#1 Edited by AlexMarra (310 posts) -
#2 Edited by iAmJohn (6108 posts) -

There is only one Mew and one Mewtwo.  I'd argue that they should instead only have a character page. :\ 
  
At the very least, though, Mewtwo warrants both a character page and a concept page on account of Melee.

#3 Posted by weegieanawrench (1935 posts) -

Yeah, character over concept page.

#4 Edited by Rallier (1739 posts) -
@AlexMarra said:

" I agree that they should both have character pages, but every other Pokemon on this site has a concept page so what the hell. "

Well Mew and Mewtwo are actually not a race unlike the other pokemon. There is only one unique Mew and one unique Mewtwo in the pokemon universe. The concept pages for both of these should go.
#5 Posted by TheLegendofLuke (563 posts) -
@Rallier said:
" @AlexMarra said:

" I agree that they should both have character pages, but every other Pokemon on this site has a concept page so what the hell. "

Well Mew and Mewtwo are actually not a race unlike the other pokemon. There is only one unique Mew and one unique Mewtwo in the pokemin universe. The concept pages for both of these should go. "
Then explain how I had 6 Mews on Pokémon blue... : D
#6 Posted by ThePaleKing (613 posts) -
@TheLegendofLuke: Because you violated the law, criminal scum. 
#7 Posted by Rallier (1739 posts) -
@TheLegendofLuke: Well you ARE a legend for a reason.
#8 Posted by AlwaysAngry (2924 posts) -

They should both have a character page. They shouldn't have a concept page.

#9 Posted by Video_Game_King (36000 posts) -

Character over concept. Here's why, and I consider it definitive:
 
 

#10 Posted by Hamz (6846 posts) -

Neither the Mew or Mewtwo CONCEPT pages can be deleted. So they'll just have to stay for now.
 
It seems like the argument of character over concept page makes sense here. So check one on deleting the concept pages for both!

#11 Posted by Marino (4597 posts) -

Check two!

Staff
#12 Posted by Icemael (6312 posts) -

Mew should have both a concept page (for the species) and a character page (for the specific Mew appearing in the movie). Mewtwo, however, should only have a character page, since there's only one of him.

#13 Posted by Guided_By_Tigers (8061 posts) -
@Marino:  Mew is a species....concept page is fine.
#14 Edited by jakob187 (21642 posts) -

Can I make a formal request to just delete all Pokemon that aren't named "Squirtle"?  I mean, he's the only REAL Pokemon. 
 
As for this, I don't know enough about the Pokemon universe to add much worthwhile...but I do know a fair amount.  I also remember a fair amount about taxonomic ranks from my biology classes in high school.  Specifically, I remember that a species is commonly defined as a GROUP of interbreeding organisms. 
 
If there are more than one Mew, then that would mean that there is a Mew species.  If Mewtwo falls into the same classification as Mew, then it means that you more than likely have a genus of Mew rather than a species, and in turn, they would both be featured on the same concept page. 
 
However, if there is only one Mew in existence and only one Mewtwo in existence, then that would mean that there is no species.  That would be like if a dodo bird were still alive today, but it's only one dodo bird.  There would be no species at that point, as he's the only one.  It sucks, but it's the way it goes.
 
There.  I just got all scientific up in this bitch!

#15 Posted by Sumbog (481 posts) -

Mew is a species, which allows it to have a concept page and Mewtwo is a genetic experiment there by becoming a concept.

#16 Posted by LordAndrew (14424 posts) -
@AlexMarra said:
" Oh God, what have I done?! "
We've handled far more complicated cases before. We're used to it! 
 
Mew used to be a species, but during the time that the Pokémon games take place there is only one Mew left, Mew. Not much of a species at this point.
#17 Posted by PureRok (4235 posts) -
@Sumbog said:
" Mew is a species, which allows it to have a concept page and Mewtwo is a genetic experiment there by becoming a concept. "
I think you meant Mewtwo is a character. There is only one of him.
#18 Posted by Guided_By_Tigers (8061 posts) -
@jakob187 said:

" Can I make a formal request to just delete all Pokemon that aren't named "Squirtle"?  I mean, he's the only REAL Pokemon.  As for this, I don't know enough about the Pokemon universe to add much worthwhile...but I do know a fair amount.  I also remember a fair amount about taxonomic ranks from my biology classes in high school.  Specifically, I remember that a species is commonly defined as a GROUP of interbreeding organisms.  If there are more than one Mew, then that would mean that there is a Mew species.  If Mewtwo falls into the same classification as Mew, then it means that you more than likely have a genus of Mew rather than a species, and in turn, they would both be featured on the same concept page.  However, if there is only one Mew in existence and only one Mewtwo in existence, then that would mean that there is no species.  That would be like if a dodo bird were still alive today, but it's only one dodo bird.  There would be no species at that point, as he's the only one.  It sucks, but it's the way it goes. There.  I just got all scientific up in this bitch! "

If there was one Dodo bird alive today that would mean it would be the last surviving member of its species.....just like the Geochelone nigra abingdoni is the last surviving member of its subspecies......you can't say that just because there is only one left that it is no longer a species....it was a species before and will continue to be a species until it becomes extinct.
#19 Posted by Kowbrainz (923 posts) -
@Hamz said:
" Neither the Mew or Mewtwo CONCEPT pages can be deleted. So they'll just have to stay for now.  It seems like the argument of character over concept page makes sense here. So check one on deleting the concept pages for both! "
They aren't the only Pokemon who are unique in the anime, though... there's a new set of unique legendaries every generation. Making double pages each time (while keeping the content on both pages the same) seems silly.
#20 Posted by iAmJohn (6108 posts) -
@Unknown_Pleasures said:
" If there was one Dodo bird alive today that would mean it would be the last surviving member of its species.....just like the Geochelone nigra abingdoni is the last surviving member of its subspecies......you can't say that just because there is only one left that it is no longer a species....it was a species before and will continue to be a species until it becomes extinct. "
The games never give any indication as to whether or not there is more than one.  In fact, a lot of the ancillary media (read: the show and the movies surrounding Mew) seem to imply that there has only ever been one Mew that has survived throughout time.  And Mewtwo is not a species, as it is a genetically-engineered clone of Mew based off its DNA.  I guess if you wanted to get technical you could argue that Mewtwo is another entry in the Mew species, having been based off the same DNA, but there's still no justification for a Mewtwo concept page.
#21 Posted by Icemael (6312 posts) -
@iAmJohn said:
" @Unknown_Pleasures said:
" If there was one Dodo bird alive today that would mean it would be the last surviving member of its species.....just like the Geochelone nigra abingdoni is the last surviving member of its subspecies......you can't say that just because there is only one left that it is no longer a species....it was a species before and will continue to be a species until it becomes extinct. "
The games never give any indication as to whether or not there is more than one.  In fact, a lot of the ancillary media (read: the show and the movies surrounding Mew) seem to imply that there has only ever been one Mew that has survived throughout time.  And Mewtwo is not a species, as it is a genetically-engineered clone of Mew based off its DNA.  I guess if you wanted to get technical you could argue that Mewtwo is another entry in the Mew species, having been based off the same DNA, but there's still no justification for a Mewtwo concept page. "
But Mew is the ancestor of all Pokemon, which implies that there were once (and maybe still are) more than one.
#22 Posted by LordAndrew (14424 posts) -

If we have to speculate about whether more than one Mew ever existed, it seems to me that there wouldn't be much we could write about this potentially non-existent species. Just put the important stuff on the character page. Of course, if you want to convince me that Mewtwo is a Mew as well, go ahead and convince me. :)

#23 Edited by jakob187 (21642 posts) -
@Unknown_Pleasures: Scientifically, you can say that it's the end of a species.  Again, a species is a GROUP, not singular.  As a matter of fact, you mention that it's a subspecies...but even subspecies can never be singular.  It's just not the way they are classified.
 
If there is only one of the animal or previous "species" left, it is merely an organism.  Plain and simple.  There is no species, no subspecies, no genus, no family, no kingdom - nothing.  It's actually kind of sad to think about it like that, but it's the ways of the world.  You can't even give it a binomial name if it's singular.  The last human on Earth would not be considered "Homo sapien", as Homo sapien is a GROUP of humans.  It's a species.
#24 Posted by Icemael (6312 posts) -
@jakob187 said:
" @Unknown_Pleasures: Scientifically, you can say that it's the end of a species.  Again, a species is a GROUP, not singular.  As a matter of fact, you mention that it's a subspecies...but even subspecies can never be singular.  It's just not the way they are classified.
 
If there is only one of the animal or previous "species" left, it is merely an organism.  Plain and simple.  There is no species, no subspecies, no genus, no family, no kingdom - nothing.  It's actually kind of sad to think about it like that, but it's the ways of the world.  You can't even give it a binomial name if it's singular.  The last human on Earth would not be considered "Homo sapien", as Homo sapien is a GROUP of humans.  It's a species. "
If there's only one member of a species left, it's still a member of that species. A dead species is still a species, only... well, dead. Just try telling a biologist that Tyrannosaurus Rex doesn't qualify as a species because they're all dead, and see what happens.
 
If there's only ever been one organism of that kind, however, it's not a species. 
 
Anyway, Mew's Pokédex entry classifies it as a "New Species" Pokemon. So it's a species and, as such, should have a concept page.
#25 Posted by Romination (2775 posts) -

Well, if this happens, there's going to be a lot more Pokemon to have this debate over. The legendaries, for example, are all the only one and that's why they're so rare. 6 of them are basically gods, even.

#26 Edited by jakob187 (21642 posts) -
@Icemael: For some reason, I doubt that the Pokemon users are looking at any form of classification hierarchy when it comes to using the word "species". 
 
Also, when bringing up Tyrannosaurus Rex, you are talking about a species because none are living anymore.  In turn, it IS a dead species.  If one T. Rex was still alive, it would not have a species.  It would simply be an organism. 
 
That's the thing people are missing in this:  a species HAS to be a group, either alive or dead.  Binomial names typically aren't used for singulars, but those rules have loosened over many years in order to make the species problem a little easier to handle. 
 
I'm not just spouting off my own opinion here - I'm talking about a debate that has existed for a long long long time.  There are many people who think that this idea that a singular organism has no species is wrong, but until the scientific classification of a species allows singular entities, a species is a group - living or dead. 
 
The only reason I even bring all this up is solely to say that Mew and Mewtwo are not a part of a species, and I see that you agree with that.  Mewtwo is genetically engineered, so there's no species there.  He's not even a "natural" being in any way.  Mew is the origin of the entire Pokemon universe.  Therefore, if Mew has a species, then it means God has a species has well...  lol
#27 Edited by JeffGoldblum (3700 posts) -
@jakob187 said:

" Can I make a formal request to just delete all Pokemon that aren't named "Squirtle"?  I mean, he's the only REAL Pokemon.  As for this, I don't know enough about the Pokemon universe to add much worthwhile...but I do know a fair amount.  I also remember a fair amount about taxonomic ranks from my biology classes in high school.  Specifically, I remember that a species is commonly defined as a GROUP of interbreeding organisms.  If there are more than one Mew, then that would mean that there is a Mew species.  If Mewtwo falls into the same classification as Mew, then it means that you more than likely have a genus of Mew rather than a species, and in turn, they would both be featured on the same concept page.  However, if there is only one Mew in existence and only one Mewtwo in existence, then that would mean that there is no species.  That would be like if a dodo bird were still alive today, but it's only one dodo bird.  There would be no species at that point, as he's the only one.  It sucks, but it's the way it goes. There.  I just got all scientific up in this bitch! "

I'm about to get really nerdy here about Pokemon. Mewtwo is a completely artificial creation of Team Rocket. They only used Mew as a blueprint and beefed him up to make Mewtwo, an intelligent and self-aware pokemon, that I would assume(because of his artificial and enhanced nature) cannot breed with regular Mew. Now according to the anime Mew is an extinct pokemon, suggesting that it was once an entire species. The Mew in the games and movies seems to be a relic of this extinct race. So I say that Mew deserves a concept and character page, but Mewtwo only needs a character page.
#28 Posted by jakob187 (21642 posts) -
@JeffGoldblum: Whether Mew is considered an extinct Pokemon or not doesn't mean there is a species of Mew.  Something can go extinct whether it's singular or a species/genus/phylum/kingdom/family/whatever.   
If it's the only Mew that has ever been in existence, that means there was no species.  It was simply an organism. 
 
Here, let's put it in the simplest formula possible for anyone to understand: 
 
Species = Group 
Organism = Singular 
#29 Edited by Icemael (6312 posts) -
@jakob187 said:

"I'm not just spouting off my own opinion here - I'm talking about a debate that has existed for a long long long time.  There are many people who think that this idea that a singular organism has no species is wrong, but until the scientific classification of a species allows singular entities, a species is a group - living or dead."

By that criteria, dead humans would be a different species from living humans. Try telling someone that -- scientist or not -- and they'd laugh at you.
 
No, the last surviving member of a species is very much part of that species. While it's the only one living, it's still part of a group of similar organisms; whether or not the other members of that group are alive or dead, sick or healthy, living in the middle of the Universe or at its fringe, makes no difference whatsoever. 
 
@jakob187 said:

" @Icemael: For some reason, I doubt that the Pokemon users are looking at any form of classification hierarchy when it comes to using the word "species""

So do I, but it's all we've got. All else we've got are implications and probabilities that there are or aren't (or have or haven't) been more than one Mew; the Pokédex entry is the one source that clearly states that hey, this is the way it is, and it's a "New Species". Maybe the writers didn't mean for it to be interpreted as "species" in the scientific sense, but we can't speculate over that, or next we'll be arguing over whether Leon S. Kennedy is really a character, or just a remote-controlled robot -- because maybe the developers intended for us to interpret it that way -- who should have an "object" page, but not a "character" page.
#30 Posted by JeffGoldblum (3700 posts) -
@jakob187 said:
" @JeffGoldblum: Whether Mew is considered an extinct Pokemon or not doesn't mean there is a species of Mew.  Something can go extinct whether it's singular or a species/genus/phylum/kingdom/family/whatever.   If it's the only Mew that has ever been in existence, that means there was no species.  It was simply an organism.  Here, let's put it in the simplest formula possible for anyone to understand:  Species = Group Organism = Singular  "
I meant that Mew was at one point an entire species. Mews used to populate the world of pokemon just like squirtle or geodude. Then they went extinct and now there is only one left. That Mew is Mew the character.
#31 Posted by iAmJohn (6108 posts) -
@JeffGoldblum said:
" I'm about to get really nerdy here about Pokemon. Mewtwo is a completely artificial creation of Team Rocket. They only used Mew as a blueprint and beefed him up to make Mewtwo, an intelligent and self-aware pokemon, that I would assume(because of his artificial and enhanced nature) cannot breed with regular Mew. Now according to the anime Mew is an extinct pokemon, suggesting that it was once an entire species. The Mew in the games and movies seems to be a relic of this extinct race. So I say that Mew deserves a concept and character page, but Mewtwo only needs a character page. "
I think this settles it.
#32 Posted by jakob187 (21642 posts) -
@Icemael: ...and now we meet the "species problem".  There are plenty of people that see it the same way that you do, but the way you see it also lacks definition.  If we were to consider one single organism a species, then it would completely unravel the hierarchy of classification. 
 
I merely felt the need to offer the scientific approach of "species" in order to resolve whether Mew and Mewtwo are truly a species, and that's all.  The tete-a-tete has been good, but it's at the point where there's no more headway in trying to scientifically explain whether concept pages should exist or not. 
 
Personally, Mew and Mewtwo shouldn't have concept pages.  In the general scheme of things, if JeffGoldblum and Icemael say that the Pokedex specifically says "species" when referring to either one of them, then that would mean that the developers and creators of Pokemon are saying that it's a species. 
 
At the same time, I'm automatically assuming that a Pokemon has to be a species in order to be legitimately considered a concept. 
 
And this, folks, is why I couldn't be a moderator.  = D
#33 Posted by Marino (4597 posts) -

Okay, the page has been UNmarked for deletion.  Someone needs to add the associations/games back to the page though.  And someone, JeffGoldblum or otherwise, probably needs to better explain on the concept page why its there.

Staff
#34 Posted by discost3w (152 posts) -

Sweet, there is some pokemon drama going on

#35 Posted by ZombiePie (5583 posts) -

Your guy's knowledge of Pokemons...Jesus Christ is crazy...

Moderator
#36 Posted by iAmJohn (6108 posts) -

This is probably the most interesting debate we've had in a while.  I'm impressed, guys.

#37 Edited by Icemael (6312 posts) -
@jakob187 said:

" @Icemael: ...and now we meet the "species problem".  There are plenty of people that see it the same way that you do, but the way you see it also lacks definition.  If we were to consider one single organism a species, then it would completely unravel the hierarchy of classification."

You're missing the point. I'm not saying that the last living member of a species is a species. I'm saying that it's part of a species. It's the only one living, but what does that matter? I'm the only homo sapiens with my exact genetic structure. Hitler is the only homo sapiens who was Germany's leader during WWII. Does that make us separate from homo sapiens as a species? No! And neither does being the only one still living.

If we treat "being of the same state -- either alive or dead -- as the rest of the species" as a criteria for being part of a species, that would mean organisms change species when they die. Don't you see how utterly absurd that is? As long as an organism exists, and there are other such organisms, it's part of a species. The state of that specific organism in relation to the rest of the species does in no way affect its status as a member of it.
#38 Posted by Rallier (1739 posts) -

Oh my this conversation sure took quite an odd turn. 
 
I see what you guys are going for but we should keep in mind that we are talking about a concept pages on GIantbomb and not wikipedia.

#39 Posted by Shadow (4977 posts) -

They're different and are both characters and concepts.

#40 Edited by LordAndrew (14424 posts) -
@Rallier: If we were discussing this on Wikipedia, the result would be to merge all Pokémon into a single page. :P 
 
Hm... You know, that would solve our Mew problems. ;)
#41 Posted by Rallier (1739 posts) -
@LordAndrew: I think you are on to something here