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#1 Posted by Hailinel (23685 posts) -

So in Left 4 Dead, there's apparently some bathroom graffiti-style message left behind by some guy named Chicago Ted, but Chicago Ted doesn't actually appear in the game in any visual or audio capacity. The message is just something that was left by someone at some point, and according tot the wiki page, he isn't referenced at all in Left 4 Dead 2 (despite the wiki page also attributing that game to him). The page then references a Seanbaby.com joke.

That can't seriously be enough for a character page, can it?

#2 Posted by natetodamax (19169 posts) -

The same goes for the Truckasaurus Rex page. It's mentioned once by Haggard in Bad Company but never appears anywhere in the game. I asked if it should be deleted a while ago and a mod told me that a reference is enough to warrant a page.

#3 Posted by Hailinel (23685 posts) -

@Voxel said:

The same goes for the Truckasaurus Rex page. It's mentioned once by Haggard in Bad Company but never appears anywhere in the game. I asked if it should be deleted a while ago and a mod told me that a reference is enough to warrant a page.

By what logic does that work?

#4 Posted by MikkaQ (10264 posts) -

No wiki editor is safe from Chicago Ted.

#5 Posted by Phatmac (5720 posts) -

No one is safe from Chicago Ted.

#6 Posted by Demoskinos (14520 posts) -

@Voxel: That is....dumb and just seems like a bloat to the wiki to have things that aren't even characters with wiki pages.

#7 Posted by Hailinel (23685 posts) -

Also, Claud Huggins is the same issue. Referenced in graffiti, but not an actual character.

#8 Posted by vstag (25 posts) -

Well he could end up in Left 4 dead 3 and if you start putting limits on what is needed to get a character page then it ends up with even more fighting on what is needed or not needed. Do they have to be in the game. Do they have to have spoken lines. What if there in the game, but you dont see there face or only hear them. Master Miller in MGS 1 was never in the game and never was untill that PSP game a year or two ago so should he have gotten a page before that even not ever being in the game. It just makes things simple this way.

#10 Posted by Hailinel (23685 posts) -

@SoothsayerGB said:

It's status as a meme alone, makes it worth a page.

No, it doesn't. Character pages are for characters, not memes.

@vstag said:

Well he could end up in Left 4 dead 3 and if you start putting limits on what is needed to get a character page then it ends up with even more fighting on what is needed or not needed.

That's a humongous if. If Valve makes L4D3, and he's still not in it, would you propose waiting to see if he's in L4D4?

#11 Posted by Demoskinos (14520 posts) -
@SoothsayerGB

It's status as a meme alone, makes it worth a page. Those are topics people search for from time to time and it may not be often. But when that one guy wants to know more about Chicago Ted there is a decent place for it. Instead of some dead near useless Gamespot thread.

I say keep it. It's the little things that make those weird little corners of the internet so much fun. Bloat is a none issue. It's a wiki for crying out loud.

Yeah its a wiki but that doesn't mean that any sort of random information needs its own page. That is exactly why there is an approval process and a 1000 wiki point limit before you cam make non approved posts. Jeff himself has complained about some of the bloat on the pages. With insane amounts of games being tied to the grass or earth pages.

Its a frivolous joke made by the creators of the game and doesn't need its own page. Making some sort of amendment to the main L4D2 page with a random facts section would be much more acceptable.
#12 Posted by ajamafalous (11813 posts) -

Wasn't there a Valve L4D comic where he was shown/given backstory or am I making that up?

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#13 Edited by Irvandus (2777 posts) -

This falls into a grey area for me. I have the issue of if we cut this, then we bring up the whole issue of if we don't see a character does that mean he doesn't exist. I vote we let this slide so we don't have to deal with the fallout. Also I didn't know bloat was an issue. What's wrong with having a lot of pages on a wiki? I don't want to sound like a jerk, I'm just curios.

#14 Posted by WilliamHenry (1200 posts) -

@Demoskinos said:

@Voxel: That is....dumb and just seems like a bloat to the wiki to have things that aren't even characters with wiki pages.

Who cares if the wiki is bloated? Is there some artificial limit to the amount of content/pages it can have?

#15 Posted by Hailinel (23685 posts) -

@Irvandus said:

This falls into a grey area for me. I have the issue of if we cut this, then we bring up the whole issue of if we don't see a character does that mean he doesn't exist. I vote we let this slide so we don't have to deal with the fallout. Also I didn't know bloat was an issue. What's wrong with having a lot of pages on a wiki? I don't want to sound like a jerk, I'm just curios.

This isn't about if the character does or does not exist. This is about the character actually being in the game or not. A simple graffiti reference or passing reference through dialogue regarding a character that may or may not exist is not the same as that character actually being in the game. As an example, Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance makes reference to a character named Lillia. Lillia is important to the story, in so far in that she is a figure that passed an important item onto the mother of the protagonist that eventually plays a major role in the story. However, Lillia is only referred to in dialogue and is never once seen or heard in the game. She is a character that exists in the game's universe (though she is long dead by the time the game begins), but she does not get a character page because she is never actually in the game herself.

#16 Posted by Irvandus (2777 posts) -

@Hailinel: I agree, maybe a mention on the main page for the game or something then.

#17 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5058 posts) -

@vstag said:

Well he could end up in Left 4 dead 3 and if you start putting limits on what is needed to get a character page then it ends up with even more fighting on what is needed or not needed. Do they have to be in the game. Do they have to have spoken lines. What if there in the game, but you dont see there face or only hear them. Master Miller in MGS 1 was never in the game and never was untill that PSP game a year or two ago so should he have gotten a page before that even not ever being in the game. It just makes things simple this way.

I believe Master Miller is a radio contact in Metal Gear 2.

#18 Posted by Hailinel (23685 posts) -

@SethPhotopoulos said:

@vstag said:

Well he could end up in Left 4 dead 3 and if you start putting limits on what is needed to get a character page then it ends up with even more fighting on what is needed or not needed. Do they have to be in the game. Do they have to have spoken lines. What if there in the game, but you dont see there face or only hear them. Master Miller in MGS 1 was never in the game and never was untill that PSP game a year or two ago so should he have gotten a page before that even not ever being in the game. It just makes things simple this way.

I believe Master Miller is a radio contact in Metal Gear 2.

He also appeared in Peace Walker. His "appearance" in Metal Gear Solid was an impersonation, but he does actually appear in other games.

#19 Edited by Mrsignerman44 (1100 posts) -

Chicago Ted is a living legend, how dare you remove him just because you haven't seen him. Do you want to delete Santa Claus as well? HMMM?!

we were fighting infected all across the square
the scent of their blood was in the air

a witch in the courtyard gave us quite a scare
and things only got worse from there

when a hunter grabbed bill and thrashed him in twain

francis was hung by a smoker as he howled in pain

zoey with her pistol and took careful aim
she fired 2 shots, but it was all in vain

just then, when all hope had been burned and bled
the infected all scream and turned and fled

clothed in a flannel shirt blue black and red
came an angel of Badass, named Chicago Ted

with his twin shotguns a blazing, he slaughtered that horde

till he got bored of that, and switched to his sword

his cap coated in blood, while us he ignored
for the thrill of the hunt was his own reward

now he was no chuck norris, dont get me wrong

but ted could do this crap all day long

the survivors lept up and fought along
but ted would do this work for a song

with corpses piled as high as can be
Ol' ted lit a smoke, and howled with glee

as he used his sword to carve knotches you see
into his belt, a thousand times 53

as a tank round the corner, we filled up with dread
but he just laughed an shook his head

with a powerful holler the wild savior said

"NO ZOMBIE IS SAFE FROM CHICAGO TED!"
#20 Posted by Canteu (2821 posts) -

I agree with this deletion request. It's not a character.

#21 Posted by adam1808 (1357 posts) -

How dare you suggest the removal of Chicago Ted?

#22 Posted by Bucketdeth (8003 posts) -

Chicago Ted is fucking pissed that you would suggest deleting him.

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#23 Edited by Tebbit (4447 posts) -

To be honest, I think the multiple references to him inside the fiction of the game warrant a page.

He is an unseen character in the Left 4 Dead universe. Many things about the backstory (and the storytelling in general) in the L4D universe is explained or referenced incidentally, this doesn't make them less relevant than details that you can see or hear.

So I say keep him.

#24 Posted by Hailinel (23685 posts) -

@adam1808 said:

How dare you suggest the removal of Chicago Ted?

@Bucketdeth said:

Chicago Ted is fucking pissed that you would suggest deleting him.

Do you guys actually have anything worthwhile to add to this argument?

#25 Posted by SethPhotopoulos (5058 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

@adam1808 said:

How dare you suggest the removal of Chicago Ted?

@Bucketdeth said:

Chicago Ted is fucking pissed that you would suggest deleting him.

Do you guys actually have anything worthwhile to add to this argument?

You are taking this shit seriously.

#26 Posted by Hailinel (23685 posts) -

@SethPhotopoulos said:

@Hailinel said:

@adam1808 said:

How dare you suggest the removal of Chicago Ted?

@Bucketdeth said:

Chicago Ted is fucking pissed that you would suggest deleting him.

Do you guys actually have anything worthwhile to add to this argument?

You are taking this shit seriously.

Well, it's a valid question.

#27 Posted by Praxis (248 posts) -

From the Wiki FAQ:

...characters are named specifically, and display unique gameplay or personality traits to warrant a page.

I think the second part is what we should be focusing on here. I don't think the fact that he doesn't physically appear is really important. Doug Rattman never appears in Portal or Portal 2, but his presence within the game world is implied and his wall writings do impart some measure of insight into his activities and state of mind. The question is whether or not Chicago Ted displays any "unique gameplay or personality traits." I don't really have enough knowledge of the L4D games to answer that question, but if all that exists of Chicago Ted is a single message that claims zombies aren't safe from him, this page should probably be deleted.

#28 Posted by Kraznor (1578 posts) -

I just remember the Bombcast had some conversation about Chicago Ted and how Valve adds so much personality to their games via the environments. This likely prompted someone to make the page, but yeah, it really should be deleted. Its a fun little part of the game, but not a character.

#29 Edited by Canteu (2821 posts) -

@SethPhotopoulos: He's got 146k wiki points, of course he's serious.

#30 Edited by ThatFrood (3373 posts) -

It's true, the only thing in the game that imparts any character on Chicago Ted is that one piece of graffiti.
But it's also true that Chicago Ted is a name that is immediately recognized by fans of L4D. With whole fanfictions and the like surrounding him. 
I am not making an argument that fanfiction alone can elevate an unimportant detail into wiki-worthy material. 
 
I am however saying that there are people who wonder who Chicago Ted is. There are people who will see a reference to him in a L4D thread and wonder who Chicago Ted is. To them he is a character in the game and they will go to google to find out who he is. I don't see why Giantbomb is an innapropriate place to house that information. 
Worthy of a character page? I don't know. A concept page? I don't know. It's true, again, the only thing in the actual game that speaks about Chicago Ted is that one piece of graffiti. But it's also entirely true that Chicago Ted is considered by the Left 4 Dead community to be an indelible entity within that zombie apocalypse. Ridiculous? Maybe. But just because it's ridiculous that people have chosen to assign so much importance to a piece of graffiti doesn't make it any less important. 
 
The point of the wiki is to help people find information about gaming. Among fans of Left 4 Dead, Chicago Ted is a known and recognized actor in the universe. People will search his name to find out more about him, and a character page seems like the best place to put that information.

#31 Posted by Hailinel (23685 posts) -

@ThatFrood: Or they could just read some trivia regarding him on the Left 4 Dead page. It would impart the same information as anything that could possibly be laid out on what is currently an undeserved character page.

#32 Posted by adam1808 (1357 posts) -
@Hailinel: Rattman is a character and he has a page. He's no more or less of game character than Chicago Ted. Valve characterise people without having to hire a voice-actor or make a character model.
#33 Posted by Hailinel (23685 posts) -

@adam1808 said:

@Hailinel: Rattman is a character and he has a page. He's no more or less of game character than Chicago Ted. Valve characterise people without having to hire a voice-actor or make a character model.

Graffiti isn't a character. It isn't even proof of a character's existence. For all we know, "Chicago Ted" is actually someone completely different pulling a "Killroy was here."

#34 Posted by MEATBALL (3017 posts) -

With L4D's approach to storytelling Chicago Ted almost is a character. >_>

Flimsy argument, yes, and here's another (flimsy) one - it would suck if I came to what is supposed to be the best videogame wiki on the internet and couldn't find an entry for Chicago Ted when searching. This obviously speaks for a need for some other sort of category, I suppose, but it seems to me that a character page is worthwhile in the meantime?

#35 Posted by Hailinel (23685 posts) -

@MEATBALL said:

With L4D's approach to storytelling Chicago Ted almost is a character. >_>

Flimsy argument, yes, and here's another (flimsy) one - it would suck if I came to what is supposed to be the best videogame wiki on the internet and couldn't find an entry for Chicago Ted when searching. This obviously speaks for a need for some other sort of category, I suppose, but it seems to me that a character page is worthwhile in the meantime?

Why would you not look at the Left 4 Dead page?

#36 Posted by Demoskinos (14520 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

@MEATBALL said:

With L4D's approach to storytelling Chicago Ted almost is a character. >_>

Flimsy argument, yes, and here's another (flimsy) one - it would suck if I came to what is supposed to be the best videogame wiki on the internet and couldn't find an entry for Chicago Ted when searching. This obviously speaks for a need for some other sort of category, I suppose, but it seems to me that a character page is worthwhile in the meantime?

Why would you not look at the Left 4 Dead page?

Exactly. Adding a mention of Chicago Ted onto the main L4D2 page would be a much better use of space overall.

#37 Posted by bobafettjm (1387 posts) -

I also think that maybe just adding some information on the main game page would be better suited. Maybe if this character was referenced multiple times with some sort of story going on it could have a page, but one blurb from some graffiti on the wall doesn't seem enough to warrant a character page.

Online
#38 Posted by Fallen189 (4931 posts) -

Change him to a concept then. It helps this guy who hates the fact there's a page for "something that's not real", and it keeps the page here. Character pages are for characters, but concept pages encompass a large variety of things, one of which can include the concept of a character existing. Concepts  are something derived from a notion, and the fact that he "exists" in several areas in the L4D games should suffice

#39 Posted by Hailinel (23685 posts) -

@Fallen189 said:

Change him to a concept then. It helps this guy who hates the fact there's a page for "something that's not real", and it keeps the page here. Character pages are for characters, but concept pages encompass a large variety of things, one of which can include the concept of a character existing. Concepts are something derived from a notion, and the fact that he "exists" in several areas in the L4D games should suffice

That's actually not how concepts work.

#40 Posted by StarvingGamer (7918 posts) -

@Hailinel: At this point you should just start adding character pages for anything ever mentioned by name in any game ever.

Fuck, add a character page for The Cake since a lot of people here are arguing that Chicago Ted's memetic nature alone warrants him a page.

That'll teach 'em!

#41 Posted by Ravenlight (8040 posts) -

@Hailinel said:

Or they could just read some trivia regarding him on the Left 4 Dead page. It would impart the same information as anything that could possibly be laid out on what is currently an undeserved character page.

@bobafettjm said:

I also think that maybe just adding some information on the main game page would be better suited. Maybe if this character was referenced multiple times with some sort of story going on it could have a page, but one blurb from some graffiti on the wall doesn't seem enough to warrant a character page.

This seems like the best way to handle the situation. While I think that the Chicago Ted page is great in concept, I feel that the argument for it to be appended to the game page is stronger for the one to let it stand on its own.

#42 Posted by Fallen189 (4931 posts) -
@Hailinel said:

@Fallen189 said:

Change him to a concept then. It helps this guy who hates the fact there's a page for "something that's not real", and it keeps the page here. Character pages are for characters, but concept pages encompass a large variety of things, one of which can include the concept of a character existing. Concepts are something derived from a notion, and the fact that he "exists" in several areas in the L4D games should suffice

That's actually not how concepts work.

Why
#43 Posted by Jeff (3400 posts) -

Definitely not a character. Chicago Ted content should either live on the main game page, or, if someone really wants to make a strong case for it (and it'd have to be pretty strong), there might be room for this as a concept page.

Staff
#44 Edited by Hero_Swe (1110 posts) -

A wiki is there for information, the more information the better. No wiki can ever be "bloated.". Atleast IMO.

Edit: Talk about bad timing for my reply, making a case for it after the proverbial Judge Dredd has said his word :P

#45 Posted by Hailinel (23685 posts) -

@Fallen189 said:

@Hailinel said:

@Fallen189 said:

Change him to a concept then. It helps this guy who hates the fact there's a page for "something that's not real", and it keeps the page here. Character pages are for characters, but concept pages encompass a large variety of things, one of which can include the concept of a character existing. Concepts are something derived from a notion, and the fact that he "exists" in several areas in the L4D games should suffice

That's actually not how concepts work.

Why

Because

In all seriousness though, Jeff has just made his ruling on this (see above). Of course, you could try making a really good argument for your case.

#46 Posted by CL60 (16906 posts) -
@Hero_Swe

A wiki is there for information, the more information the better. No wiki can ever be "bloated.". Atleast IMO.

Edit: Talk about bad timing for my reply, making a case for it after the proverbial Judge Dredd has said his word :P

Yeah. I honestly don't see why people have such issues with stuff like this. The more information on the wiki, the better IMO.
#47 Edited by Yummylee (21208 posts) -

@Jeff said:

Definitely not a character. Chicago Ted content should either live on the main game page, or, if someone really wants to make a strong case for it (and it'd have to be pretty strong), there might be room for this as a concept page.

Well there's already the unseen recurring character concept page for just such a character anyway, right? Setting aside the idea that someone place him in a trivia segment or something, I imagine someone could also even write up a list of games giving a brief outlier about such characters, including Chicago Ted. Kinda like the meme page.

#48 Posted by Fallen189 (4931 posts) -
@Hailinel said:

@Fallen189 said:

@Hailinel said:

@Fallen189 said:

Change him to a concept then. It helps this guy who hates the fact there's a page for "something that's not real", and it keeps the page here. Character pages are for characters, but concept pages encompass a large variety of things, one of which can include the concept of a character existing. Concepts are something derived from a notion, and the fact that he "exists" in several areas in the L4D games should suffice

That's actually not how concepts work.

Why

Because

In all seriousness though, Jeff has just made his ruling on this (see above). Of course, you could try making a really good argument for your case.

I dont really care. Its unusual that you wont make a case for why it cant be a concept though. Oh well, you can use staff interjection as a scapegoat, I guess.
#49 Posted by ZombiePie (5561 posts) -

Pages have been flagged for deletion. If a user feels strongly enough about the issue adding "Chicago Ted" as a concept page would be allowed. 

Moderator