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#1 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -

For some reason, a user created a duplicate Satan page and moved a shit-ton of information from the original Satan page onto it. The content should be moved back to the original page and the duplicate should be deleted.

#2 Posted by Eirikr (1009 posts) -

Nice catch, Hailinel. The Megami Tensei version of Satan does indeed not warrant a different page, as it (by and large) depicts an early interpretation of the figure that's connected to the modern, ubiquitous Devil.

#3 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7099 posts) -

Combining multiple Satans (Mephistopheleses?) sounds like a terrible idea. That's how Diablo messed up Heaven, or whatever the hell happened in Diablo 3.

#4 Posted by TheDudeOfGaming (6078 posts) -

And uh, If I may ask, why were you searching for Satan?

#5 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -

@MariachiMacabre said:

Combining multiple Satans (Mephistopheleses?) sounds like a terrible idea. That's how Diablo messed up Heaven, or whatever the hell happened in Diablo 3.

Combining demons in the Diablo universe is a terrible idea, but here it makes perfect sense here. There was no need to split this into two pages.

#6 Edited by Deusoma (3018 posts) -

Well, for some reason, even though the original page was meant to be a generalized page for Satan, someone insisted on repeatedly changing the default image to be the blue worm thing that is connected with the Megami Tensei franchise and only the Megami Tensei franchise, instead of a more generic image, like a red-skinned man with horns. I figured the easiest thing to do was to split them up. There are separate pages for " Alice", the protagonist of Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland, and " Alice Liddell", who is acknowledged to be the same character, but only within the American McGee's Alice franchise. Why is this different?
 
EDIT: I will admit it would have been smarter for me to make the new page the Megami Tensei-specific page, but that only occurred to me when I was almost done. That part is my bad.

#7 Posted by Gunstar_Ikari (46 posts) -

The info should be recombined with the default image set to a game-neutral depiction of Satan.

On a slightly contradictory note, I was going to make a separate page for the Puyo Puyo Satan (who steers close to in-name-only territory and gets renamed to Dark Prince in the English games anyway) but I decided against it in the end. Would it be a good idea to split that into its own page?

#8 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -

@Deusoma said:

Well, for some reason, even though the original page was meant to be a generalized page for Satan, someone insisted on repeatedly changing the default image to be the blue worm thing that is connected with the Megami Tensei franchise and only the Megami Tensei franchise, instead of a more generic image, like a red-skinned man with horns. I figured the easiest thing to do was to split them up. There are separate pages for " Alice", the protagonist of Lewis Carroll's Alice in Wonderland, and " Alice Liddell", who is acknowledged to be the same character, but only within the American McGee's Alice franchise. Why is this different?

EDIT: I will admit it would have been smarter for me to make the new page the Megami Tensei-specific page, but that only occurred to me when I was almost done. That part is my bad.

Image edit wars are no excuse for this. Also, the general rule of the wiki is that mythological deities get one character page to share across games. Alice in Megami Tensei bears an appearance similar to that of Alice from Lewis Carroll's story, but is not linked directly to that story. The background for her in the various demon/persona compendiums in the Megami Tensei franchise make no reference to anything that occurs in Alice in Wonderland, nor any reference to Carroll.

#9 Posted by Deusoma (3018 posts) -
@Hailinel: For the record, I had no idea there was any "Alice" in Megami Tensei. I was referring to a page for general depictions of Alice, the little girl from Alice in Wonderland, which was separate from Alice Liddell, protagonist of American McGee's Alice and Alice: Madness Returns. Actually, on closer inspection, that first one appears to be specific to the Disney version of the same character, which just confuses the matter further.

But balls to it, I've had a lousy night, this would just be the cap on it. If you guys really think this is stupid, then change it back, but this was not a joke edit or deliberate vandalism, I swear my heart was in the right place on this one. But if you do change it back, please, for crying out loud, make sure the default image is more generic? Someone has seen fit to aggressively enforce their own personal rule that any character that appears in the Megami Tensei franchise must have that version of the character as their default page image, no matter how inappropriate it is to generalized depictions of that character, and that's not really in the spirit of the database.
#10 Posted by Eirikr (1009 posts) -

Image wars aside, they are not different characters, so they don't need different pages. The Alice Liddell of the AMcG games does seem to be a different character with different origins and personality than the Carroll original. Kind of a gray area I suppose, though I really have no opinion on it. On Satan, however, I do.

Here's the deal with Satan, as short as I can possible make it. In a sentence, Satan is the ultimate Western supernatural answer to the so-called "problem of evil." Satan's earliest appearances in the Old Testament hint to the name being a title ("adversary" or "opposer") rather than referring to a single being. These satans appear as spiritual roadblocks to believers. The most famous appearance of the singular Satan appears in the book of Job, where Satan is a member of God's heavenly court, and the two discuss the fate of Job directly. Far from the horned, red-skinned devil he would appear as centuries upon centuries later. Later, in the Jewish apocryphal books the first couple centuries BC, such as the book of Enoch, Satan appears as a fallen angel and symbol of evil. The Megami Tensei Satan, as best as I've been able to understand on my own, is nestled in-between these two eras of his character, probably leaning closer to how he appears in Job.

With the onset of Christianity and the influence it received from Platonic philosophy, the answer to the problem of evil turned towards an absence of good, and thus Satan. As Christianity was canonized in Europe, the old gods of the Greeks and Romans were villainized and demonized, and Satan began to take their forms because they represented ways of thinking that were no longer kosher. This is the Devil most of us in the West are much more familiar with.

Still, it's wrong to reject an earlier part of his story just because he's not depicted as a cloven-hooved, pitchfork-wielding creature. The Megami Tensei Satan merely portrays a part of his history before he went through that awkward, rebellious phase.

#11 Edited by I_smell (3924 posts) -

What's weird about this is that there's so many interpretations of what is basically "the devil".
Like some games depict him as Lucifer the fallen angel from heaven, others just make him a giant red minatour, and sometimes he's like a voice that represents the essence of evil. Sometimes he's just an opposite counterpoint to whatever the "God" character is.
 
It's not ACCURATE to have one character page for all, because they're not all the same thing, but I guess it's more USEFUL to consolidate them?
 Also in looking up these pages, I found that there's an anime girl version of Beelzebub, Lucifer, Satan, and a second page for what is basically Hades.
 
@Eirikr: Should Satan be a concept page that encapsulates characters who embody the root of all evil, or are the king of all demons or whatever?
Cos then that could act as a directory for anyone who's looking for SPECIFIC game depictions of the devil, which I think would be the most useful thing to have in a database like this.

#12 Posted by Eirikr (1009 posts) -

@I_smell:There are tons of different comic and anime characters that take the names of mythological characters. Most of the time I think they warrant having separate pages, but I'm no expert on those subjects!

And nah, Satan shouldn't be a concept. Think of Satan in Giant Bomb terms: in his early history, Satan referred to both a 'character' and a 'concept.' Now, he's just a character. Reworking the Satan page to include a better history and definitions, and a greatly expanded analysis of game appearances was honestly one of the next things I was going to work on.

#13 Edited by I_smell (3924 posts) -
@Eirikr: Ok, well expanding his information and having a better countdown of how he's shown differently in different games is fair enough.
It's probably the nicest solution to have something like:
 

Interpretations of Satan in videogame fiction:

DOOM

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah image

DIABLO

 blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah image

DEVIL MAY CRY

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah image

etc etc.
#14 Posted by Alexander (1723 posts) -

The version that relates to a specific version of Satan should be combined with the other, wider interpretation.

#15 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -

@Alexander said:

The version that relates to a specific version of Satan should be combined with the other, wider interpretation.

The page about the specific version was the original page. Deusoma took the vast majority of its content out and created a new page with it. The new page is the one that should be deleted.

#16 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -

@Deusoma said:

@Hailinel: For the record, I had no idea there was any "Alice" in Megami Tensei. I was referring to a page for general depictions of Alice, the little girl from Alice in Wonderland, which was separate from Alice Liddell, protagonist of American McGee's Alice and Alice: Madness Returns. Actually, on closer inspection, that first one appears to be specific to the Disney version of the same character, which just confuses the matter further.

But balls to it, I've had a lousy night, this would just be the cap on it. If you guys really think this is stupid, then change it back, but this was not a joke edit or deliberate vandalism, I swear my heart was in the right place on this one. But if you do change it back, please, for crying out loud, make sure the default image is more generic? Someone has seen fit to aggressively enforce their own personal rule that any character that appears in the Megami Tensei franchise must have that version of the character as their default page image, no matter how inappropriate it is to generalized depictions of that character, and that's not really in the spirit of the database.

Megami Tensei's Alice, right here.

And I wish I could believe that this wasn't a deliberate vandalism, but given your history, you make this very hard for me to believe, and I doubt I'm the only one that feels this way. For the record, I think that the whole image edit war was unnecessary and is on par with the one plaguing the Dante page in terms of overall ridiculousness. Were you the one that outright deleted the MegaTen Satan image from the character's image gallery at one point? I'm not saying that I disagree that the image for the page should be more neutral in its origin, but there are better ways to resolve these disputes.

#17 Posted by Alexander (1723 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

@Alexander said:

The version that relates to a specific version of Satan should be combined with the other, wider interpretation.

The page about the specific version was the original page. Deusoma took the vast majority of its content out and created a new page with it. The new page is the one that should be deleted.

I'm not sure if one being first should come into it, if there is to be one page (and I agree with you), one of these pages takes precedence, the other is a sub-heading. As for lifted content, there isn't much on either so it's not like it matters, if the "original" one stays the content on there becomes a sub heading, the front image most likely changes.

#18 Posted by Irvandus (2881 posts) -

It should be combined

#19 Edited by Hunter5024 (5820 posts) -

I think the only way to settle this is to perform a dark ritual and ask him ourselves.

#20 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7099 posts) -
@Hunter5024

I think the only way to settle this is to perform a dark ritual and ask him ourselves.

This is EXACTLY what I warned against at the start of the thread.
#21 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -

@Alexander said:

@Hailinel said:

@Alexander said:

The version that relates to a specific version of Satan should be combined with the other, wider interpretation.

The page about the specific version was the original page. Deusoma took the vast majority of its content out and created a new page with it. The new page is the one that should be deleted.

I'm not sure if one being first should come into it, if there is to be one page (and I agree with you), one of these pages takes precedence, the other is a sub-heading. As for lifted content, there isn't much on either so it's not like it matters, if the "original" one stays the content on there becomes a sub heading, the front image most likely changes.

The thing is, keeping the new page would only negate work put into the original page, rewarding the new page's creator and while not necessarily penalizing the contributors to the orignal page, eliminates the recognition given to them. It's easy enough to put the content back on the original page.

#22 Posted by MikkaQ (10318 posts) -

God every time I think of editing/adding to the wiki, I always see threads like these that turn me off on the whole idea.

#23 Posted by Hunter5024 (5820 posts) -

@MariachiMacabre said:

@Hunter5024

I think the only way to settle this is to perform a dark ritual and ask him ourselves.

This is EXACTLY what I warned against at the start of the thread.

If you have a better idea, feel free to voice it now, in the meantime, I'm gonna go murder this lamb.

@MikkaQ said:

God every time I think of editing/adding to the wiki, I always see threads like these that turn me off on the whole idea.

Weird, because every time I see a thread like this it makes me want to work on the wiki. Wiki politics son!

#24 Posted by MikkaQ (10318 posts) -

@Hunter5024: Waah too much drama for me. I don't like the internet adding to my stress. But I can see the appeal in arguing. The butt jiggling vs. butt wiggling argument from a couple days ago was amazing to witness.

#25 Posted by Deusoma (3018 posts) -
@Hailinel: Oh please, friend Hailinel, if I was going to perform vandalism on this scale, I would have been lazier and sillier about it. Instead of taking the time and effort to remove 50+ games from one page and add them to another, I'd have just blanked the entire Satan page, replaced the content with a simple pop culture reference, perhaps 'WYLD STALLIONS RULE', and then made the default image on the page the first thing that came up from a Google image search for whatever swear word popped into my head first. :P
 
But joking aside (and I don't say that very often), how exactly should such a dispute be settled? That isn't sarcasm, I actually looked for a place to lodge a complaint about the image war, and came up with nothing. See, if I'd known I could do that, that would have been way easier than these new page shenanigans. I fully admit that I am a somewhat ridiculous person, but I like to think I'm at least not a stupid one. Let me know what to do the next time such an issue comes up, so I don't make an ass of myself again.
#26 Posted by Demoskinos (15019 posts) -

Is it wrong to chuckle by the fact someone has Adolph Hitler as Satan's "friend"

#27 Posted by Spoonman671 (4699 posts) -

I kind of feel like Satan should be a concept, and any particularly noteworthy appearances could have their own character pages, but wiki stuff isn't really my thing so maybe I'm talking out of my ass.

#28 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -

@Deusoma: The Editing & Tools forum is generally a place where those debates go. See the thread on Dante's primary image from last year for an example. The main thing though is that, for a character like Satan, who has many, many interpretations beyond "red horned guy" and Kazuma Kaneko's depiction of him in the MegaTen franchise, there is no right or wrong answer here. It's not something you can really lodge a complaint about. The best you can do is start a forum thread to open up a debate and then at least try to discuss the matter in a civilized forum without resorting to edit wars that go back and forth for perpetuity.

#29 Edited by Beforet (2929 posts) -

Hm, could it be argued that the new page could be kept so long as it focused on the specific character of the SMT franchise? Take out all the content related to general Satan lore, and keep the page related to that specific character, with a link to the Satan concept page for more general information?

Now, I'm looking at the SMT page, and I agree that with the amount of content it doesn't really deserve it's one spot. However, if it was filled out to actually go into detail on the actions, motives and characterizations of the various appearances of Satan throughout the series as a character (not just as a pokedemon in the Persona games) then the page can justify it's existence. There's a page for the Umineko character Satan, with a whole lotta info on her, and I think that's a similar situation.

Edit: Misread, didn't realize that the new page was the general one. Well, then I guess I mean the old? I don't know. If it's generally agreed that having one page would be more useful, then I guess I have no problem with that. Might be easier to just have that stuff in the actual game pages for the series.

#30 Posted by Eirikr (1009 posts) -

For the record, the Megami Tensei Satan is literally supposed to be the Satan of Judeo-Christian tradition. Everything should go back to the original page.

#31 Posted by Slag (4615 posts) -

There is no doubt in my mind , these pages absolutely should be recombined.

It's the same character,whether the lead image was wrong or not is a different issue.

#32 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -

Yo? Maybe we need to take the initiative and move things back ourselves first?

#33 Posted by Eirikr (1009 posts) -

@Hailinel: Something I've been itching to do, but of course I wanted to hear the word first.

#34 Posted by MariachiMacabre (7099 posts) -

Satan was left unchecked? Pat Robertson was right all along!

But seriously, this was never fixed?

#35 Posted by Shirogane (3579 posts) -

In this situaiton these two pages are basically the same Satan, so they should probably be combined. There are arguments for other Satans to exist, like the anime girl one mentioned above, but not in this case. The Satan in SMT is supposed to be that same one in the other page, it's not a new entity that just happens to be named Satan. Like maybe Mr Satan.

#36 Edited by NuclearWinter (767 posts) -

Unless there's enough of a difference to justify a separate page then I'd agree that the SMT character can be a paragraph on the more general Satan page. On the other hand, if a significant amount of text could be written solely regarding the SMT character then it would probably be better for it have its own page, though from reading this thread that doesn't appear to be the case.

It should be noted that the same thing is going on with God and YHVH too.

Moderator Online
#37 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -
@NuclearWinter

Unless there's enough of a difference to justify a separate page then I'd agree that the SMT character can be a paragraph on the more general Satan page. On the other hand, if a significant amount of text could be written solely regarding the SMT character then it would probably be better for it have its own page, though from reading this thread that doesn't appear to be the case.

It should be noted that the same thing is going on with God and YHVH too.

The Satan of SMT is a depiction of the Judeo-Christian Satan. It doesn't need its own page. The God page by contrast doesn't seem to limit itself to the Judeo-Christian God and is used for any game with a singular, monotheistic, nameless deity.
#38 Posted by NuclearWinter (767 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

@NuclearWinter

Unless there's enough of a difference to justify a separate page then I'd agree that the SMT character can be a paragraph on the more general Satan page. On the other hand, if a significant amount of text could be written solely regarding the SMT character then it would probably be better for it have its own page, though from reading this thread that doesn't appear to be the case.

It should be noted that the same thing is going on with God and YHVH too.

The Satan of SMT is a depiction of the Judeo-Christian Satan. It doesn't need its own page. The God page by contrast doesn't seem to limit itself to the Judeo-Christian God and is used for any game with a singular, monotheistic, nameless deity.

That text on the page specifies the God of the Abrahamic religions, as does the Satan page.

Moderator Online
#39 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -
@NuclearWinter

@Hailinel said:

@NuclearWinter

Unless there's enough of a difference to justify a separate page then I'd agree that the SMT character can be a paragraph on the more general Satan page. On the other hand, if a significant amount of text could be written solely regarding the SMT character then it would probably be better for it have its own page, though from reading this thread that doesn't appear to be the case.

It should be noted that the same thing is going on with God and YHVH too.

The Satan of SMT is a depiction of the Judeo-Christian Satan. It doesn't need its own page. The God page by contrast doesn't seem to limit itself to the Judeo-Christian God and is used for any game with a singular, monotheistic, nameless deity.

That text on the page specifies the God of the Abrahamic religions, as does the Satan page.

Ah. There used to be, from what I recall, instances of God that wasn't that god associated with that page, so I was mistaken. But the case being what it us, God isn't the deity's proper name, anyway. That page could be merged into the YHVH page easily.
#40 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -
@NuclearWinter

@Hailinel said:

@NuclearWinter

Unless there's enough of a difference to justify a separate page then I'd agree that the SMT character can be a paragraph on the more general Satan page. On the other hand, if a significant amount of text could be written solely regarding the SMT character then it would probably be better for it have its own page, though from reading this thread that doesn't appear to be the case.

It should be noted that the same thing is going on with God and YHVH too.

The Satan of SMT is a depiction of the Judeo-Christian Satan. It doesn't need its own page. The God page by contrast doesn't seem to limit itself to the Judeo-Christian God and is used for any game with a singular, monotheistic, nameless deity.

That text on the page specifies the God of the Abrahamic religions, as does the Satan page.

Also, sorry for the double-post, I'm on mobile, but the non-SMT Satan page was crestfallen by someone that took all that info from the mire general Satan page to create an SMT-free page. The page that us currently SMT specific is the one that should be kept and made the all-encompassing page, as it was originally.
#41 Edited by NuclearWinter (767 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

That page could be merged into the YHVH page easily.

Yup.

The only problem with these all encompassing pages for multiple depictions of a deity is what happens when someone wants to write lengthy material about a particular depiction. The YHVH page has so much text about the SMT games that it either crowds out and discourages text about depictions in other games, or if someone does decide to write that much text about other game portrayals then it potentially ends up becoming quite a mess. This is why I mention that a particular portrayal could perhaps warrant its own (clearly named) page, if there's enough material and differences to justify it. As Wikipedia sometimes does for example.

Not saying that's the case here and perhaps it wouldn't ever be a problem anyway, just rambling about possibilities.

Moderator Online
#42 Posted by believer258 (11999 posts) -

Wouldn't it be better to have a page for general facts about Satan's appearances in games and, if a game has a whole lot of plot detail about him (like SMT does), give that particular version of the character a whole page?

I just feel like Satan, in some form, has been in so many games that his more pronounced appearances could use their own pages.

#43 Posted by Mento (2698 posts) -

So what in blazes is the bottom line here? Are we sticking with the devil we know? Or are we holding onto the lesser of two evils as well?

While this seems unrelated, I've noticed a spat of pages either pulling double duty or separate pages that might need some combining. For instance, I've been wondering why we have a single page for two (or three?) completely different Willow video game adaptations. It's also the case that some company pages are redirected (via aliases) to their modern, merged incarnations while others (like Squaresoft and Bandai) have older "legacy" equivalents to attach to their pre-merger games. We could really use some solid guidelines for all this business come the new wiki.

Moderator
#44 Posted by Praxis (261 posts) -

As long as the character is sufficiently distinct from the religious/mythological figure they're based on, a separate page probably isn't harmful. The God of War version of Zeus, for instance, could easily have his own article if someone chose to write it, and simply naming it "Zeus (God of War)" would avoid any possible confusion. Of course, the problem with the YHVH page is that it spends a good deal of time discussing the biblical YHVH in addition to the SMT character, so calling it "YHVH (Shin Megami Tensei)" wouldn't be entirely accurate.

#45 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -

@NuclearWinter said:

@Hailinel said:

That page could be merged into the YHVH page easily.

Yup.

The only problem with these all encompassing pages for multiple depictions of a deity is what happens when someone wants to write lengthy material about a particular depiction. The YHVH page has so much text about the SMT games that it either crowds out and discourages text about depictions in other games, or if someone does decide to write that much text about other game portrayals then it potentially ends up becoming quite a mess. This is why I mention that a particular portrayal could perhaps warrant its own (clearly named) page, if there's enough material and differences to justify it. As Wikipedia sometimes does for example.

Not saying that's the case here and perhaps it wouldn't ever be a problem anyway, just rambling about possibilities.

@Praxis said:

As long as the character is sufficiently distinct from the religious/mythological figure they're based on, a separate page probably isn't harmful. The God of War version of Zeus, for instance, could easily have his own article if someone chose to write it, and simply naming it "Zeus (God of War)" would avoid any possible confusion. Of course, the problem with the YHVH page is that it spends a good deal of time discussing the biblical YHVH in addition to the SMT character, so calling it "YHVH (Shin Megami Tensei)" wouldn't be entirely accurate.

Here's the main problem with this solution: How does one determine if a certain representation of a deity is unique enough to warrant its own page, versus being part of the general page? How is one interpretation of Satan, or Hades, or Zeus, more "page-worthy" than another?

As far as I am aware, the solution to the "One character, one page" rule has always been to just create sections for individual interpretations of that character. It's the same for Dante, who has the DMC and DmC versions both occupying the same space (and engaging in an eternal edit war for the header image). It's natural that some interpretations will have more description than others. Some interpretations are just more prominent. While we're on the subject, the Amaterasu page (Okami wolf) should honestly be combined with the Amaterasu page (Deity and oft-recurring SMT figure) because the Capcom character is a wolf interpretation of the sun goddess, but there's a complication there in that apparently the Okami character page has a canine-related quest attached to it, so no, it can't be deleted. And there would probably be a constant edit war for the header image of that page regardless, because people can't ever agree on that in any context, whether it be Dante, Satan, or someone else that's been interpreted in more than one way.

#46 Posted by Praxis (261 posts) -

@Hailinel: I'm not suggesting we open the floodgates or anything, but there has to be some room for exceptions when the case can be made. Amaterasu may be a sun goddess, but she is also a dog with a calligraphy brush. The main character of Darksiders II also seems distinct enough from general depictions of Death to warrant having his own page, although I will concede that the distinction between Death and Pale Rider is pretty tenuous. One has a horse, I guess?

#47 Posted by Eirikr (1009 posts) -

Aw man, I don't have time to get into this right now. Give me a few hours!

#48 Posted by Eirikr (1009 posts) -

One of my favorite parts of Giant Bomb's wiki over other wikis is that you can go hog wild with every depiction of a deity/mythological character across video games, rather than just limiting it to one series. Sometimes though, the lines get crossed or blurred and it's confusing how to properly categorize a character.

Take for example Odin and Shiva. Odin is of course the Norse god of wisdom, Shiva the Hindu god of destruction. They've both appeared in tons of video games that have taken their concepts and made either derived appearances or wholly original ones. Final Fantasy is what I'm thinking here. Final Fantasy's Shiva is a blueish ice goddess and is quite far removed from her original namesake, so the two of them should obviously get different pages.

Odin, however, is a little more difficult. Final Fantasy's Odin is generally a knight/warrior atop a multi-legged steed whose special move can cut enemies in half. While the Norse Odin isn't associated with slicing dudes in twain with Japanese-named specials, he is with everything else, so I generally think Final Fantasy's Odin, while otherwise usually tied to original stories far removed from Norse myth, is similar enough to warrant inclusion on the main Odin page. He is unmistakably supposed to be derived from the Norse god, while it's harder to make that argument for Final Fantasy's Shiva. Final Fantasy is rife with tons more examples like these.

Likewise, God of War's Zeus is also undoubtedly just supposed to be the original Greek god. And , yes, while the Pale Rider is Death (i.e., one of many Death personifications), it's a very specific interpretation of him far different than the typical Grim Reaper type. On that topic, something I don't understand is why there is a general Death page and also one for Castlevania's Death, when both are exactly the same! Expounding on this, we don't have separate character pages for the Dracula of Castlevania and the I guess more typical Bela Lugosi Dracula that's in Drac's Night Out. Though Castlevania Dracula has a far different story now than his Stoker-influenced origins, he's still ultimately a reflection of the standard Dracula mold.

But we are getting all over the place here. While Satan is decided, I want to get back to YHVH, as that's another contentious page.

The short of it is that while yes, YHVH is the name of the deity otherwise referred to as "God," I think they should both stay as-is. The God page is a much needed neutral conception of the deity, or, slightly reworded, a much needed generic conception of the Western character of "deity." The YHVH page is a very specific definition of the Judeo-Christian god as he first appeared out of the Semitic pantheon thousands of years ago and is quite a different character than the generic bearded guy who floats on clouds and can possibly inhabit Dragon Quest VII towns.

So you may ask me, didn't I make a point earlier in this thread about how Satan, too, has changed over time as evidence why there is no difference between Shin Megami Tensei Satan and "real" Satan? I certainly did. So how am I not contradicting myself? Well, Satan has indeed evolved so much that he changed his name--to Lucifer. Without really going too far into it, Lucifer is in many ways a distinct "update" of Satan with more modern Christian origins, specifically of that of a fallen angel cast from heaven who would become the lord of Hell and demons.

So think of it this way: "Satan" is to "Lucifer" as "YHVH" is to "God."

#49 Posted by Praxis (261 posts) -

Honestly, this whole discussion just illustrates how far behind the Comic Vine database Giant Bomb is in some respects. On CV, you have the concept of "Public Domain" characters that are used by a variety of different comic creators in a number of contexts. Rather than forcing people to shove every incarnation of a character onto this public domain page, however, they allow separate pages to be created that are flagged to specific publishers. Giant Bomb needs to adopt a system like this at some point, because shoehorning Disney's Hades, God of War's Hades, and Kid Icarus' Hades onto a single page is not only inadequate, it's kind of silly.

#50 Posted by Hailinel (25179 posts) -

@Praxis said:

Honestly, this whole discussion just illustrates how far behind the Comic Vine database Giant Bomb is in some respects. On CV, you have the concept of "Public Domain" characters that are used by a variety of different comic creators in a number of contexts. Rather than forcing people to shove every incarnation of a character onto this public domain page, however, they allow separate pages to be created that are flagged to specific publishers. Giant Bomb needs to adopt a system like this at some point, because shoehorning Disney's Hades, God of War's Hades, and Kid Icarus' Hades onto a single page is not only inadequate, it's kind of silly.

I think that's really up to .