerous Satan characters that are all based on the same source; the figure of Judeo-Christian tradition. How that figure is represented through the various incarnations and interpretations doesn't really change that. And if we were to break up Satan into multiple pages, what of the two versions of Dante, whom by how the rules have been enforced up to this point are represented by the same page despite being two very different interpretations of the same character?

"There are numerous Satan characters that are all based on the same source; the figure of Judeo-Christian tradition."

I agree with you there, but where you say source & figure, you're essentially talking about a concept, the Judeo-Christian concept of Satan, the character differs widely between games as does the interpretation from faiths. At the very least it would seem a bit weird to combine this page with this one does it not? It would seem to me an example of two completely different characters from different franchises that could only deserve their own pages, it just so happens they share the same name and some tendencies.

The Cids Satans of Final Fantasy different franchises are all different characters. That's why there's a Cid Satan concept to denote that idea.

Cid seems like a pretty good example.

Going back to Lou from Guitar Hero III, at no point is it stated he is Satan, but he is red, has horns and makes a deal with the band which results in them playing a gig in what can best be described as hell. The character relates to ancient Greek mythology and the links with hard rock and the Judeo-Christian-Islamic concept of Satan. We're not talking about a character that derives from another character, rather concepts.

Personally I think there might be a case for a different Dante page if the entire backstory has been rewritten. At the same time, because it's the same franchise I think we see a case for the two versions to be on the same page. @egg brings up Spider-Man, and I'll refer to Comic Vine's most impressive page on the character. At the same time we have character pages for variations / versions [edit] while the main page attempts to contain what's cannon.

Even if you disagree on whether Satan is a concept, you will have to admit different character pages are warranted.

#29 Posted by egg (1450 posts) -

Regarding Comic Vine. I was just thinking that. Look at DC's "New 52" reboot. Comic Vine doesn't have separate pages for the New 52 versions of the characters, even though it would actually make sense to do so, especially in those cases where characters have new origin stories or even new personalities. So although I personally would have made Dante and DmC Dante separate, examples like Comic Vine are a viable precedent to keep them the same.

#30 Posted by Alexander (1721 posts) -
@egg said:

Regarding Comic Vine. I was just thinking that. Look at DC's "New 52" reboot. Comic Vine doesn't have separate pages for the New 52 versions of the characters, even though it would actually make sense to do so, especially in those cases where characters have new origin stories or even new personalities. So although I personally would have made Dante and DmC Dante separate, examples like Comic Vine are a viable precedent to keep them the same.

Comic Vine at the same time as having a single page for Spider Man, does not have a page for Peter Parker but has variations on the character in Pavitr Prabhakar & Peter Parquagh, both with different origin stories. Spider-Man seems a bit like a can of worms I shouldn't have opened as I'm not a comic book buff, but as I said in the case of Dante, if the backstory is changed there's an argument for a separate page, at the same time an argument for one as it's the same franchise. In the case of Satan we're talking about wildly different characters of different franchises linked by a concept.

#31 Posted by Hailinel (23680 posts) -

@hailinel said:

The Cids of Final Fantasy are all different characters. That's why there's a Cid concept to denote that idea. An actual Chocobo character appears in the Chocobo's Dungeon/Final Fantasy Fables series. Though they might not necessarily be the exact same Chocobo, the difference between them is negligible.

There are numerous Satan characters that are all based on the same source; the figure of Judeo-Christian tradition. How that figure is represented through the various incarnations and interpretations doesn't really change that. And if we were to break up Satan into multiple pages, what of the two versions of Dante, whom by how the rules have been enforced up to this point are represented by the same page despite being two very different interpretations of the same character?

"There are numerous Satan characters that are all based on the same source; the figure of Judeo-Christian tradition."

I agree with you there, but where you say source & figure, you're essentially talking about a concept, the Judeo-Christian concept of Satan, the character differs widely between games as does the interpretation from faiths. At the very least it would seem a bit weird to combine this page with this one does it not? It would seem to me an example of two completely different characters from different franchises that could only deserve their own pages, it just so happens they share the same name and some tendencies.


Those links both lead to the same Satan page. It would be ridiculous to combine them because they're the same. :P

That there are different interpretations of Satan doesn't necessarily mean that they're different characters. Unless stated otherwise, they all presumably come from the same place, even if their depictions of personality, character, and demeanor aren't identical.

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#32 Edited by Alexander (1721 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@alexander said:

@hailinel said:

The Cids of Final Fantasy are all different characters. That's why there's a Cid concept to denote that idea. An actual Chocobo character appears in the Chocobo's Dungeon/Final Fantasy Fables series. Though they might not necessarily be the exact same Chocobo, the difference between them is negligible.

There are numerous Satan characters that are all based on the same source; the figure of Judeo-Christian tradition. How that figure is represented through the various incarnations and interpretations doesn't really change that. And if we were to break up Satan into multiple pages, what of the two versions of Dante, whom by how the rules have been enforced up to this point are represented by the same page despite being two very different interpretations of the same character?

"There are numerous Satan characters that are all based on the same source; the figure of Judeo-Christian tradition."

I agree with you there, but where you say source & figure, you're essentially talking about a concept, the Judeo-Christian concept of Satan, the character differs widely between games as does the interpretation from faiths. At the very least it would seem a bit weird to combine this page with this one does it not? It would seem to me an example of two completely different characters from different franchises that could only deserve their own pages, it just so happens they share the same name and some tendencies.


Those links both lead to the same Satan page. It would be ridiculous to combine them because they're the same. :P

That there are different interpretations of Satan doesn't necessarily mean that they're different characters. Unless stated otherwise, they all presumably come from the same place, even if their depictions of personality, character, and demeanor aren't identical.

Silly me! I meant this one and this one. One page for these two? Come on, these are two separate characters. Where you say coming from the same "place" I'm reading "concept", give it a go, it makes complete sense.

It's not like Sam Fisher who keeps getting younger and with the upcoming title, appears to have a completely different personality etc. I wish they retired Fisher and kept him on as a mentor or something, instead they change the personality, physique and age. It bums me out but that's a case of the same (albeit butchered) character, whereas the Satans above are not.

Lou from GHIII again, he has more in common with the standard concept of Satan than the one in Umineko no Naku Koro ni (I don't have a clue what series this is but it's one of the examples linked above). Yet his name is not Satan, does the character page for Satan include Lou as an alias? Does Lou get his own page but the "servant to the Golden Witch" (Satan example above) not?

#33 Posted by Hailinel (23680 posts) -

@alexander: The Satan of the Umineko series is only named for Satan and does not actually represent the Christian figure. This isn't about merging every character named Satan under one page. It's about taking those that do represent the Judeo-Christian figure.

Lou of Guitar Hero is a representation of the religious/mythological Satan, is he not? Then in that case, yes, I can't see why he shouldn't be merged in.

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#34 Edited by Alexander (1721 posts) -

@hailinel: I think "Lou" references "Lucifer", so maybe the Lucifer page can be merged with Satan too? The character also has hooves, and is from Hades, so the references are all over the place. Yes he's in part a representation of Satan but branding him the same character as some of the other Satan's appears problematic. That's why it makes more sense for a Satan concept page and individual character pages per franchise.

#35 Posted by Hailinel (23680 posts) -

@hailinel: I think "Lou" references "Lucifer", so maybe the Lucifer page can be merged with Satan too? The character also has hooves, and is from Hades, so the references are all over the place. Yes he's in part a representation of Satan but branding him the same character as some of the other Satan's appears problematic. That's why it makes more sense for a Satan concept page and individual character pages per franchise.

Lucifer and Satan are not the same being.

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#36 Posted by Alexander (1721 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@alexander said:

@hailinel: I think "Lou" references "Lucifer", so maybe the Lucifer page can be merged with Satan too? The character also has hooves, and is from Hades, so the references are all over the place. Yes he's in part a representation of Satan but branding him the same character as some of the other Satan's appears problematic. That's why it makes more sense for a Satan concept page and individual character pages per franchise.

Lucifer and Satan are not the same being.

I wasn't seriously suggesting they merge, as concepts they differ but what I'm pointing to is the problem with loose interpretations of Satan, varying, referencing different concepts, it makes a singular Satan character page a problem when you want to band them all together.

#37 Posted by OfficeGamer (1087 posts) -

You will go to hell for this request! Repent!

#38 Posted by Hailinel (23680 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@alexander said:

@hailinel: I think "Lou" references "Lucifer", so maybe the Lucifer page can be merged with Satan too? The character also has hooves, and is from Hades, so the references are all over the place. Yes he's in part a representation of Satan but branding him the same character as some of the other Satan's appears problematic. That's why it makes more sense for a Satan concept page and individual character pages per franchise.

Lucifer and Satan are not the same being.

I wasn't seriously suggesting they merge, as concepts they differ but what I'm pointing to is the problem with loose interpretations of Satan, varying, referencing different concepts, it makes a singular Satan character page a problem when you want to band them all together.

If the character in question is Satan (and not just a character referentially given that name), I don't see why it shouldn't be included.

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#39 Posted by Alexander (1721 posts) -

@hailinel you're missing the point which is a character may reference the concept of Satan, may be called Satan but also draw their attributes from other areas. I use Lou as an example of a character that pulls from different concepts but would probably be identified by most people as "Satan". To put Lou in the same page as the the Megami Tensei version could be achieved but would be an inelegant way to go about it when they appear to be different characters.

Satan from Madou Monogatari is referenced on the "new" Satan page (perhaps once part of the "original") and yet has even less to do with the Judeo-Christian-Islamic concept of Satan than the Megami Tensie version. Again, different characters, deserving separate character pages.

#40 Posted by Hailinel (23680 posts) -

Satan from Madou Monogatari is referenced on the "new" Satan page (perhaps once part of the "original") and yet has even less to do with the Judeo-Christian-Islamic concept of Satan than the Megami Tensie version. Again, different characters, deserving separate character pages.

I don't know enough about that particular incarnation to make a qualified judgment on that. His entry on the page doesn't really state much about his origins or mythological connection. And if he is a completely different Satan, then maybe he needs to just be split off.

Like I said, I'm not talking about combining all Satans under the sun here.

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#41 Edited by Gunstar_Ikari (46 posts) -

@hailinel said:

@alexander said:

Satan from Madou Monogatari is referenced on the "new" Satan page (perhaps once part of the "original") and yet has even less to do with the Judeo-Christian-Islamic concept of Satan than the Megami Tensie version. Again, different characters, deserving separate character pages.

I don't know enough about that particular incarnation to make a qualified judgment on that. His entry on the page doesn't really state much about his origins or mythological connection. And if he is a completely different Satan, then maybe he needs to just be split off.

Like I said, I'm not talking about combining all Satans under the sun here.

I've considered splitting the Madou Monogatari/Puyo Puyo Satan off for a good while.The problem is that there's not really any conclusive evidence that states whether he's supposed to be Satan from the Bible or if he's Satan in name only. I personally lean towards that latter; hell, he's not even named Satan in the English Puyo games.